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    1. #51
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      I don't think you are an outlier on this at all Sageous. A DEILD is a DILD really.

      For our visualization talk, we did talk about waking, WILD, and dream visualization so it might have made our understanding of DEILD ambiguous so I will clarify:

      Between my last dream and fully waking, there is sometimes an ambiguous period where I think I am awake and start recalling my dreams. But, I'm really still dreaming... but it's just my thoughts. There are no visuals. A proof of this is in my example from Sunday, when I pulled an hair from my mouth's. The pain lasted past my dream to a period where I thought I was awake. In that moment, there was nothing except the delusion that I was awake and a curiosity as to how such a pain could follow me into my waking experience. No visuals, no eyes open, no body, except for my mouth and a pointed pain. My consciousness at this point is continuous with the consciousness that will wake up. There is no break. It's like the opposite of a WILD: a DIA (Dream-induced Awakening ) This is why I am willing to call this DILD a DEILD. I'm still in a dream, but on the threshold. My mind is awake but my body is still not. My mind feels so "waking up"-awake I always assume I am already waking.

      I guess many people are more used to the false-awakening scenario of waking up in their bedroom. But, I false-wake in my waking mind. And I recall my dreams. My more traditional false-awakening dreams are about me writing down dreams or telling people "How funny, I just dreamed of you."

      So to clarify: when I talk about recalling dreams in the context of DEILD, I don't mean recalling dreams while awake. I mean recalling dreams while dreaming. Because my mind is waking up, exiting the dream, and that's what I naturally do then.

      The imagining-visualization technique is no more than a dream-control technique. The anchor, a dream stabilization technique. These techniques are just labels on in-dream behaviors.

      EDIT: Princessflare, don't try do DEILD. Just intend to DILD. If you recognize you are dreaming as you are dream-exiting, then lucid dream then. If you just wake up, without being aware of the dream exit, just forget it. DILD and WILD. You can't plan a DEILD past recognizing that moment as it happens. There's no point to focus on that. For myself, it is recurrent enough for myself to think I am already awake when I am still waking up so it makes sense for me to focus on recognizing that moment as an opportunity to lucid dream. Keep DILDing until you can recognize that moment.
      Last edited by Occipitalred; 11-03-2021 at 07:33 PM.

    2. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      I don't think you are an outlier on this at all Sageous. A DEILD is a DILD really.

      For our visualization talk, we did talk about waking, WILD, and dream visualization so it might have made our understanding of DEILD ambiguous so I will clarify:

      Between my last dream and fully waking, there is sometimes an ambiguous period where I think I am awake and start recalling my dreams. But, I'm really still dreaming... but it's just my thoughts. There are no visuals. A proof of this is in my example from Sunday, when I pulled an hair from my mouth's. The pain lasted past my dream to a period where I thought I was awake. In that moment, there was nothing except the delusion that I was awake and a curiosity as to how such a pain could follow me into my waking experience. No visuals, no eyes open, no body, except for my mouth and a pointed pain. My consciousness at this point is continuous with the consciousness that will wake up. There is no break. It's like the opposite of a WILD: a DIA (Dream-induced Awakening ) This is why I am willing to call this DILD a DEILD. I'm still in a dream, but on the threshold. My mind is awake but my body is still not. My mind feels so "waking up"-awake I always assume I am already waking.

      I guess many people are more used to the false-awakening scenario of waking up in their bedroom. But, I false-wake in my waking mind. And I recall my dreams. My more traditional false-awakening dreams are about me writing down dreams or telling people "How funny, I just dreamed of you."

      So to clarify: when I talk about recalling dreams in the context of DEILD, I don't mean recalling dreams while awake. I mean recalling dreams while dreaming. Because my mind is waking up, exiting the dream, and that's what I naturally do then.

      The imagining-visualization technique is no more than a dream-control technique. The anchor, a dream stabilization technique. These techniques are just labels on in-dream behaviors.

      EDIT: Princessflare, don't try do DEILD. Just intend to DILD. If you recognize you are dreaming as you are dream-exiting, then lucid dream then. If you just wake up, without being aware of the dream exit, just forget it. DILD and WILD. You can't plan a DEILD past recognizing that moment as it happens. There's no point to focus on that. For myself, it is recurrent enough for myself to think I am already awake when I am still waking up so it makes sense for me to focus on recognizing that moment as an opportunity to lucid dream. Keep DILDing until you can recognize that moment.
      But your case is a particularly rare one(I might be wrong, please don't come at me lol), you also have an in between state, and I guess most people don't.
      And most DEILD tutorials talk about, attempting in the first few seconds of WAKING UP from the dream. So I'm just mad confused here now. I hope Sageous or Sivason or Tiktaalik or IndigoRose could clear this confusion.

      Thanks!!!

    3. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      I don't think you are an outlier on this at all Sageous. A DEILD is a DILD really.
      No, it isn't.

      A DEILD is a WILD transition, because it happens without loss of waking-life self-awareness. A DEILD literally cannot be a DILD, period. It is advice like that that serves to deeply confuse novices looking to learn about DEILD for perhaps the first time... which was my point. [EDIT: and I notice that point was confirmed by Princessflare's response]

      Your experience seems unusual, Occipitalred, and your skills are advanced, but what you describe is an actual DEILD, albeit an unusual one, because your waking-life self-awareness is present throughout the transition -- post-hairpull, of course -- and, as you said, you were still dreaming throughout (even if there were no visuals). Yes, you lost track of Self for a moment, but you were aware and dreaming during the moments of approaching wakefulness and return to sleep. So, it was a DILD followed quickly by a DEILD... two separate transitions in a short period of time. As you said, remembering your dreams during a dream is still a dream.

      Yes, DEILD's certainly will follow, or emerge from DILD's or WILDs, because it really helps/you need to be lucid when you sense an awakening, and DILD and WILD, being the only two types of LD transitions, will probably have occurred before the exit dream. And yes again, DILD's are generally what happens when you become aware during a false awakening -- but the DEILD comes after that, when you sense an awakening, and not during.

      That said: This, however, was an outstanding piece of advice that I hope Princessflare considers:
      Princessflare, don't try do DEILD. Just intend to DILD. If you recognize you are dreaming as you are dream-exiting, then lucid dream then. If you just wake up, without being aware of the dream exit, just forget it. DILD and WILD. You can't plan a DEILD past recognizing that moment as it happens. There's no point to focus on that. For myself, it is recurrent enough for myself to think I am already awake when I am still waking up so it makes sense for me to focus on recognizing that moment as an opportunity to lucid dream. Keep DILDing until you can recognize that moment.

      Oh, and no need to defend yourself, BTW, I wasn't accusing you of anything.


      ...Still an Outlier, I suppose!
      Last edited by Sageous; 11-03-2021 at 08:22 PM.
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    4. #54
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      No, it isn't.

      A DEILD is a WILD transition, because it happens without loss of waking-life self-awareness. A DEILD literally cannot be a DILD, period. It is advice like that that serves to deeply confuse novices looking to learn about DEILD for perhaps the first time... which was my point. [EDIT: and I notice that point was confirmed by Princessflare's response]

      Your experience seems unusual, Occipitalred, and your skills are advanced, but what you describe is an actual DEILD, albeit an unusual one, because your waking-life self-awareness is present throughout the transition -- post-hairpull, of course -- and, as you said, you were still dreaming throughout (even if there were no visuals). Yes, you lost track of Self for a moment, but you were aware and dreaming during the moments of approaching wakefulness and return to sleep. So, it was a DILD followed quickly by a DEILD... two separate transitions in a short period of time. As you said, remembering your dreams during a dream is still a dream.

      Yes, DEILD's certainly will follow, or emerge from DILD's or WILDs, because it really helps/you need to be lucid when you sense an awakening, and DILD and WILD, being the only two types of LD transitions, will probably have occurred before the exit dream. And yes again, DILD's are generally what happens when you become aware during a false awakening -- but the DEILD comes after that, when you sense an awakening, and not during.

      That said: This, however, was an outstanding piece of advice that I hope Princessflare considers:


      Oh, and no need to defend yourself, BTW, I wasn't accusing you of anything.


      ...Still an Outlier, I suppose!
      But to DILD, I must fall asleep with mind and body(?) And also again, should I perform DIELD in the dream itself, or can I also do it the moment I'm aware I'm in bed???(haven't lost a single second) almost immediately starting the process.
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    5. #55
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      I agree with what sageous has said and I admit I have been talking about traditional WILD in some of my comments rather than DEILD due to similarities between the two. It is a form of WILD after all. I have experienced the exiting a dream, holding on and re-entering experience Sageous has described without any waking or techniques required. That said I believe there is a second understanding of DEILD that involves waking first that may be causing the confusion.

      Here’s one DEILD guide below I used to go to for details:

      https://www.thelucidguide.com/Techni...-Dream-(DEILD)

      This guide suggests a brief moment of awakening is required and techniques such as visualisation can be used for reentry. The one outlined in the link above was paraphrasing a method created by an LD4ALL member who named it “DEILD”. I know LaBerge suggested a similar method in ETWOLD but he didn’t originally call it DEILD. Is it possible two descriptions of this technique exist?
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    6. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      No, it isn't.

      A DEILD is a WILD transition, because it happens without loss of waking-life self-awareness. A DEILD literally cannot be a DILD, period. It is advice like that that serves to deeply confuse novices looking to learn about DEILD for perhaps the first time... which was my point. [EDIT: and I notice that point was confirmed by Princessflare's response]

      Your experience seems unusual, Occipitalred, and your skills are advanced, but what you describe is an actual DEILD, albeit an unusual one, because your waking-life self-awareness is present throughout the transition -- post-hairpull, of course -- and, as you said, you were still dreaming throughout (even if there were no visuals). Yes, you lost track of Self for a moment, but you were aware and dreaming during the moments of approaching wakefulness and return to sleep. So, it was a DILD followed quickly by a DEILD... two separate transitions in a short period of time. As you said, remembering your dreams during a dream is still a dream.

      Yes, DEILD's certainly will follow, or emerge from DILD's or WILDs, because it really helps/you need to be lucid when you sense an awakening, and DILD and WILD, being the only two types of LD transitions, will probably have occurred before the exit dream. And yes again, DILD's are generally what happens when you become aware during a false awakening -- but the DEILD comes after that, when you sense an awakening, and not during.

      That said: This, however, was an outstanding piece of advice that I hope Princessflare considers:


      Oh, and no need to defend yourself, BTW, I wasn't accusing you of anything.


      ...Still an Outlier, I suppose!
      Quote Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
      I agree with what sageous has said and I admit I have been talking about traditional WILD in some of my comments rather than DEILD due to similarities between the two. It is a form of WILD after all. I have experienced the exiting a dream, holding on and re-entering experience Sageous has described without any waking or techniques required. That said I believe there is a second understanding of DEILD that involves waking first that may be causing the confusion.

      Here’s one DEILD guide below I used to go to for details:

      https://www.thelucidguide.com/Techni...-Dream-(DEILD)

      This guide suggests a brief moment of awakening is required and techniques such as visualisation can be used for reentry. The one outlined in the link above was paraphrasing a method created by an LD4ALL member who named it “DEILD”. I know LaBerge suggested a similar method in ETWOLD but he didn’t originally call it DEILD. Is it possible two descriptions of this technique exist?
      Klace has posted it here too

      https://www.dreamviews.com/attaining...cid-dream.html

    7. #57
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      I fear, Princessflare, that you may have been exposed to way too much information on this thread.

      That's why I highlighted Occipitalred's note directed specifically to you. Because the exit dream in a DEILD generally occurs during a lucid dream, it makes a lot of sense to develop an ability to have that LD in the first place.... and the first step here is to learn to DILD (preferably by using the MILD technique) or to WILD (of course I recommend my DVA WILD class for this ). Then, when you are having LD's (through DILD or WILD transitions) you can extend them or chain them using DEILD transitions. And with a lot of experience being aware during your dreams, you might be able to have DEILD transitions when your exit dream is not lucid.

      In other words, you generally need to be able to have LD's in the first place before you can consistently DEILD. At that point you will understand that the DEILD transition begins during the exit dream and ends during the exit dream, and that transition takes but a few seconds. If you are awake and aware in bed, it may be too late to DEILD and a classic WILD may be in order.

      And yes, you do fall asleep in mind and body to DILD, but you start that process when you go to bed at night, and not when you are waking up in the morning.

      I hope, Princessflare, that you might back up a little bit and revisit your exploration into LDing. Though DEILD is indeed the easiest transition to do, that ease really only comes after you've gained the ability to LD through DILD or WILD.

      ... And that piling up of misinformation continues with those links. Sadly, especially considering its age, Klace's tutorial is for a classic WILD that you happen to do when you wake up after a dream... It is a fine technique, but it is for WILD, and not DEILD. I also have watched Daniel Love's Lucid Guide video, and was very disappointed, given Mr. Love's apparent popularity; it was especially disappointing, because his video on classic WILD is quite good.


      Quote Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
      This guide suggests a brief moment of awakening is required and techniques such as visualisation can be used for reentry. The one outlined in the link above was paraphrasing a method created by an LD4ALL member who named it “DEILD”. I know LaBerge suggested a similar method in ETWOLD but he didn’t originally call it DEILD. Is it possible two descriptions of this technique exist?
      No, it isn't. This is because DEILD is not a technique, it is the name given to the type of transition it is (dream exit to brief awakening to sleep and dream without losing waking-life self-awareness). It really can only be one thing, regardless of the techniques used to induce it. And for what it's worth, I learned about DEILD directly from LaBerge 20 years ago, so my words generally reflect his opinion of it (back then, at least); as he did me, he will be the first to tell you the technique in ETWOLD was not for DEILD, because he hadn't yet thought of it when he wrote the book.

      It's a shame that such a simple transition has been nearly forgotten amid all the techniques invented over the years... perhaps it has been fully forgotten.
      Last edited by Sageous; 11-03-2021 at 09:27 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      No, it isn't. This is because DEILD is not a technique, it is the name given to the type of transition it is (dream exit to brief awakening to sleep and dream without losing waking-life self-awareness). It really can only be one thing, regardless of the techniques used to induce it. And for what it's worth, I learned about DEILD directly from LaBerge 20 years ago, so my words generally reflect his opinion of it (back then, at least); as he did me, he will be the first to tell you the technique in ETWOLD was not for DEILD, because he hadn't yet thought of it when he wrote the book.

      It's a shame that such a simple transition has been nearly forgotten amid all the techniques invented over the years... perhaps it has been fully forgotten.
      I see. I don’t think this kind of transition has been forgotten. As I mentioned I have experienced DEILD as you’ve described it and would still consider it a DEILD. This new “DEILD technique” has been created however and appears to be its own thing. The advice given looks to have been for this specific technique and was what Princessflare was referring to.

      I agree that DILDs are a better starting point for beginners and think MILD is the best “technique” to look into. Or as I’ve mentioned before, attempt WILD but don’t worry about succeeding. A failed WILD can easily become a later DILD.
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    9. #59
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      Sageous, we really are talking about semantics here. Just so everyone knows neither of us even disagree with each other on our methods for what is trying to be achieved in each case.

      I am in fact describing a form of traditional WILD which takes advantage of the near sleep, deep hypnogogic state of awakening, combined with the timing advantage of knowing you are primed for dreaming (REM phase) as evidenced by the fact you were in fact dreaming 5 seconds ago. I am calling this DEILD

      Sageous is describing how to recover from a failing lucid dream while you are still almost entirely asleep. The dream collapses but you can save it and start another vivid lucid using his method. In this case you have not actually woken up. I would call this stabilizing a failing dream, or some such and he is calling this DEILD.

      I do not care what we call either. Both are useful things to know, but let's be clear me and Sageous have been discussing totally different things, not disagreeing on how one thing is done.

      My thing is a great time to try WILD and his thing is a great way to extend your dreaming period and have many more lucids. I think we can both agree that in either case the first step is normally to learn DILD, preferably with a MILD element to it. You can not stabilize a failing dream if you are not familiar with being aware in dreams, and WILD is freaking hard enough, but probably even more so if you are not already a lucid dreamer. It is harmless to try to do a WILD with in the first minute of waking (what I have been calling DEILD) but novices should be focusing on DILD.

      Tiktaalik, you asked if it is possible 2 descriptions of this tech exist. Not descriptions of a tech, we seem to be talking about two entirely separate aspects of the lucid dreaming art and assigning the same name to both. So it is clear I have been talking about WILDing upon awaking from a dream. This is the first I have heard of that not being what DEILD is, but I admit I have been using my methods for 35 years and simply adopted the names for various things from the common usage on this forum. Sageous got his info from Laberge which is a pretty sound reason to trust that the original use of the term relates to his stabilization/ recovery advice.

      If anyone wants advice on WILDing in general you honestly should be reading his class material and trusting him on all things WILD. As the questions posed to me had to do with visualizing and not thinking I figured that was kind of my class. Turns out this DEILD thing is not really either of those.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sivason View Post
      Tiktaalik, you asked if it is possible 2 descriptions of this tech exist. Not descriptions of a tech, we seem to be talking about two entirely separate aspects of the lucid dreaming art and assigning the same name to both. So it is clear I have been talking about WILDing upon awaking from a dream. This is the first I have heard of that not being what DEILD is, but I admit I have been using my methods for 35 years and simply adopted the names for various things from the common usage on this forum. Sageous got his info from Laberge which is a pretty sound reason to trust that the original use of the term relates to his stabilization/ recovery advice.
      Yes, I was starting to suspect this was the case. The confusion seems to be two different things named the same thing. Either way it’s all excellent advice and all pointing toward getting lucid.
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    11. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      Between my last dream and fully waking, there is sometimes an ambiguous period where I think I am awake and start recalling my dreams. But, I'm really still dreaming... but it's just my thoughts. There are no visuals. A proof of this is in my example from Sunday, when I pulled an hair from my mouth's. The pain lasted past my dream to a period where I thought I was awake. In that moment, there was nothing except the delusion that I was awake and a curiosity as to how such a pain could follow me into my waking experience. No visuals, no eyes open, no body, except for my mouth and a pointed pain. My consciousness at this point is continuous with the consciousness that will wake up. There is no break. It's like the opposite of a WILD: a DIA (Dream-induced Awakening ) This is why I am willing to call this DILD a DEILD. I'm still in a dream, but on the threshold. My mind is awake but my body is still not. My mind feels so "waking up"-awake I always assume I am already waking.
      This sounds familiar to me but at the same time somewhat different from my experience.
      I've never understood why people have problems with opening eyes or moving when waking up for DEILD (and its various versions, including external-induced). I simply don't wake up fully, I just get conscious. In my case, I do feel my real body, so it isn't remnant REM. I can decide to wake up fully, for example, to write keywords/tags for my dream, but this is like another step and takes some willpower. Sometimes, I make the decision to write the keywords, and 5 or 10 minutes later, I think I wrote them but then remember, that I actually didn't and force myself to fully wake up to write them. Same as you, my FAs are often thought-like (writing keywords, talking to my husband, thinking about my dream).
      I think this is light conscious NREM because it happens to me randomly and relatively often, not just after a dream. Between two dreams or two REM periods in the morning, I find myself conscious in this way several times. This is how I can wake myself up for a natural WBTB or how I do my spontaneous WILDs. Unfortunately, when it comes to insomnia, this is what creates the illusion of not sleeping at all because every time I get conscious, my thought is "I am not sleeping" and it feels like a continuum, even though there were black-out periods (and then, as a bonus I get a dream about trying to sleep in some random location).
      I also have problems telling apart dreams and thoughts. Sometimes, I think like "was I just dreaming that or was I only thinking about it?" and I try to recall sensual experiences to tell the difference. With morning dreams, it usually isn't a problem (although NREM dreams can be confusing), but with early night dreams, I am often very confused.
      I am sure this gets mixed with some actual thought dreams or vague-visual dreams and also with some real awakenings and random hypnagogic or hypnopompic stuff, creating a confusing mess. I remember several occasions when I started to think about something in the middle of a dream, woke myself up (to write keywords or do WBTB), not paying any attention to the dream, and only after waking up realized that I was dreaming.

      But yeah, I think we are complicating it too much for a simple DEILD thread.

      The DEILD vs WILD thing, I think, it's a spectrum and it's impossible to tell what still counts as a DEILD and what is a quick WILD.
      I see CANWILD and The Phase techniques and similar techniques as DEILD. Even if there is no dream to exit from.
      But I would say it doesn't really matter. DEILD is WILD. The extreme end of all possible WILD experiences. The technique for DEILD and for WILD is basically the same. It's keeping self-awareness while falling (back) asleep. The same balancing act between losing it and staying awake/waking up fully.
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      Sivason:

      I am in general agreement with your last post, except for one thing:

      Quote Originally Posted by Sivason View Post
      Sageous is describing how to recover from a failing lucid dream while you are still almost entirely asleep. The dream collapses but you can save it and start another vivid lucid using his method. In this case you have not actually woken up. I would call this stabilizing a failing dream, or some such and he is calling this DEILD.
      No, I'm not. At all.

      DEILD, to me, is by no measure recovery from a failing lucid dream. Quite the opposite, in fact: Before a DEILD your dream is strong and doing just fine, but during that dream you start to sense your body awakening. From there you lucidly hold onto your dream while your body awakens briefly and then goes back to sleep. So yes, your body is actually waking up, however briefly, and then going back to sleep again, with the DEILD transition being your maintaining waking-life self-awareness throughout that process by staying connected to your exit dream. I'm not sure why I must say all this, again; do you really think I don't understand what a DEILD is?

      I'm not sure where this whole "collapsing dream" thing came from, anyway, but it wasn't from me. And I never spoke, even once, about starting another "vivid" LD from a collapsed dream; I have no idea where you got that from, as I never discuss vividness (except to say it doesn't matter), and to me talk of things like collapsing dreams only complicates comprehension of a simple process even more. On top of all that, I never, ever, even once, said that A), My explanation of DEILD was a "method," and B), that you never actually wake up. I did say that, as you get good at managing DEILD transitions you will probably barely wake up, or won't even notice the awakening, but there is still an awakening -- or at least its process -- or else there is no DEILD. Waking up is part of the DEILD process; why would I leave it out? Also, I think I understand stabilization techniques, and can separate them from DEILD; if I were discussing a stabilization technique, I would have called it that, and not DEILD, which has pretty much nothing to do with stabilization techniques. So no, I am not "stabilizing a failing dream, or some such, and calling this a DEILD." Far from it. I'm a little amazed that that's what you thought I meant.

      This is not semantics, Sivason, and not, in my mind, a difference of opinion. My point was simple, and, I had hoped, pretty clear: DEILD is a very simple WILD transition that begins with noticing, during your exit dream, that your body is waking up, and then holding on to that exit dream, and your lucidity, throughout the short process of waking and going back to sleep. I never intended to consider this a failing dream stabilization method, or a method at all. I was simply trying to point out that DEILD is by its nature a very simple thing and need not include any techniques or methods, and certainly not the complicated maze of techniques you guys seem intent on building. Clearly I have failed. And, unfortunately, my whole point was soundly defeated by your categorizing my definition of DEILD as just another method that is about ""stabilizing a failing dream, or some such," which only manages to complicate the issue even more. I have no problem with you telling me my definition of DEILD is wrong, but please don't translate my words into just another "method."

      Sorry for the tone, I certainly mean no offense, but this conversation seems to have regressed to a point of absurdity, from my perspective. This was probably my fault for daring, in the name of helping someone new to the art, to cling to a very simple process (and definition) for DEILD when I should have remembered that complication, a near obsession with technique, and an apparent need for general confusion seems to be the rule of thumb around here. What is truly amazing is that I've been saying the same simple thing over and over, and still no one seems to get it... also my fault, no doubt, but still very frustrating.

      Maybe I should change my name from Sageous to Outlier; it seems to make sense.
      Last edited by Sageous; 11-04-2021 at 05:11 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Princessflare View Post
      But your case is a particularly rare one(I might be wrong, please don't come at me lol), you also have an in between state, and I guess most people don't.
      And most DEILD tutorials talk about, attempting in the first few seconds of WAKING UP from the dream. So I'm just mad confused here now. I hope Sageous or Sivason or Tiktaalik or IndigoRose could clear this confusion.

      Thanks!!!
      I won't come at you, no worries,

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      No, it isn't.

      A DEILD is a WILD transition, because it happens without loss of waking-life self-awareness. A DEILD literally cannot be a DILD, period. It is advice like that that serves to deeply confuse novices looking to learn about DEILD for perhaps the first time... which was my point. [EDIT: and I notice that point was confirmed by Princessflare's response]

      Your experience seems unusual, Occipitalred, and your skills are advanced, but what you describe is an actual DEILD, albeit an unusual one, because your waking-life self-awareness is present throughout the transition -- post-hairpull, of course -- and, as you said, you were still dreaming throughout (even if there were no visuals). Yes, you lost track of Self for a moment, but you were aware and dreaming during the moments of approaching wakefulness and return to sleep. So, it was a DILD followed quickly by a DEILD... two separate transitions in a short period of time. As you said, remembering your dreams during a dream is still a dream.

      Yes, DEILD's certainly will follow, or emerge from DILD's or WILDs, because it really helps/you need to be lucid when you sense an awakening, and DILD and WILD, being the only two types of LD transitions, will probably have occurred before the exit dream. And yes again, DILD's are generally what happens when you become aware during a false awakening -- but the DEILD comes after that, when you sense an awakening, and not during.

      Oh, and no need to defend yourself, BTW, I wasn't accusing you of anything.

      ...Still an Outlier, I suppose!
      Fair enough. (But I think you called ME the outlier in this post, haha)

      Hey, I'm enjoying this dialogue.

      Quote Originally Posted by IndigoRose View Post
      This sounds familiar to me but at the same time somewhat different from my experience.
      I've never understood why people have problems with opening eyes or moving when waking up for DEILD (and its various versions, including external-induced). I simply don't wake up fully, I just get conscious. In my case, I do feel my real body, so it isn't remnant REM. I can decide to wake up fully, for example, to write keywords/tags for my dream, but this is like another step and takes some willpower. Sometimes, I make the decision to write the keywords, and 5 or 10 minutes later, I think I wrote them but then remember, that I actually didn't and force myself to fully wake up to write them. Same as you, my FAs are often thought-like (writing keywords, talking to my husband, thinking about my dream).
      I think this is light conscious NREM because it happens to me randomly and relatively often, not just after a dream. Between two dreams or two REM periods in the morning, I find myself conscious in this way several times. This is how I can wake myself up for a natural WBTB or how I do my spontaneous WILDs. Unfortunately, when it comes to insomnia, this is what creates the illusion of not sleeping at all because every time I get conscious, my thought is "I am not sleeping" and it feels like a continuum, even though there were black-out periods (and then, as a bonus I get a dream about trying to sleep in some random location).
      I also have problems telling apart dreams and thoughts. Sometimes, I think like "was I just dreaming that or was I only thinking about it?" and I try to recall sensual experiences to tell the difference. With morning dreams, it usually isn't a problem (although NREM dreams can be confusing), but with early night dreams, I am often very confused.
      I am sure this gets mixed with some actual thought dreams or vague-visual dreams and also with some real awakenings and random hypnagogic or hypnopompic stuff, creating a confusing mess. I remember several occasions when I started to think about something in the middle of a dream, woke myself up (to write keywords or do WBTB), not paying any attention to the dream, and only after waking up realized that I was dreaming.
      Yes, this! I'm surprised it's unusual.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Sivason
      DEILD is a very simple WILD transition that begins with noticing, during your exit dream, that your body is waking up, and then holding on to that exit dream, and your lucidity, throughout the short process of waking and going back to sleep. I never intended to consider this a failing dream stabilization method, or a method at all. I was simply trying to point out that DEILD is by its nature a very simple thing and need not include any techniques or methods, and certainly not the complicated maze of techniques you guys seem intent on building.
      I think we do understand what you’re saying and agree with you. DEILD isn’t intended to be a technique just like WILD and DILD aren’t techniques either. They’re simply a way of describing a type of entry into a lucid dream. However, Separate to this, a DEILD “technique” has been created and if the source on the Lucid Guide website is correct has been circulating since 2007 and is what most of us are now referring to as a DEILD.

      Realising you’re exiting a dream, feeling yourself waking briefly and holding on to your awareness as you re-enter sleep is a DEILD. When this occurs it’s a nice simple re-entry and no techniques or anything complicated are required. But we’re not always so lucky to have such smooth re-entries. Sometimes we exit the dream and wake up enough that falling back into the dream is a little trickier. I think this is why the DEILD technique was created as some level of input and effort is required to get back into the dream. This requires more traditional WILD techniques to aid re-entry into the dream. Call this a “dream exit WILD” instead, I think that’s a better name for it anyway but despite been a form of WILD it’s slightly different because you’re already so close to sleep that it’s easier and quicker to achieve and dream chaining is still possible even if you wake up first.

      So in summary (correct me if I’m wrong about any of this)

      DEILD is the name given to a type of transition into a lucid dream in the same way as a WILD and DILD.

      DEILD technique is the name given to a method used to re-enter a dream after just waking from one.

      Regardless, PrincessFlare wanted to know how you re-entered a dream after waking up and I think we’ve all answered this in our own way. :-)
      Last edited by Tiktaalik; 11-04-2021 at 11:42 AM.
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      Maybe it was actually Stephen Laberge who made it complicated. Although ETWOLD doesn't mention DEILD at all, neither how to do it, nor the acronym (I checked).

      So we have two types of dreams (dream-initiated, wake-initiated) but three types of transitions (dream-initiated, wake-initiated, dream-exit-initiated) with the DEI being a subset of WI. And then techniques as whatever-induced under either DILD or WILD. Does it sound easy?

      Anyway, back to DEILD. WILD techniques are either anchoring techniques or REM/dream deepening techniques. When it comes to DEILD, we could say that it doesn't need any anchor, because it happens so quickly and that it doesn't need any deepening technique because REM/dream is still partially there.
      Or we could say that the ending dream and its impression in our minds is the anchor. Now, is the difference between these two descriptions just semantics? Or is it that they represent two fundamentally different approaches to DEILD?

      Tiktaalik is right that the simple no-anchor, no-deepening transition doesn't always happen (for example because our mind wakes up a bit too much too or because there is some outside distraction for a moment). So when we discuss these practicalities, are we still discussing DEILD transition, or are we on the WILD territory? And if it happens often to many people, are we wrong (complicating it for newbies) to discuss these practicalities in a DEILD thread?
      (Personally, I think dream exit is an anchor. So I see these imperfect transitions still as DEILDs.)
      Last edited by IndigoRose; 11-04-2021 at 03:29 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Sivason:

      I am in general agreement with your last post, except for one thing:



      No, I'm not. At all.

      DEILD, to me, is by no measure recovery from a failing lucid dream.
      I think what I am hearing is that you are still partially in a lucid dream and about to wake up. You prevent yourself from waking up by not focusing on your body and staying engaged with the dream.

      You have preserved the dream by not waking the rest of the way up. That in my book is preventing the dream from collapsing or failing. Good dream is about to end and you prevent that. In other words stabilization of a failing dream through some mind set or process. If that is the case (please explain if not) why consider this an induction process when you stay in the same dream?

      I am not going to argue the word "Outlier" here. You certainly are the outlier in this case. If 99/100 people thing a abbreviated WILD after your dream is done (exited) is DEILD and you are the 1/100 it does not matter if you got your definition from some author/scientist. It is like me knowing that the name Mexico is said with a solid H sound in the middle. That is not how it is said in the USA so if I do not say it with a X sound I am the clear outlier.

      In some sense you are complicating and confusing an otherwise straight forward discussion on how/why to WILD immediately after exiting a dream.

      Plus, what I call stabilizing by preventing a full wake up in the midst of a lucid dream, while I am part way in both, would involve me giving a few paragraphs of details on my mindset and method.

      If we were talking sports it sounds like you are saying "it is easy, stop falling down" while I would explain equilibrium, angular momentum and counter balance with the opposite limb. That is fine, maybe the answer was "stop fall down" but that may not be enough.

      We all love you as a forum member we have not met; you are a precious asset here and highly respected, but we are not talking about the same thing you are. As the WILD teacher maybe you could help with what we are calling DEILD even if it is not what you call DEILD. I looked up every definition I could find and every version was somewhat like the post wake up WILD we have been talking about.

      I do have a direct question relating to the thing you have been describing. Can you give more details about how you stay in the dream, if the dream is fading, gone, fully there, what have you? Do you have tips to make the process work?


      Afterthought: last night was a wonderful night as far as my lucid dreaming. I was a let to spend somewhere around an hour lucid dreaming (or more). Here is the thing. I used the thing Sageous is describing to prevent the existing dream from ending and allowing myself to not fully wake about three times and also the thing I am talking about (completely loosing the dream and waking) also about three times, transitioning in 15-30 seconds. With both tools I had such a long amazing lucid sequence that some may doubt it is possible. Both tools are needed.
      Last edited by Sivason; 11-04-2021 at 07:36 PM.
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      Hey everyone! as of today I've had 4 lucids. Thanks to Wbtb+MILD. I thank you all for helping me out!! About the lucids, 2 of them were pretty short, and the other two were decent almost 2 minutes long. So, uhm, I wake up prematurely and I was hoping you guys have some tips on how to stay in the dream longer. I was trying to learn about DEILD, so even if I did have a 4 second lucid, I'd be able to go back to it, but seems like that's a mess now. Anyway, I'd be happy if I had 10 minute lucids. Also I heard that if the thought of waking up comes to your brain, you'll wake up. I've Intrusive thoughts and this makes it harder. I don't know how to help it lol. And about DEILD, I will probably dig through all the material here and then I'll come back to all of you with the knowledge needed 😁.

      Thanks a lot!!!
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      Sigh... et tu, Sivason?

      I guess I would have lots of responses to your questions, but, you know, I have to ask myself, what's the point?

      Aside from the fact that in responding to you I would say the same things you have no interest in hearing, and I haven't the time, interest, or patience, to bother with another round of that, I've finally run up against a greater wall: The internet has so fully decayed actual discourse (replacing it with things like the apparent popularity contest you describe, where "correct" is overrun by "everybody's saying it," "established sources" like some kid who probably wasn't even born yet when I was chaining DEILD's back in the '80's who happened to write up a demonstrably incorrect DEILD tutorial here "way back" in '06, Youtube guides like The Charlatan Daniel Love, and, last but not least, the completely unhelpful demand that everybody is right, even when they are wrong) that anything I say that doesn't jibe with what's become "given" on the internet will simply be ignored, dismissed or, worst of all Sivason, be considered some new and different technique. So, in the end, I got nothin'.

      All apologies to folks like Princessflare who just want to learn this stuff, but are deluged with useless information and techniques by self-styled experts with big words and references.

      With that, I'm out.

      Best of Dreams, Folks,

      Sageous
      Last edited by Sageous; 11-04-2021 at 09:22 PM.

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      Sageous, I was actually interested in anything you could say here regarding my questions. They are valid questions about the thing you call DEILD and I am sure we are all curious to hear your thoughts. You seem actually upset about the name of things. I don’t get that. I just started using the name because it is the common use. Do you have any reference that supports your version? Not that that even matters. What does it matter even in the slightest what we call things? I know exactly what you are referring to and used it perhaps three times just last night. Who cares what I call it? I still honestly wanted to hear more on your experience with it and any tips that might be useful to me and beginners.
      What do you mean useless information and techniques?!?! I used an abridged WILD after complete awakening/ loss of dream three times this morning!!! How is this useless information I am sharing if it continued my lucid adventure for around an hour?


      Sidebar: I don’t try to get anyone to call WILD a Dream Trance even though that was what I called it from my yogic background. I honestly do not care what things are called. I just care that we both are preserving the art by passing it on to a new group of dreamers.



      --------------------




      Quote Originally Posted by Princessflare View Post
      Hey everyone! as of today I've had 4 lucids. Thanks to Wbtb+MILD. I thank you all for helping me out!! About the lucids, 2 of them were pretty short, and the other two were decent almost 2 minutes long. So, uhm, I wake up prematurely and I was hoping you guys have some tips on how to stay in the dream longer. I was trying to learn about DEILD, so even if I did have a 4 second lucid, I'd be able to go back to it, but seems like that's a mess now. Anyway, I'd be happy if I had 10 minute lucids. Also I heard that if the thought of waking up comes to your brain, you'll wake up. I've Intrusive thoughts and this makes it harder. I don't know how to help it lol. And about DEILD, I will probably dig through all the material here and then I'll come back to all of you with the knowledge needed ��.

      Thanks a lot!!!
      Ok everyone, sorry for all that, but let's move on. Congratulations!!! You are getting lucid and on the path. Don't abandon trying to do DEILD when these wake ups happen. There is no mess here. Everyone has given you useful advice and DEILD is perhaps the most useful way to have more lucids. You definitely want to focus on DILD but keep trying to DEILD. I think waking up is just completely natural at first. I see two reasons for this. DILD tends to happen when you are not in deep sleep and the really short one's may be happening literally during a phase when you were waking up naturally. Second, I think getting lucid at first is shocking to your brain. It sort of short circuits because the novelty of suddenly being aware in a dream is overwhelming.
      I have two bits of advice. Use a mantra for awhile during MILD that assures your brain this is good and normal. Perhaps something like this, "we will be aware in our dreams, this is good." Have a feeling as if you are telling your brain this, like it is a partner that may be afraid. Second tip is that the amount of stimulation in a lucid directly relates to how much training will be needed to stay in the dream. Basically the first few dreams do not try to look all about as this causes a huge demand in processing power while you force your brain to rapidly come up with scenery. Instead the first few dreams should be spent simply looking at your hands and trying to move your fingers while trying to say "I am dreaming" over and over. Good Luck and congrats again!
      Last edited by Sivason; 11-06-2021 at 03:38 AM.
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    20. #70
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sivason View Post
      Sageous, I was actually interested in anything you could say here regarding my questions. They are valid questions about the thing you call DEILD and I am sure we are all curious to hear your thoughts. You seem actually upset about the name of things. I don’t get that. I just started using the name because it is the common use. Do you have any reference that supports your version? Not that that even matters. What does it matter even in the slightest what we call things? I know exactly what you are referring to and used it perhaps three times just last night. Who cares what I call it? I still honestly wanted to hear more on your experience with it and any tips that might be useful to me and beginners.
      What do you mean useless information and techniques?!?! I used an abridged WILD after complete awakening/ loss of dream three times this morning!!! How is this useless information I am sharing if it continued my lucid adventure for around an hour?


      Sidebar: I don’t try to get anyone to call WILD a Dream Trance even though that was what I called it from my yogic background. I honestly do not care what things are called. I just care that we both are preserving the art by passing it on to a new group of dreamers.



      --------------------






      Ok everyone, sorry for all that, but let's move on. Congratulations!!! You are getting lucid and on the path. Don't abandon trying to do DEILD when these wake ups happen. There is no mess here. Everyone has given you useful advice and DEILD is perhaps the most useful way to have more lucids. You definitely want to focus on DILD but keep trying to DEILD. I think waking up is just completely natural at first. I see two reasons for this. DILD tends to happen when you are not in deep sleep and the really short one's may be happening literally during a phase when you were waking up naturally. Second, I think getting lucid at first is shocking to your brain. It sort of short circuits because the novelty of suddenly being aware in a dream is overwhelming.
      I have two bits of advice. Use a mantra for awhile during MILD that assures your brain this is good and normal. Perhaps something like this, "we will be aware in our dreams, this is good." Have a feeling as if you are telling your brain this, like it is a partner that may be afraid. Second tip is that the amount of stimulation in a lucid directly relates to how much training will be needed to stay in the dream. Basically the first few dreams do not try to look all about as this causes a huge demand in processing power while you force your brain to rapidly come up with scenery. Instead the first few dreams should be spent simply looking at your hands and trying to move your fingers while trying to say "I am dreaming" over and over. Good Luck and congrats again!
      thank you so much Sivason, i will be sure to do what you've advised me to! uh yeah, i had one more qs, maybe you overlooked it, so, does thinking about waking up, actually wake you up? i mean i dont want wake up in the middle of a wonderful lucid, just because the thought of waking up crossed my mind.

      thanks again
      Last edited by Princessflare; 11-06-2021 at 04:06 PM.
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    21. #71
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      Quote Originally Posted by Princessflare View Post
      does thinking about waking up, actually wake you up? i mean i dont want wake up in the middle of a wonderful lucid, just because the thought of waking up crossed my mind.
      No, it doesn't.
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      Quote Originally Posted by IndigoRose View Post
      No, it doesn't.
      But I've read this at so many places. So I thought it was real
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      Quote Originally Posted by Princessflare View Post
      But I've read this at so many places. So I thought it was real
      It's a myth. I think about waking up fairly often, never wake up from it.

      Another similar thing is thinking about scary things. It won't cause a nightmare, not on its own.
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    24. #74
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      But I've read this at so many places. So I thought it was real
      I think thats a negative expectation created because you heard it repeated so many times . In my personal experience , thinking about your body or waking up doesn't necessarily wake you up . I think this is a problem where people equate thoughts = Expectation . Like Thoughts are very surface level while expectations seems to be akin to a lingering feeling and then people think that the thought of waking up is going to wake them up even when in actuality , its the expectation that thinking about waking up is going to wake them up is what wakes them up . if you can let go of that expectation you can freely think about your body and waking life without actually waking up .

      Though I do think that there is merit to the saying "Desperation is going to wake you up" . I read this somewhere that if you are desperate in trying to do stabilising techniques and desperately trying to rub your hands or spin in circle , it automatically implies you are already expecting the dream to end soon and that actually ends the dream because of that expectation . I agree with that because in my last LD I applied this and wasn't desperate and it was my best LD so far in terms of stability and vividity .

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      Quote Originally Posted by SealedOrion View Post
      I think thats a negative expectation created because you heard it repeated so many times . In my personal experience , thinking about your body or waking up doesn't necessarily wake you up . I think this is a problem where people equate thoughts = Expectation . Like Thoughts are very surface level while expectations seems to be akin to a lingering feeling and then people think that the thought of waking up is going to wake them up even when in actuality , its the expectation that thinking about waking up is going to wake them up is what wakes them up . if you can let go of that expectation you can freely think about your body and waking life without actually waking up .

      Though I do think that there is merit to the saying "Desperation is going to wake you up" . I read this somewhere that if you are desperate in trying to do stabilising techniques and desperately trying to rub your hands or spin in circle , it automatically implies you are already expecting the dream to end soon and that actually ends the dream because of that expectation . I agree with that because in my last LD I applied this and wasn't desperate and it was my best LD so far in terms of stability and vividity .
      Oh this does make sense, so this is similar to the mirror thing. Thanks a lot, I'll try to stabilise in a laid back manner and convince myself that thinking about waking up won't wake me up.
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