• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Results 1 to 11 of 11
    Like Tree5Likes
    • 4 Post By yannis
    • 1 Post By IndigoRose

    Thread: Instadreamer-like free app for Fitbit devices : beta testers needed

    1. #1
      Member
      Join Date
      Jan 2020
      Posts
      5
      Likes
      6

      Instadreamer-like free app for Fitbit devices : beta testers needed

      Hi there

      I'm currently developing an app on fitbit devices (versa lite, versa2 and ionic) inducing lucid dreams following similar principle to the instadreamer device :

      The idea is to set reminders during the day to do a reality check, by vibrating the wrist. Then during the night, it detects REM stage before sending the same vibrations at one minutes intervals.

      It did work on me, although once in a lucid dream, I wished the vibration stopped because I was busy having fun (or maybe the vibration should be set somewhere else than on wrist &#128519.

      It uses two data sources, direct device data on heart rate variability and movements + sleep stages fetched from fitbit api (the latter has a big latency, hence the direct measure required).

      However, I believe everyone is different, and I want to test the app on potential lucid dreamers, in both expert and beginners populations (people doing lucid dreams regularly, and people who never managed to kickstart their lucid dream). I need to test accuracy (are users really dreaming when receiving vibration signals) and efficiency (%of nights with lucid dream).

      Tell me here if you want to participate to a beta to fine tune the app. I'm not planning to charge any bucks for the app, which is a big gap with expensive devices. Also I first tried to use withings API, but the delay for enriched data is too big (several hours, compared to few minutes with fitbit).

      Finally, if you're a developer I'd be happy to share the private repo to collaborate on remaining tasks (mostly ux and refinement). Tell me if you are interested !

    2. #2
      The First Lightbender Achievements:
      Tagger First Class Made lots of Friends on DV Referrer Bronze 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      IAmCoder's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Location
      The Hague
      Posts
      1,049
      Likes
      519
      Nice. I'd be interested in the heart rate variability data... what are you using to detect the REM stage?

    3. #3
      Member
      Join Date
      Jan 2020
      Posts
      5
      Likes
      6
      Screenshot 2020-01-08 at 11.16.59.jpg
      Hi, i'm using a combination of the available relevant sensors of the fitbit watch. You can see on the table (that's my metrics of last night) that it's pretty easy to detect deep sleep (super low variability, low movements), although it becomes harder with light/rem separation because heart rate variability has a high variance for this set.

      Variability is basically getting the min and max values on a defined period*, but I assumed segregation with light sleep was much easier.

      I also assume that the sleep stage is right, it's a combination of a nokia sleep device + fitbit api data, which I doubt on some periods of time.

      Tonight I sent a super strong vibration and it was right in a REM state, however it woke me up (at least I confirm I was dreaming when it fired).

      * Screenshot 2020-01-08 at 11.21.54.jpg

    4. #4
      Member Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Huge Dream Journal 1 year registered 10000 Hall Points Tagger Second Class Created Dream Journal
      zelcrow's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2018
      LD Count
      39
      Gender
      Location
      USA
      Posts
      327
      Likes
      156
      DJ Entries
      1243
      Hey yannis, that's an awesome project you're working on. I received a Fitbit as a present a few years ago and still wear it today. I have thought to myself before that it would be great to have it vibrate during the REM phase. So it's so neat to see someone working on this. So yes, I would like to participate.
      Dreams are real while they last. Can we say more of life? - Havelock Ellis

    5. #5
      Member
      Join Date
      Jan 2020
      Posts
      5
      Likes
      6
      hi , so the private link is available, and I'll certainly have fitbit go in the coming days. One thing I'm not so sure is that the app works whatever the timezone. Here is the link : (ah I can't post links since i'm a newbie on this forum ^^tomorrow I'll be able to do so.)

    6. #6
      The First Lightbender Achievements:
      Tagger First Class Made lots of Friends on DV Referrer Bronze 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      IAmCoder's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Location
      The Hague
      Posts
      1,049
      Likes
      519
      Thanks. If you pm or email the link to me I'd be happy to share it.

      I'm not quite following the variability. Do you have a threshold like around 12 and if it goes over that it triggers? And is the variability provided or do you calculate it yourself?

    7. #7
      Member
      Join Date
      Jan 2020
      Posts
      5
      Likes
      6
      Hello ! The link to the app is there : https://gallery.fitbit.com/details/a...a-957e8560a457

      For variability, I calculate it myself. I take measured heartbits over the last 3 minutes, and use the difference between max and min values. Above a certain threshold (7) and overall increase, I send the rem signal. So far, I didn't detected all dreams, however I was always right in a dream when firing vibrations (test is harsh : put a hard vibration, and check if I remember my dream )

      Have fun with this, for me it worked after few nights and fine tuning of the vibration pattern (you can do this in the settings page).
      Last edited by yannis; 01-14-2020 at 09:56 PM.

    8. #8
      Member Achievements:
      1 year registered

      Join Date
      Apr 2020
      LD Count
      5
      Gender
      Posts
      7
      Likes
      1
      Hi/Salut Yannis,
      Is it possible to port the app to Fibit Charge 2 or 3 ?
      Thanks

    9. #9
      Member Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal Tagger First Class Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      IndigoRose's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 2021
      Gender
      Posts
      111
      Likes
      208
      DJ Entries
      23

      What Iíve learnt after a month of using Fitbit

      So, Iíve been tracking my sleep with Fitbit Charge 4 for a little bit over a month.
      I want to share what Iíve learnt.

      I've been thinking about writing this post for some time. I am sure I forgot something, so maybe I'll add more later or I'll share some graphs if anyone is interested. Discussion/questions/disagreement is welcome.

      Why Fitbit

      For a long time, Iíd been considering somehow tracking my sleep but always got dissuaded by bad results of various sleep tracker. But the curiosity in me won eventually and I did a thorough comparison of my options.

      Here are some links for anyone interested:
      Oura ring - some nice hypnograms and easy to understand confusion matrix:
      https://d1a0efioav7lro.cloudfront.ne...ality-2016.pdf
      A comparison of various brands:
      https://academic.oup.com/sleep/artic...saa291/6055610
      Various Fitbit models:
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6908975/
      Fitbit Charge 2 and Alta HR:
      https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/full/10.5664/jcsm.8032

      Conclusion: Fitbit is a little bit better than Oura ring and significantly better than other competition. It also cost three times less and can do more (exercise tracking).

      Strengths

      The ability to recognize sleep vs. awake. Not perfect but not biased either way. It can be fooled but it is isnít bad.
      According to the research, it has a super high sensitivity (the ability to detect sleep, approx. 95%) but lower specificity (the ability to detect wake, 60-70%) and it is also good for telling how long it took to fall asleep (sleep onset latency).

      Weaknesses

      The biggest weakness is in detecting deep sleep. The sensitivity is somewhere around 50%.
      It shows me very little deep sleep and it shows me deep sleep in times where either there shouldnít be any or when I know with certainty that I wasnít in deep sleep.
      So I completely ignore this and look at the sleep staging as awake - non REM - REM.

      REM tracking

      It is surprisingly good for REM tracking. On my active nights, I wake up after most of my dreams and take notes (time, dream recall). The ends of my REM periods as shown by Fitbit are almost always corresponding to my notes.
      There are some mistakes but rarely major (like completely missing REM period). The mistakes can be the beginning of the REM period (hard to confirm) or gaps in the REM periods where I remember a continuous dream.
      On some days, it looks like everything makes sense and is correct. Sometimes, when my sleep is weird, it gets confused and I donít really trust it. I usually can tell, though, or at least I think I can.

      Usefulness for lucid dreaming

      Recall

      It really helps with recall. It makes it easier to tell which dreams/memories belong to which REM period. Together with my notes, it allows me to reconstruct most of my night. On a good night, I remember something vague from the 1st period, nothing from the 2nd and a lot of details from 3rd and 4th (and possibly 5th, if it happens).
      It also helps with understanding when I recall my dreams and when I donít. Even though the deep sleep stage is unreliable, itís evident that deep sleep just after a REM period is a recall killer. Awakening directly from REM helps a lot with recall. If I let it go because I am too sleepy and take the notes a little bit later (10-30 minutes later), I remember progressively less.

      Learning more about my sleep

      This is very helpful for battling insomnia, timing WBTB and LD techniques and more. Surprisingly, I realized that my sleep isnít exactly typical. My early REM periods arenít significantly shorter than the later periods. I get less REM than the benchmark for my age. And the last two hours of my sleep are often messed up. Also, my cycles arenít regular (no neat 90 minutes cycle) at all and they are different every day.
      I tried to do my WBTBs earlier (after 4 hours) and it helped me a lot. Sometimes, I also set an alarm for one of the early periods, hoping for a quick DEILD, but I havenít been successful yet.
      As every tracker user find out, we sleep less than we think. During 9 hours in bed, I typically spend 8 hours sleeping and 1 hour awake even if my sleep is decent and I don't try to lucid dream. If I add reading for a while, talking with my husband for a short time and falling asleep, I need to be in bed for 10 hours to get 8 hours of sleep. This isn't new to me, more like a confirmation.
      The sleep score I get from Fitbit usually corresponds well with how I feel. Which mean I can use it to get enough sleep without oversleeping.

      WILD timing

      I realized that waking up naturally just after REM is bad timing for me. Even if it is around the 6th hour of my sleep, the gaps between my REM periods are just too long (60-75 minutes).
      But Iíve had luck with spontaneous WILDs in the last hour of my sleep. I often drift in and out of sleep at that time (some conscious NREM probably too) and I basically ďwake upĒ just before the vibrations. I can also tell when the transition from light sleep to REM ďwantsĒ to happen but it usually wakes me up a bit too much.


      Resetting the cycle?

      It looks like a short awakening doesnít reset the cycle. Longer awakening usually also doesnít but if I canít relax enough/fall asleep deeply enough afterwards, the next REM period gets pushed back. My body just has this need for REM sleep and tries to get it when needed. I canít tell when it gives up. When I have insomnia, it feels like itís trying to get at least a couple of REM minutes periodically, and the moment my mind relaxes enough, I start dreaming.

      NREM REM-like dreams?

      NREM REM-like dreams should be relatively common. But so far, I havenít been able to confirm one. By confirm, I mean remembering a dream clearly at the time when Fitbit shows NREM. It happened maybe once or twice but on both of these occasions, the data looked wrong.
      There could be some dreams like that just before the REM periods, these would get recalled together with my REM dreams, but I have no way how to know about those.
      In any case, I would expect to see some signs of these more often but I just havenít.
      My usual NREM dreams, if I notice them, are just weird thoughts. Sometimes, there are simple 3rd person view visuals.

      Supplements

      The only supplements I tried during this period were B6 and 5-HTP and I couldn't see any significant difference in my sleep staging graph.
      Venryx likes this.

    10. #10
      Member Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal 1000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Made Friends on DV Veteran First Class
      Venryx's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2012
      LD Count
      250+
      Gender
      Location
      Seattle, WA
      Posts
      378
      Likes
      190
      DJ Entries
      85
      As a developer interested in lucid-dream induction software, this project looks interesting. (my Github profile is here, by the way)

      Are you still interested in collaboration on its development, @yannis?

      I've done work on previous lucid-dreaming software (you can check my created-threads history for some of it), but there were various issues that led me to lose focus.

      However, if rem-sleep detection can be done simply by wearing a smart-watch, that increases the convenience level significantly, and makes it feasible to reliably use the software every night. (which was a problem for most of my previous attempts -- I got lazy and/or forgetful, and so eventually ceased usage)
      Last edited by Venryx; 10-21-2021 at 03:17 PM.

    11. #11
      Moderator


      Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class Tagger Second Class Huge Dream Journal Veteran Second Class Populated Wall Created Dream Journal Made Friends on DV
      HumbleDreamer's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2015
      Posts
      3,362
      Likes
      2755
      DJ Entries
      2111
      Hey, I'm merging these threads together since there are a like with the other thread to keep the forum clean.


      Topic Merged.

      ~Humbledreamer.
      DV Moderator.

      Earn your wings! Try out Dream Views'
      Tasks of the Month and Tasks of the Year
      today!
      Here:
      https://www.dreamviews.com/tasks-month-year/
      BOOO!



    Similar Threads

    1. New movement free rc idea. I need testers!!!
      By atkins513 in forum General Lucid Discussion
      Replies: 111
      Last Post: 08-10-2020, 10:16 PM
    2. Replies: 4
      Last Post: 08-15-2012, 08:10 AM
    3. Ridge Racer Flash Beta. Testers Wanted
      By reci in forum Tech Talk
      Replies: 6
      Last Post: 06-13-2009, 06:13 PM
    4. Lucid Dream Activator Software - Finished Beta Testers 1.07b
      By sjpage in forum General Lucid Discussion
      Replies: 79
      Last Post: 12-20-2006, 09:39 PM
    5. Lucid Clock...Beta Testers Needed!
      By phoenelai in forum Attaining Lucidity
      Replies: 2
      Last Post: 06-16-2006, 06:09 AM

    Tags for this Thread

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •