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Hey guys
We know very little about lucid dreaming and even less about how "techniques" are supposed to work.
What is your idea about RCing ? Does it even make sense ? Why or why not ? How does it help achieve lucidity, if any ?
I know this may sound like a strange question, but let's question and admit that perhaps we do not really know for sure
I will share my opinion later on the thread, if it brings discussion
I personally don't do reality checks because they don't tend to carry over to my dreams (for me at least). Additionally, even if they do appear in our dreams, there's no guarantee that it will result in lucidity, especially if one does reality checks on autopilot. Not really a fan of waiting for lucid dreams to come to me either; I'd much rather go for it instead of waiting and hoping to get lucid.
During a dream, when we cannot confirm we are dreaming, we are not fully lucid. The dream state can sometimes can be confused with the waking state, so sometimes during a dream, we have not confirmed whether we are awake or dreaming. In these cases, reality checks can help us confirm that we are dreaming, so that we can become fully lucid.
That said, there are some obstacles that can keep us from doing effective reality checks in dreams. During the dream, we might not care whether we are awake or dreaming and thus feel no need to do a reality check, we might do a reality check on autopilot as vbflame says, resulting in us doing a reality check without truly checking if we are awake or dreaming, or we might do a reality check with a strong assumption that we are awake, resulting in a biased check.
These obstacles can be difficult to overcome. Overcoming them requires manipulating motivations or assumptions, which requires self-awareness and self-control, which can be difficult things to develop.
I find it that doing reality checks helps put you into that lucid dreaming mindset, whether they carry over in dreams or not. As long as I do at least a few during the day, that shows that I have dreaming at the back of my mind.
The desire to have lucid dreams will then show up in dreams, while not necessarily the reality check itself. It will be an extra point if the RC is also done upon encountering a dream sign. All in all, I find doing these to be beneficial :).
^^That.
RC's do not make you lucid; they confirm lucidity.
You really cannot honestly do a RC in a dream unless you already think you are dreaming (aka, have some lucidity). If you are not lucid, then you are simply dreaming that you are doing a RC, and its result will be whatever your dreaming mind offers (i.e., you could very well have a NLD about your RC failing and your DC you will assume it is lucid, even though you never really are - or, on the other hand, you might dream that the RC has proven that you are not sleeping)). Oh, and as long as I'm here: that whole "seeing something odd and then doing a RC to make you lucid" thing is also not a thing, because there is nothing odd in a NLD, ever. If you see something odd in a dream, then you are already at least slightly lucid, and doing the RC only serves to confirm and perhaps amplify that lucidity.
All that said, RC's may be the most valuable technique we have in our lucidity toolbox. This is because, as NyxCC just said, when practiced sincerely during the day, RC's do quite a bit to help you establish that lucid mindset you need to notice that you are dreaming during a dream. If you keep your RC simple, and maybe follow up each one you do with some thoughts about dreaming, you will be helping to prepare your mind to have a desire to be aware during the dream (that really needed a whole lot more words to explain).
Remember also that RC stands for Reality Check; not Dream Check. It was meant from the get-go to confirm that you are awake, and not dreaming.
My own opinion goes along with you NyxCC
Vbfame said he does not RC because it does not carry into his dreams ? Are RCs supposed to be carried over into the dreaming mind as a habit ? Or are they, as has been suggested, supposed to carry the topic of lucid dreaming into the dreaming mind ? Or both/neither ?
Can we get to a consensus on the fact that RCing is not done meant to be habitual but as an expression of voluntary and deliberate intention ?
Can we get to the consensus that it is impossible and probably insane to suspect one is dreaming while in the awake state and that RC are not for cultivating a critical attitude ?
And i would add that RC is also a strong simulation of the beginning of a lucid dream, when we usually perform them. And by simulating it we are recreating lucidity and the feeling of it.
Hi VagalTone. I think your original question is slightly mis-aimed. Why practice reality checks (I prefer the term "state test" -- what state am I in right now: waking or dreaming?)? Well, I assume the goal for most people on dreamviews is to explore the dream world while lucid. To be lucid means to be aware -- in our context here, aware of your present state. As Sageous says, self-aware. To be lucid in the dream state, IMHO, requires becoming lucid in the waking state. A person who is habitually un-self-aware while awake will naturally continue to be un-self-aware, i.e., non-lucid, in the dream state. An RC is just a tool, a way to fan an already existent budding lucidity into a full-blown lucid dream.
So doing RCs in isolation is not so useful or interesting. But developing a lucid mind-set, frequently reflecting upon your present moment experience, and asking your self if your present moment expesrience seems dream like, THEN performing a RC, can be very effective in "catching" lucid dreams.
What you want is to associate that moment of confusion, doubt, strong emotion, suspicsion, etc., all those moments and signs and hints that you could be dreaming, with the reflection on your current state and then to perform an RC. Reflection + the RC together can really help boost lucid dreaming.
What I've found is that basically you want to catch those "whoa, wait, that's weird" moments and associate the thought that "I could be dreaming" and perform an RC to verify. In this context, the RC is a very powerful tool in establishing your budding lucidity in the dream state.
Hy FryingMan !
Nice to see such good people around !
I get that, and i do not doubt that a critical questioning habit is very powerful and self awareness is important and all that
I just have a hard time accepting that reality checking is a way to compensate for a daytime deficit, when clearly the problem lies in our sleeping mind not working as critically and efficiently in terms of memory
If we can discover how reality checking is working we could who knows derive a more direct and comprehensive approach and, who knows, dispense it all together
Who would want to know the direct path if there is one ?
Meanwhile, as we do not know how it works, it leaves a gap for us to practice it with the wrong twist or motivation, perhaps even getting slightly annoyed with the weirdness of RCing
I would simply practice RC because it reminds me of lucid dreaming and my intentions - i dont really know any other good reason for it. I know my waking mind is working just fine, my awareness is sound though i am no buddha. I just need to reach my dreaming mind through some means, and RCing suits that
I think you're giving "reality checking" too much credit. An RC is a tool for the pre-lucid mind to solidify its budding realization/recognition of the dream state. I've gotten lucid plenty of times (maybe 50% of my LDs) without ever doing an RC. I do not think RCs compensate for daily deficits in mindfulness. As Sageous says, a dreamer does not do an RC unless he already suspects at least a little bit that he might be dreaming already. It is the *awarenes* that leads to this state to then perform an RC. Awareness by necessity always comes first. I think that RCs could be dispensed with altogether -- and people would still get lucid. I wouldn't recommend it, because I find RCs convenient and very helpful in both getting initially lucid and in maintaining lucidity. I see nothing wrong with RCs. But RCs are just one of the tools in the toolbox, and you can't open that toolbox to pick up the RC without doing the day work of increasing attention, awareness, reflection, and memory. And strong intent to get lucid in the dream state.
I guess look at it this way: I don't "practice RCs." I practice mindfulness, attention, awareness, reflection, and intention. Part of the "rehersal" for having lucid dreams is performing reality checks, but it is in no way the primary practice itself, but a by-product of the main practice of raised awareness.
I agree with FryingMan. I believe RCs are just one of many tools that one can use to help develop the mindset needed for regular self awareness (in addition to being handy to confirm and solidify it). The “Reverse Reality Check” Sageous developed is another such tool. None of these do anything useful by themselves. Just “going through the motions” of the techniques without putting real purpose behind them is unlikely to yield results. One has to actually do these things with the proper attention and mindset for them to do any good, rather than merely waving them around expecting them to work like a magic wand.
When I was just starting out I heard a lot about the importance of RCs. It seemed to be just as important and needed as a dream journal, for example. However, I was and am too lazy to use them. Yet I've had about 140 LDs in my lifetime. It's not a great amount, but it's still a lot of LDs without using such a common and "necessary" tool.
The importance of RCs has been exaggerated but also misunderstood. The physical activity of, for example, counting your fingers, is not the important part in RCs but the awareness of your environment in either dream or reality is. When done right, RCs can definitely be an effective way of attaining lucidity. But they are not necessary as there are also many other ways.
I'm going to butt in here to ask a semi-related question. So....
What I can do if I know/or very suspicious that I'm dreaming, but I can't get full lucidity(the awe experience feeling). In such moments I always try multiple RC, but they all fail. I can't control anything. Here an example of this:
It's 9,30am and I'm doing my 'mojo', but it's like I can't fall asleep, so I open my eyes and look at the my portable digital watch to see how much time I wasted and it says 8am. So I jump out of bed while thinking I'm already dreaming, but my room look totally indetical, so I'm starting to RC one after another. Look away and back to the watch, but it still say 8.05am(in fact the clock is counting minutes normally) - fail, noseplug - fail, finger counting - fail, lamps - fail, float - fail, Reading rc - fail. So I'm just starting to think that I misread the watch in the first place and getting back to bed, only to awaken seconds later and to see it's 9.40am.
I have great number of these. So how to get lucid in these super realistic FA, if all RC fails?
I find it's best to base RCs and backup RCs on acts of dream control that usually work for me. Much more often than not, I can fly, phase through things and summon things.
I also occasionally have FAs where I'm not able to fly as an RC. When this happens, I try phasing through something or summoning something and I'm almost always able to do that.
I occasionally have instances of stubborn RCs that don't want to indicate dreaming when they should, but if I'm suspicious enough that I'm dreaming, I won't be quick to give up but will continue trying other RCs and will usually eventually manage to get one to give. Sometimes it just seems to take a moment to get the ball rolling. I don't very often get dreams in which all RCs persistently want to pretend I'm awake no matter what I do. Whenever one of those occur despite my best efforts, I try not to worry about it much; I did the best I could.
If this happens a lot, where you think you could be dreaming but can't make the RCs work, it could be something that improves with experience or mindset. Also, be persistent with the RCs and try to trust them to work. Maybe you could even make the whole experience in itself an RC. “I think I've got to be dreaming but can't make my RCs do what they should? Maybe I am dreaming!” I haven't actually tried that, but maybe you could find a way to make that workable. Or perhaps just leave the room and go about things as if you were dreaming for a while, while watching for any signs that make it more clear. Sometimes these problems take a bit of creativity and outside-the-box thinking to solve.
Could it be that, as Robert Waggoner claims in his first book, that RCing is also a vehicle to carry an unsolved tension into the dream state ?
If that is the case would it not be better to concentrate one's efforts in the morning hours and when falling asleep ?
Last night i had a curious couple of lucid dreams after falling asleep thinking about lucidity induction. Somehow i managed to go to sleep with this "problem" and indeed in my dream i devised a way to become lucid.
I think simply attaining knowledge that lucid dreaming is possible helps far more than RCs do. I think RCs are quite outdated, and maybe their use is further misunderstood because of films like Inception (which I've never even watched). The constant state of being aware of your surroundings can lead to just becoming lucid in a dream at random, which has happened to me a good few times.
In my short time at this I have yet to perform a RC in a dream.....but my mind has sent me a few signals that I should continue working on that. The state checks that I do during the day have been my strongest tool thus far.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingInYellow
I absolutely agree about the power of knowing from experience that this is possible. When I am struggling I remind myself that I have really been there and lucidity slips in on the grease of that realization.