Which is better for induction - critical-awareness or self-awareness?

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Originally Posted by DreamBrandt

"Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you."

I think that's more in the realm of dream control than anything else. You can meet that condition, but without knowing the rules and circumstances it means almost nothing.

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Well, no, not exactly. Self-awareness is certainly important for dream control, but that definition really has nothing to do with self-awareness as a technique for dream control (Once more, self-awareness is not a technique). When you are self-aware in a dream there is no need to know the rules or circumstances because you know that the entire dream is You, and (as you mention below) there are no rules and the circumstances are understood as given without a thought.

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Sure I may be aware that I am here, that I have an effect of everything ect ect, but am I aware of the rules? The rules being I can do almost anything I want, including things that defy logic. The circumstances being that I am asleep, currently dreaming.

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Again, to say that the rules are that there are no rules doesn't really make sense; perhaps to say that you understand that all the rules are a product of your own mind and thus limited only by your imagination might make more sense. And yes, a major part of self-awareness is that it gives you the capacity to know, without thinking about it, that you are currently dreaming and that your sleeping body is somewhere else. I'm not sure you can do this without being self-aware.

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Knowledge of the rules and circumstances are what make lucid dreaming lucid dreaming.
Dumbed down, this translates to: Being aware that you are in a dream is what makes you lucid dream.

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Yes, being aware that you are in a dream is indeed what makes you lucid dream, and that awareness is generated by the presence of your waking-life self-awareness.

That said, I think -- and have seen -- that it is very easy to have a non-lucid dream where you are dreaming about being aware that you are in a lucid dream, and doing lots of lucid things, all without ever being lucid. I think this is a fairly common occurrence, where people think about being lucid all day, so their dreaming mind obliges by giving them a "lucid" dream, all without the dreamer ever actually knowing they are dreaming. [I address this bit much more clearly (or at least in a more lengthy manner) in an old thread called A Treatise on Proof, if you're interested. You might enjoy it!]

Truly "knowing" that you are dreaming -- and sustaining that knowledge -- comes by bringing your waking-life self-awareness into a dream. In other words, you cannot truly know that you are dreaming unless your waking-life self (rather than your dream character "you") is able to do the knowing, and that takes self-awareness.

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It may seem redundant, but then again, just like "self-awareness", "lucid dreaming" is self explanatory.

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Actually it's not. If the term "lucid dreaming" were self-explanatory, then lucidity would involve or require lots of brightness or light, and it doesn't... funny thing is, many people do believe that a lucid dream must be a vivid one as well, mostly because of the fact that the term "lucid dreaming" is not self-explanatory. Also, I'm not sure I remember this correctly, but the term "lucidity" relates in this context to enlightenment, which -- wait for it -- is essentially being self-aware.

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While I am in a dream, lucid or not, I am usually aware of the fact that I exist and I can control myself. Because of this, practicing self awareness seems pointless.

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If you are not lucid then, by definition, the only existence you are aware of is your dream body's existence, and you accept your existence in your dreamworld as real. If you are aware of your true, waking-life existence, which includes remembering where your sleeping body is and you can access memories not included in the dream schema, then you are lucid... so if that's the case, then you are lucid in every dream. If you just mean that you can move about and that you are conscious in a NLD, then that is true for all of us.

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It's like saying that before I can learn to ride a bike I should practice breathing first.

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No, it is not. And for what it's worth you certainly cannot learn to ride a bike if you are not breathing.

You know what? Given the number of LD's you list in your profile, I think I'll just assume that we are both talking about generally the same thing but are using different terms or concepts with which both of us are unwilling to part, so it might be best if we stop here. Besides, I think we've sort of left the topic.


:cheers:

I can see your point.

What you mean is that lucid dreaming is only possible with the existence of the waking self.
Now that I think about it, I want to agree, but I'd be lying if I said I never had a lucid dream in which I had no recollection or memory of waking self.

Guess it really comes down to your definition of lucidity. I can become aware I am dreaming with no thought, just pure feeling of knowing.

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Originally Posted by DreamBrandt

Guess it really comes down to your definition of lucidity. I can become aware I am dreaming with no thought, just pure feeling of knowing.

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... and that "pure feeling of knowing" is fueled by the presence of your self-awareness; no thought or induction necessary. Many thousands of my own LD's started that way, so I know what you mean (and for what it's worth, I never gave self awareness any conscious consideration for more than 20 years). Self-awareness does not require thought, and it is not a technique. It is just you, for real.

... this belated thought came to me this morning, and I figured it wouldn't hurt to add it in...

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Originally Posted by Sageous

You know what? Given the number of LD's you list in your profile, I think I'll just assume that we are both talking about generally the same thing but are using different terms or concepts with which both of us are unwilling to part, so it might be best if we stop here. Besides, I think we've sort of left the topic.


:cheers:

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I think this is the difficulty in dreaming discussions (and indeed any philosophical, literary, or scientific discussion). A second difficulty is that people frame these elusive concepts differently, even using the same terms. Just look at the threads where two sides vociferously argue that WRT dream control, "expectation is everything" vs. "expectation is nothing, it's all about archetypes/schemas" I think that's a great example of the same thing.

And indeed I may enter the same traps, but I'll try to make some points.

The more I think about the statement that self-awareness means "(1)being aware that you are here, (2) that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you" combined with "self-awareness *is* lucidity" and with my experience so far with lucid dreaming, the less I'm inclined to agree with them as-is.

The problem is that to me, in my experience, and in what these terms mean to me, conditions (1) and (2) can be satisfied in either the dream or the waking state, without the notion of the dreaming/waking state coming up at all in my mind.

In my dreams, I have very clearly had numerous examples of (1): a completely compelling feeling of presence and "being here" indistinguishable from the same experience in the waking state.

In dreams, there is the experience of cause and effect, of action and reaction, all the time. I fail to see how this is any different from condition (2). I suppose it comes down to a much deeper discussion of what "effect" is, but to me: if I "feel" it, it is "effecting" me, and if I observe my actions "changing" the environment, I am "effecting" things around me.

In my framing of lucidity, I think the fundamental building blocks are (note that these apply equally well to waking state lucidity or dream state lucidity).

(1) *I* am *here*, *now*
(2) I know/*remember* that consciousness exists in either the waking or the dream state, and that conscious experience in these states is characterized by various phenomena behaving differently
(3) I *intend*/*remember* to *recognize* my state (intent, memory)

It is entirely possible that my #2-3 and Sageous's #2 are entirely equivalent, yet using different words to express the "gut feeling" of the same thing. Sageous's #2 wording just doesn't really resonate with me I've found.

Note that all of my 1-3 can also be "felt" in an instant flash, they do not necessarily require seconds of thinking to evaluate.

^^ I think the rest of your post confirmed your first paragraph, FryingMan; we are indeed all talking about the same things. Self-awareness just seems to be morphing into an unpopular or unwanted term these days, so other terms must be introduced to mask its presence in LD'ing. Anyway:

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

The problem is that to me, in my experience, and in what these terms mean to me, conditions (1) and (2) can be satisfied in either the dream or the waking state, without the notion of the dreaming/waking state coming up at all in my mind.

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Yes they can be satisfied in either the dream or the waking state, and of course they can. Why would your daytime self-awareness be different from your dreamtime self-awareness?

Also, as I must have said a hundred times on these forums: unless you are an extremely advanced practitioner, self-awareness by itself will not make you lucid... you still must do other things to become lucid, like developing memory and expectation/intention -- and of course utilizing techniques.

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In my dreams, I have very clearly had numerous examples of (1): a completely compelling feeling of presence and "being here" indistinguishable from the same experience in the waking state.

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As it should be. Why do you have a problem with this?

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In dreams, there is the experience of cause and effect, of action and reaction, all the time. I fail to see how this is any different from condition (2). I suppose it comes down to a much deeper discussion of what "effect" is, but to me: if I "feel" it, it is "effecting" me, and if I observe my actions "changing" the environment, I am "effecting" things around me.

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There is no difference from "condition 2," FryingMan; you're the one who presupposed two distinct conditions, not me! ;) In dreams, when self aware you know that all cause and effect is your doing, or the doing of your dreaming mind. For me this sort of knowledge is profound. And, if you start assuming that there is a cause and effect in your dreams that occurs without your dreaming mind's input, then you are starting down a path towards lost lucidity. Assuming that there is an actual cause and effect in dreams -- that what you are experiencing is "real," or inevitable, is probably not the best stance for lucidity.

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In my framing of lucidity, I think the fundamental building blocks are (note that these apply equally well to waking state lucidity or dream state lucidity).

(1) *I* am *here*, *now*
(2) I know/*remember* that consciousness exists in either the waking or the dream state, and that conscious experience in these states is characterized by various phenomena behaving differently
(3) I *intend*/*remember* to *recognize* my state (intent, memory)

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I think that, without the presence of self-awareness, those building blocks could exist just as well in a NLD as a LD. Also, consciousness exists whether you are lucid or not; I'm not sure whether recognizing it would really make a difference... unless of course your self-aware, lucid self is the one doing the remembering (which, again, ties into everything I've been saying). Also, I wonder if characterizing the dream state and the waking state as being "characterized by various phenomena behaving differently"is such a good idea, because it lends power to the dream environment, making it something bigger than you, and once your dreamworld outpaces your understanding that it all comes from you, you are heading rapidly for non-lucidity.

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It is entirely possible that my #2-3 and Sageous's #2 are entirely equivalent, yet using different words to express the "gut feeling" of the same thing.

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Aside from what I said above, they essentially are.

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Sageous's #2 wording just doesn't really resonate with me I've found.

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Again, it is not my #2, but yours; I was using different terms in an attempt to describe the exact same thing.

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Note that all of my 1-3 can also be "felt" in an instant flash, they do not necessarily require seconds of thinking to evaluate.

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Of course it does; that's how self-awareness works.

Essentially, FryinMan, we are talking about the same thing. I'm not sure where the current wave of rejection of self-awareness (and the rest of the fundamentals, to a lesser degree) began, but it certainly seems to be in full force at this point. I guess the fundamentals' brief moment in the sun on DV is heading for a close, and we'll be back to 100% techniques once more... that oughta save me some time in the future!

I'm at work so can't give a comprehensive response, but absolutely nowhere in my message do I "reject" self-awareness or fundamentals! I just think that state awareness is a fundamental itself, not necessarily tied in lockstep to self-awareness. I see all the fundamentals as being connected by variably-stretchy cords: they affect one another in a magnitude that varies according to somewhat mysterious conditions

And yes my 1-2-3 list is missing "actually recognizing my current state".

Your phrasing in the Q&A answer today Of "what does self-awareness feel like" was great ((1) I am here, interacting with my local reality, with a sense of importance). I just think that it is state-awareness of the dream state that gives the further "(2) this experience is all in my mind" rather than self-awareness.

The reason I say that is that I have experienced (1) countless times in non-lucid dreams. I felt like "me" entirely. And it seems like "self-awareness" ought to encompass "feeling like me."

So in summary, I prefer to separate state awareness from self-awareness, and you seem to bundle them together. Neither I think is "right" or "wrong", just a personal framing of the complex multi-faceted factors that make up awareness, plus preference for term usage.

I think BTW the others in this thread who rated "critical awareness" (I'd call this state awareness, or perhaps describe it as a component of state awareness) higher than "self-awareness" share a similar point of view.

Both are required for lucidity.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

I'm at work so can't give a comprehensive response, but absolutely nowhere in my message do I "reject" self-awareness or fundamentals!

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Yeah, sorry about that bit about rejection; I should've known better than to say that to you, of all people -- I just seem to be defending the importance of self-awareness to LD'ing fairly frequently lately.

At the risk of repetition, here are few more thoughts/responses (sorry in advance for the parsing, BTW):

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I just think that state awareness is a fundamental itself, not necessarily tied in lockstep to self-awareness. I see all the fundamentals as being connected by variably-stretchy cords: they affect one another in a magnitude that varies according to somewhat mysterious condition

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State awareness is certainly a vital aspect of LD'ing. That is why I think RC's (aka, state tests) are so important. But is it fundamental, or is it just a subset or perhaps a process of self-awareness? I'm not sure.

For instance, you do not need to do a RC to transition from NLD to LD; indeed, I believe RC's only work in a dream after you've begun to question your surroundings (thanks to the presence of your self-awareness). If state awareness was fundamental, wouldn't RC's always work, even when not lucid at all? And yet they do not: you can dream that you are doing a RC very easily, and then dream that it failed, making you assume that you are in reality and not dreaming. In other words, your state awareness is a product of your conscious condition in a dream: if you are self-aware, you are also aware of your state, if you are not self-aware, then state awareness is whatever your dreaming minds deems it to be.

That said, state awareness is critical during those first few seconds of lucidity. You must know, and know quickly, that you are dreaming in order to fully charge your lucidity. It is not so much moving in lockstep with self-awareness, but it certainly marches in the same column... I never said otherwise (or at least didn't mean to).

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Your phrasing in the Q&A answer today Of "what does self-awareness feel like" was great ((1) I am here, interacting with my local reality, with a sense of importance). I just think that it is state-awareness of the dream state that gives the further "(2) this experience is all in my mind" rather than self-awareness.

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I suppose that state awareness would be the tool you would use to register that "all this is in my mind," but self-awareness is necessary, I think, to grasp that concept and take it beyond the "Ah-Ha" moment and into a proper lucid dream.

I think my problem with state awareness, and why these responses here seem so stilted, is that to me state awareness is not a condition of consciousness unto itself at all, but simply regular awareness being referenced by your self-aware self. Because of this I don't think it ought to be added to the LDing lexicon, since that might only float a whole new raft of "state awareness" techniques that further complicate the path to lucidity and give dreamers yet another conscious condition to worry about. I would stick to calling the results of RC's simply "awake" or "dreaming," I think... I'm guessing you disagree with that!

So: State awareness matters, sure, but it only matters when waking-life self-awareness is present.

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The reason I say that is that I have experienced (1) countless times in non-lucid dreams. I felt like "me" entirely. And it seems like "self-awareness" ought to encompass "feeling like me."

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Of course you've felt like you in dreams, as have the rest of us, every night!

What else would you feel like than "you" in a dream? "Feeling like me" has very little to do with self-awareness, or else we would all be fully self-aware during every waking moment, right? Don't we always feel like ourselves when awake? Your dreaming mind does a very good job creating your dream character "you," and a major part of that is your body feeling pretty much normal, as it would during waking-life.

I think self-awareness, as I describe it and as it pertains to/equals lucidity, transcends the natural awareness that we have for our body (including basic consciousness). Yes, you are aware that you are feeling like you, but when self-aware you are also aware of the presence of your body and mind, plus you are aware of your existence, your identity (with the help of memory), your past, your place in reality, and probably some other things as well.

So: Sure self-awareness encompasses "feeling like me," but it encompasses much more than that. Plus, the lack of self-awareness also encompasses "feeling like me," or else we would all be fully self aware throughout waking-life.

[EDIT: Also, "I am here, interacting with my local reality, with a sense of importance," has a significant bit tagged on the end that I did not say, or at least mean: that sense of importance. The actual quote, "...that involvement feels important" should not have implied a feeling of self-importance. When self-aware, you actually must take a moment to gather your significance, to make yourself matter in the larger swirl of reality in which you swim. noting your own self-importance is a fairly non-lucid thing to do. In NLD's that sense of importance tends to be pretty normal, given that the dream schemata have been designed specifically for your consumption. I may have misunderstood you, but in case I didn't, I thought I'd belatedly throw in this thought.]

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So in summary, I prefer to separate state awareness from self-awareness, and you seem to bundle them together. Neither I think is "right" or "wrong", just a personal framing of the complex mufti-faceted factors that make up awareness, plus preference for term usage.

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Agreed. The bundling, for me, is important, though, because it helps keep things simple. However, I can see that we generally agree and the rest is just words.

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I think BTW the others in this thread who rated "critical awareness" (I'd call this state awareness, or perhaps describe it as a component of state awareness) higher than "self-awareness" share a similar point of view. Both are required for lucidity.

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Agreed again, and I'm pretty sure I already said the same above.

All I was really saying, in the end, was that self-awareness is not a technique but the actual state of mind you are pursuing when seeking lucidity. To reduce your very goal in all this to just another technique or tool is simply not helpful.

None is better in my experience. The best induction is lucidity itself. There's no such thing as 'working on higher lucidity'. You become lucid and nothing else. Get rid of fear to become lucid... analyzing, breaking down, planning, trying to do step by step, being logical are forms of doubt and fear. Let go of all preconceptions and be the inner child. Enjoy dreaming itself and fill yourself up with wonders of dream world, because dream is magical in the first place. Then lucidity/awareness will naturally follow.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Of course you've felt like you in dreams, as have the rest of us, every night!

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Not like how I mean. It's all dependent on the degree and perhaps a bit of semantics and how you define it. One could otherwise say we're all lucid in dreams every night, just normally the lucidity is so low we don't notice.

I certainly don't have dreams where I'm "someone else", but the sense of fullness of "me-ness" sits along a very broad spectrum from almost-none-at-all-near-mindless-observer to "yup, this is the full me, participating, observing, thinking, responding," etc. I've observed the progression of the frequency of the high-end of the spectrum "I am here" dreams over the years of my practice. With better recall and being farther down the road of daytime awareness work, they become more and more frequent.

I guess my point is that the levels of the awarenesses of the form "I am here, interacting with my local environment, in ways that are important to me" and "I recognize that this is a dream" can vary independently. I've had dreams where I knew it was a dream but was fairly far from "being myself" and likewise dreams where I felt fully "me, I am here, etc." but had low or no inkling that I was in a dream.

That's why it makes sense to me to separate the notions, but I understand the notion of keeping them together as well.

Whether or not people will take up the banner of "dream awareness techniques" is not relevant. LD teachers could choose not to introduce these topics as separate aspects of "self-awareness" to beginners for the sake of simplicity, but that again doesn't really have an impact on the discussion.