Maintain the ability of lucid dreaming to old age?

Hey,
Today ive read that the ability of lucid dreaming decrease from the age of 50 years because the sleep quality and the rem-sleep length is decreasing (because of the changing metabolism and the calcification of the pineal gland) . Since Lucid Dreaming is my life and i cant imagine to loose this ability in the future im searching for a way to maintain lucid dreaming to old age. Currently i´m 22 years old but it makes me sad that i could loose the ability of lucid dreaming when i´m old (ive saw a chart which showed that in the age of 25 the rem phase decrease, so i feel old already :( ). Before i knew that ive never had any fear of aging but now the thought of it makes me crazy. Is there any medication to maintain lucid dreaming and a youthful sleep and dreams so i can even dream lucid in the age of 70 or 80?

PS: Sorry for my bad english.

"Say it ain't so, Joe!" Well I certainly hope not. I think I'm a pretty good example of what hard work and dedication/determination can do for "aged" dreamers. I'm right up around that first, magical age you mentioned (the age-which-shall-not-be-mentioned), and despite being on a b*tch of a dry spell right now my (non-lucid) dreaming just seems to get better and better, especially with mindfulness day work.

So I intend to go kicking and screaming into the great beyond, dream-wise. I figure I have at least 3 decades of fabulous dreaming left.

But it does take effort: daily regular intense exercise, good diet, not eating too close to bed time, avoiding anxiety, etc. When I stick to this list of things one should do for good sleep, I sleep very well.

You young whippersnappers who are learning LDing in your 20s and earlier should thank your lucky stars that you had the opportunity to learn it while your minds are still flexible and you sleep like logs. :P :P :P :P :P

Concerning what you read, it's true: REM cycles shorten and quality of sleep lessens with age. But I agree with FryingMan--there is no reason why LDing should cease altogether. When you consider how short the average LD is anyway, a shortened REM cycle is really not that terrifying. And as FM said, his potential for lucidity seems very high, based on recall and vividness of his dreams.

On the other hand, the mind loses its sharpness with age, which unfortunately is just how it is--the body wears itself out. Even old, high-level yogis admit that the clarity is not the same as it was in their youth. That's why we all need to take advantage of the time we have now and use it to the best if our ability.

As for medication, there are many nootropics on the market (including Galantamine), which are aimed at sharpening the mind.

I remember seeing a graph that shows that all the way to 80, REM sleep does not lessen *by very much*. I do not recall the source, now.

That's OK, I'll just invest in a melatonin factory and start popping 'em like tic tacs if I have to. Many older people get very sedentary, and lack of physical exercise really hits the quality of sleep. So I plan to stay very physically active. Heck, there are some members here older than I am who are just starting to hit their stride in their LDing practice (I'll let them announce themselves if they so choose :) ).

I intend to be a poster child for "if you use it, you won't lose it," and I happen to be lucky that my family on both sides is filled with people who live, remaining in their own homes, well into their nineties, and there is no dementia on either side of my family (both my parents are very mentally and socially active and are in their mid 80's -- they're both voracious readers and participate in numerous social and philanthropical activities which keeps them really sharp.)

Oh and 3C: :P I intend to be venturing forth into loooong LD land in 2015. Lucid all night, every night, baby! Ain't gonna stop till I get there -- and am going to enjoy every step of the way.

Dreaming FTW!

This is not my personal experience, but a member of my monthly LD meetup is in his 50s or 60s. He's only been LD for a few years and said he dedicates all his time in retirement to it. He keeps weird hours for sleep so tries every opportunity he can and has been very successful. If someone at that age can pick it up and maintain it now who knows what you will accomplish by the time you reach that age? :)

The ability to lucid dream is not necessarily lost with advancing age. I can speak from personal experience as I am almost 70. I rekindled an interest in lucid dreaming about a year ago. It has been something of a struggle, especially the first few months, to achieve the lucid state, but now I have a lucid dream a few times a month. Persistence is one of the keys, at any age. I have a lot of work to do yet and hopefully a lot of time left to do it.

I know that I have to accept the fact that I am declining as I age. The point is to do the work now and keep at it until this life ends.

As I wandered past the half-century mark, I have noticed that advanced LD'ing does take a bit more effort than it used to, especially in the memory department.

But by the same token, when I've made that newly required extra effort and manage a round of strong lucidity, I have my years of experience on hand to enjoy a quality of lucidity and dream that I simply could not have known when I was still young and strong so many years ago.

In other words, you might have to work a little harder when you are older, but the potential to LD will always be with you.

Hey,

I searched around the web and found out that you have similar dream length and dream recall as an young person when youre old:

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For "dream recall in old age" the medicine-journal "Gesundheit im Internet" tersely distributed the message: "You are dreaming less in old age." This isnt true just like the opinion that you need lesser sleep in old age. One of the evidences is a survey of the swiss population where we were asking: "How frequently are you dreaming?" The answers showed that there was an equal number of old people recalling dreams as good and as bad as young people. This means dream recall wont get inferior at old age. In a research in Mannheim (Mannheim is a city in germany) we were asking old people if the dream recall were gotten worse in comparison when they were younger. The majority of the participants stated that the recall of their dreams were the same, but also there were people were the recall was better or inferior. The dream recall depends at every age on many factors: The interest in dreaming improves the dream recall.

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Results are showing that old people dream as much as young people and have a good dream recall. She [Prof. Dr. phil. Inge Strauch] stated after empirical studies that dreams of elders are more based on reality, but have more unknown sorroundings and persons than young persons.

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Source: Lebenshorizont Alter - Google Books

Sorry for my poor translation. This means that you can have lucid dreams at old age as good as when you are young? Ive found out on reddit.com/r/neuro that REM sleep doesnt decrease much when you are old. This sound good, doesnt it?

^^ I'd buy that for a dollar!

Use it or lose it. Use it and GROW it! To paraphrase what a LDing friend once told me, "I'm going to be the guy in the old folks' home with a permanent smile on his face!"

Personally I think most "old age" ideas are complete nonsense and are based on how the majority of people simply don't take good care of themselves and therefore age badly, the sort of people that have trouble LDing because they have gotten older are the same kind of people that have trouble with a lot of other things such as basic health.

I mean look at old Buddhist monks, they might be over 70 but their minds are usually sharper than any 15 year old, or martial artists who stay agile and nimble while many in their 20s can barely bend over.

Growing old is not the problem.

Well I am 28 myself, and probably one of the "whippersnappers" :lol:, but I think one's attitude to one's own age greatly affects what you are able to do.
If you firmly believe that you can keep your lucidity frequency fairly constant and don't let old age intimidate you, it will certainly give you much better potential to keep becoming lucid.
I don't think your brain starts deteriorating to any dramatic extent until you are really old anyway, like 80 or something like that, and even then it's very likely that you can have frequent lucid dreams if you keep practising it.
It's true that old age has a negative effect on your memory, and therefore theoretically on your prospective memory and lucid dreaming ability, but I strongly believe that lucid dreams are highly beneficial and will keep you mentally young for a very long time - in fact, I consider lucid dreaming to be the mental equivalent to regular physical exercise.
I think we become kind of like children anew when we are lucid in dreams, since everything feels new and unexplored again.
This is probably why very small children always stare in amazement at everything and pay great attention to everything they experience - because everything is still new to them, and this is probably quite thrilling.
I believe we feel more or less the same way in lucid dreams.

I now see that I must be glad that I'm pickup lucid dreaming now I'm still 17 years old.
It is just awesome that people from 14 to 70 can all talk and discuss about the same subject.

I think it's more accurate, Yuusha, to say that old age *may* have negative effects on memory. My parents are avid readers and remain very active in the community, and are thus very mentally sharp in their mid-80s now. My mom is an avid crossword puzzle solver in addition. Definitely a case of "use it or lose it," for the mind and memory.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

I think it's more accurate, Yuusha, to say that old age *may* have negative effects on memory. My parents are avid readers and remain very active in the community, and are thus very mentally sharp in their mid-80s now. My mom is an avid crossword puzzle solver in addition. Definitely a case of "use it or lose it," for the mind and memory.

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Yes, true, you are right about that.
The brain is like a muscle itself, it remains sharp much longer if it is stimulated.

Personally I love math and physics, so I tend to spend a lot of time on that.

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Originally Posted by Yuusha

Yes, true, you are right about that.
The brain is like a muscle itself, it remains sharp much longer if it is stimulated.

Personally I love math and physics, so I tend to spend a lot of time on that.

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That's great! I love solving chess puzzles but haven't done that in a while.

I read somewhere, though, that to keep the mind fresh, simply reinforcing familiar paths is not enough -- you have to constantly be forging new neural connections via learning new sorts of things, things that take effort in the beginning. But certainly a stimulating activity, even if familiar, is better than nothing!

I've googled a very long time now and found different opinions:

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Older people tend to sleep less overall but sleep in REM for about the same absolute time, and therefore spend a greater proportion of sleep in REM.

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Source: Rapid eye movement sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Studies on the sleep habits of older Americans show an increase in the time it takes to fall asleep (sleep latency), an overall decline in REM sleep, and an increase in sleep fragmentation (waking up during the night) with age.

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Source: Aging & Sleep Information - National Sleep Foundation

What do you think is true?

It depends on the subjects observed. What were their overall early-life sleep habits? What were their diets like? How much exercise did they get? Did they meditate regularly? So many variables.

As for which of those sources is correct, check the source on Wikipedia. They may both be correct, based on the subjects studied.

In heaven you will be young forever. If you do lose it, you will get it back. Also, read about anti-aging. I plan on staying young.

Just a guess: more fragmented sleep may potentially be better for lucidity, keeping you closer to the waking state for longer periods of time (basically, more WBTB, which LDers try to do on purpose anyway).

But yeah, overall health, mental capacity, whether one meditates and is experienced in relaxation-for-sleep, etc.

@FryingMan

Thats a good guess. Even when the guess is wrong and older people have lower REM, one of the sources (which says that elderly people have a lower REM state) say its just a few percent (young adults should have 20% REM and elderly people 13-15% REM) so 5% is not that bad. And i really think that when iam in this age (now i´m 22 years old, so i think in 30 years) the medicine found a way to raise the REM sleep with pills. I mean why not, how hard can it be?

LD meetup? I need to look for one of those in GA. I'm just starting LDing at the age which shall not be mentioned (to steal Fryingman's stuff) so I hope to get better regardless of age.