Meditation for lucid dreaming?

Hi, I don't mean to bother anyone but I need some help with something that Google and other sites/forums have been unable to provide me with conclusive answers. Which is, a good meditation technique that increases your chances to attain lucidity in a dream.
Recently I started meditating 40 minutes per day, but I'm not sure the techniques I'm using are fitting for LD. One of them is meditating on my pineal gland/third eye, because it increases the melatonin level making dreams more vivid. The other.. I'm not so sure about it, I just try to keep my mind clear of thoughts and maintain self awareness.
Additionally, I've heard that meditating on your breath is effective, can anyone confirm? Ideally, if a technique really works, I'd like to hear why. For example, would breath meditation work because you maintain your awareness (on your breath), thus increasing the chance of attaining/maintaining awareness from waking life into the dream?

I'm most familiar with Buddhist styles and they are usually based on the breath, at least as a teaching tool when you are first learning. The breath has several practical advantages. It's free, it's always with you, it works for any posture, you can choose to control it or not, it's countable, it has a calming effect that is both psychological and physiological. It's equally suited to the two main variations of Buddhist mediation: mindfulness and concentration. It's also used as a focal point and metaphor in several ways, such as compassion (giving/receiving), dualism (in/out, up/down, push/pull), sense of self (body/environment, the breath vs my breath).

So in my practice, the breath isn't a particular technique or style but a tool used by many styles. It's a good way to start (or restart when you drift away) and then lead into other focal points. If you're searching for books or on the internet, then "mindfulness" is the keyword. I think it's a good approach to aid lucid dreaming but for me the main benefit is my overall well-being. I lucid dream more often when I'm in good spirits and metal clarity, and that's where meditation helps me.

I'm no expert, I hardly ever meditate but I'm trying to get back into a routine. I have some thoughts on this subject, though. Maybe we can both test these ideas and keep each other updated on how it's going?

First, I think that any sort of meditation helps. Probably because you're practicing discipline and gaining control over your mind (which is basically the goal of lucid dreaming, right?).

Next, I would think the third eye meditation you're doing would be beneficial. In my experience, when my dreams are more clear/vivid I'm more likely to become lucid. How long have you been doing that particular meditation? Do you see where it has helped increase the vividness in your dreams yet? I'm also curious about how exactly that meditation works, I'd like to try it myself if you don't mind telling me more or linking me to where you read about it. =]

Third - I'm pretty sure maintaining awareness is really important for not only being successful with lucid dreaming, but in other areas of life too. Just being completely in the moment, fully aware of everything happening. I've been reading a book called The Power of Now that has helped me get back into the habit of trying to keep my mind from rambling/getting lost inside my own head and just actually be aware of the present moment. I think that, in addition to a few other things I've been doing recently, has helped me start lucid dreaming more often again.
I think perhaps starting to meditate on your breath and being fully aware of it and your body/inner body, then letting yourself become aware of everything else going on would be a good practice.

Fourth - Do you ever try visual meditations? When I was about 12 and just starting to learn about spiritual/metaphysical stuff I was so much better at meditating/focusing, and I had this one book that included some pretty cool meditations that were more like intense day dreams than just focusing on your breath or trying to clear your mind. Lucid dreaming used to come SO easily to me back then. As I've gotten older, I've realized my visualization skills are not as strong as they used to be. This is something I'm really trying to work on lately. I think it's very important and will be really helpful with lucid dreaming to be able to visualize clearly. I'm pretty sure it also makes your dreams more vivid too.
But if you think about it, it makes sense. If you're better able to visualize things in waking life then you'd be better able to create and make things happen once lucid. Also (and this is just my theory) when you're working on visualizing and doing meditations like that, it's putting your brain waves into alpha, which apparently is like the gateway to your subconscious. So by doing that, you're kind of training your subconscious that you are in control and you're the creator.
I've read a few different books that explain it's really helpful to visualize yourself as having a dream and becoming lucid. Do you ever try anything like that?

I've been meditating for 9 months and I can definetely say that yes, it's really helped me when it came to lucid dreaming. While meditating there is more activity in the frontal lobs which are responsible for (self)awareness. The more you meditate, the more you'll be (self)aware in your life. And guess what? There is also an increased activity in the frontal lobs during hypnosis and, of course, lucid dreaming ;)

It's almost like a muscle: the more you meditate, the more you train this "muscle", the more you get better at lucid dreams.

Sisyphus and Soundofslumber's responses are full of insights, read them carefully ;)

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Originally Posted by soundofslumber

I'm no expert, I hardly ever meditate but I'm trying to get back into a routine. I have some thoughts on this subject, though. Maybe we can both test these ideas and keep each other updated on how it's going?

First, I think that any sort of meditation helps. Probably because you're practicing discipline and gaining control over your mind (which is basically the goal of lucid dreaming, right?).

Next, I would think the third eye meditation you're doing would be beneficial. In my experience, when my dreams are more clear/vivid I'm more likely to become lucid. How long have you been doing that particular meditation? Do you see where it has helped increase the vividness in your dreams yet? I'm also curious about how exactly that meditation works, I'd like to try it myself if you don't mind telling me more or linking me to where you read about it. =]

Third - I'm pretty sure maintaining awareness is really important for not only being successful with lucid dreaming, but in other areas of life too. Just being completely in the moment, fully aware of everything happening. I've been reading a book called The Power of Now that has helped me get back into the habit of trying to keep my mind from rambling/getting lost inside my own head and just actually be aware of the present moment. I think that, in addition to a few other things I've been doing recently, has helped me start lucid dreaming more often again.
I think perhaps starting to meditate on your breath and being fully aware of it and your body/inner body, then letting yourself become aware of everything else going on would be a good practice.

Fourth - Do you ever try visual meditations? When I was about 12 and just starting to learn about spiritual/metaphysical stuff I was so much better at meditating/focusing, and I had this one book that included some pretty cool meditations that were more like intense day dreams than just focusing on your breath or trying to clear your mind. Lucid dreaming used to come SO easily to me back then. As I've gotten older, I've realized my visualization skills are not as strong as they used to be. This is something I'm really trying to work on lately. I think it's very important and will be really helpful with lucid dreaming to be able to visualize clearly. I'm pretty sure it also makes your dreams more vivid too.
But if you think about it, it makes sense. If you're better able to visualize things in waking life then you'd be better able to create and make things happen once lucid. Also (and this is just my theory) when you're working on visualizing and doing meditations like that, it's putting your brain waves into alpha, which apparently is like the gateway to your subconscious. So by doing that, you're kind of training your subconscious that you are in control and you're the creator.
I've read a few different books that explain it's really helpful to visualize yourself as having a dream and becoming lucid. Do you ever try anything like that?

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You're probably right, any sort of meditation can help but I think some techniques are more efficient than others.

I'm also trying to get into a routine because I've been meditating on and off, but I can tell that when I was meditating on my third eye regularly it did affect my dreams/non-physical experiences positively. As for how to do it, there are different methods but I'll tell you what I do. Just sit in the classic meditation pose, legs crossed, hands in your lap, back straight (use a wall or something to lean against if you want), and focus your awareness at a point between your eyebrows but slightly above them. You can also "look" at that point with your closed eyes, but don't try too hard, I once focused my eyes on the 3rd eye so much during a 20 min meditation session I got a headache that lasted over 12 hours! So be careful with your physical eyes. After 10-15 minutes you should feel a pressure/tingling sensation on your forehead, especially between your eyebrows. For me it feels like someone's pushing their finger on it through both the inside and outside. Don't worry if you feel nothing at first, I had the same happen for a few sessions after a meditation break of weeks. It takes some time to "activate" the 3rd eye after it's been inactive for a while. Also, the less thoughts you have, the better, just focus on that point in silence, if any thoughts occur, notice them, then discard them and go back to silent (relaxed and calm, if I may add) concentration. That's about it, the duration depends on the person, beginners can do 5 minutes per session if they want.

Yes, maintaining your awareness very important but also very difficult to remember and keep doing, in my experience at least.. It's so easy to forget and just switch to "auto-pilot", if you know what i mean. I've heard about "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle, great teacher, I hope to find the time to read it someday. I'll also try breath meditation.

Personally I didn't really give visual meditations a chance because.. frankly I also suck at visualization. I prefer things that are more "hands on", so to speak, that I have more control over, such as WILD or WBTB. You're probably right though, getting good at visualizing stuff must be helpful, but I'm not that desperate yet, lol. Also, I've had a couple lucid dreams in which I used my (poor) visualization skills to manifest things, and I managed to do it quite easily and accurately, so I don't know about that..
Never tried visualizing myself having a dream and becoming lucid, like I said, I prefer things I can control better.

Frankly I don't know whether such a thing as "the third eye" actually exists, but I'm open minded so, why not?

Anyway I wanted to point out that the more relaxed feelings you get when meditating and focusing on the third eye actually derive that by doing so you slightly rotate your eyes upwards and keep them focused on one single point. This helps your brain to reach more easily the alpha state.

+1 for The Power of Now. Good read.

I personally don't trust meditating.

If you're looking to mix meditation and lucid dreaming, you might be interested in learning more about the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dream Yoga...

Dream Yoga is the Tibetan Buddhist practice of lucid dreaming, which goes far beyond simply getting lucid and is a 2,000+ year old practice. Because it's a well-developed system, there are some very specific meditation techniques that you do as you fall asleep that include visualizations. There are also some on-going day time practices. If you're interested in those meditation techniques, I suggest these books:
- The Tibetan Yogas Of Dream And Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche
- Dream Yoga And The Practice Of Natural Light by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
- Dreaming Yourself Awake by B. Alan Wallace

All these teachers are foremost, international teachers.

Aside from giving great advice for meditation techniques, these books were super helpful in deepening my understanding of and capacity for lucid dreaming as a tool for personal development.

Good luck :)

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Originally Posted by Narwhal

I personally don't trust meditating.

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Meditating just means to sit and encounter your own mind. There are different techniques, but it's really just that simple.
Saying you don't trust meditating is like saying, "I don't trust looking in the mirror".

Well I overly day dream, but I was told meditating is sitting there thoughtless. To silence ones mind. I won't do this. The two minds in my head, one I use for functioning, the other constantly chants these two special phrases while I watch TV, surf the web, play games, talk to people, function etc. Something took over it once before and said bad thoughts in my head and told me to do things I dare not do, so since I've rid of it I MUST keep that mind part busy thus why it will constantly chant irritants to the foreign. That is why I can't meditate, it'd make it far more easier for the foreign to get into my pod if I'm not manning it. But that is only why I personally don't trust it, I'm sure it's highly beneficial to others.

@Sunyata: Thanks for the books, I was just looking for some stuff related to dream yoga :)

@Naewhal: I don't see meditation as sitting there thoughtless. Well, of course in some sessions of meditation you can become "thoughtless", but it's not the goal of meditation, but rather a byproduct. The goal of meditation, the way I see it, is to observe the mind so that you can calm it and find peace and at the same time detach yourself from your thoughts, stop giving labels to them and thus, once again, finding peace through reaching a state of mind of equanimity.
It's almost like "defragging" your mind, detaching yourself from all those thoughts, filtering them and reaching something solid, the relaxed and focused state of mind which is always there, only covered by the chatter of the mind.

@Valdast94: Oh, from reading up on it out of curiosity in the past, in the majority of articles and writings they said meditating was about clearing the mind of constant thoughts, and to have the mind void of thought for a period of time and the benefits of those actions. But I've also heard there are various techniques. But if what you've written is the case, then I've been hyper meditating chronically my entire life, as my therapists have told me I am highly introspective. My thoughts question my thoughts, and the origin of my thoughts being my own, inserted and/or influenced by foreign means. I may very well be a massive hypocrite :uhm:

Well, that's actually mental masturbation :P What I mean by "observing the mind" is look at the thoughts and recognizing that you are not them, but at the same time you don't try to stop them, you just let them be.

When I meditate I sit still for 15-20 minutes and start mentally repeating a mantra. Every thought that come up I just let it be and keep focusing on the mantra. Every time I catch myself focusing on the thoughts I gently put my attention again on the mantra.

By the way, at some point you come to realize that the observer and the observed are actually the same things :3

Yeah definitely,

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mentally repeating a mantra. Every thought that come up I just let it be and keep focusing on the mantra. Every time I catch myself focusing on the thoughts I gently put my attention again on the mantra.

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that's essentially what I do in all my waking hours. But I also know of and experienced infiltration of a foreign personality entering. Also, what like you said we are not; thoughts, the ego. That's something I definitely grasp. I guess I unknowingly rely on meditating daily :content:

We are basically doing the same thing, the only difference is that I actually sit down twice a day to do it :P

By the way I'm not one of those "trascend all the ego and be always peaceful in the now" guy, I personally think one can have a lot of fun with the ego, so I just meditate because it's fun, it keeps me focused and happy, but I use a lot my imagination nonetheless :P Anyway, we are going off topic, we'd better continue this conversation via PM. ^^

Ha that's true :D

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Originally Posted by Narwhal

@Valdast94: Oh, from reading up on it out of curiosity in the past, in the majority of articles and writings they said meditating was about clearing the mind of constant thoughts, and to have the mind void of thought for a period of time and the benefits of those actions. But I've also heard there are various techniques. But if what you've written is the case, then I've been hyper meditating chronically my entire life, as my therapists have told me I am highly introspective. My thoughts question my thoughts, and the origin of my thoughts being my own, inserted and/or influenced by foreign means. I may very well be a massive hypocrite :uhm:

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That's almost correct, from what I've studied that's the basis of analytical meditation, where you watch and analyse your thoughts and emotions. The difference is that meditation has a goal, meditation itself is a process of changing the brain. So instead of just watching and analysing your thoughts (which is very important) you also try and decide which thoughts are good and which ones are not for your peace of mind, happiness, concentration or whatever you want to achieve in your session or long term.

Having a quiet mind can be a goal, in fact it's very important to be able to quiet one's mind (Google monkey mind) to improve focus on the "now" when you need to. It's more to do with being free from distractions so you can concentrate on your daydream for example, rather than worrying about yesterday or tomorrow. So it's a useful skill and meditation can definitely improve that skill if that's your goal.

So in the end all "meditation" is, is actively working on your mind in some way.

Last night I meditated to lucid dream and it worked! Not sure how helpful this will be though. I was trying to WBTB SSILD into a dream. I wanted to use SSILD to get to the relaxation point where I was on the brink of losing consciousness so that I could WILD. The first attempt didn't go so well because I was stressed and anxious. I was getting even more frustrated because it wasn't working well at all. So I meditated for about 15 minutes on letting myself experience whatever pent up emotions I had. I would look inside to where I was feeling something and then focus on that feeling until I was expressing it with my entire being. For me, they were in my upper back, my chest, and my throat. I don't know how else to describe it. After I had felt what I had to feel, I felt a lot lighter and so I tried SSILD again. After a couple of cycles I was in a dream and I did a little cheer.:awesomed:

By meditating to clear my mind, my emotions, and by relaxing I was able to WILD successfully. It's like Sisyphus said, "I lucid dream more often when I'm in good spirits and metal clarity, and that's where meditation helps me." Lucid dreaming is a lot easier, for as well, when I'm in good spirits and when I have mental clarity. When I'm stressed and my mind is cluttered, a lot of my dream time will be devoted to that and it is often a lot harder to intentionally lucid dream and to control my dreams once I'm in them. Meditation is very useful for solving this problem.

@Memm: Well, what you say is right, but I found that the brain reprogrammation happens automatically, both during meditation, when you suddenly have some insights about something, and during the everyday life. Or at least it happens that way by me!

I can honestly say that doing a breath focus meditation can increase dream vividness, but it doesn't have a 100% chance of inducing LD.

I've been trying to use meditation to assist me attaining WILD's. I have experienced DILD's and chaining before, but not a conscious transition from awake to conscious dreaming. Since doing this for about 2 weeks, I've had two experiences where I started to dream (like hypnagogic images) but then became too alert and lost it. I consider that progress. My main problem is that as by the time I start to experience hypnagogic images I am often too far into sleep to retain consciousness. Meditation helps me to achieve a rapid state of extreme relaxation, and the ability to focus the mind. Both of which I think will assist achieving WILD.
If you have any success using meditation, let me know :)

These video's may give you some ideas:
Advanced lucid dreaming: part 6 - YouTube
Advanced lucid dreaming: part 7 - YouTube

Short:
He is trying to say that concentration meditation (focussing on one point) isn't bad, but he says that when he's meditating, he is trying to be aware of anything and just observing it. And he brings this state of awareness into daily life, which is ADA or Mindfulness.

When you're meditating you're trying to build mindfulness (observing / being aware) but you need concentration for that or you'll fall asleep, so it's a bit of a juggling act between concentration and mindfulness.

I just got recently turned on to the writings of Allan Wallace, a western man who has spent serious time (14 years?) studying under the Tibetan buddhist gurus, including dream yoga training, and who himself now leads lucid dreaming and yoga retreats. He is a prolific author, and has written a lot about meditation, making it approachable for westerners. He has also written a book about lucid dreaming ("Dream Yourself Awake"), a fusion of eastern dream yoga and contemporary western LD approaches. I've just started reading this book so can't give a full review, but I can say he *does* address meditation for lucid dreaming.

Wallace emphasizes that non-lucidity is the result of the dullness and amnesia inherent in the dream state. To become lucid we must counter both while awake: dullness is countered by meditation including continuous re-relaxation and re-focusing. He promotes both breathing awareness meditation and awareness-awareness meditation.

His books (the LD one and his "Attention Revolution") I think are probably all one needs to make great progress in LDing via meditation.

Of course there is also the classic "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep", also a great read.

Rofl thanks for all the suggestions, old and new. This thread is 8 months old though and since then I've learned that self-awareness is the key.

So far I have noticed a correlation between consistent meditation and increased dream recall/vividness.

To test this out I started meditating daily and keeping a record of the length/date of each session. I started out 20 minutes a day but slowly increased the length. I didn't notice any difference after a month but kept going because I enjoyed it.

According to my logs, after around 60 days I started getting consistent and detailed dream recall. This occurred even though I wasn't writing my dreams down in a journal, like I used to. I continued to meditate for another month after that, and the dream recall remained strong but I still didn't have any lucid dreams. I was prepared to be patient.

Then I hurt my back and couldn't sit to meditate anymore. I stopped for about a month, and the dream recall pretty much disappeared.

Last week my back improved and I started meditating daily again (just a short time, 10-30 minutes max) and before a week had passed I started remembering my dreams again.

This doesn't prove anything conclusively but I think it is strong evidence that meditation at the very least improves dream recall, which we know is a crucial element to lucid dreaming. I think some additional techniques will help one to actually have lucid dreams but this seems like good "groundwork" to make any attempts more likely to bear fruit.

I should also mention that meditation is NOT RECOMMENDED for anyone with mental health issues, whether it takes the form of emotional disturbance or schizophrenic delusions such as intrusive thoughts, paranoia, etc. Some of the comments on this thread are worrying.

If you have a history of mental health issues you should only take up meditation under the guidance of an experienced counselor or teacher.

Meditation is one of my lucid must-do's. I find that meditation done laying back down on my bed is most useful. I follow basic meditation technique for deep relaxation and mindfulness, and I walk myself slowly down until I hit the first stage of Jhana (a powerful electrical sensation shooting throughout my body). Once I hit this stage I let the electricity feeling ebb and I have full attention of my inner mind. Once that's done, I simply talk with myself and tell myself how excited I am to lucid dream, and how I will lucid dream whenever I want.

Interestingly enough the lucids always come the day AFTER an intense meditation, and not the night of... Like an aftershock of sorts. (Interesting to me, anyway).

But I'd say meditation is good at any level, but laying down meditation mimics the walk into consciousness like WBTB techniques and allows for mantra's in a sleeping position.