Thread: Practicing illusory body for 30 days

Oh, no, I did get that. I was just pointing out that I think such moments are not harmful to the practice because they are not so "dream like." I don't really do this practice much anyway, other than occasional moments where I note that perception in waking and dreams is very similar.

^^ Then we are talking about two very different things. Never mind.

I think the most important part of the practice outlined in post #16 is karmic influences. In western words Causality. I see most benefits of this method in keeping mindful of causality and can picture scenarios where this understanding of causality leads to the familiair lucidity moment : "Eureka, I am awake in a dream!"

It doesn't even need to negate Sageous arguments with which I most certainly agree..

Couple of Walace quotes about illusionary form
"Padmasambhava is no speaking nihilistic ally-he is not telling us that nothing exists whatsoever. Rather he is inviting us to change our perspective on not only dream phemonena but waking experience as well"
"Padmasambhava is not inviting us to practice a self induced illusion. He is asking us to pull the rug out from under our habitual perspectives on what we are experiencing."

This follows from a detailed discussion of emptyness and a deconstruction of the sense of solidity that the waking perspective often entails.
This suggests it's not about convincing yourself that the waking state and ðreaming state are the same. But in so many ways they are both constructed from projections.

Regarding walking carefully in front of a bus, I don't think that's too challenging, follow your instincts and still notice how you construct reality. We encounter paradox all the time. In a similar way you could get tangled up in discussion between the relative and the absolute. Can't remember who said that you could be a fully enlightened master and still scream as the plane crashes

That said, holechek says this is a fake it till you make it practice, so I think in ways he suggests you DO consider things directly as a dream.
I don't know enough about this practice from experience yet, but I'm playing around with it more from reading this thread. Will post again on it. Best wishes

This conversation reminded me of a conversation in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, in which someone asks the "ruler of the universe" how he knows if his cat really exists, to which the man replies "I don't. I have no idea. It merely pleases me to behave in a certain way to what appears to be a cat."

In a similar way, we just respond in a certain way that feels appropriate to what we perceive to be an oncoming bus (or any other danger), even though the perceived danger and our response to it is all illusion.

This is a very interesting discussion.

I'm not sure what Wangyal would say about this critical moment that Sageous mentions, but I suspect it would not bother him a whole lot. Until we all exist in nondual awareness, we have to respect the limitations of the world we inhabit. This from the same chapter quoted by FryingMan, just a little bit further on:

There is one warning regarding this practice: it is important to take care of responsibilities and to respect the logic and limitations of conventional life. When you tell yourself that your waking life is a dream, this is true, but if you leap from a building you will still fall, not fly. If you do not go to work, the bills will go unpaid. Plunge your hand in a fire and you will be burned. It is important to remain grounded in the realities of the relative world in which we live, other sentient beings who are suffering, and consequences for the decisions we make.

I think that one can fully believe they are always dreaming, while at the same time understanding that life's concerns must be attended to. As Shunryu Suzuki says, duality is not one and it is not two. It is both one and two. But please, do not step out in front of the bus; you will die.

I have had four lucid dreams this week. In three of them I explicitly practiced this method, leading to lucidity. In the other, I spontaneously became lucid. In another non-lucid dream, I said, "This is a dream," and came to presence, but was not fully aware I was in the dream state. However, upon coming to presence, vividness and awareness increased dramatically. Once again, thank you for the comments and insights.

Thanks for the clarifying quote, I think that deals with the objections nicely.

Great about your progress! What was different in the non-lucid practice that led you to lucidity, vs. the waking practice?

Thanks, FryingMan. I'm not exactly sure I understand the question, but I'll give it a shot. There was no difference in the dreams as to what I did. The non-lucid dream ended swiftly after I said "this is a dream," but before that happened I realized my dead grandmother was present, which should be impossible, because she is dead. I think I figured out what was going on as the dream destabilized; I remember thinking "that was a dream." There was no difference between the practice in waking and dream.

It's kind of hard to put precisely into words what I'm asking...

Here are a few different attempts at what I'm asking:

+ Why do you attribute these lucids to this practice?

+ During the day you think "This is all a dream"…. During the dream you think "This is all a dream….hey wait, it IS a dream!?" what was the difference in "feeling" between the two that led to the "I really am dreaming" conclusion in the dream? Combination of factors? Or what?

+ Was it simply the wording "This is all a dream" hitting your brain, the word "dream" causing a spike in awareness/critical reflection? So more like incubation? Or was it the mindset that accompanied the wording?

Hey Fryingman,

The difference in feeling is similar to any other time I have been dreaming and realized it; something just feels different than normal. I attribute these LDs to this practice because I have been practicing frequently, and was practicing in the dreams when I became lucid. As for your third questions, probably a combination of things. In two, I said, "This is a dream," and so it was. In the others, I needed a little bit of an assist (in the NLD from my grandmother, and in another an RC). I'm sure it will be different depending on the moment and current level of self-awareness.

I hope that explains things a little better.

The discussion in this (fascinating) thread keeps reminding me of a famous quote by science fiction author Philip K. Dick:

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”

I've been thinking about this "illusory body" practice and I can't help but feel ambivalent about it. This is in part because it seems so easily misunderstood, requiring cautionary statements that it must not be taken to its natural extreme: we do things that would get us killed in dream-dreams all the time, but dear god, let's not start doing that sort of thing in the waking-life-dream! So if the practice can't be taken to its natural extreme, is it better than a metaphorical understanding?

I also feel that there's a fundamental distinction between dreams and waking life that it is not necessarily a good idea to blur: in waking life, we are surrounded by other dreamers, that is, people, agents with the same moral and ontological status as ourselves who have independent existence and dreams of their own. As far as I can tell (and I always operate within a margin of doubt), DCs appear to operate more on the level of representations. Out of a general sense of caution, and because I cannot prove these assumptions, I generally try to behave in dreams with scruples similar to those I hold in waking life, but I do not always treat DCs exactly like WL people, and I'm not convinced that the moral consequences of dream-behavior is identical to the moral consequences of the same behaviors in waking life. For this reason I find it useful to distinguish DCs from "real people," similar to the distinction I make in both attitude and behavior between "real people" and characters in a video game or RPG. If we insist on collapsing the distinction between dream and waking life, should we also collapse the distinction between waking life and other forms of representation, like films, games, etc? Should we operate with exactly the same moral behaviors in dreams and games as in waking life? This may sound like a "slippery slope" argument, but I believe it is actually an important ethical question.

If dreams really could be shared, that would completely change their moral status, in the same way that there are moral consequences to certain kinds of behavior in multiplayer games that are not relevant to single-player games.

If waking life is a dream, it is a shared one. In some sense, I'm not sure it isn't.

Is anyone here still practicing illusionary form regularly? If so I'd be curious to hear how your finding this practice, how it may have evolved for you and what you find yourself actually doing. I find the times I am doing it, it somewhat replaces my regular reality checks...I choose to think regularly "this is a dream". Then I reflect a bit on how my experience of there being a real and solid world "out there" is made up of my own projections. Photons enter my eyes, sound waves touch my ears and then the world "appears", as if this perception is actually the way the world is. Yet if I removed any of these senses for a length of time, the world would appear v different, or if I changed the filter I use for determining what is important, my experience would be completely different. Things appear solid yet are empty of the independence I project into them. Also when I find myself caught up in thought or daydreaming "in a world of my own", I consider how dreamlike this really is.
At times reflecting in this way can bring both a critical reflective attitude as well as an appreciation or consideration of the magic of this journey. Other times when I think the thought that this is a dream, it just stimulates a mild sense of doubt or disbelief about the reality of my experience (when I think of terms of psychology and the schizoid character type, I'm less sure this is s healthy practice).
In dream yoga, holechek seems to recommend this as being a central practice. I'm starting to work with it often enough. As such I'm curious to hear if it has become a regular practice for others

I haven't had much time to post, but I am still practicing regularly. I'm happy with the results. I'll try to update as soon as I have a better opportunity. I'm glad you're experiencing benefits from this practice, Patjunfa.

Hi Verre. I think the point is that dream is both same and different. Awareness is always present. How you relate to things is key. If you think conceptualized beings (either in waking or sleep) have inherent, independent meaning or existence, then this is incorrect--simply by virtue of the mass of memories (doctored, false, and otherwise) and preconceptions we bring to bear on each phenomenon we experience. This is what we do in dreams--we relate dualistically to phenomena (treating DCs like real people, even if it's only a dream, or imagining there is anything that can be "done" in a dream at all. Even regarding yourself as the dreaner, etc.) And so waking life and dreams are fundamentally the same. Killing a being in dream will of course have different consequences than killing someone in waking, but if someone believes their psyche does not condition itself through such an act (as in "killing someone in a dream has no effect on who I am and who I will become") then they are dreaming. This is why lucid dreaming can be transformative--because it transforms you. We still are responsible for the people we choose to become.

Interesting, I've actually done this before when I tried to merge dreams with waking life by deluding myself into believing that waking life was a dream. I ended up in a very dissociative state of mind, the line between the waking and dream world was blurred. It was a pleasant experience but I felt kind of delirious or somewhat groggy or foggy. Some of the aspects of dreaming self such as impaired memory/focus etc. carried over into the waking state. I can't recall exactly the impact it had on my lucids though.

That's interesting. I can't say I've experienced any cognitive impairment from this practice. If anything, it's made me more relaxed. Were you using any psychoactives/deliriants/hallucinogens while practicing, or have you had a history of dissociative psychological issues (depersonalization disorder, for starters)? I'm not sure how memory could be affected by identifying waking life as a dream.

Yeah I have schizophrenia and take antipsychotic meds for it. So I guess you could say I'm a pro when it comes to delusions LOL.

It was weird because when you try to imagine the waking life as just a dream, you're also imagining that people you meet, family members, etc. are just dream characters. It definitely made me live more in the moment and forget about the past, which is where the memory impairment came in. When I woke up each morning that was when the delusion was the strongest, because I would try to carry over that same dream state into my waking life each day.

That's a good description of what this exercise does: brings you you the now. Wangyal mentions that every time you say, "This is a dream, " the statement necessarily occurs in the present moment, and serves to bring you there over and over.

Not sure if anyone is still following this, but I'll post my final update and try to answer any questions.

In total, this month yielded 18 lucid dreams. I am not counting two (?) WILDs that ended prematurely during transition. The majority (15, 16?) occurred during late morning, and were DILDs.

Many occurred with me saying, "This is a dream," but some were the result of reality checking.

During my daily work, I have mostly dropped RCing and have instead simply been practicing illusory form. The last two weeks I have gotten relatively little sleep, but every so often an LD will sneak in. During the night, I dropped MILD as my main induction technique, and instead focused on SSILD or visualizing. Since little sleep was available, WBTB was not an option.

My psychological state has improved. I've been less driven to achieve LDs, but have appreciated them when they come. Less anxiety. I think my appreciation of waking life has improved as well--appreciating textures and sounds without worrying about my current state. Thank you again for giving me the opportunity to share this.

Oh, I'm certainly still following! That's a great result! 15-16 LDs, no WBTBs (YES!), and even on little sleep. Fabulous, sounds like heaven .
I think long-term updates are in order if you continue, to see if dropping RCs affects your frequency into the future. Less anxiety is great as well.

I'm with FM, keep it coming, ThreeCat!

Do you still RC if you notice something dreamlike or unusual? When I'm practicing this more fully it replaces habitual RC's but I still feel the need to RC if anything dreamlike happens..

I do still RC for dream signs or dreamlike moments. I am not RCing habitually, though, as you mention.

"Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you. "

It sounds like a disregard for "I think, therefor I am."... which I have a hard time disagreeing with. I'd say that self-awareness isn't completly possible without realizing that I'm able to think as an individual. Awareness based purely on sensory input, and by extention emotions, can only be part of selfawareness.

^^ You may have misinterpreted the meaning of my take on self-awareness, RiftMeUp.

Self-awareness for me is actually similar to the philosophy behind Descartes' famous quote. Rather than disregard it, I believe my stance acknowledges Descartes, but removes the potential for solipsistic interpretation of his quote by affirming that reality exists as well as you and your consciousness, and it is your interaction -- both physical and conscious -- with your local reality that fully defines you, and it. In the context of lucid dreaming, a stance like this is very helpful, given that in a dream you, your dreaming "reality," and that interaction are all one.

My take on self-awareness has little to nothing to do with sensory input (and by extension, emotions). In fact, I have always made a point of differentiating between self-awareness and "natural" awareness, which is the result of those things.

I don't think discussion of this belongs on 3Cat's thread, but if you're interested in a more extended version of how I see self-awareness -- especially in the context of lucid dreaming -- you might check out my Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals thread.