I think WILDs might just be really good DILDs

I'm a big fan of Occam's Razor, so in that spirit, I propose this unified theory of LDing. We all know about WILDs and DILDs, and their differences. We also all, or most of us at least, look to WILD as the pinnacle of lucid dreaming, and as maybe something that is distinct from DILDs. However, I propose that a WILD and a DILD are essentially the same thing, and that maybe we should all just be trying to WILD and that will give us DILDs until we can eventually WILD.

Here's a simple argument for why a WILD is just a better DILD, or a DILD is just a poorly done WILD. During the day you know you are going to be dreaming and you hope to have a lucid dream at night. When you DILD, your lucidity only begins after a certain amount of time being unaware of the fact that you are dreaming. When you WILD, you are simply aware that you are dreaming from the beginning of the dream. I would also posit that a better DILD would be a DILD where you realize earlier in the dream that you are dreaming, thus making a WILD the best sort of DILD.

Of course, we can all say words and then make arguments from them, but this is more of an explanation of what I've observed in myself, namely after I realized that I had been having WILDs for a while, but I would never name them as such, mostly because of the influence of our established LD terminology and their connotations. Basically, the way I would WILD, I would never have any intention of WILDing, but I would be lying in bed falling asleep, and then at some point, usually after some sort of break in consciousness, I would just realize that I could construct a dream world in my mind, or a dream would start and I would realize from the beginning that it was a dream. That is why I am calling a WILD the best sort of DILD, because I didn't sleep with any intention of WILDing, I didn't even try to hold onto my consciousness, I just realized from the beginning of the dream that it was a dream. And that sort of realization feels exactly the same to me as when I have DILDs, because the way I have DILDs is not from a random RC or from unusual events, it's that at some point I just realize that the nature of what I am currently experiencing is a dream, whereas in the WILD as soon as the dream arises I realize that that experience is a dream.

So what are people's thoughts on this? Is it all just insane ramblings because after writing it all out it sure feels that way?

There are some interesting points. The fact that a DILD, being aware of dreaming at the beginning is kinda like a WILD. But for me, WILD is more than that. It's the experience before you enter the dream. You being aware of it all, from awake to dream: the imagery, the distorted sounds, the vibration in your body, the feeling of rapid eye movements, the feeling of OBE,... This is a great part of WILD that i like very much to experience. I believe this is not a part of DILD.

I agree with the guy above, when I attempt WILDS I feel the effects of my body falling asleep shutting down. I hear the ringing going out of control as it lowers my awareness of my physical body. You should be expriencing hypnogagic imagery and eventually one of the images should suck you in. That's when the dream starts and you should already be aware that it's a dream. There should be no lapse in consciousness otherwise it will not be consider a WILD. I don't think this is much evidence but usually when I have a WILD I find the duration of it to be shorter and less control in the dream.

solpic...most of my WILDs are similar, which is why I simply call them "unintentional WILDs". I think the only situation in which you can view a WILD to be similar to a DILD is when it is unintentional. A normal or intentional WILD is still very different than a DILD in my opinion, and it needs to be in order to clearly teach the techniques and methods of how to accomplish them and keep new LDers from getting too confused. When you are more experienced it's easier to develop your own vocabulary and not get too bogged down in the terminology or trying to fit everything into a neat little category. But when I'm trying to help other dreamers I stick to the official sort of definitions because it makes it easier for everyone.

I'm not sure if this is what the OP is talking about exactly but I came to the same conclusion a while ago, that at least some WILDs are DILDs.

As DreamHighlander and ViIe both say, with a WILD you feel all the sensations of your body slipping away, you hear the humming, vibrations, feel all them great sensations and you don't loose consciousness, which is what I love about WILDs also.

The thing is though, I think that what is happening (at least sometimes) is that at some point while trying to WILD, we slip into a very vivid, non Lucid Dream about still trying to WILD.

We feel as if we are still conscious (as that's how you feel in vivid non Lucid's) and trying to WILD, but really we're still trying to WILD in a non Lucid Dream.
Then as we're trying to WILD, the Dream starts giving all them sweet sensations we're expecting, just like a Dream would as they work on expectation.

When we then go through the sensations, we expect to be Lucid and become so, thinking we've gone straight from being consciously trying to WILD and into a Lucid Dream.
Where we've actually gone from being consciously trying to WILD, slipped into a vivid non Lucid about trying to WILD (without realising and seemingly with no break in consciousness), to becoming Lucid after or during sensations.

The reason I came up with this theory is because quite a few times I've WILDed, it's felt as if I've gone straight from being awake, to getting the sensations with no laps in consciousness and into a Lucid Dream after them.

However upon opening my eyes in some Lucid's after WILDs, I realise I'm not in my bed but somewhere else.
I then realise and only then, that whilst I was going through the sensations, I already knew I wasn't in bed and was somewhere else but that didn't seem strange, it would of seemed strange to me had I still been fully conscious.

I must have slipped into a non Lucid about trying to WILD and that's why I felt I was somewhere else other than my bed, but it didn't seem strange until I became Lucid.

If I'd have come round in my bed on these occasions and the non Lucid I'd slipped into was of being in my bed, I would have been convinced that I'd gone straight in from being awake and never lost consciousness.

It was only the fact of the Non Lucid getting my location wrong, that gave away I'd ever slipped into a non Lucid Dream at all.

Hope that all makes sense, it's a little hard to explain.

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Originally Posted by Mr0Blonde

However upon opening my eyes in some Lucid's after WILDs, I realise I'm not in my bed but somewhere else.
I then realise and only then, that whilst I was going through the sensations, I already knew I wasn't in bed and was somewhere else but that didn't seem strange, it would of seemed strange to me had I still been fully conscious.

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It happens to me also but i don't feel strange and i am fully conscious all the way. I get this because it's my intention to be in a fully different scenario after WILD.
I understand what you mean, your experience and solpic's too. But then, i guess the title should have been something like "Sometimes WILDs feel like really good DILDs".

No i don't mean they feel like DILDs, they feel like WILDs.

Let me put it this way....

If you're lying in bed with your eyes closed, fully conscious and trying to WILD, you get the sensations and go into a Dream Lucid.

Or....

You slip into a very real non Lucid Dream, lying in bed with your eyes closed, feeling fully conscious (as that's how you feel in vivid non Lucid's) and trying to WILD, you get the sensations (caused by the Dream this time though) and go into a Dream Lucid.

How would you know the difference between the two?

My belief is, you wouldn't.

It is, for all intents and purposes, probably impossible to know if one loses consciousness or not over a period of time. I posit that the slip into and out of unconsciousness can be so subtle that it can present the illusion of never having lost consciousness at all.

If we accept that thesis, then yes, it is not an unreasonable conclusion that all "true" WILDs could be actually just start-of-dream DILDs with an undetectable period of unconsciousness that *feels* like continuous consciousness. But if we accept that assumption, then we really can't know the truth at all, it would be unknowable, even with EEGs, perhaps the lapse could be so short that it's not measurable.

But then even if all that were true, does it really matter? WILD could then be defined as entering a dream "with no discernible loss of consciousness" as opposed to "with no loss of consciousness" that accounts for the possibility that it may be impossible to know for sure. However, that is slicing the semantics pretty thinly and other than being an interesting theoretical question, holds no relevance to those who just "want the dream."

I have experienced a few what I thought of as WILDs that now I think may in fact have been just start-of-dream DILDs where I watched the dream image form, after a (possibly very short) period of unconsciousness / discontinuity.

I have also experienced entering what seems to be a dream state fully consciously, without a feeling of discontinuity, but I've never experienced a dream with visuals forming once in that state, so I really can't say for sure.

If every time I try to "WILD" I actually get a "start of dream DILD" instead, I'd be one happy camper.

Also note that, from the data points I'm aware of, it seems that "expert lucid dreamers," by and large, succeed at DILD far more frequently than they succeed at "full WILD" (not counting DEILD as full WILD). So calling on people to jump fully into WILD only may do nothing other than keep a lot of people from DILDing :).

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

Also note that, from the data points I'm aware of, it seems that "expert lucid dreamers," by and large, succeed at DILD far more frequently than they succeed at "full WILD" (not counting DEILD as full WILD). So calling on people to jump fully into WILD only may do nothing other than keep a lot of people from DILDing :).

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This post is essentially about theory, semantics, and the way we view lucid dreaming as a whole, and less of a "this is what you should do" post. But as a whole, I've always felt unsatisfied with the way I and the lucid dreaming community views lucid dreams, mainly because I felt that if we viewed lucid dreams in a more accurate way, everyone would be a whole lot more successful. I've also always felt unsatisfied with all the lucid dreaming techniques out there, mainly because they all seem like they only work for a few people, and essentially seem like tricks. This post also stems from a lot of the reading I've been doing about WILDs involving more "current" theories about achieving them, namely that the most important part of WILDing is to fall asleep, and secondary to that is retaining your awareness. A lot of those treatments of WILDing also discount SP, hypnagognia, etc, as interesting but irrelevant side effects of WILD, and that the most important part is just falling asleep.

I suppose it's also very important to mention that I like to view lucid dreaming from a perspective of mindfulness, and that increased mindfulness and awareness are what leads to more lucid dreams, and that all techniques are just derived from that. It seems that nearly every expert lucid dreamer I've read about uses techniques that are either just overall mindfulness (pretty much identical to all day awareness or lucid living) or concentration exercises/meditations which would by their nature increase awareness and mindfulness. These viewpoints also come from personal experience, because I noticed in myself that after I started a meditation practice the number of lucid dreams I had skyrocketed, and I don't do any techniques.

The reason this comes back to WILDs is because until I had the realization which was in the original post, I had no way to fit how WILDs came about into my grand unified theory of lucid dreaming, and that bothered me. But now, it seems to me, WILDs are also generated by awareness.

I imagine that was all somewhat incoherent, because I'm feeling pretty tired at the moment, but I'll try to sum up my viewpoints. Most importantly, I think that for the most part the way we view lucid dreams, and the way we view achieving lucid dreams, is distorted. I think a technique is only useful in so far as it increases awareness. And I think that with WILDs, the way to have one is to fall asleep while holding on to your awareness, which makes it pretty much the same as a DILD, where you simply lose your awareness for a while and then get it back again after a certain point.

So actually in summary, I guess what I'm saying is not that people should try to WILD instead of DILD, people should just try to increase their awareness overall, because that is what will lead to WILDs and DILDs.

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Originally Posted by solpic

So actually in summary, I guess what I'm saying is not that people should try to WILD instead of DILD, people should just try to increase their awareness overall, because that is what will lead to WILDs and DILDs.

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Bingo! I'm in pretty much total agreement with everything you write. In other words, everyone should listen to :sageous: Sageous :sageous: :) Love that new smiley :sageous:.

Only don't discount timing. And memory. And recall. :)