can not sleep after wbtb.

hey guys, so ive been trying wbtb for quite a while and i understand that it might just be the most important step to lucid dreaming, since almost all or should i say, every technique requires it. i think i should first solve this problem, and then think about the other stuff later. so, my problem is that i can not fall asleep after wbtb. i wake up after nearly 5 hours of sleep (ive also tried 4 and 6) and stay up for 10 minutes (ive also tried 15, 45, 30 minutes). but i just can not fall asleep after completing the method. i dont move much, i just sit up on my bed and think about lding. what has led me to sleep a few times was a wbtb of not even 10 seconds(i dont even think it can be called a wbtb) i just said to myself that i want to lucid dream and fell asleep really easily, but i think thats not effective because, the point of wbtb is to experience some time of real life wakefullness and awareness, right before getting into rem, so you can have heightened awareness in the next dream. and i think 10 seconds or even 30 seconds is not enough for that. so just what should i do, to help me fall asleep after a proper wbtb? also MILD by Stephen Laberge requires you to sleep with the intention as the last thing in your mind before falling asleep. and i think its impossible for me to fall asleep thinking of the intention, and trying to make sure its the last thing, that will just keep me awake!

all help is appreciated:D!

Everyone is different. I often feel completely awake and alert just after going to the toilet.
You need to be awake enough to do the technique. If you can do 5-minute MILD after 30 seconds WBTB, that's fine.
If you wake up naturally often, just remind yourself of your intention and go back to sleep. One thing I found out is that future-oriented intention keeps me awake and future tense mantras make it into the dream but don't work. And it helped me a lot to switch to supersimple "I am dreaming".
You said elsewhere that you need to let your mind wander - I am the same. Let it. Don't worry too much about keeping dreaming on your mind as the last thing. I use the "I am dreaming" mantra very lazily and let my wandering thoughts overpower the mantra.
Also, experiment with it. Try to learn what works for you and what doesn't, what makes you sleep, and what keeps you awake.
I would say, for me, 80% of lucid dream induction is managing my sleep, keeping it not too deep and not too light. Sleeping, with high enough awareness but without waking up too often.

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Originally Posted by IndigoRose

Everyone is different. I often feel completely awake and alert just after going to the toilet.
You need to be awake enough to do the technique. If you can do 5-minute MILD after 30 seconds WBTB, that's fine.
If you wake up naturally often, just remind yourself of your intention and go back to sleep. One thing I found out is that future-oriented intention keeps me awake and future tense mantras make it into the dream but don't work. And it helped me a lot to switch to supersimple "I am dreaming".
You said elsewhere that you need to let your mind wander - I am the same. Let it. Don't worry too much about keeping dreaming on your mind as the last thing. I use the "I am dreaming" mantra very lazily and let my wandering thoughts overpower the mantra.
Also, experiment with it. Try to learn what works for you and what doesn't, what makes you sleep, and what keeps you awake.
I would say, for me, 80% of lucid dream induction is managing my sleep, keeping it not too deep and not too light. Sleeping, with high enough awareness but without waking up too often.

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no its not a 5 minute mild with a wbtb of 30 seconds. the whole duration is lesser than 30 seconds. i just tell myself merely once, that i want to lucid dream, and then sleep real quick. okay so i think i have an idea and i might try this for a few days now. so i will sleep at 1:30 am and wake up at 6:00 am. i will skip the rem stages and stay awake. i will then take a 2-hour nap from 3 to 5 pm. why i think this will work is because, i the moment i sleep i will dream (rem rebound) and i will be sleepy enough to fall asleep soon. maybe the reason i can not fall asleep in wbtb is because i have already slept for 5 hours before and i am not sleepy anymore. do you think this is a good thing to try? do you know of anyone who has tried this?

One thing that can help is to do your WBTB earlier in the night. Try 3 or 4 am, adjust until you find a sweet spot for you. It will be easier to fall asleep if it's earlier. You'll be sleepier. Make sure you set an alarm to adjust to the earlier wake up time until it's a pattern.

If you're having trouble sleeping fully at night, I strongly recommend not napping. That is going to interfere with your night time sleep. You will be sleepier if you do not take a nap. Once you get your schedule set and WBTBs aren't a problem, you could introduce napping again (at your own risk ;) ).

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Originally Posted by Princessflare

i will sleep at 1:30 am and wake up at 6:00 am. i will skip the rem stages and stay awake. i will then take a 2-hour nap from 3 to 5 pm. why i think this will work is because, i the moment i sleep i will dream (rem rebound) and i will be sleepy enough to fall asleep soon. maybe the reason i can not fall asleep in wbtb is because i have already slept for 5 hours before and i am not sleepy anymore. do you think this is a good thing to try? do you know of anyone who has tried this?

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Many people tried biphasic sleep, it can work for some.
I don't do that because sleeping only 5.5-6 hours makes me a zombie and I am not good with naps. It is possible to feel very tired and sleepy and still not be able to fall asleep.

I know the pain and frustration all too well. In fact, just last night I lost 3 hours of sleep thanks to a WBTB. It happened a lot when I was first starting out but happens less these days.

The number one thing that will keep you awake is focusing too much on your technique or the need to fall asleep quickly. It can be tough, especially when you’re following “the steps” so strictly as I’ve mentioned before. If you focus too much on it and keep it so heavily on your mind you’re essentially telling your brain I don’t want to sleep right now I want to focus on this instead. This is why WILD techniques can be tricky as well. If your someone who can fall asleep quickly then this isn’t a problem but for the rest of us it helps to do shorter WBTBs and do the techniques a little more passively as IndigoRose suggested.

The best time to do a WBTB varies but in the past 2 years probably 90% of mine have been after 6 hours which is why I aim exclusively for this time as it’s most effective for me but may be different for you. Once you’ve had a few lucids you’ll start to see your optimal time or “sweet spot”.

I’ll share some tips I’ve learned for falling asleep quicker that may help.

1. Focus on breath. Essentially this is meditation but focusing purely on your breath as it comes in and out helps the body relax and the mind settle. Sometimes it can become too difficult and my mind wanders but that’s not always a bad thing as long as it doesn’t lead back to stressing about not sleeping.

2. Keep your eyes open. Try to keep your eyes open and not sleep. This may seem odd but you’ll soon find your eyes start to feel really heavy and you just can’t keep them open anymore and leads to sleepiness.

3. Get up. If you’ve been laid in bed for over an hour and feel really tense and frustrated get out of bed for a bit and then return to bed after a short time. This gives you a short break from the “trying” to fall asleep and relives some of the stress, almost like a re-set button.

4. Admit defeat! That’s right, give up trying to fall asleep or have a lucid dream. Accept that you’re not going to sleep tonight and just lay there with your eyes closed instead. This is a final resort but is surprisingly effective. Once you take the pressure off then you tend to relax and sleep follows.

You may feel doing these things is giving up and will result in no lucidity but that’s not always the case. Last night for example I gave up and admitted defeat and despite this I fell asleep and had two lucid dreams afterwards! Probably because I had been awake for so long. So staying up for a while can actually improve your chances and you may have a lucid dream… but be very tired the following morning as well!!

In time you’ll probably be able to beat this issue. You just have to learn that falling asleep is easy as long as you don’t worry about it.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

I know the pain and frustration all too well. In fact, just last night I lost 3 hours of sleep thanks to a WBTB. It happened a lot when I was first starting out but happens less these days.

The number one thing that will keep you awake is focusing too much on your technique or the need to fall asleep quickly. It can be tough, especially when you’re following “the steps” so strictly as I’ve mentioned before. If you focus too much on it and keep it so heavily on your mind you’re essentially telling your brain I don’t want to sleep right now I want to focus on this instead. This is why WILD techniques can be tricky as well. If your someone who can fall asleep quickly then this isn’t a problem but for the rest of us it helps to do shorter WBTBs and do the techniques a little more passively as IndigoRose suggested.

The best time to do a WBTB varies but in the past 2 years probably 90% of mine have been after 6 hours which is why I aim exclusively for this time as it’s most effective for me but may be different for you. Once you’ve had a few lucids you’ll start to see your optimal time or “sweet spot”.

I’ll share some tips I’ve learned for falling asleep quicker that may help.

1. Focus on breath. Essentially this is meditation but focusing purely on your breath as it comes in and out helps the body relax and the mind settle. Sometimes it can become too difficult and my mind wanders but that’s not always a bad thing as long as it doesn’t lead back to stressing about not sleeping.

2. Keep your eyes open. Try to keep your eyes open and not sleep. This may seem odd but you’ll soon find your eyes start to feel really heavy and you just can’t keep them open anymore and leads to sleepiness.

3. Get up. If you’ve been laid in bed for over an hour and feel really tense and frustrated get out of bed for a bit and then return to bed after a short time. This gives you a short break from the “trying” to fall asleep and relives some of the stress, almost like a re-set button.

4. Admit defeat! That’s right, give up trying to fall asleep or have a lucid dream. Accept that you’re not going to sleep tonight and just lay there with your eyes closed instead. This is a final resort but is surprisingly effective. Once you take the pressure off then you tend to relax and sleep follows.

You may feel doing these things is giving up and will result in no lucidity but that’s not always the case. Last night for example I gave up and admitted defeat and despite this I fell asleep and had two lucid dreams afterwards! Probably because I had been awake for so long. So staying up for a while can actually improve your chances and you may have a lucid dream… but be very tired the following morning as well!!

In time you’ll probably be able to beat this issue. You just have to learn that falling asleep is easy as long as you don’t worry about it.

Good luck.

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I really really like the 4th step (thanks lol), but you do realise that by giving up, I'm not really giving up like I'm still hoping for a lucid lol. But yeah I understand, there's not a fixed solution to the problem and it sucks. The giving up thing has crossed my mind too, but I mentioned above why it still doesn't help. But I'll still give it a go. I mean I sleep pretty easily in the beginning of the night, but just why not after a wbtb, (it probably has to Do with expecting a lucid)

Did you try to mild last night??

Thanks a lot!!

Yeah the 4th step has to be done honestly, you can’t trick yourself. Last night I really did give up. I couldn’t of cared less about having a lucid dream I just wanted to sleep! I knew I’d fall asleep eventually but I was prepared to lay their for another hour or so awake. I think I fell asleep within 10 mins or so after giving up!
Did I try MILD, yes and no. I got up, used the toilet and went back to bed recalling my dreams and reminding myself of my goal. I then tried to fall asleep loosely concentrating on my intention but more focusing on my breath. Usually this works and I fall asleep but for whatever reason it didn’t last night and for 2 of the 3 hours I was just laid their tired and miserable! The joys of lucid dreaming! As I said it’s a rare occurrence these days.

To go with 'giving up', I have found that getting up and doing something fun (playing a video game, listening to an audiobook, watching a YouTube channel about lucid dreaming, etc.) for an hour or so does the trick. It takes your mind off of it. You're not focused on trying to sleep so much. Then. after an hour or two, go back to bed.

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Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

To go with 'giving up', I have found that getting up and doing something fun (playing a video game, listening to an audiobook, watching a YouTube channel about lucid dreaming, etc.) for an hour or so does the trick. It takes your mind off of it. You're not focused on trying to sleep so much. Then. after an hour or two, go back to bed.

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Hm that's a good idea. I'll try it, but this is essentially giving up and sleeping too, right?
Oh I get it.

I have had great success when I get up at 5 , do some maths questions for 45 minutes and then fall back asleep focusing on an anchor . I never get WILDs and I fall asleep , but after some time I have a lot of good Lucid False awakenings .

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Originally Posted by SealedOrion

...and then fall back asleep focusing on an anchor .

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This is the answer. You must not be laying there thinking as it will keep you awake. Read some of these threads Use an anchor