Question about belief in LD’ing

Ok so I understand that as part of the lucid mindset, you need to have confidence in your ability to LD as well -- knowing you can and will LD without a trace of doubt in your mind. This really makes sense, as your subconscious mind will likely fulfill your expectations in the absence of any “bad schema” which tells you that LD’ing is difficult (which is probably one of the biggest obstacles to lucidity -- your subconscious perceives it as being difficult).

But how does one just believe and know they will LD? It can be very difficult, especially if you haven’t had much success with it in the past. It may be a difficult question :lol: but could anyone offer any tips/ suggestions?

Just know that it's possible that during any dream you can realize you're dreaming, regardless of your ability.

I suppose that's worth thinking about. I actually had a similar idea recently that rather than try to have confidence in your own ability, maybe you could actually think that your dreams are supposed to be lucid, and that it's something everyone does naturally. So rather than getting caught up in doubts, you would still know you should be lucid. :)

It might make it a little easier to create the sense of "knowing". It's definitely worth a try.

Be careful with the word "should". This word can lead to a perfectionistic attitude which leads to stress/anger/frustration if you fail which can have a negative effect on your dreaming.

Dreams are basically just illusions that happen while you're in bed. All you have to do is be aware of them while they're happening. How hard can that be!?

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Originally Posted by Eamo24

But how does one just believe and know they will LD? It can be very difficult, especially if you haven’t had much success with it in the past. It may be a difficult question :lol: but could anyone offer any tips/ suggestions?

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I think the best answer for this is sort of a catch-22: the best way to have full belief that you can LD is by successfully having a few LD's. With experience comes the sense that it is obvious you can LD (because you did), so 100% belief that you can LD tonight is certainly achievable... and as experience piles up, you will eventually be able to believe with confidence that you will LD tonight.

You can also tap that belief even during dry spells: because you LD'd in your past, you can go to bed with confidence that "tonight" you will LD because you already know you can do it; it seems to me that conjuring that kind of belief is just as easy as being negative about it (i.e., "hoping" you might LD tonight, or, worse, being sure you won't LD tonight).

I think your question of how best to frame becoming lucid dreaming so as to maximize the odds of becoming lucid is an important one, Eamo. The best frame will undoubtedly vary between individuals, and I certainly think it would be a worthwhile endeavor to experiment with different lenses to find what works best for you.

I might question, however, how useful it is to, in some sense, "lie" to yourself about the naturalness of lucid dreaming in attempt to induce lucidity more often. For almost all of us lucid dreaming is difficult. It takes a lot of hard work in terms of waking time spent recording dreams, and general training of the mind in the form of cultivating new mindsets, rehearsing mantras, becoming more generally self-aware or what have you. I don't think there's any doubt that a confident mindset is conducive to lucid dreaming, but I believe there is psychological research suggesting that novices at any given task who set their expectations too high too early, are likely to become frustrated with themselves. And a long similar lines, I believe it is well documented that we learn best when attempting to do something that is just slightly beyond our means, which again would suggest to me that telling yourself "lucid dreaming is easy and natural, I should be lucid all the time", might not be the most productive way to improve.

I guess you're right, Dolphin; probably best not to expect too much, but maybe that you are supposed to become lucid in your dreams but not to be disappointed if it doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by dolphin

Dreams are basically just illusions that happen while you're in bed. All you have to do is be aware of them while they're happening. How hard can that be!?

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Ha yes, it does sound simple. :wink: For the last few weeks (on and off) I've been sort of trying to adopt that mindset, thinking "lucid dreaming is easy! I do this every night!" I would even try to plan the LD in advance for when I become lucid. It hasn't really been working though, I think there's still a little doubt that I need to eradicate. I'll continue to work on it (hopefully my subconscious will eventually believe me ;) ).

Very interesting points, PresentMoment; thanks for that.

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Originally Posted by PresentMoment

I think your question of how best to frame becoming lucid dreaming so as to maximize the odds of becoming lucid is an important one, Eamo. The best frame will undoubtedly vary between individuals, and I certainly think it would be a worthwhile endeavor to experiment with different lenses to find what works best for you.

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Yes I agree. I do think that things such as attitude, mindset, belief etc. don't really get much attention (even though they are probably the most important aspects of LD'ing), but it definitely makes sense to find a fitting approach to it, which suits the individual.

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Originally Posted by PresentMoment

I might question, however, how useful it is to, in some sense, "lie" to yourself about the naturalness of lucid dreaming in attempt to induce lucidity more often. For almost all of us lucid dreaming is difficult. It takes a lot of hard work in terms of waking time spent recording dreams, and general training of the mind in the form of cultivating new mindsets, rehearsing mantras, becoming more generally self-aware or what have you. I don't think there's any doubt that a confident mindset is conducive to lucid dreaming, but I believe there is psychological research suggesting that novices at any given task who set their expectations too high too early, are likely to become frustrated with themselves. And a long similar lines, I believe it is well documented that we learn best when attempting to do something that is just slightly beyond our means, which again would suggest to me that telling yourself "lucid dreaming is easy and natural, I should be lucid all the time", might not be the most productive way to improve.

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This does make sense. In the time I've been trying to "convince" myself about how easy LD'ing is, I've actually had very little success. To be honest, I have found that trying to create this mindset that LD'ing is so easy, does feel just like "lying" because I know I don't LD every night; and it would sometimes feel like I was outright pretending rather than having genuine sense of confidence. So I guess just going a little beyond your means, as you say, would be a better approach. ;)

The way I do it, is I see it a little bit as if you were in a city you don't know and you're trying to get to your hotel. You have no idea how you will get there but that doesn't matter, you just will (and it's true). So I just tell myself I am going to lucid dream and if I don't, it's like I didn't quite get to the hotel, but I just need to ask someone else for direction (try the next day), and I'm just getting closer no matter what. There is no stress, I am enjoying all the non-lucids on the way, and my waking life too, just like a tourist can enjoy all the things he didn't plan to see when he got lost. So, there's no stress, but there's confidence, that you will end up to the hotel after your detour.

Metaphors really help me believe/genuinely feel certain emotional states.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

The way I do it, is I see it a little bit as if you were in a city you don't know and you're trying to get to your hotel. You have no idea how you will get there but that doesn't matter, you just will (and it's true). So I just tell myself I am going to lucid dream and if I don't, it's like I didn't quite get to the hotel, but I just need to ask someone else for direction (try the next day), and I'm just getting closer no matter what. There is no stress, I am enjoying all the non-lucids on the way, and my waking life too, just like a tourist can enjoy all the things he didn't plan to see when he got lost. So, there's no stress, but there's confidence, that you will end up to the hotel after your detour.

Metaphors really help me believe/genuinely feel certain emotional states.

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Nice comparison, Occipitalred! That’s a great way to think of it -- to just enjoy the “journey” and you will eventually get there. Interestingly, I have noticed in the past that when I stop trying to LD and stop stressing out over it, then I have an LD! So I can see how this would be a better approach, making incremental changes here and there and just going with the flow of the process, but most of all not trying too much to get there.

Metaphors really help me too! :)

Thanks, Sageous, that really helps!

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Originally Posted by Sageous

I think the best answer for this is sort of a catch-22: the best way to have full belief that you can LD is by successfully having a few LD's. With experience comes the sense that it is obvious you can LD (because you did), so 100% belief that you can LD tonight is certainly achievable... and as experience piles up, you will eventually be able to believe with confidence that you will LD tonight.

You can also tap that belief even during dry spells: because you LD'd in your past, you can go to bed with confidence that "tonight" you will LD because you already know you can do it; it seems to me that conjuring that kind of belief is just as easy as being negative about it (i.e., "hoping" you might LD tonight, or, worse, being sure you won't LD tonight).

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Now this does make sense. Thus far, I have managed to accumulate around 30 LD’s, so I’m pretty sure I can do it, I guess it’s just that confidently knowing that I can LD on any given night goes a little beyond my “can do” capacity (at the moment at least). But I can definitely see how experience of having LD’s could add to this, increasing your self-efficacy and genuine belief -- just like with anything in waking-life perhaps.

But that’s certainly something to think about -- knowing that I have had LD’s in the past so I must be able to do it again (I don’t know why I didn’t think of that before :lol:). It’s probably best to wield genuine confidence in light of having achieved those LD’s rather than create a falsehood that I can LD all the time, as I’m most likely not at that level yet. My subconscious tends to see right through it anyway! ;)

You don't need to lie to yourself to get it right. You really can become lucid based off of your belief in yourself. Lucid dreaming is so easy. Think about it like this if you need help thinking that: You have many dreams every night and it only takes 1 SINGLE THOUGHT to make you lucid. Really, it's nowhere near as hard as most oneironauts seem to make it. Also, Lucid Dreaming can work in the very same way that people use natural alarm clocks. I've done it before and I know others have too: Before you go to sleep at night you set an intention to wake up at a very specific time. Then you go to sleep and before you know it you've awoken at the exact time you wanted to without any alarm clocks.
I once did an experiment(last summer I think) where for 3 days, right before bed I would set an extremely strong intention to become lucid in every single dream of the night. I became lucid at least twice every one of those nights. And that was when I was a beginning lucid dreamer. Destroy those bad schemas that say you can't do it. I mean really, it's your dreams, what's so hard about simply realizing that you are dreaming? Many make it into an extensive effort when it doesn't need to be! I know I'm probably going to get some hate for this post haha.

Lots of good advice in this thread! Another thing that might help is not to focus exclusively on dreams, but also attend to other phases of sleep. Do your best to observe the process of falling asleep and to remember to pay attention to the experience of waking up. See to what extent you can maintain some thread of awareness during dreamless sleep. Dream awareness may be the goal, but the more aware you are of all the various stages of sleep, the more achievable it will be.

OneUp

Thanks for the advice! When you put it like that it does make it sound easy, just ONE THOUGHT in the entire night -- surely I can manage that! ;-) That’s an interesting approach you mentioned of setting an intention to become lucid in every dream of the night, it sounds like a type of MILD but even better, because you’re probably creating an even higher chance of becoming lucid rather than focusing on one dream after a WBTB etc. I’ll be sure to try that out.

Yes I’m really under the impression that it is this “bad schema” which prevents lucidity much of the time. I’ve had LD’s in the past without much effort -- probably from not thinking negatively about it, but rather expecting that my daytime work would pay off. Got to “unlearn” those notions that it’s difficult. ;)

Verre

Good idea! I guess you could also treat it as a sort of game -- "I wonder how conscious I can be in my sleep tonight" and just try to do this rather than focusing too much on an LD specifically. I've had some near WILD's but a few DEILDs and I think it does help as you get a feeling for what it's like to be asleep/waking etc.

I'm surprised no one has said anything about intention. If you set your intention before sleeping it will greatly improve your chances of becoming lucid. Think to yourself "I will lucid dream tonight" and put power into that thought. Try to turn that thought into a memory the same way you would intentionally remember where you put your car keys. Create a mental hook, make space for it in your mind and let it sink in. Know that tomorrow you will wake up having had a lucid dream because you set the intention. It's very similar to belief except in this case you are using your own willpower to make it happen.

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Originally Posted by Eonnn

I'm surprised no one has said anything about intention. If you set your intention before sleeping it will greatly improve your chances of becoming lucid. Think to yourself "I will lucid dream tonight" and put power into that thought. Try to turn that thought into a memory the same way you would intentionally remember where you put your car keys. Create a mental hook, make space for it in your mind and let it sink in. Know that tomorrow you will wake up having had a lucid dream because you set the intention. It's very similar to belief except in this case you are using your own willpower to make it happen.

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They're some great tips, Eonnn, thanks. :)

The thing is, though, for the last while I had been doing something very similar to setting intention at night. Just like you've said, I would think "I will LD tonight" (similar to MILD) and even plan what I would do in the LD. But after having been pretty consistent with it, it hasn't resulted in any LD's. This led me to think that maybe belief was more important than setting intention, or that maybe belief is intention, as some people can LD just because they know they can.

That does make sense though, about using your own willpower to help things along. But could I ask, the "intent" approach as you've outlined has worked for me on a small number of occasions, but the vast majority of the time it doesn't. Is it that the intent has to be very strong? Or maybe you can't have other thoughts on your mind at the same time etc? I'm just not sure if I'm doing it right.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Eonnn

I'm surprised no one has said anything about intention.

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I did. :). However, you have to know how to really set an intention. As said in "A Field Guide to Lucid Dreaming" a strong intention is "filled with passion, what dream author Robert Moss calls juice. It should be soaked in electricity, powered by excitement".
The book continued on to provide 4 Key Points for a proper intention setup:

1. Word is key- Be highly specific. Create short powerful statements that focus on your desire. These can be affirmations. Phrase your intention in present tense as if it has already occurred. Thinking in present tense eliminates any doubt that your wish will come true. Example: "I am Lucid and aware in my dream".
2. Feel it, See it- Words are meaningless unless you actually feel them. When you state your intention, picture your desire coming true- actually imagine yourself in a dream realizing that its a dream. Feel what that sensation is like. Engage in all your 5 senses when imagining to take it to a further level.

3. Expectation- An advanced lucid dreamer doesn't just go to sleep hoping that a spontaneous lucid dream will happen. Instead, he goes to bed looking for a lucid dream. He expects to wake up in his dream that night.

4. Make it your dominant thought- Concentrate on your intention before you go to sleep. Let it be the last thing you think about before going under.

From my experience, this process works great. I have resulted in many LDs (to no surprise) because of straight intention. Many people think intention is just creating a strong desire for something. While that is true, you can see that there is alot more to intention than that.

Yes like OneUp described, it has to be a strong intention. You need to believe whole heartedly that it will happen. Like placing all your bets on the table you go "all in" having complete faith in your intention.

An example of intention working is when I was younger having a recurring nightmare. I said to myself the day before "I know this will happen again tonight but this time I won't be afraid". Sure enough the nightmare happened again and I remembered my intention enabling me to become lucid.

But the good thing about intention is that you don't necessarily need to remember it for it to work. A strong intention can trigger a lucid dream on its own accord.

Eonnn & OneUp,

Ah I see. I think I get it now. That’s very helpful info guys, thanks! :)

That's a great procedure you've outlined, OneUp. Actually when I think about it...

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Originally Posted by OneUp

4. Make it your dominant thought- Concentrate on your intention before you go to sleep. Let it be the last thing you think about before going under.

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^^this step is something I probably haven't been doing. I would usually set the intention at night -- try to completely believe it will work, plan the LD etc. but I would then find myself daydreaming or thinking about anything else other than LD’ing! Or sometimes if I have other things on my mind I find it difficult to make it the dominant thought, as well concentrating on it until falling asleep. Guess I need to work on that! :lol: