Dreamy Feeling Reality- Check ?

I was planning to post a long thread, but decided it´s best to try it for myself instead of just posting dry theory, even if it is funny to speculate and find one actually abused logic and knowledge :). Maybe i will do that later in a later post in this thread, if my enthusiasm doesn´t decline.

Anyway, my question, my working hypothesis is: is the dreamy feeling a good reality-check? ( i am really challenging the concept that dreams feel like WL, although many people already swear they are completely different )

I have been thinking about this since i read an interview with a ex-DV member, Line Salvesen ( Luminous ) who claims to have cca. 1500 lucids per year because she recognizes this dreamy feeling. She has LDs since her childhood nightmares, so one must be cautious - we have not this background. I have also chatted with her, and that´s all she has to say :roll: ( may be enough )


Personally, many times i feel this dreamy feeling but fail to go further and actually become lucid. And, in many times i do become lucid, i think there is some dreamy feeling that gets me to check my state.

I wonder if many induction techniques, like Tholey's, RCing, MILD, share a common sensitizing effect to this dreamy feeling. Wouldn't this explain to some degree why some people get very good at LDing, almost natural LDers, after "some" practice ?

For instance, in Tholey combined technique, both in the original and the modified ( by Laberge) versions, there is a step which consists in a simulation:

Tholey 's method:

1. Ask yourself, "Am I dreaming or not?" at least five to ten times
a day.
2. At the same time, try to imagine intensely that you are in a
dream, that everything you perceive, including your own body, is
merely a dream.

[...] [....]

Tholey´s method ( modified, EWOLD ):

[...] [...]

3. Imagine yourself dreaming
After having satisfied yourself that you’re awake, tell yourself, “Okay, I’m not dreaming, now. But if I
were, what would it be like?” Imagine as vividly as possible that you are dreaming. Intently imagine that
what you are perceiving (hearing, feeling, smelling, or seeing) is a dream: the people, trees, sunshine, sky
and earth, and yourself—all a dream. Observe your environment carefully for your target dreamsigns from
chapter 2. Imagine what it would be like if a dreamsign from your target category were present.
As soon as you are able to vividly experience yourself as if in a dream, tell yourself, “’The next time I’m
dreaming, I will remember to recognize that I’m dreaming.”

[...] [...]

Oh, and some more interesting quotes:

Gackenbach's Control your dreams

«Two French scientists who
worked with Tholey's technique found that even those participants
who dropped out of their study often obtained good results.»

Laberge's EWOLD:

«Practice in attaining the critical-reflective frame of mind is only necessary in the beginning phase, which may last a
number of months. Later on, lucid dreams will occur even if the subject has not asked himself the critical
question during the day. The frequency of lucid dreams then depends to a large extent on the will of the
subject. Most subjects who consistently follow the above advice experience at least one lucid dream every night.»


So, i ask, also partly influenced by the recently debated blink/breath RC and by Hukif ' s gravity RC, if this RC can become kind of automatic, second nature with practice? That would be a good thing :)

Probably i have extended my post more than i wanted..

Does this make any sense :D ? Do you think that dreamy feeling stuff is a good thing to explore directly ?
( PS: How can we achieve 1500 lucids per year, then ? :? )

It has worked well for me in the past, if I understand you correctly. For many years I was obsessed with simply examining my surroundings for unstable dream signals and the like; that "dream feeling" you speak of. After only three weeks or so I was having lucids almost nightly; the down side is that I hit a plateau. The problem was that not all of these dreams were lucid because my memory was still not operating properly; sometimes it kicked right in, but not always. As I studied my dreams and found out through time exactly what triggered "full lucidity" for me I realized that while the dream environment was an excellent reality check, there was still further to go.

If you incorporate self-awareness and memory checks this could lead to great satisfaction in the longer term. Just to say, parenthetically, one could also throw in the "confidence" argument here as well. I have found that these together with intention before sleep generates pretty amazing results over time. The "reality check moments" are very long at first, depending of course how much you put into them, but the effort is worth it.

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As I studied my dreams and found out through time exactly what triggered "full lucidity" for me I realized that while the dream environment was an excellent reality check, there was still further to go

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Hmm, so awareness of the dream environment may be great, but still there's some further potential to be explored ? I couldn' t agree more, and i think you sum your and my thoughts pretty well in the next quote...

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If you incorporate self-awareness and memory checks this could lead to great satisfaction in the longer term

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And here it is. Of course many good guys have already talked about this. But i feel each one of us must figure out what that is and choose his or her approach. So, in sum i would like to test if a good self awareness practice can be done by attending to body height and movements ( Hukif's gravity RC and WakingNomad' s breath/blink RC) and by attending to the feelings that may be typical of dreams. Memory checks would be included in this later subjective feeling, and so they would be practiced by attending to feelings. I would be attending to interoceptive and proprioceptive cues, instead of external or just external ones.

And then, i also want to practice simulation, feeling like i become lucid and now everything is a dream. That would raise my awareness for when those cues get different. I would pretend my body and my feelings ( which could include memory ) have now a dreamy taste. For some reason, this is a step in MIlLD and Tholey's.

I believe the "continuous RC" ala Hukif's ADA/RC is the way for regular lucids all night long. It's basically awareness boosting working through a particular trigger. My personal ADA/RC I'm working on is location+transitions+objects-in-the-location. Basically, being continuously aware of where I am in the world, with a subtext of "is this a waking location?", heightened awareness when I'm transitioning location (with a required physical RC if I realise I made a transition without high awareness), and I look around at objects in the location, acknowledging their presence with awareness, with the subtext "is this a waking object?" This will work for me because I have a pretty strong sense of orientation in dreams (the path I'm taking through the dream world), and my dream awareness focuses a lot on objects in the scene.

I couple this with Tholey/LaBerge and periodically saying "STOP....I'm dreaming" or "wait a minute, I'm dreaming" (when something is strange or confusing, or if nothing is, pretending that I feel confused or something is weird or unexpected). Even though I never become lucid through RCs in dreams (once I even suspect I'm dreaming I'm already lucid), I still do them a lot during the day, because I have saved an LD via a reflex hand-check and the nose-pinch when I started doubting, I didn't need to think about what to do, I just did the nose pinch instantly.

Practicing doing things in waking life (like spinning at fades, or start-of-dream stabilization) really helps when the situation comes up in a dream because you don't have to spend time thinking what to do, you just react.

I also review the last night's dreams during the day and do daytime MILD: Imagine my self in the dream scene, and repeat to myself "I'm dreaming....I'm dreaming" while I hold that image.

I'll also do Sageous RRC from time to time but I do that less with ADA/RC since I'm basically always aware that "I exist" with ADA/RC. The quick memory check from RRC is good to do though.

So yes what you say sounds like a good approach, just tailor it to your particular dream sensitivities, and keep doing it!

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

And here it is. Of course many good guys have already talked about this. But i feel each one of us must figure out what that is and choose his or her approach.

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Exactly. Using another person's methods can work well, but unless it resonates with you, it would be difficult to keep up, and since lucid dreaming is so individualized, it is probably not as effective as self study. Learn from yourself, learn from others, and learn from experience in becoming lucid. I think many people forget this last very important step.

I am familiar with Tholey's method, but not the others you describe; I still have so much to read here at DV, but it sounds like an interesting approach. Let us know how it works out if you have success with it.

Yes, all LD practice must be tailored to oneself with careful constant honest self-evaluation. But the beauty of DV and people sharing what they do is that when starting from scratch it can take years or more of search to even learn about techniques that can yield results. So everyone can read about the universe of possibilities out there and choose ones that feel right, and create new ones even, from what others have done before.

I have posted the following reply, on another forum, to a member who said that « dreamy feeling would be a DS and not a RC». It was the right opportunity to clarify a small academic detail ;)

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Dreamy feeling would be a DS, not an RC.

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Yes, it is a DS, but i turn it into a RC.

The difference between a DS and a RC is that the first appears spontaneously, and the second involves intention, voluntary control. It´s not uncommon for a RC to turn into a DS. For instance, if i start flying. I may jump IWL as a RC, but i can jump in a non lucid dream too, without intention, and so it is a DS in this dream. I have also seen many fingers in NLDs and failed to become lucid.

And the other way around, in my daytime practices, i often look around me to search for DS in the environment. Indeed, i do think this is a good strategy to turn DS into RCs, because you are reinforcing the intention to recognize a DS. That is, you may remember in a NLD « oh, that´s my RC, so this must be a dream ». This has worked for me regarding flight.

So, the point is: perhaps one can check more often for feelings that may be kind of dreamy, so this becomes a specific narrow form of self awareness

Hmm, this makes sense. Someone I know in DV also says that she gets regular DILDs because she 'knows' what dreaming feels like. Even though dream can vivid as much as reality, there's something distinct feeling that only dream has. It's just like in the interview the woman said, it's simply 'dreamy' feeling. This is something that can be done only thru personal experience. If one follows that dreamy feeling well, then this builds up the ability to recognize the difference between reality and dream.

I think RC is a great tool, but you have to get lucid 'through' RC, not just RCing itself. If you just block your nose and pretend that you're breathing for RC, you'll just dream of blocking your nose or the RC won't work. This typically happens to newbies when they misinterpret RC this way. RC is an effective tool to confirm you're dreaming, but through that you have to get lucid by yourself. So the key point of RC is to make you 'feel' what is like to be lucid - feeling that everything is dream.

But at least for me, RC gives me too short time of 'feeling lucid'. That's why I had much faster progress last 2 nights when I dilated this feeling dreamy time part with ADA and critical questioning. The more you intensely know that you're dreaming, the more the ability of recognizing dream, thus you get regular DILDs at night.

Although awareness and critical questioning are the basic principles of getting lucid in dream, it can be hard to achieve when your 'memory system' is shut off while dreaming. Sageous explained this well somewhere in the forum, so basically when this memory system - memory of you having slept before black out, is still turned on while you're dreaming, you'll get higher lucidity.

They say that the logical system is off in our brain which makes us still not lucid when we see strange things in dream, but according to Sageous theory, it's not the logic that it's not working, it's actually some parts of the memory system. Because if you can really fly in reality, would you believe that reality is a dream? So seeing strange things in dream is logical itself because it makes sense only in the dream world.

That's why MILD works so well for inexperienced users, and also you get higher lucidity when you WILD than you get DILD mostly (at least in my experience). That can also explain why we have more vivid, memorable dreams right before you wake up and higher chance of having lucids in that time or late morning.

So I do ADA+RC not really during the day, rather at late afternoon - I do them more when the bedtime comes closer. And even when I'm falling asleep I still do ADA+RC which gives me more memorable first dreams and start doubting the dream in the early REM stage!

Anyway, feeling that you're dreaming is not a RC but gives you boost in lucidity which I think it's the most powerful training. When you tweak it with memory part, you can have full lucid for the night.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

I have been thinking about this since i read an interview with a ex-DV member, Line Salvesen ( Luminous ) who claims to have cca. 1500 lucids per year because she recognizes this dreamy feeling. She has LDs since her childhood nightmares, so one must be cautious - we have not this background. I have also chatted with her, and that´s all she has to say :roll: ( may be enough )

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I've found more info on that and the topic of this thread in a really interesting article from Robert Waggoner where, according to him, Line explains she gets the feeling because of continually asking through the day "What was I just doing?" It also analyzes how other people get that feeling. Summarizing the article, Waggoner speaks of different ways people he talked to have developed ultra-frequent lucidity: By continually asking through the day thinks like "What was I just doing?", "Where I am and what's this place?", "Am I safe here (from nightmares)?" Or as Waggoner puts it "A persistent mental habit of re-examining one’s perceived environment or state of awareness"

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Originally Posted by dreambh

I've found more info on that and the topic of this thread in a really interesting article from Robert Waggoner where, according to him, Line explains she gets the feeling because of continually asking through the day "What was I just doing?"

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Just had a mini-PM-conversation with VagalTone, and after checking again the article it looks like it was not Line who uses that question.

Okay, here's the thing:

When you are not lucid, you do not get a dreamy feeling. You cannot get a dreamy feeling, because, when not lucid, everything is real, no matter how odd. So, if you get a dreamy feeling, you are already on your way to lucidity, and probably don't need to do a RC at all.

I think everyone here already pretty much said that, and in much more detail, but I felt like it needed to be said again. Someone who gets lucid by reacting to a dreamy feeling was already lucid when they got that feeling; they had to be, almost by definition. So, in a sense, it makes for a lousy RC, if you use RC's as folks like Tholey and LaBerge intended (as routines you do during waking-life that you bring with you into the dream in the hopes of triggering lucidity while you're doing them, routinely, in the dream). Since everything in a NLD seems totally real and un-dreamy, doing a "dreamy feeling" RC during a NLD will likely come up blank, because everything will seem just fine when you check. Better, I think, to have a routine of checking concrete, simple things, like a clock or what's behind you.

For me, I think RC's are a daytime activity with no real use in dreams (I've never become lucid through an RC, so I may be a bit biased). They really are exercises to get your mind interested in storing the "idea" of lucidity in memory/day residue, and forming a solid, "don't have to think about it" method for taking in your surroundings for a moment and really wondering if this is a dream.

So, VagalTone, though it sounds like a great idea, a dreamy feeling really might not be a good start to becoming lucid, because you will never have that feeling before you are lucid. Now, it is a fine thing to practice, though, because once you are slightly self-aware in a dream, latching onto that dreamy feeling to gather more self-awareness is a very good thing. I do that regularly, and I would imagine that that is what Luminous was really talking about (though of course I could be wrong). And, if Luminous truly was able to recognize her surroundings as "dreamy" during a NLD, then that is a rare innate talent, and probably not a teachable technique (and yes, I would be a bit jealous of such a talent ;)).

Just throwing in my 2 cents, even though it seems you guys have already covered the topic quite thoroughly.

Thanks Sageous

Oh yes, i suppose there must be some degree of self awareness, specially since this is a subtler thing, but as you suggest maybe checking for a dreamy feeling is also good for self awareness and for keeping lucidity ( as long as one feels it ). I haven't practiced yet.

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Originally Posted by dreambh

I've found more info on that and the topic of this thread in a really interesting article from Robert Waggoner where, according to him, Line explains she gets the feeling because of continually asking through the day "What was I just doing?" It also analyzes how other people get that feeling. Summarizing the article, Waggoner speaks of different ways people he talked to have developed ultra-frequent lucidity: By continually asking through the day thinks like "What was I just doing?", "Where I am and what's this place?", "Am I safe here (from nightmares)?" Or as Waggoner puts it "A persistent mental habit of re-examining one’s perceived environment or state of awareness"

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Slightly off topic, but I agree, it makes sense that a frequent, persistent critical examining of environment/state leads to frequent lucidity. This mindset, more than the details of what you're examining, IMO, is the key to frequent lucidity.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Thanks Sageous

Oh yes, i suppose there must be some degree of self awareness, specially since this is a subtler thing, but as you suggest maybe checking for a dreamy feeling is also good for self awareness and for keeping lucidity ( as long as one feels it ). I haven't practiced yet.

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Good point, and that would be well worth practicing, I think!

I thought this was going to say something about doing a RC throughout the day whenever the electronic harassment based on radio waves was zapped at your brain. Happens to me a few times a week, makes me a bit dizzy and confused and shit feels dreamy. Might be a good tool for a RC, but is probably useless like Sageous said.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Okay, here's the thing:

When you are not lucid, you do not get a dreamy feeling. You cannot get a dreamy feeling, because, when not lucid, everything is real, no matter how odd. So, if you get a dreamy feeling, you are already on your way to lucidity, and probably don't need to do a RC at all.

I think everyone here already pretty much said that, and in much more detail, but I felt like it needed to be said again. Someone who gets lucid by reacting to a dreamy feeling was already lucid when they got that feeling; they had to be, almost by definition. So, in a sense, it makes for a lousy RC, if you use RC's as folks like Tholey and LaBerge intended (as routines you do during waking-life that you bring with you into the dream in the hopes of triggering lucidity while you're doing them, routinely, in the dream). Since everything in a NLD seems totally real and un-dreamy, doing a "dreamy feeling" RC during a NLD will likely come up blank, because everything will seem just fine when you check. Better, I think, to have a routine of checking concrete, simple things, like a clock or what's behind you.

For me, I think RC's are a daytime activity with no real use in dreams (I've never become lucid through an RC, so I may be a bit biased). They really are exercises to get your mind interested in storing the "idea" of lucidity in memory/day residue, and forming a solid, "don't have to think about it" method for taking in your surroundings for a moment and really wondering if this is a dream.

So, VagalTone, though it sounds like a great idea, a dreamy feeling really might not be a good start to becoming lucid, because you will never have that feeling before you are lucid. Now, it is a fine thing to practice, though, because once you are slightly self-aware in a dream, latching onto that dreamy feeling to gather more self-awareness is a very good thing. I do that regularly, and I would imagine that that is what Luminous was really talking about (though of course I could be wrong). And, if Luminous truly was able to recognize her surroundings as "dreamy" during a NLD, then that is a rare innate talent, and probably not a teachable technique (and yes, I would be a bit jealous of such a talent ;)).

Just throwing in my 2 cents, even though it seems you guys have already covered the topic quite thoroughly.

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I have little experience but always have suspected or known I was dreaming and then RCed only to confirm (sometimes RCed again before jumping off a building, given the sheer realism of the dream :chuckle:) So I could say I agree with you, Sageous, and it's important to warn new ones about mindless RCing.
But I would like to point out that when reading LaBerge's work I didn't think I should RC during the day so that the habit carried on to my dreams, but rather that I should regularly question my reality so that this critical thinking carried into my dreams. Also with dreamsigns I understood I should be looking for them. RCs should only complement those... Maybe it's only how *I interpreted it*.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

Slightly off topic, but I agree, it makes sense that a frequent, persistent critical examining of environment/state leads to frequent lucidity. This mindset, more than the details of what you're examining, IMO, is the key to frequent lucidity.

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My take on the OP is not that one can use the "dreamy feeling" as a RC, but that it is persistent critical examining of one's state, when has become second nature, and regardless of what different way you choose to examine/question/check it (gravity, breathing, blinking, etc), that turns into the "dreamy feeling" or "just knowing it's a dream" some people speak about.

@Sageous (and anyone else, of course): What's your opinion on striving for 24/7 critical examining of one's state in order to achieve lucidity?

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Originally Posted by dreambh

But I would like to point out that when reading LaBerge's work I didn't think I should RC during the day so that the habit carried on to my dreams, but rather that I should regularly question my reality so that this critical thinking carried into my dreams. Also with dreamsigns I understood I should be looking for them. RCs should only complement those... Maybe it's only how *I interpreted it*.

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I didn't get that impression from LaBerge's work, or the man himself, but it could be a matter of semantics here: after all, frequently and enthusiastically questioning your state in waking life will lead to the tendency for that state-testing "habit" to appear in a NLD. We may be talking about the same thing, but with different words. Also, LaBerge himself was very interested in building a mindset during waking-life that included plenty of state tests that asked and answered the question, "Is this a dream?" I don't believe he had a problem with this becoming a steady routine -- a habit. And yes, recognizing dreamsigns leading to doing a RC leading to remembering you are dreaming is the proper sequence.

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My take on the OP is not that one can use the "dreamy feeling" as a RC, but that it is persistent critical examining of one's state, when has become second nature, and regardless of what different way you choose to examine/question/check it (gravity, breathing, blinking, etc), that turns into the "dreamy feeling" or "just knowing it's a dream" some people speak about.

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Agreed. But that "dreamy feeling," that "just knowing," is an existent, subtle wave of self-awareness that tends to negate the need for a RC, so actually doing a RC based on it might help to prod that subtlety to the fore of your perceptions, but is a bit redundant, I think.

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@Sageous: What's your opinion on striving for 24/7 critical examining of one's state in order to achieve lucidity?

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My opinion is that would be an extremely exhausting thing to do. However, if you pull it off without ever losing the significance of the questions you are asking (or your sanity), then yes, 24/7 action of "critical examining of one's state" would make lucidity pretty much a given (and change your waking-life condition significantly as well, given the powerful infusion of self-awareness that would result).

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Originally Posted by dreambh

My take on the OP is not that one can use the "dreamy feeling" as a RC, but that it is persistent critical examining of one's state, when has become second nature, and regardless of what different way you choose to examine/question/check it (gravity, breathing, blinking, etc), that turns into the "dreamy feeling" or "just knowing it's a dream" some people speak about.

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I actually thought about using it as a RC ( that is, checking how you feel ) which then becomes perhaps easier to feel in a dream. Think of it as searching for a DS while awake. It will be easier to spot in a dream if you search for it while awake. May be it eventually becomes second nature, a persistent internal monitoring activity.