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hello guys, so i have a different type of question today. ive been trying to DEILD and i set up an auto-shut vibration alarm, to wake me up. its been 2-3 days, but i find myself waking up a little before the alarm for no reason, and theres like 10-15 minutes left before the alarm goes off and then i cant sleep easily and be in a dream. and this can happen several times too. why does this happen and how do i fix it to ensure that i wake up exactly to the vibrations?
thanks a lot as always:D
Your natural clock is quite strong . Basically you set a subconscious intention to wake up everytime you set a alarm , if the intention is strong you internal clock will wake you up at the time of alarm . to be honest , I think natural awakenings are the "softest" way to wake up , like even if you wake up by an vibration alarm it would still be just as hard to fall asleep as it is without an alarm and likely even harder (imo) .
If you think you are having trouble sleeping just set an alarm earlier in the night so you get less sleep and are more tired
As SealedOrion has said this is because of your internal clock and strong intent to wake up at that time. I use this type of intention instead of alarms and I find it works ok for me. If you’re waking up 10- 15 mins before your alarm then that shouldn’t be an issue. Spend some time thinking over your lucid intent and practicing MILD or just turn the alarm off and try fall back asleep as normal. Waking up before your alarm shouldn’t really affect your attempt too much. Struggling to fall asleep may also occur even if you woke up with your alarm so I don’t think it’s directly related to waking up before it.
I have a question for you, Princessflare: why on earth are you setting an alarm to DEILD?
DEILD stands for Dream Exit Initiated Lucid Dream, with Dream Exit being the important part here. The way a DEILD works is by your noticing, during your dream, that you are beginning to wake up, and then allowing the awakening (actually a micro-awakening in most cases) but holding still and going right back to sleep while keeping the dream you just exited at the height of your thoughts; hopefully you will quickly return to sleep and that dream, in a lucid state. A successful DEILD transition can take just a few seconds, and, with practice, be completed without ever really waking up.
Did you notice that there is nothing about alarms in that sequence? That's for good reason: the last thing you want in DEILD is to be suddenly awakened in a manner that might pull you completely away from your last dream, and perhaps negate your ability to go right back to sleep. I don't even recommend using alarms for WILDs (where you're getting up, awake, and doing a WBTB) because, by their nature, they tend to wake you too quickly and too thoroughly. What I do recommend is that you stop taking instructions from whoever gave you those, because if they got the fundamental aspect of a DEILD wrong, God knows what other incorrect things they might be teaching you.
Oh, and as long as I'm here: DEILD's work best when you are exiting a lucid dream, because you can clearly recognize your body beginning to awaken when lucid. Though DEILDing from a non-lucid dream is possible (I've done so myself many times myself), it can be more difficult because you probably won't be able to notice that awakening process, and you'll be fully awake, your dream left behind, before you can get a chance to consciously return to sleep and you dream; that is a problem, but also a good excuse to get up, WBTB, and try a WILD.
I go into more detail about DEILD in my DVA WILD class, you can check out the section about it here, if you're interested.
i use alarms to wake me up at the certain times during rem(when im dreaming). so this way i will be sure to wake up from a dream. also you say that, one shouldnt actually wake up from the dream? i once noticed the moment the dream ended and i realised that i'm awake(i didnt open my eyes though) is this wrong?. And i got my instructions from YUPPIE'S DIELD GUIDE and dutchraptors deild guide- become ld God. are these erroneous? Also dont people use DEILD as a stand-alone method to get lucid from a non-lucid?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Lol, damn good chance it was me. I am a big proponent of Alarm Deild! It is likely my most go to method! I wonder what other incorrect things I have been teaching :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
I think they are confusing DEILD with CANWILD
^^ That could be true. Or not; what do I know?
Though I really don't believe that you can smoothly exit a dream with an alarm (sorry Sivason), and dreamers might be missing out on the simple beauty of an actual DEILD by doing so, I guess I should've kept to myself, being an old school guy who doesn't pay much heed to all the revisions that are made -- even to things that were simpler, and easier, before those changes were made. Maybe Yuppie knew better.
So never mind... use your alarms, and enjoy!
No,no,no. There are few of the real long term guys around! We need all the teachers we can get, and everyone values your input. Me and you sometimes have evolved different methods but that does not make one right and one wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
The value in the alarm method is a guaranteed way to wake from a dream and then transition right back into the realm of sleep perhaps multiple times. If I naturally wake from a dream that is great, but I can make myself wake from dreams perhaps half a dozen times in a row. I always preach "learn how to sleep first" meaning get good at the art of falling asleep. By the time I was twenty I could make myself sleep on the bleachers while people played basketball. Falling instantly back to sleep after an alarm wakes me is no challenge at all. The alarm doe not have to be a jarring noise as my phone comes with many pleasant options. I don't even need one that auto shuts off. Mine requires me to press the side button. No problem, my hand is the only part that moves and right back to sleep. I use the snooze feature allowing me a DEILD attempt every 9 minutes. That is the reason for the alarm! 100% likelihood of waking from a dream at certain times of my sleep and many attempts in the same session.
Not confusion. I am sure Sageous will agree we only need a few categories: WILD (w/ subset DIELD) and DILD (perhaps with subset MILD but I don't like even that as a subset). Everyone wants to post some tutorial and make up some set of letters like FILD, STILD, TRIELD, PRILD (just making these up, don't search for them, lol). There is no chance the guy posting CANWILD invented this method! It is a WILD because you start awake (woken by alarm) and it is DEILD because you take advantage of the REM timing you get from interrupting a dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by SealedOrion
Sageous, I would not think of something like this as a revision. I have no source material I am drawing on to revise. I do not think we should have a list of sources that are canon.
I' m not talking about sticking to, or revering, canon here Sivason; hell, I don't even like techniques, much less base my opinions on established "rules." I'm talking about taking without question the easiest transition to lucidity we have and making it more difficult for beginners. You possess an enormous amount of talent and expertise in this art, Sivason, and the fact that you can DEILD easily with alarms does not necessarily mean that novices will as well. I know you know this, and I mean no offense, but I felt it worth mentioning.
That said, I'm afraid my mind won't be changed on using alarms for WILDs, especially in the case of DEILD... They are simply too disruptive in most cases. As usual, mine is a lonely place ;) !
That is why I said we have evolved different methods and that it does not mean one is right and one is wrong. It is great for others to hear both of our approaches and logic for them. I am ready to say many of my methods are not beginner centric, but somebody with a hundred LDs under their belt might get value from them. It is also good for you to keep me grounded when I loose prospective on what others are likely to be able to follow or do. Thanks My Friend!
Yeah I agree most techniques are just alterations in techniques which Induce WILDs and DILDs . Its funny because people have given a technique name for every indivijual WILD anchor and MILD mantr
Nearly all my DEILDs have occurred after exiting a lucid dream but I’ve never tried using an alarm. If you use an alarm or not you’re always going to be faced with the challenge of falling back asleep. I find that the hardest challenge when attempting a WILD/ DEILD.
Perhaps Sivason has some tips?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
So, sageous, you recommend natural awakenings, to try DEILD, but the problem is what if I wake up at a non REM stage, what then? Do you have a way to wake up exactly at the REM stages? And your opinion is important too, you're pretty experienced and we all appreciate your teachings!! Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Speaking of unnecessary complications...
Here's something to think about, Princess flare: REM doesn't cause dreams, dreams cause REM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
REM, or Rapid Eye Movement, is a symptom of dreaming, and not the other way around. In other words, when you are dreaming you are in REM, so you literally create REM -- there is no need to catch it. The priority WILD/DEILD instructors (myself included, once) place on timing wake-ups to REM periods has caused a rise in techniques, like use of alarms, to catch something that will be there the moment you start dreaming.
There is one exception to this, of course: There are times during the sleep cycle when consciousness is simply too far removed from your sleeping body that dreaming, and thus REM, is very difficult. These periods generally occur during the early hours of sleep, which is why it's good to hold off trying WILD/DEILD until after several hours' sleep, so that you are at a time when your brain activity is more conducive to consciousness and dreaming (this is why they say that REM periods are close together late in the sleep cycle; it isn't so much that REM periods are more frequent as it is your brain activity allows waking-life consciousness to be present almost constantly late in the sleep cycle, so dreaming occurs more readily). But even this is only an exception, and not a rule: if you are able to summon enough consciousness during your early hours of sleep, you will be creating a REM period when there shouldn't have been one (according to all those sleep cycle charts). So even during those times when REM isn't supposed to be producible, it will be produced if you begin to dream.
On top of all that, the beauty of DEILD is that it continues your REM as long as you can continue DEILDing without fully waking up. LDers regularly "chain" their LD's with multiple DEILDs, extending REM periods substantially past their proscribed schedule. So there is no need to fully awaken during a REM period: if you are exiting a dream you are already in REM, and if your DEILD is successful, REM will follow right along with you because you are still dreaming.... this is why the "Dream Exit" part of DEILD is so important.
In other words, if you successfully DEILD, there is no need to time your awakenings to a REM period, because you will, by definition, already be in a REM period as you are exiting your dream. Among the only things I can think of that would threaten this continuation would be using an alarm or the need to visit the bathroom, because both have a tendency to both wake you up too fully and to separate you from the dream you are exiting (along with the state of mind causing that dream), making it very difficult to complete a DEILD.
The scientists call REM periods REM periods because they can see their subjects' eyes moving as they follow the action of their dreams... I often wish they called these times "dream periods," or "near-consciousness periods," as it would have made all our lives a bit easier.
tl;dr: Don't worry about catching REM with DEILD; you will be in a REM period, no matter what, if you are in a dream as you sense an imminent awakening. Setting an alarm, in my opinion, might actually end your REM period by abruptly ending your exit dream as you are woken up.
We agreed long ago that you would teach WILD (which includes DEILD) and I would teach Dream Yoga (meditation and mental discipline for dreaming) and that is still true. Just so everyone knows Sageous is the go to guy for all things WILD. As he has remarked above I often forget what teaching novices should include, which is a stepwise process of logical ideas that lead anyone to good results. You can not go wrong trusting him on the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Thinking is the enemy to sleep. using a mantra of any sort can remove thinking from the equation. That is why everyone used to say "count sheep." You need to replace thought with something less stimulating. Mantra could be counting breath but starting over at 10 each time, a prayer, an affirmation, or perhaps the chorus to a kids song. When you find you have started thinking and lost the mantra, do not judge, just resume the mantra. I find even words can be less effective than visualization of tactile experiences. A wonderful method is to imagine your hand tapping a finger like a metronome, or simply moving energy around like KI, Chi, Kundalini. this can remove even words from your mind but still fills the spaces random thought would be expressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiktaalik
Another thing is practicing relaxing the body. Meditation of various sorts can help with this. One I like is to be aware of gravity. It fills my mind in place of thoughts and reinforces to my body that I am comfortably laying down. One falsehood in my opinion is that you must not move. If you are uncomfortable how are you going to sleep? Sleeping in its self is an art that can be studied and perfected.
If you go through the stuff in the Dream Yoga class much of it will be very useful in this pursuit.
Then, thinking should be interrupted during the dream-exit phase of a DEILD transition and replaced with a rhythmic phrase or gesture until the dream is stabilized? I'm thinking I might have been hurting my chances by trying to recall the dream I was exiting...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
I'm pretty sure almost all guides say that you've to recall your dream until you are in the dream. Now idk if its wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occipitalred
^^ You are correct, Princessflare.
I would say that, with DEILD, there likely will be no time to start a mantra anyway; and if you did move to a mantra, I fear it might serve more as distraction than simply focusing on your exit dream. Also, I'm not sure that holding onto your exit dream really counts as thinking.
I assume that Sivason was giving (excellent) tips on falling to sleep in general...
I think recalling is too much. If you wake up from a vague non-lucid and barely remember it, so you need to really think to recall it, you won't be able to DEILD. If it is a high-presence non-lucid, you don't even need to recall, you just hold to the feeling of the last scene - that's when DEILD gets easy.
Personally, I can't DEILD from LDs. I am just too mentally active after waking up from a LD.
To get there (WILD), I have to naturally suppress all thoughts and inner voice (so no mantra, no counting). I can have some vague non-verbal thoughts at the back of my mind (keeping the intention there or tracking an anchor) but not more. When I start dreaming, I can increase my lucidity and mental activity, once the REM/dream is stable. But when I leave it, I can't go down where I need to be for DEILD.
The thing about the relationship between dreams and REM is completely mind-boggling to me. I know there are people who can force dreaming in NREM or force REM (or at least claim it and I have no reason not to believe them).
But I just can't and everything I know about the science of sleep and about my sleep patterns tell me that it isn't something most people can do. Is it learnable? Maybe. Or is it only possible for some people, based on their physiology? Maybe.
What I know about my sleep patterns (after a lot of playing with Fitbit and taking notes after waking up from dreams) is that unless I get an insomnia period, my sleep patterns in the morning are fairly regular. 40-70 minutes of NREM, 15-30 minutes of REM. Rinse and repeat.
I can't DEILD at the end of a REM period. The natural awareness at that point is too high, and there is no "REM pressure".
I can't enter WILD quickly after a natural (after a dream) awakening unless it is micro-awakening in the middle of REM.
Even if I fall asleep almost immediately (not attempting any technique), I don't dream for another hour.
So if I want to WILD, I set an intention to wake up/get aware again later, from NREM, and I'll go from there.
The way how it works for me is that there is "REM pressure", a need for REM. This is at its lowest just after waking up from REM/dream and at its highest just before the next REM. When I get a lot of sleep disruptions combined with some insomnia, I can even feel this, I recognize the slight physiological changes that come just before REM and changes in my thoughts and any random imagery/dreamlets.
There are some exceptions to this. Sometimes, I am more free-dreaming. But most of the time, it works this way for me.
It could be that I am "special", an extreme light sleeper, with too unstable and fragmented sleep in the morning hours.
Exactly, tips on The Art of Falling Asleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Ideally you are already so close to sleep in DEILD that such methods would not be needed. I still would avoid thinking however. You can still follow Sageous' method with out literally thinking, as in a running inner monologue. He says focus on your dream. Focus does not need to mean talking to yourself in your head. For example, say I was having a dream about walking in the park and enjoying the feel of sunshine on my face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occipitalred
One approach that I would personally avoid goes like this: Thinking to self- "OK, time to try this. Where was I? I was in a park. What park? I don't recall. Think, did it look familiar? Was anyone there? Ok, no info. What was I doing? I was walking. Was someone with me? Not that i recall. What else? The sun' I remember feeling the sun on my face. Ok, park, walking, sun on face. Park, walking, sun on face. Why am I still awake? --- In my opinion this is ok to begin with, but is less productive than it could be with practice in not thinking.
Second approach (how I would do it): Imagines a green park like generic setting. Feels the rhythmic tactile feelings involved in walking. Novice = imagination, advanced = developed visualization skills. Feels sun on face, just as before imagination or good visualization. Walks in imagination through a generic park enjoying the sun. Physical body disappears. Images come into focus. Begin LD.
1) Exactly! See above. However it does not need to be high presence non lucid. If you barely recall anything automatically just visualize any dream scene like my walk in the park, or take the vaugest fragment and run with it. In my experience it will be the mental work of attempting true recall that might over stimulate you, preventing a rapid return to sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
2) High level of training required (decade +) and maybe natural physiology. Link to related paper on nREM lucid proof
I had a very good night with much more dreaming thab usual and much smaller NREM gaps in the morning. I think my brain is trolling me :)
Also, twice, I returned to a non-lucid dream non-lucidly after awakening from it (something I used to do a lot as a kid and know how to do it, it's adding the lucidity, where it gets tricky). Although both were dreams that ended prematurely because of a too emotional scene.
My success rate with WILD transitions is maybe 1 in 10 (maybe slightly better, but no better than 1 in 5, and I am talking about transitioning only because that's the tricky part for me, not getting there). I guess this could be similar with DEILD, because it is almost the same thing. Making it better (learning to control my mind) would help me hugely in my LDing progress.
Sivason, your advice is golden. I have a question for you about your area of expertise, a little bit side-stepping from the main topic but relevant to the thinking part of it.
I want to elaborate on this because I don't know if most people function in the same way or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
When I meditate on breath (let's say with counting), I can be aware of the count (not losing it) and breath and at the same time think about something at the back of my mind. It's like there are two separate lanes, or even three, on the first the count, on the second the awareness of my breath and on the third the thinking. Obviously, when I notice doing this, I'll suppress the third lane and try to give 100% of my attention to the first and second.
I also like your sensory awareness practice (sounds) and this is how I "store" the sounds I am trying to track simultaneously.
I read somewhere that this is an ADHD thing, that we need to use 100% of our mental capacity all the time, and when we do something that doesn't take 100%, we fill the rest with something else, being very mentally active all the time. And neurotypical people don't do this. But I don't really believe this.
Anyway, tonight, I noticed that my "I am dreaming" mantra on the 1st lane caused a collapse of a dreamlet/HI/potential forming dream. So I tried to move the mantra to the third lane and keep it there in a way that wouldn't be disruptive to the imagery (keeping the 1st lane blank so the imagery can exist there). And surprisingly, I was able to do it but it was very hard to do. It seemed like something I could practice.
The question for you is: Does this make any sense to you?
hello Sivason, hope you're well. so i had 2 questions for you:D. Lets say i woke up from a dream, and i am trying to DEILD, now lets take your dream for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
in the dream i only walked through the park and saw the sun, thats it. i didnt feel the sun on my face and neither did i feel the wind on my skin. while DEILDing can i imagine these sensations? because i dont really have a lot of stuff to put my mind to.
my second question for you is about WILD, i tried it a few hours ago during a late afternoon nap, and i felt these vibrations/buzz/goosebumps in my head, they lasted for about 5 seconds, my heart rate was high, but i kept my breathing to a perfect normal rate, however i swallowed and the sensation stopped. i also remember feeling a little dizzy in those seconds. could you please analyse and tell me what i should do from here to get a lucid, and how close i'm, what should i improve?
thanks a lot!!
hello IndigoRose, how are you doing:D? i had a question, if you dont mind. so in your last paragraph, what do you mean by collapse of a dreamlet? i, almost everytime, have tons of such scenes, while trying to WILD and they keep ending and then i regain consciousness(perhaps this is what you mean by collapse?) and is this a dream forming around you? if yes, how do i enter it?Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
thanks a lot!!
I mean random imagery. The nuanced classification doesn't matter. By collapse, I mean that it suddenly stopped, even though it was developing nicely. No significant difference in consciousness or awareness. This imagery is dreamy in the sense that it is built on free spontaneous associations, and needs passive awareness to go on, too active thinking goes against it (replaces it as the primary stream of consciousness).Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
If the timing is right, it can change into a dream quickly. Sometimes, the transition is smooth from these, no vibrations etc., just visual. It happens when the imagery is immersive enough, so the awareness of the real body disappears and moves into a dream body. But doing this on purpose rarely works for me. When it does, there is always significant movement involved.
But it is also possible to see these images and be nowhere near a dream.
I am not the expert here on teaching WILD but I would say that it isn't good when your awareness goes up and down. It is better to keep it steady and passive. Or slowly silence the thinking and guide your mind slowly and gradually where it needs to be through the process of falling asleep. Paying too much attention to your body or to the imagery or anything else is wrong.
You can skip some time by losing the awareness and regaining it later, some techniques are even based on this (like the technique when you hold something in your hand and it falls from your hand shortly before the transition, "waking you up" a little bit but personally, I am not a fan of this. Sudden spikes in awareness/thinking are not good.
But Sivason or Sageous are much better at answering similar questions.
Great tips and nicely summarised. These days I do meditation and concentrate on my breath as it comes in and out with a 2 word mantra on top of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
Breath in “Stay”… Breath out “Aware”.
When I was a kid I used to sing the song “Silent night” to myself over and over. It worked really well. I may actually try this again!
I’m also trying a form of visualisation where I roll a tennis ball around in my hands. I can easily imagine the feel and movement of the the action and it’s a simple and repetitive thing to focus on. I haven’t had success with it yet but it may yet.
Sounds like you were very close! This is usually the first sign you’re about to transition into a dream. When you hit this point you need to relax into it and not over think. A lot of people are distracted by swallowing and itches but you have to ignore them as best you can. Any distraction will snap you straight back to being awake. I tend to look into the darkness behind my closed eye lids. I’ll usually see hypnogogia swirling around but I look past it as if the dream is hiding somewhere behind it. I then imagine reaching out with my hands and attempt to feel something physical within the forming dream. If I’m lucky I’ll find something to grab onto and I’ll be able to pull myself into the dream from there. Your experience may differ of course. None of my WILDs have ever been exactly alike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
Some great tips in this thread as well -
https://www.dreamviews.com/attaining...wild-help.html
Thanks a lot Tiktaalik. 🙏Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiktaalik
IndigoRose- Multi layered thought. I am very familiar with this. I think most people have this but may not have subtle enough awareness to realize it. I can have exactly the sort of thing you talked about. It is just like if you stopped the mantra and caught your self thinking. Certainly do not start thinking about how you should not be thinking, lol. In this case you kept everything in order and started thinking anyways. Just smoothly move back into not thinking if you can. I posted a lesson in Dream Yoga about suppressing emerging thought, perhaps something in there could be helpful. Definitely keep your anchor on a second or third level and the first layer should be empty. That is if you understand multi layer thought and have some control of it. The top level of thought is to focused and intense for use in anchoring. The challenge is keeping that first level blank, but again perhaps something in the lesson I mentioned will help. Any one reading this that does not follow what we are talking about, just think of it like this- you want to barely be aware, so your mantra or counting should be like a day dream, not like trying to focus or remember something.
Princessflair- You can certainly imagine/ visualize any thing dream like you want. It actually does not matter at all how true your pretend/ focus on last dream / imagery is to the last dream. Maybe I actually was dreaming some elaborate thing about laboratories and aliens and mice with a love scene and then an earthquake because of something the lab did to the mouse. Now I partially awake, or my alarm vibrates bringing me partially awake. I do not need to remember the plot or try to hold true to what was just going on. Maybe the only part that I can grab with out risking thinking too much is the idea of a mouse. I imagine holding a mouse. I watch in my minds eye as it nibbles on cheese. I picture myself petting the mouse. The mouse comes into focus and my waking body is gone. LD has started and I am holding a mouse. Basically any imagery that makes your brain continue in the fantasy realm will work. It could even be 100% unrelated if you can not grasp a fragment of the dream.
As for the second question (about WILD) that is a question for Sageous. He has spent hundreds of hours creating material and answering questions in the WILD course. He would be glad to help you too, I imagine. Briefly, the sensations are just part of experiencing altered consciousness as you begin to sleep with awareness. They can be interesting but are not important. If they come and go, so be it. Swallowing or moving to scratch might bring you back a notch toward wakefullness, but trying to not swallow or scratch will be worse. Swallow if you need to and try not to even think about it.
Tiktaalik- that tennis ball visualization is perfect. Should be very useful.
Sivason, thanks, it makes perfect sense. I am happy to hear that you know what I am talking about.
I should do a thorough read of your yoga class, I just skimmed through it before, never read it fully. I could probably benefit a lot from many of the exercises and info there.
I had a perfect WILD today. I did MILD, was trying to fall asleep, vibrations, I remembered this thread and managed to be there just enough. Then, my sense of proprioception shifted slightly, I reached with my hands, felt a wall next to me and floor under my legs and I knew I was standing in my bedroom, next to my bed. No vision yet, so I walked along the wall, following it with my hand, feeling the texture, and then I stabilized my dream body (another perfect idea I got from you), and as I did that, I started seeing.
so i woke up today after a dream, completely still, without an alarm(thanks Sageous!!!)
now i lay still, tried to recall my dream, and i just kept thinking about what happened. i then swallowed but didnt give it a thought, after a few minutes nothing happened and i swallowed again and after 4 to 5 minutes i just gave up. so any tips guys? i read somewhere that i should just keep focusing on my breath until im there. will this work?
thanks!!:D
You kind of just answered your own question. Read back on this thread about not trying to recall, and not thinking about the last dream. Just imagine you are in a dream. If the last dream stands out without you trying then imagine you are continuing in that dream. If not, just imagine you are in any dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
Note that the one way you clearly failed in the attempt was that you were still awake. You must fall swiftly back to sleep. If a lucid dream does not happen, that is fine, try again next time. If you fail to sleep, you clearly can not succeed.
All in all, it seems like you made a good effort, Princessflare, with possibly one exception:
Remember that DEILD stands for Dream Exit etc, and not Dream Recalled etc. The reason DEILD works, and works very well, is because you are in a dream when you notice you are waking up, and you can stay attached to that dream while allowing your body to quickly go back to sleep. If you are awake and struggling to remember your dream, are still awake after 4 minutes, and awake enough to notice swallowing (good job not making it important, BTW!), then you are very likely already past the point of a successful DEILD transition; it's probably time to do a WBTB and try a WILD.
Keep in mind that DEILD's work best when you are exiting a lucid dream. They can be done when exiting NLD's, sure, but you might want some experience DEILDing from LD's before being disappointed by not transitioning from a NLD.
Also, doing things like focusing on your breath during a DEILD attempt, or, unfortunately, just deciding to do that (much less doing it) also implies it's time to switch to classic WILD. DEILD really is that fast.
I know I'm becoming an outlier on this, and that actual DEILD transitioning may be lost in the thick fog of endless techniques, but I hope you'll consider what I've said... and also that you'll try to keep your mind open for awakenings as you're dreaming. With practice, and time, DEILD moments will arrive!
Now I'm confused. You mean that i should actually fall asleep after imagining myself in the dream, or should I stay awake until I feel something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
You 100% MUST fall asleep! The way DEILD works gives you about a 1 minute window to pull it off. The reason DEILD is so effective is that sleep is interrupted while your brain is in a state conducive to vivid dreams. Also you are very very close to sleep having just left sleep. Gain some awareness by imagining you are still dreaming. That is your anchor like a WILD attempt. The imagining is to keep you BARELY aware while you allow your body to go back to sleep, as in go right back to sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
Many people at first think they are waiting for something to happen in WILD attempts. They hold still and try not to move. They wait for feelings or buzzing, what have you. They are forgetting one obvious fact. You must be asleep to dream (there are exceptions at expert levels.) This is why I preach that you need to learn how to fall asleep.
To answer the question clearly, yes I mean you should swiftly fall asleep, but I am going to correct one thing in the way you worded it. The change is fundamental to getting what me and Sageous have been getting at.
1) You mean that i should actually fall asleep after imagining myself in the dream? This is wrong.
2) You mean that i should actually fall asleep while imagining myself in the dream? Yes, this is it.
The goal with all WILD/DEILD is to fall asleep while staying slightly conscious. It is a very serious change from how you've probably experienced things before. What you are attempting is far from easy and even experienced old guys like me and Sageous admit that it is very hit or miss. It is however, well worth the time and effort. Don't get discouraged!
As Sivason said , The more important part is falling asleep and the visualisation part is just for maintaining Awareness . One think is to focus on the intent of lucidity while waiting for the dream to form by itself , you can try "grabbing on" to a passing thought or image that your mind conjures up when you are DEILDing and then try to stabilize it with traditional techniques like Touching the dream objects , feeling sensations , spinning and doing Reality checks and this could turn that image or thought into a full fledged Lucid Dream
I have been playing with orange kittens in waking life. It causes my hypnogogic images to morph into the kittens naturally. I then imagine interacting with the kittens for my "imagine you are dreaming" bit. Because the images are already flickering in my minds eye it is easiest to interact with these images, rather than trying to picture anything else (like last dream). I imagine myself petting them and visualize the sensations involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by SealedOrion
Hey, I just DEILDed right now, thanks to this thread and I used Sivason's tip right above this post so I will share. I am a DILDer. I don't WILD, I don't DEILD, I just DILD. So this is a breakthrough for me!
In my dream, had been staying at home for quite a bit with substories about using communal cheese to make soles for our feet, meeting neighboor's dogs, friends bonding over an unknown shared love for manta rays, random people chilling in my bedroom, getting a job for my brother by recounting a tragic tale while bawling my eyes out, etc. But now I was visiting a street bakery. 32$ for 30cm very thin bread sticks, what? This place is too fancy for me. Leaving the place, I am now indoors in a place with big halls and staircases. Lots of people are here, but I am stuck on my knees. I can't stand up or walk. I don't get frustrated. I don't even get surprised I am dreaming, I am just thinking more clearly. And it's very as-matter-of-fact-ish but it is coming from a place of awareness: "I don't need to walk in a dream to move" so I just move. Still on my knees, I move amongst the throngs of people coming down the staircase. Slowly at first, but then I get some speed and even do a swirl proudly waving at the people around me and talking to one in particular. This must have been my most recent dream because lucidity was at a peak but maybe not. All I know, is I was in bed, remembering all these dreams. I never feel I can go back to the dream at this moment, I just think I am awake. But this thread crossed my mind, and I thought "Sivason said I have a one minute window" (aware that he didn't mean this literally/precisely) "Has it been one minute already?" "Could be but it's plausible" "What the hell, I am thinking now! This is not good!" "I'm still not properly awake", very much still in the cognitive daze of transitioning from sleep to wakefulness. My eyes naturally stayed close this whole time (which was a few seconds). "Starting now!" I put everything I learned from this thread in practice. My repetitive imagined movement is me shuffling cards counting never past 10, and I try to put this mind content in my second lane but I'm not sure I even got there this time. I forgive all my previous thoughts, I just latch to the first visuals in my mind. I want it to be about the Task of the Year and I hold a figurine of my superhero but I see the most readily available images are of a sexual nature. Guys. Damn it, but just got to go to the place of least resistance. I confidently say "I am dreaming" while exploring these visuals. And as soon as that, I am walking through a changeroom, creepily judging each man I pass. Many groups are already indulging in softcore orgies. No one is doing it for me (they are a bit too young for my taste). I'm just surprised my mind can come up with so many faces, all good ones, and I'm here being picky. I eventually make it to the end, to the last crew, everyone has left one guy on a bench. He's the last one so he'll have to do. He is kind of cute. I sit beside him, flirtatious. He stops me "I have to be going but we could share information and see each other when I am free." I laugh knowingly and say "My time is about over so there is no use planning for the future." My mind let's go to a narrator. After the narrator finishes narrating, I find an ingrown hair in my mouth and decide to pull it with my tongue. Gross but I do snatch it and I wake up with the pointed pain. It lasts through a period of time in which I thought I was awake. I realize I gave up to the dream way too early because through all of the narration and the ingrown hair pain, I was still not fully awake and could have used that time to chain another DEILD.
So thanks everyone! I can DEILD now. Next stop: WILD (more honestly, my next stop is probably more chaining DEILDs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Occipitalred
congratulations!!! this gives me a lot of motivation. these people have really dropped great tips. thanks all of you!!!!
as always i have a qs:D. so um, (correct me if i'm wrong) at the moment where you decided to begin everything, you began repetitively imagining the sensation of shuffling cards?? what do you mean by second lane?? what do you mean by forgiving prev thoughts(does it mean to ignore and them and block them?). now what do you mean by first visuals? (is it a dreamlet?) also did you swallow during the attempt(i know it doesnt interrupt your attempt, but i feel like when i swallow, all the feeling in my body just vanishes) and how long was the whole process??
i'm really sorry for so many questions, i hope you will answer atleast 1:embarrassed:
Thanks princessflare!
- Repetitively shuffling cards is my visualization of choice to replace thinking when trying to fall asleep or/and WILD. Sometimes as I shuffle, there's a chance one of the cards will fall naturally (as my mind attempts to fight the routine) and then I get to see the art on the face of a playing card or a tarot card. This helps me commit to the repetitive action. I find bobbing my finger too boring. Kind of like counting sheep, and next, it's a rabbit instead.
- The second lane refers to IndigoRose's metaphor. In your consciousness, I could be focusing my attention on counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, but also be aware of an inner dialogue "Didn't I count past these numbers already? Why am I still not falling asleep. I might be doing all of this wrong" and maybe you vaguely see sheep jumping over a fence with your inner eye. Depending on what your attention is focused on, the counting might be in the "primary lane" and the dialogue and visualization might be in secondary lanes, until you focus on the dialogue and now the dialogue is first lane, and the counting is second lane. Any moment, any of these things can fall out of consciousness (outside of lanes altogether). This is the mental equivalent of listening to someone talk but also being aware of your environment. Within your consciousness at any moment, there are more than one thing, and there's kind of a hierarchy of what your attention is focused on at any given moment. And as your mind moves around, anything could fall out of consciousness. So, I'm not sure exactly, how I want to organize my lanes so to speak during a falling asleep/WILD/DEILD attempt, but what I wrote is that I wanted shuffling cards to be in my awareness, but not have my full attention. My full attention was meant to be aimed at emptiness. Other thoughts would have popped into my mind about then like "I will be dreaming" "I am asleep" etc... So, that was the plan anyway. The reason you were confused, I think, is because I mentioned this in my post, but I also said I might not have done this. I tried this every time I fell asleep since my participation in this thread earlier, but I am not sure I did it for this DEILD, because I was already asleep and did not need to fall asleep. My memories are not perfect, sorry. So my retelling is jumbled. I had a lot of dreams to recall this morning so the exact chronology is lost :P
- Playing with my superhero figurine (turning it in my hands) is supposed to replace shuffling the cards as a reminder of my goal to do the Task of the Year.
- About forgiving my previous thoughts: At this point, I was aware that I was thinking and thinking about thinking. You know: "I am thinking too much and this is waking me up. Stop thinking! This is also thinking, stop it" So instead of thinking my way out of thinking, or exerting effort to stop thinking which could wake me up, I "forgave" my thoughts (I stopped thinking about them, like, it's fine whatever, I am aware of them and ready to move on), not: "STOP THINKING." Moving on, if I was still awake, I would just shuffle cards or play with the figurine. I also sometimes imagine I am in a waiting room playing with the armchair. Waiting to be asleep. I don't know what I am waiting for honestly. Sometimes, I am aware that I can't move and I think maybe this means I am asleep but I don't feel asleep other than the fact I can't move. Maybe someone can clear this out for me, haha, but I just keep waiting. Anyway, today, it was a DEILD, I was already asleep so I was already ready to not do something so repetitive and visualize a dream...
- About first visuals:
I do wish Sivason would share some thoughts on this: there are two kind of inner eye visuals I can distinguish. The easiest way to talk about them is to talk about these restaurants where there are no lights and eat blind. I went to such a restaurant last month. I'm not sure if any of you know about them. Anyway, if you are interested, do look it up. In this restaurant, there is no difference between having your eyes open and looking at the back of your closed eyelids. It's pitch black. Now, I can imagine a scenery in my mind's eye, but it does not appear against my closed eyelid. Let's call that the imagination eye. It's like how you remember a dream or a memory. If you picture something in your mind, it's likely to be this. But, in the restaurant, I knew it was the perfect place to go further. So while my friends were talking, I would sometimes watch intently at the darkness. Much like Sageous' character in Oneironauticus, I was blessed with a dark room where my eyes were devoid of sensory information. And so, I looked for any image to spark. During the dinner, I succeeded three times in triggering images. The first time, I was privy to a show of a wild sea, waves flowing and ebbing. Waves crashing. Second, I watched abstract explosions. Things like that. These, I could vividly see with my open eyes. But they are also visualization (hallucinations maybe. I have less control but I was well aware I chose to see those things). And generally, this happens with your eyes closed and more likely around sleep. Let's call this the visualization eye. When I talk about visualization, I refer to both my imagination and visualization eyes. And both can be at play simultaneously. So, I wonder what Sivason has to say about these two eyes in terms of visualization.
Anyway, so here it goes: when I talk about shuffling cards or playing with the figurine, it's with my imagination eye/hand. When, I talk about first visuals, it's also about my imagination eye. But while the shuffling of cards is planned and voluntary, the first visuals is just the first thing that comes to mind. And I think there is a spectrum between the imagination and visual eye maybe, but definitely, when the dream begins, it's my visualization eye. I see things with my eyes, not just my mind. And today, during the DEILD attempt, the first visuals were imagination eye, and honestly, they were empty. I did not see guys, I just knew that's what I was imagining. Some people say they can't visualize, and it's because they need a vivid image. You just have to go with it. Sometimes, the imagination eye's image is invisible but you know what it is. Like, recall a memory. Maybe, there is not a clear image, but you know what you are recalling. So yeah, I knew I was imagining nondescript guys and I just went with it and then I started seeing with my visualization eye: everything was vividly clear.
When seeing with your imagination or visualization eyes, you can "imagine" the missing parts and just roll with it. For example, if in your dream, you are not wearing clothes, you can just imagine them and if you don't see them, that's fine. It's just part of the spectrum of imagination to visualization. In my DEILD, I was dissatisfied with the men I was seeing, but I should just have imagined one I wasn't seeing or imagined that one of them was the way I wanted it. Or that the one leaving was staying. Then, imagination becomes visualization. But it's often easier to trust what looks most vivid. But things aren't as they seem anyway.
- How long was it between the dream exit and dream re-entry. It felt like less than one minute, but it felt like my mind did a lot in that time.
- I don't recall swallowing but I can't guarantee I didn't move. I just don't remember that. I think I was not very aware of my body much. I was really in a space of thoughts as you wake up.
I hope I answered the questions without confusing you more!
Maybe sensory deprivation caused hallucinations? I read that complete darkness (+ silence ideally) can cause very vivid daydream-like open-eye hallucinations in 10-15 minutes. You restaurant wasn't quiet but the darkness still probably made your vizualizations easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occipitalred
For Princessflare, regarding swallowing: When I am truly relaxed, I never feel the need to swallow. If you do, simply swallow and don't think about it. But it is a sign of not being relaxed enough (but again, don't think about it this way, because thinking "oh no, I just needed to swallow, that's bad" would make you even less relaxed).
I had a DEILD or superquick WILD on Friday, very early at night, only an hour or hour and a half after falling asleep. I was feeling my husband touching me or hearing him talking to me, so I woke up and asked him, what was happening (assuming I was probably snoring). He said he didn't said anything and that I was confused. I realized I was dreaming it (probably, but it also could be a HH). I checked the time, rolled over, calmed my mind and entered the dream in something like 30 seconds. The timing made it super easy to go back to sleep.
i mean thrice now, i have come to a point while WILDing, where my heart starts racing, arms and legs get a weird tingly feel and i start feeling dizziness(?). and today i reached this stage in 20 minutes ( quickest time). during all these sensations, i'm really calm, and my breathing never gets fast, but then after 7-10 seconds, i automatically swallow(its literally a reflex), and then in 2 seconds the sensations subside. after i did swallow, i didn't pay it any mind either, and told myself that nothing has happened, but the sensations still stopped. i don't really know what to do from here. how do you relax yourself to such an extent that you dont notice the reflex??Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
while those sensations occur, should i keep waiting or should i imagine a tactile sensation?
thanks IndigoRose!!!
Hey everyone! Ive been keeping up with this thread since pretty much the start but not commented on anything as im not even quite sure what i experience is a deild attempt, throughout the past week in the mornings i suddenly find myself awake and when i have one sudden thought to sleep i feel my body get really heavy and a loud ringing starts in my ears, with some vibrations too, and yet i can never get past that and successfully transition into the dream so im gonna keep at it and see if next time i can do it, if a deild is what is actually happening and not me just imagining these sensations
If you're waking up from a dream, only then it's possible to perform a DEILD. So do you remember exiting a dream? If not then it may just be a canwild with a natural awakening i guess. (I can be wrong, I'm a not as experienced as others here)Quote:
Originally Posted by Husna12345
I simply don't have that reflex at that stage at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
I had heart palpitations once, in my first attempt, and never again. Some increase in heartbeat happens, that's normal for the REM start, but I often don't even notice. I generally don't pay attention to my body with the exception of the kinesthetic hallucinations because I find them helpful but the rest is more distractive than helpful.
I used to have a big problem with the vibrations coming and then subsiding without anything happening. I even had a thread about it. For some time, my workaround around it was V-WILD. But these days, I don't need it. I used to "cheat" using only the intention as an anchor, basically shutting off my brain completely for a minute or less before the dream starts. Now, I can be more aware while it is happening without ruining it. It has taken a lot of practice and will need even more to get more reliable.
Im honestly not even sure my recall is all over the place and sometimes it takes me a while to realise i just had a dream and i have to be wide awake for that whereas this experience happens when i just wake up
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I have this too, the vibrations come and go and nothing happens past that and im not sure what to do
I like your thoughts on it. I think everything you described is pretty much on the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occipitalred
I think there are about 4 levels of visualization. It starts off with our ability to remember things. As you said this is some sort of imagery even if it is not like pictures. We can imagine things and know what they look like. I call this seeing in the mind's eye. When I ask one to picture an apple we can all get an image in that subtle part of our mind.
The next step is the beginning part of what you experienced, but everyone should bare in mind you have spent many years now thinking about dreams and visualization. A beginner probably could not expect waves but something more like colors and faint static. Through practice this actual imagery (it is seen as with the eyes) can be developed and then controlled. How is it controlled? Through the first step which is the mind's eye/ imagination. Everyone follow this link if you are not familiar with Visualization Training lesson. If I wish to see a triangle I first imagine a triangle, just as you pictured an apple when I mentioned it. This forms a framework that the actual visuals spring from.
The next stage is dream like imagery which as far as I know requires a meditation state like WILD practice or being hypnogogic. This is on the level of what some call dreamlets. It is about as intense as your dreams will get in Lucid Daydream or nREM lucids. Perhaps your waves were a little closer to this. If you had been able to shut out other distractions and were meditative you may have seen flying fish jump above the waves and a night sky too. This sort can be spontaneous in hypnogogia, but can also be created and controlled. How is that? Just as step two, it starts with step one. I imagine a triangle and it forms a framework for actual visualization of a triangle, but it starts in the mind's eye. Now that I actually see a triangle if I relax into a deep state I can dream (waking or in sleep) that it is actually a pyramid. I say dream because this is more of a letting go than a controlling thing. It is hard to describe how one "dreams" something.
This is what I talk about when I mentioned kittens. It starts with imagining kittens. Then I cause some curved lines to appear and move about and create a bit of orange about the lines. I believe they look like kittens and actual images of kittens appear. I interact with them using the tactile visualization and drift off to sleep using the kittens and interaction as my anchor. This is far easier in DEILD than in standard WILD as I am mostly asleep and very hypnogogic.
The final level is what your brain does in REM dreams. How do I control that. Of course some of it comes to other training, like suppressing thoughts and belief, but for a large part it is the same stepwise process. I want rain. I imagine slanted lines across my field of vision. That allows me to actually see slanted lines. I dream this is rain, it becomes rain like on a level you could achieve in meditation. This may be similar to what rain may be drawn like in anime, My REM enhanced visual experience runs with it and I am now dreaming that is raining. It may be seemingly as real as in waking life.
Hope some of that helps. In terms of the topic "help with DEILD" after you wake and realize it is time to DEILD don't think if you can help it, but do start picturing things. Anything. Better if it is congruent with your last dream but do not focus on recalling it. If you are practiced with visualization it will help but don't stress. You have to start where you are currently and get better with practice.
Here is an example from past dreams of how I do this from a lucid which is much much easier. Let's say I am having an adventure and I meet a woman. She says something provocative and is so very appealing. This causes the dream to start collapsing and I become aware of my body and I am now out of the dream. Time to DEILD. I want to keep my imaginings very very simple. I need to limit thought but I can think a tiny bit about the thing I am imagining. By do not think I mean do not think about waking, sleeping, DEILD, recall or anything other than imagining you are in fact dreaming. My thoughts may go like this. "The lady is wearing a necklace and I am looking at it." I use visualization (beginners= imagination) to see a curved line. "I see the necklace, look at the thing hanging on it." I visualize a small circle and pretend it is something on the necklace. "It looks like a locket" I imagine touching the locket and trying to open it. This whole time I have forgot about my body and drifted back to sleep, but stayed aware using the imaginings as my anchor. The locket comes into detailed view as does her neck. I am now back in a lucid dream. This is a traditional DEILD which is done from a lucid dream that collapses. As we have been discussing it can be from any dream, but it is not as easy. For non-lucids you may just have to make up something to pretend/ visualize (such as me and kittens.)
Thank you Sivason, I somehow needed this for it all to "click" in my mind. :)
Had an interesting DEILD/ WILD experience last night.
After maybe an hour laid in bed awake, I finally drift off into a dream (or maybe dreamlet?) In it I’m floating, gently on my back down a jungle river, almost like Baloo from Jungle book. It’s quite peaceful but I’m a little worried about snakes been around. I then wake up in bed again and feel a vibrating shudder as I do. I know I’ve just exited a dream or was just about to enter one and I’m in that half awake, half dreamy state. I remain still and try to let my mind float away as I relax back into sleep. The vibrations come quickly and I look past my closed eyelids hoping to latch onto any imagery as I normally would but nothing appears and instead the feeling subsides and I’m left awake in bed. I’m disappointed but I’m still on the verge of sleep and don’t give up. I remain still and try to let my mind drift away again and as I do I feel a floaty, weightlessness, similar to how I felt when I was floating on that river. I use this to my advantage and start to imagine myself floating and swaying side to side and the imagined motion begins to feel very realistic. The vibrations return in full force and this time I just hold still and let myself be taken along for the ride and don’t think too much about it. As I continue the swaying I start to feel as though I’m sinking into my mattress. I think this may indicate I’ve entered the dream but I’m unsure. I decide to roll out of bed and into the dream as I’ve successfully done before. I’m not sure if I’m quite ready to do so and worry I may actually roll out of bed in real life but I take the plunge and heave myself out of bed sideways. My feet find the floor and I come into a disorientated, upright stance at the side of the bed. I look to see if my body is still laying in bed like it was last time I did this but it’s empty and now I can’t decide if I’m in a dream or not!? “What are you doing?” asks my wife, confused that I’m outside the bed. It feels like this is really happening but something feels off and I’m sure I’m dreaming this. I see a digital clock at the side of the bed and do an RC. I look away and when I look back the time has disappeared completely. I go to do the check a second time to confirm but before I can I wake up in bed. The dream has ended but I remain still on my back and start to recall the experience when suddenly I’m stood at my front door? I quickly realise I’m back in the dream! The re-entry was so quick, within a matter of seconds and I didn’t even notice the transition. Now lucid I exit my house and have a short 2 minute lucid dream…
It was an interesting experience. I learnt that you have to have a few tools in your belt when doing WILD. My usual look behind my eye lids method failed me this time and it was an imagined movement that brought me into the dream. What was strange was my wife who was also laid in bed awake at the same time as me told me later that I was twitching and making whisper like noises with my mouth like a dog having a bad dream. I think she may have witnessed me entering the dream at the vibration stage. I always assumed I was perfectly still and silent whilst having a WILD but maybe not?
Okay. I know I'm an outlier on all this stuff (sometimes I think I'm from another world these days), but I'll try just one more time, then give up:
Virtually every post on this thread seems to be about classic WILD, and not DEILD: you're all discussing waking from the dream and then doing stuff to go back to sleep and dream. This is all well and good, and the advice given is excellent, but it is advice for achieving WILD's quickly after waking (without WBTB), and not advice for achieving DEILD's. This is fine, but I fear that by attaching all the techniques often necessary to do a WILD to something you are calling a DEILD causes the utter simplicity of a DEILD transition to be clouded in a very thick fog of doing stuff... and it may cause, at least on this thread, folks looking for advice on DEILD to overlook how DEILD actually works and possibly cause them to never be able to experience a DEILD.
Remember, again, that DEILD stands for Dream Exit Initiated Lucid Dream. It doesn't stand for Dream Remembered Initiated Lucid Dream, or Post-Dream Exit Initiated Lucid Dream. In a DEILD, the dream you are exiting is the catalyst for the transition, period. You don't remember it, or focus on it, you simply hold onto it, or stay in it: you need do nothing other than retain your presence in that dream (aka, hold onto it) during the few brief seconds it might take to go fully back to sleep. This retention is not recall -- you are not remembering you were just in a dream, you are continuing to be in that dream.
With DEILD, no techniques, of any kind, are necessary, period; all they serve to do is wake you up more, and remove you from the exit dream. No noise, like vibrations, etc, should happen at all, because you are already dreaming, and the WILD transition noise simply should not occur. There is no need to worry about your REM periods (or the stuff you've implanted in your mind about REM cycles) because you are still in REM because you are still dreaming. And, of course, alarms are not necessary, because in a DEILD transition you don't even have to wake up at all, much less be woken up fully. All you need to do is hang onto the dream and let your body go quickly back to sleep.
This is not semantics, BTW. The beauty of DEILD lies in its simplicity: you simply recognize, during the exit dream, that your body is beginning a wake-up process, and you then hold onto that exit dream while your body briefly awakens and then goes back to sleep. The whole process shouldn't take more than a few seconds. And by "hold on" or "retain", I mean that you basically stay in the dream, even if it fades a bit -- you're maintaining your presence in the plot and imagery, in the dream world, of the exit dream; you are not remembering it, visualizing it (or visualizing something else), or focusing, from a mental distance, on the stuff that happened in the exit dream; you are literally still in the exit dream throughout the DEILD process. It takes some practice to do this during a LD, and a lot more to do it during a NLD, but once you have it down DEILD is by far the simplest transition there is, because there is no need to do techniques, remember anything, visualize anything, or experience noise.
With this said, I will return to my outlier world with the knowledge that I at least tried.
Sageous, I completely understand what you said, but could you explain more on what you mean by holding onto the dream, retaining your presence in the dream? And just how is it done? For me, I don't recognise the moment the dream is fading, one moment I'm in the dream and the next moment I'm aware in bed. I don't move or open my eyes. So what exactly do I do here? Almost every thing that I think I'm supposed to do involves a mental activity. Just maybe, your explanation might help everyone achieve them in a much easier manner. I've read somewhere that, it's better to start DEILDing when you're in the end stage of the dream. Is this what you're saying too??Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Thanks a lot for posting.
I don't think you are an outlier on this at all Sageous. A DEILD is a DILD really.
For our visualization talk, we did talk about waking, WILD, and dream visualization so it might have made our understanding of DEILD ambiguous so I will clarify:
Between my last dream and fully waking, there is sometimes an ambiguous period where I think I am awake and start recalling my dreams. But, I'm really still dreaming... but it's just my thoughts. There are no visuals. A proof of this is in my example from Sunday, when I pulled an hair from my mouth's. The pain lasted past my dream to a period where I thought I was awake. In that moment, there was nothing except the delusion that I was awake and a curiosity as to how such a pain could follow me into my waking experience. No visuals, no eyes open, no body, except for my mouth and a pointed pain. My consciousness at this point is continuous with the consciousness that will wake up. There is no break. It's like the opposite of a WILD: a DIA (Dream-induced Awakening :P) This is why I am willing to call this DILD a DEILD. I'm still in a dream, but on the threshold. My mind is awake but my body is still not. My mind feels so "waking up"-awake I always assume I am already waking.
I guess many people are more used to the false-awakening scenario of waking up in their bedroom. But, I false-wake in my waking mind. And I recall my dreams. My more traditional false-awakening dreams are about me writing down dreams or telling people "How funny, I just dreamed of you."
So to clarify: when I talk about recalling dreams in the context of DEILD, I don't mean recalling dreams while awake. I mean recalling dreams while dreaming. Because my mind is waking up, exiting the dream, and that's what I naturally do then.
The imagining-visualization technique is no more than a dream-control technique. The anchor, a dream stabilization technique. These techniques are just labels on in-dream behaviors.
EDIT: Princessflare, don't try do DEILD. Just intend to DILD. If you recognize you are dreaming as you are dream-exiting, then lucid dream then. If you just wake up, without being aware of the dream exit, just forget it. DILD and WILD. You can't plan a DEILD past recognizing that moment as it happens. There's no point to focus on that. For myself, it is recurrent enough for myself to think I am already awake when I am still waking up so it makes sense for me to focus on recognizing that moment as an opportunity to lucid dream. Keep DILDing until you can recognize that moment.
But your case is a particularly rare one(I might be wrong, please don't come at me lol), you also have an in between state, and I guess most people don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occipitalred
And most DEILD tutorials talk about, attempting in the first few seconds of WAKING UP from the dream. So I'm just mad confused here now. I hope Sageous or Sivason or Tiktaalik or IndigoRose could clear this confusion.
Thanks!!!
No, it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occipitalred
A DEILD is a WILD transition, because it happens without loss of waking-life self-awareness. A DEILD literally cannot be a DILD, period. It is advice like that that serves to deeply confuse novices looking to learn about DEILD for perhaps the first time... which was my point. [EDIT: and I notice that point was confirmed by Princessflare's response]
Your experience seems unusual, Occipitalred, and your skills are advanced, but what you describe is an actual DEILD, albeit an unusual one, because your waking-life self-awareness is present throughout the transition -- post-hairpull, of course -- and, as you said, you were still dreaming throughout (even if there were no visuals). Yes, you lost track of Self for a moment, but you were aware and dreaming during the moments of approaching wakefulness and return to sleep. So, it was a DILD followed quickly by a DEILD... two separate transitions in a short period of time. As you said, remembering your dreams during a dream is still a dream.
Yes, DEILD's certainly will follow, or emerge from DILD's or WILDs, because it really helps/you need to be lucid when you sense an awakening, and DILD and WILD, being the only two types of LD transitions, will probably have occurred before the exit dream. And yes again, DILD's are generally what happens when you become aware during a false awakening -- but the DEILD comes after that, when you sense an awakening, and not during.
That said: This, however, was an outstanding piece of advice that I hope Princessflare considers:Quote:
Princessflare, don't try do DEILD. Just intend to DILD. If you recognize you are dreaming as you are dream-exiting, then lucid dream then. If you just wake up, without being aware of the dream exit, just forget it. DILD and WILD. You can't plan a DEILD past recognizing that moment as it happens. There's no point to focus on that. For myself, it is recurrent enough for myself to think I am already awake when I am still waking up so it makes sense for me to focus on recognizing that moment as an opportunity to lucid dream. Keep DILDing until you can recognize that moment.
Oh, and no need to defend yourself, BTW, I wasn't accusing you of anything.
...Still an Outlier, I suppose! ;)
But to DILD, I must fall asleep with mind and body(?) And also again, should I perform DIELD in the dream itself, or can I also do it the moment I'm aware I'm in bed???(haven't lost a single second) almost immediately starting the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
I agree with what sageous has said and I admit I have been talking about traditional WILD in some of my comments rather than DEILD due to similarities between the two. It is a form of WILD after all. I have experienced the exiting a dream, holding on and re-entering experience Sageous has described without any waking or techniques required. That said I believe there is a second understanding of DEILD that involves waking first that may be causing the confusion.
Here’s one DEILD guide below I used to go to for details:
https://www.thelucidguide.com/Techni...-Dream-(DEILD)
This guide suggests a brief moment of awakening is required and techniques such as visualisation can be used for reentry. The one outlined in the link above was paraphrasing a method created by an LD4ALL member who named it “DEILD”. I know LaBerge suggested a similar method in ETWOLD but he didn’t originally call it DEILD. Is it possible two descriptions of this technique exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Klace has posted it here tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Tiktaalik
https://www.dreamviews.com/attaining...cid-dream.html
I fear, Princessflare, that you may have been exposed to way too much information on this thread.
That's why I highlighted Occipitalred's note directed specifically to you. Because the exit dream in a DEILD generally occurs during a lucid dream, it makes a lot of sense to develop an ability to have that LD in the first place.... and the first step here is to learn to DILD (preferably by using the MILD technique) or to WILD (of course I recommend my DVA WILD class for this ;)). Then, when you are having LD's (through DILD or WILD transitions) you can extend them or chain them using DEILD transitions. And with a lot of experience being aware during your dreams, you might be able to have DEILD transitions when your exit dream is not lucid.
In other words, you generally need to be able to have LD's in the first place before you can consistently DEILD. At that point you will understand that the DEILD transition begins during the exit dream and ends during the exit dream, and that transition takes but a few seconds. If you are awake and aware in bed, it may be too late to DEILD and a classic WILD may be in order.
And yes, you do fall asleep in mind and body to DILD, but you start that process when you go to bed at night, and not when you are waking up in the morning.
I hope, Princessflare, that you might back up a little bit and revisit your exploration into LDing. Though DEILD is indeed the easiest transition to do, that ease really only comes after you've gained the ability to LD through DILD or WILD.
... And that piling up of misinformation continues with those links. Sadly, especially considering its age, Klace's tutorial is for a classic WILD that you happen to do when you wake up after a dream... It is a fine technique, but it is for WILD, and not DEILD. I also have watched Daniel Love's Lucid Guide video, and was very disappointed, given Mr. Love's apparent popularity; it was especially disappointing, because his video on classic WILD is quite good.
No, it isn't. This is because DEILD is not a technique, it is the name given to the type of transition it is (dream exit to brief awakening to sleep and dream without losing waking-life self-awareness). It really can only be one thing, regardless of the techniques used to induce it. And for what it's worth, I learned about DEILD directly from LaBerge 20 years ago, so my words generally reflect his opinion of it (back then, at least); as he did me, he will be the first to tell you the technique in ETWOLD was not for DEILD, because he hadn't yet thought of it when he wrote the book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiktaalik
It's a shame that such a simple transition has been nearly forgotten amid all the techniques invented over the years... perhaps it has been fully forgotten.
I see. I don’t think this kind of transition has been forgotten. As I mentioned I have experienced DEILD as you’ve described it and would still consider it a DEILD. This new “DEILD technique” has been created however and appears to be its own thing. The advice given looks to have been for this specific technique and was what Princessflare was referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
I agree that DILDs are a better starting point for beginners and think MILD is the best “technique” to look into. Or as I’ve mentioned before, attempt WILD but don’t worry about succeeding. A failed WILD can easily become a later DILD.
Sageous, we really are talking about semantics here. Just so everyone knows neither of us even disagree with each other on our methods for what is trying to be achieved in each case.
I am in fact describing a form of traditional WILD which takes advantage of the near sleep, deep hypnogogic state of awakening, combined with the timing advantage of knowing you are primed for dreaming (REM phase) as evidenced by the fact you were in fact dreaming 5 seconds ago. I am calling this DEILD
Sageous is describing how to recover from a failing lucid dream while you are still almost entirely asleep. The dream collapses but you can save it and start another vivid lucid using his method. In this case you have not actually woken up. I would call this stabilizing a failing dream, or some such and he is calling this DEILD.
I do not care what we call either. Both are useful things to know, but let's be clear me and Sageous have been discussing totally different things, not disagreeing on how one thing is done.
My thing is a great time to try WILD and his thing is a great way to extend your dreaming period and have many more lucids. I think we can both agree that in either case the first step is normally to learn DILD, preferably with a MILD element to it. You can not stabilize a failing dream if you are not familiar with being aware in dreams, and WILD is freaking hard enough, but probably even more so if you are not already a lucid dreamer. It is harmless to try to do a WILD with in the first minute of waking (what I have been calling DEILD) but novices should be focusing on DILD.
Tiktaalik, you asked if it is possible 2 descriptions of this tech exist. Not descriptions of a tech, we seem to be talking about two entirely separate aspects of the lucid dreaming art and assigning the same name to both. So it is clear I have been talking about WILDing upon awaking from a dream. This is the first I have heard of that not being what DEILD is, but I admit I have been using my methods for 35 years and simply adopted the names for various things from the common usage on this forum. Sageous got his info from Laberge which is a pretty sound reason to trust that the original use of the term relates to his stabilization/ recovery advice.
If anyone wants advice on WILDing in general you honestly should be reading his class material and trusting him on all things WILD. As the questions posed to me had to do with visualizing and not thinking I figured that was kind of my class. Turns out this DEILD thing is not really either of those.
Yes, I was starting to suspect this was the case. The confusion seems to be two different things named the same thing. Either way it’s all excellent advice and all pointing toward getting lucid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
This sounds familiar to me but at the same time somewhat different from my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occipitalred
I've never understood why people have problems with opening eyes or moving when waking up for DEILD (and its various versions, including external-induced). I simply don't wake up fully, I just get conscious. In my case, I do feel my real body, so it isn't remnant REM. I can decide to wake up fully, for example, to write keywords/tags for my dream, but this is like another step and takes some willpower. Sometimes, I make the decision to write the keywords, and 5 or 10 minutes later, I think I wrote them but then remember, that I actually didn't and force myself to fully wake up to write them. Same as you, my FAs are often thought-like (writing keywords, talking to my husband, thinking about my dream).
I think this is light conscious NREM because it happens to me randomly and relatively often, not just after a dream. Between two dreams or two REM periods in the morning, I find myself conscious in this way several times. This is how I can wake myself up for a natural WBTB or how I do my spontaneous WILDs. Unfortunately, when it comes to insomnia, this is what creates the illusion of not sleeping at all because every time I get conscious, my thought is "I am not sleeping" and it feels like a continuum, even though there were black-out periods (and then, as a bonus I get a dream about trying to sleep in some random location).
I also have problems telling apart dreams and thoughts. Sometimes, I think like "was I just dreaming that or was I only thinking about it?" and I try to recall sensual experiences to tell the difference. With morning dreams, it usually isn't a problem (although NREM dreams can be confusing), but with early night dreams, I am often very confused.
I am sure this gets mixed with some actual thought dreams or vague-visual dreams and also with some real awakenings and random hypnagogic or hypnopompic stuff, creating a confusing mess. I remember several occasions when I started to think about something in the middle of a dream, woke myself up (to write keywords or do WBTB), not paying any attention to the dream, and only after waking up realized that I was dreaming.
But yeah, I think we are complicating it too much for a simple DEILD thread.
The DEILD vs WILD thing, I think, it's a spectrum and it's impossible to tell what still counts as a DEILD and what is a quick WILD.
I see CANWILD and The Phase techniques and similar techniques as DEILD. Even if there is no dream to exit from.
But I would say it doesn't really matter. DEILD is WILD. The extreme end of all possible WILD experiences. The technique for DEILD and for WILD is basically the same. It's keeping self-awareness while falling (back) asleep. The same balancing act between losing it and staying awake/waking up fully.
Sivason:
I am in general agreement with your last post, except for one thing:
No, I'm not. At all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
DEILD, to me, is by no measure recovery from a failing lucid dream. Quite the opposite, in fact: Before a DEILD your dream is strong and doing just fine, but during that dream you start to sense your body awakening. From there you lucidly hold onto your dream while your body awakens briefly and then goes back to sleep. So yes, your body is actually waking up, however briefly, and then going back to sleep again, with the DEILD transition being your maintaining waking-life self-awareness throughout that process by staying connected to your exit dream. I'm not sure why I must say all this, again; do you really think I don't understand what a DEILD is?
I'm not sure where this whole "collapsing dream" thing came from, anyway, but it wasn't from me. And I never spoke, even once, about starting another "vivid" LD from a collapsed dream; I have no idea where you got that from, as I never discuss vividness (except to say it doesn't matter), and to me talk of things like collapsing dreams only complicates comprehension of a simple process even more. On top of all that, I never, ever, even once, said that A), My explanation of DEILD was a "method," and B), that you never actually wake up. I did say that, as you get good at managing DEILD transitions you will probably barely wake up, or won't even notice the awakening, but there is still an awakening -- or at least its process -- or else there is no DEILD. Waking up is part of the DEILD process; why would I leave it out? Also, I think I understand stabilization techniques, and can separate them from DEILD; if I were discussing a stabilization technique, I would have called it that, and not DEILD, which has pretty much nothing to do with stabilization techniques. So no, I am not "stabilizing a failing dream, or some such, and calling this a DEILD." Far from it. I'm a little amazed that that's what you thought I meant.
This is not semantics, Sivason, and not, in my mind, a difference of opinion. My point was simple, and, I had hoped, pretty clear: DEILD is a very simple WILD transition that begins with noticing, during your exit dream, that your body is waking up, and then holding on to that exit dream, and your lucidity, throughout the short process of waking and going back to sleep. I never intended to consider this a failing dream stabilization method, or a method at all. I was simply trying to point out that DEILD is by its nature a very simple thing and need not include any techniques or methods, and certainly not the complicated maze of techniques you guys seem intent on building. Clearly I have failed. And, unfortunately, my whole point was soundly defeated by your categorizing my definition of DEILD as just another method that is about ""stabilizing a failing dream, or some such," which only manages to complicate the issue even more. I have no problem with you telling me my definition of DEILD is wrong, but please don't translate my words into just another "method."
Sorry for the tone, I certainly mean no offense, but this conversation seems to have regressed to a point of absurdity, from my perspective. This was probably my fault for daring, in the name of helping someone new to the art, to cling to a very simple process (and definition) for DEILD when I should have remembered that complication, a near obsession with technique, and an apparent need for general confusion seems to be the rule of thumb around here. What is truly amazing is that I've been saying the same simple thing over and over, and still no one seems to get it... also my fault, no doubt, but still very frustrating.
Maybe I should change my name from Sageous to Outlier; it seems to make sense.
I won't come at you, no worries, ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
Fair enough. (But I think you called ME the outlier in this post, haha)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Hey, I'm enjoying this dialogue.
Yes, this! I'm surprised it's unusual.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
I think we do understand what you’re saying and agree with you. DEILD isn’t intended to be a technique just like WILD and DILD aren’t techniques either. They’re simply a way of describing a type of entry into a lucid dream. However, Separate to this, a DEILD “technique” has been created and if the source on the Lucid Guide website is correct has been circulating since 2007 and is what most of us are now referring to as a DEILD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Realising you’re exiting a dream, feeling yourself waking briefly and holding on to your awareness as you re-enter sleep is a DEILD. When this occurs it’s a nice simple re-entry and no techniques or anything complicated are required. But we’re not always so lucky to have such smooth re-entries. Sometimes we exit the dream and wake up enough that falling back into the dream is a little trickier. I think this is why the DEILD technique was created as some level of input and effort is required to get back into the dream. This requires more traditional WILD techniques to aid re-entry into the dream. Call this a “dream exit WILD” instead, I think that’s a better name for it anyway but despite been a form of WILD it’s slightly different because you’re already so close to sleep that it’s easier and quicker to achieve and dream chaining is still possible even if you wake up first.
So in summary (correct me if I’m wrong about any of this)
DEILD is the name given to a type of transition into a lucid dream in the same way as a WILD and DILD.
DEILD technique is the name given to a method used to re-enter a dream after just waking from one.
Regardless, PrincessFlare wanted to know how you re-entered a dream after waking up and I think we’ve all answered this in our own way. :-)
Maybe it was actually Stephen Laberge who made it complicated. Although ETWOLD doesn't mention DEILD at all, neither how to do it, nor the acronym (I checked).
So we have two types of dreams (dream-initiated, wake-initiated) but three types of transitions (dream-initiated, wake-initiated, dream-exit-initiated) with the DEI being a subset of WI. And then techniques as whatever-induced under either DILD or WILD. Does it sound easy?
Anyway, back to DEILD. WILD techniques are either anchoring techniques or REM/dream deepening techniques. When it comes to DEILD, we could say that it doesn't need any anchor, because it happens so quickly and that it doesn't need any deepening technique because REM/dream is still partially there.
Or we could say that the ending dream and its impression in our minds is the anchor. Now, is the difference between these two descriptions just semantics? Or is it that they represent two fundamentally different approaches to DEILD?
Tiktaalik is right that the simple no-anchor, no-deepening transition doesn't always happen (for example because our mind wakes up a bit too much too or because there is some outside distraction for a moment). So when we discuss these practicalities, are we still discussing DEILD transition, or are we on the WILD territory? And if it happens often to many people, are we wrong (complicating it for newbies) to discuss these practicalities in a DEILD thread?
(Personally, I think dream exit is an anchor. So I see these imperfect transitions still as DEILDs.)
I think what I am hearing is that you are still partially in a lucid dream and about to wake up. You prevent yourself from waking up by not focusing on your body and staying engaged with the dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
You have preserved the dream by not waking the rest of the way up. That in my book is preventing the dream from collapsing or failing. Good dream is about to end and you prevent that. In other words stabilization of a failing dream through some mind set or process. If that is the case (please explain if not) why consider this an induction process when you stay in the same dream?
I am not going to argue the word "Outlier" here. You certainly are the outlier in this case. If 99/100 people thing a abbreviated WILD after your dream is done (exited) is DEILD and you are the 1/100 it does not matter if you got your definition from some author/scientist. It is like me knowing that the name Mexico is said with a solid H sound in the middle. That is not how it is said in the USA so if I do not say it with a X sound I am the clear outlier.
In some sense you are complicating and confusing an otherwise straight forward discussion on how/why to WILD immediately after exiting a dream.
Plus, what I call stabilizing by preventing a full wake up in the midst of a lucid dream, while I am part way in both, would involve me giving a few paragraphs of details on my mindset and method.
If we were talking sports it sounds like you are saying "it is easy, stop falling down" while I would explain equilibrium, angular momentum and counter balance with the opposite limb. That is fine, maybe the answer was "stop fall down" but that may not be enough.
We all love you as a forum member we have not met; you are a precious asset here and highly respected, but we are not talking about the same thing you are. As the WILD teacher maybe you could help with what we are calling DEILD even if it is not what you call DEILD. I looked up every definition I could find and every version was somewhat like the post wake up WILD we have been talking about.
I do have a direct question relating to the thing you have been describing. Can you give more details about how you stay in the dream, if the dream is fading, gone, fully there, what have you? Do you have tips to make the process work?
Afterthought: last night was a wonderful night as far as my lucid dreaming. I was a let to spend somewhere around an hour lucid dreaming (or more). Here is the thing. I used the thing Sageous is describing to prevent the existing dream from ending and allowing myself to not fully wake about three times and also the thing I am talking about (completely loosing the dream and waking) also about three times, transitioning in 15-30 seconds. With both tools I had such a long amazing lucid sequence that some may doubt it is possible. Both tools are needed.
Hey everyone! as of today I've had 4 lucids. Thanks to Wbtb+MILD. I thank you all for helping me out!! About the lucids, 2 of them were pretty short, and the other two were decent almost 2 minutes long. So, uhm, I wake up prematurely and I was hoping you guys have some tips on how to stay in the dream longer. I was trying to learn about DEILD, so even if I did have a 4 second lucid, I'd be able to go back to it, but seems like that's a mess now. Anyway, I'd be happy if I had 10 minute lucids. Also I heard that if the thought of waking up comes to your brain, you'll wake up. I've Intrusive thoughts and this makes it harder. I don't know how to help it lol. And about DEILD, I will probably dig through all the material here and then I'll come back to all of you with the knowledge needed 😁.
Thanks a lot!!!
Sigh... et tu, Sivason?
I guess I would have lots of responses to your questions, but, you know, I have to ask myself, what's the point?
Aside from the fact that in responding to you I would say the same things you have no interest in hearing, and I haven't the time, interest, or patience, to bother with another round of that, I've finally run up against a greater wall: The internet has so fully decayed actual discourse (replacing it with things like the apparent popularity contest you describe, where "correct" is overrun by "everybody's saying it," "established sources" like some kid who probably wasn't even born yet when I was chaining DEILD's back in the '80's who happened to write up a demonstrably incorrect DEILD tutorial here "way back" in '06, Youtube guides like The Charlatan Daniel Love, and, last but not least, the completely unhelpful demand that everybody is right, even when they are wrong) that anything I say that doesn't jibe with what's become "given" on the internet will simply be ignored, dismissed or, worst of all Sivason, be considered some new and different technique. So, in the end, I got nothin'.
All apologies to folks like Princessflare who just want to learn this stuff, but are deluged with useless information and techniques by self-styled experts with big words and references.
With that, I'm out.
Best of Dreams, Folks,
Sageous
Sageous, I was actually interested in anything you could say here regarding my questions. They are valid questions about the thing you call DEILD and I am sure we are all curious to hear your thoughts. You seem actually upset about the name of things. I don’t get that. I just started using the name because it is the common use. Do you have any reference that supports your version? Not that that even matters. What does it matter even in the slightest what we call things? I know exactly what you are referring to and used it perhaps three times just last night. Who cares what I call it? I still honestly wanted to hear more on your experience with it and any tips that might be useful to me and beginners.
What do you mean useless information and techniques?!?! I used an abridged WILD after complete awakening/ loss of dream three times this morning!!! How is this useless information I am sharing if it continued my lucid adventure for around an hour?
Sidebar: I don’t try to get anyone to call WILD a Dream Trance even though that was what I called it from my yogic background. I honestly do not care what things are called. I just care that we both are preserving the art by passing it on to a new group of dreamers.
--------------------
Ok everyone, sorry for all that, but let's move on. Congratulations!!! You are getting lucid and on the path. Don't abandon trying to do DEILD when these wake ups happen. There is no mess here. Everyone has given you useful advice and DEILD is perhaps the most useful way to have more lucids. You definitely want to focus on DILD but keep trying to DEILD. I think waking up is just completely natural at first. I see two reasons for this. DILD tends to happen when you are not in deep sleep and the really short one's may be happening literally during a phase when you were waking up naturally. Second, I think getting lucid at first is shocking to your brain. It sort of short circuits because the novelty of suddenly being aware in a dream is overwhelming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
I have two bits of advice. Use a mantra for awhile during MILD that assures your brain this is good and normal. Perhaps something like this, "we will be aware in our dreams, this is good." Have a feeling as if you are telling your brain this, like it is a partner that may be afraid. Second tip is that the amount of stimulation in a lucid directly relates to how much training will be needed to stay in the dream. Basically the first few dreams do not try to look all about as this causes a huge demand in processing power while you force your brain to rapidly come up with scenery. Instead the first few dreams should be spent simply looking at your hands and trying to move your fingers while trying to say "I am dreaming" over and over. Good Luck and congrats again!
thank you so much Sivason, i will be sure to do what you've advised me to! uh yeah, i had one more qs, maybe you overlooked it, so, does thinking about waking up, actually wake you up? i mean i dont want wake up in the middle of a wonderful lucid, just because the thought of waking up crossed my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
thanks again
No, it doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
But I've read this at so many places. So I thought it was realQuote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
It's a myth. I think about waking up fairly often, never wake up from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
Another similar thing is thinking about scary things. It won't cause a nightmare, not on its own.
I think thats a negative expectation created because you heard it repeated so many times . In my personal experience , thinking about your body or waking up doesn't necessarily wake you up . I think this is a problem where people equate thoughts = Expectation . Like Thoughts are very surface level while expectations seems to be akin to a lingering feeling and then people think that the thought of waking up is going to wake them up even when in actuality , its the expectation that thinking about waking up is going to wake them up is what wakes them up . if you can let go of that expectation you can freely think about your body and waking life without actually waking up .Quote:
But I've read this at so many places. So I thought it was real
Though I do think that there is merit to the saying "Desperation is going to wake you up" . I read this somewhere that if you are desperate in trying to do stabilising techniques and desperately trying to rub your hands or spin in circle , it automatically implies you are already expecting the dream to end soon and that actually ends the dream because of that expectation . I agree with that because in my last LD I applied this and wasn't desperate and it was my best LD so far in terms of stability and vividity .
Oh this does make sense, so this is similar to the mirror thing. Thanks a lot, I'll try to stabilise in a laid back manner and convince myself that thinking about waking up won't wake me up.Quote:
Originally Posted by SealedOrion
Simply thinking about it will not wake you up, but do not put extra focus on it. If for instance you start to feel your body you should focus on something else, which is related to the stuff in the last set of posts. Giving attention to your real body when you feel it could wake you. It is better to have the thought and simply move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
Here is the difference, I often in a lucid wonder what time of the morning it is and if I am needing to wake up also how long until my alarm will force me into waking. This in no way wakes me up. In contrast if I think "I can feel my bladder is filling up" I must move my attention back to the dream and attempt not to think about the filling bladder or I will likely wake up as more and more of my body enters my awareness.
This is a strange thought to me. While I agree that you pretty much just "hang on" when you have a DEILD, you absolutely can experience vibrations and other hynopompic activity. I do almost every time I have a DEILD. In fact, it's the vibrations in between dreams that often wake me up enough to stay lucid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
I think that a little bit of practice, mostly in the form of having the correct mindset (don't move, interact very gently at first, let the dream coalesce around you, control emotional response) can still be useful in a DEILD. That doesn't mean you need to do anything (except hold very still and keep your eyes closed), but it can be helpful and ease the process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
Is it just me? These sound like the exact same thing. You are in the middle of a dream transition from one dream to the next. Your mind briefly wakes up while your body stays alseep. You go into the next dream lucidly.
Yes, techniques can help, PrincessFlare. #1 - Practice keeping your eyes closed and still whenever you wake up. You want to do the same when you wake up in between dreams.
Hey, so I can do that when I wake up from a lucid dream. But now what do I do next? Just wait for something to happen, to feel something, or think about the dream, or hold-on to the dream(and I've no idea how to do this pls help)?Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream
That's a good start, but you need to practice doing this after NON-lucid dreams, too. You want practice and make it a habit so that after every awakening the first thing you do is hold very still for ~10 seconds. After that, it doesn't matter. If you naturally wake up/partially awaken in the middle of the night or in the morning, and do this, you may have a better chance of catching a DEILD. It needs to be second nature, so that you don't really have to be 100% conscious to remember to do this. You may, for example, become semi-lucid during the transition, do this, and then gain more lucidity as you enter the new dream. It's very easy to open our eyes instinctively after a dream, when we could have gone on to another dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. It's not something you can force. These are very opportunistic lucid dreams. They are not as cultivatable as DILDs or WILDs. Yes, hold on if you sense the transition. Just lean into any sensations, keep still, and wait for your dream to appear.
hey guys!! so now i've another problem, my past 4 lucids have been only 2 to 3 second long. the moment i realise i'm dreaming i automatically wake up. its not like i'm really excited or anything. i just wake up the moment i get aware. i dont even have time to rub my hands together or say 'clarity' or even touch anything. how do i fix this? is it something that will get better itself??
thanks a lot:D
What about a DEILD then?
I struggle with stabilisation myself but I remember my first Lucid just crashing instantly and I woke up . After I had a few they slowly started to increase in time . It was like I was getting more familiar with how a dream feels and could sense that feeling for longer .
One thing I did was to imagine myself being in a dream and it not fading away instantly and giving me time to calm down and do stabilisation techniques . I did it in my WBTB time
Even a little jolt of excitement can be enough to end a dream if it's not stabilized yet. It's normal to have this when you first start out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
It will get better with time as you become more used to having moments of lucidity. They will be less new to you, and you will be able to stay in longer.
Well done! Keep up the good work!Quote:
Originally Posted by Princessflare
When it comes to stabilisation I just try to stay connected with the dream as best I can, by that I mean I engage all my senses and immerse myself back in the dream. Feel the walls, inspect the detail on a leaf or listen to the birds. Do this for long enough and things seem to become more stable.
When it comes to length though I think there is an element of luck and timing involved. Some dreams just appear more stable than others and sometimes your awareness is too low or too high to keep the dream going. I think a lot of the time you become lucid at the end of your cycle when you’re awareness is higher but leads to dreams ending much quicker and may be why they’re often shorter?
These days I don’t focus so much on stabilisation and just get on with the dream. We often hear “excitement” triggers a quick end to lucid dreams but similarly I think “panic” does as well. We may spend days, weeks, months hoping for a lucid dream and when it finally happens the first thought on our minds is “please don’t wake up”! Just thinking this won’t wake you up as others have said but I think it’s the panic that accompanies it that will. I remember when I first started I used to rush around and try to complete my dream goal as quick as possible before the dream ended or frantically do everything I could to stabilise the dream and when I did either of these the dream would often end quickly. Over time I’ve learnt to be calm when I become lucid and just get on with what I had planned and not worry about it ending. Most of my lucids are still quite short but I’m having longer dreams as well (my longest was approx. 20 minutes) Maybe Lucid dreams are always going to be short on average and we should just stay calm and do what we have planned and hope for a long one?
I had a lucid dream a few weeks ago and in it I was about to accomplish my dream goal when I started to panic. I was so close and thought “I bet this dream ends before I finish this!” and within a second the dream collapsed and I woke up in bed. I was really annoyed and wished I hadn’t thought about it. Suddenly I noticed “this isn’t my bed?”“Wait, I’m still dreaming!” The dream never ended from thinking about it but the negative expectation did create a simulated awakening due to my expectation it was going to happen.
15 minutes should be attainable by anyone who sticks at long enough and develops some stabilizing skill. To have ones much longer than that you will have to learn some advanced skills, but honestly 2 hours has not be overly rare for me. maybe a small handful a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiktaalik
That’s interesting. I’ve often wondered whether meditation/ mindfulness in the dream helps to stabilise it and keep it going longer as you’re able to stay more present in the moment and not let your mind wonder which results in wake ups, collapses, scene changes and loss of lucidity. Would you agree with this or do you have other stabilisation methods?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
Regarding the length, I expect the same length from my LDs as from my NLDs. My NLDs are usually 15-30 minutes long (sometimes shorter, sometimes slightly longer). So if I have a WILD, I expect the same length, if I have a DILD, it depends on when the moment of lucidity occurs.
If I wake up a lot at night, my dreams also get more fragmented and shorter, so doing multiple WBTBs can lead to shorter, less stable dreams (lucid or not).
So every time I read about people having hour-long dreams or even more, I just feel like I have bad genes for this or something like that.
Today, post-WBTB, I had two dreams. One was 28 minutes long (non-lucid, or lucid in the last second), according to Fitbit, but it felt shorter (I don't think I have a significant recall gap there). The other one was 6 minutes according to Fitbit, which feels accurate, and I woke up from it naturally (pre-lucid). I got back to sleep quickly, hoping for more, but there was no more dreaming.
I personally don't believe in stabilization (at least not for DILDs). Dreams end when they are supposed to end. The key to long lucids is to get lucid early in the dream. At least for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiktaalik
I do not think it is a matter of genes. I honestly think the limit on most lucid dreams is pretty close to 15 minutes without extra trick. Mindfulness is of course helpful in getting to that mark, but other things will need to come into play to stretch it out farther. There is first the thing Sageous was talking about, which I am ok with calling DEILD, but I also call getting right back into a dream after awaking to be DEILD. That thing is the developed ability to not allow the mind to go to awareness of the body. If you are still in a dream it is totally possible to stay in a dream and become aware of your body at the same time. You must learn to just stop feeling your body and to have all the awareness be inside the dream. That is why I did not understand calling it an induction method.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
Sometimes you will loose a dream do to lag time in your brain's processing power. This means that while your body may be asleep the dream goes on the fritz and the images collapse. It starts as a feeling you learn to recognize and over 3 or 4 seconds the "graphics card" gets shorted resulting in a loss of color and then 3 dimensionality and finally everything goes away. In this case you can prevent the collapse by voluntarily reducing the content of the dream to the barest minimum. This gives the processing time to catch up and stabilize. here is how that goes. I become aware of the feeling I mentioned (practice and experience, I can not describe it) and immediately find one small detail of the dream and focus on that and only that. It must be something that requires virtually no processing power and has almost no graphics that need rendered. A good example is stopping to tie your shoe. The fairy queen is flying about and the sun is setting and all the other stuff... feel that thing that signals full collapse is imminent... oh look my shoe is untied. Quickly bends over and looks at only the shoe. The scene goes black and white, don't think about it, tie your shoe, the scene goes 2D, just me tying my shoe. Here are the laces, slowly now, pull the string tight, slowly fold the string under, taking my time pull the crossed strings tight. Now in 3D, Slowly, very slowly examining the laces, "hold on Fairy Queen I am just tying my shoe" now in color, just a second more, now vivid. Look up expecting to see the same scene, there it is, sunset and Fairy Queen, and back to the dream, where were we.
Next is the dream collapses because you have used up all available REM time. Stay aware as in a deep WILD where the body fell 100% asleep, but no dream has formed. You are now shifting to nREM, but you use visualization to play out your dream in a simpler fashion. You can learn to dream just fine in nREM but it will need to rely on far less visuals. That is fine, shift the dream to being at night or in a corridor where the lights went out, perhaps you walked into an alley way. Ignore the fact that it is almost in 2D and has mostly just implied images in almost chalk line representation. Just make it fit and find a way to spend the next few minutes still engaged with your dream but within the limits of this sleep cycle. Maybe everything is dark because it is night and you are going to go flying through cloud bank? Almost no visuals are needed and nREM can recreate tactile things like feeling you are flying just fine.
You can learn to shift the sleep cycle back to REM but give it 5 minutes or so to give the brain an abbreviated full cycle for stability (plus it may not work sooner than that). How is this done. Practice and experience. It is not something I can explain.
Finally get astoundingly good at traditional DEILD so that if you completely shift from asleep to awake you can get right back into sleep and keep going.
I agree that getting lucid earlier in the dream gives you a longer window to play in and lucidity appears to be more common at the end of cycles. However, even if you successfully WILD at the start of a cycle it can be hard to maintain the dream. I do think the heightened awareness/ wakefulness you get during lucid dreams is what brings you closer to those snap wake ups. Beginners struggle for this reason but more experienced dreamers get better at walking that tightrope. I’ve never seen much evidence of spinning, yelling things and rubbing my hands together keeping a dream going but I think they’re just actions that contribute to staying connected and engaged with the dream which is what is needed to maintain it.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
Yes, I I know the feeling your talking about. In fact, I experienced it just last night in a very short lucid dream. I was only lucid for maybe 30 seconds when I noticed the feeling of disconnect and loss of detail. I quickly focused on a jacket that was hung next to me. I examined the detail on the fabric with sight and touch and it did stabilise the dream for a moment but then collapsed shortly after. I often utilise grabbing on to something physical within the dream when my vision goes and it usually helps me hold on to the dream. Do you believe theres a trick to prolonging lucid dreams whilst in them or is it just about saving them when they begin to fail?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivason
I used to think that WILDs are inherently more unstable, that morning dreams are more unstable or that not engaging with the dream makes it collapse. Then I have a WILD that lasted over 25 minutes, happened when I was oversleeping (snooze situation), in which I expected to end it early (it didn't) and in which I got lost in my thoughts (the dream stayed but I almost lost lucidity).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiktaalik
At this point, I believe that almost always when I feel the need to stabilize, it is just a schema issue.
I still have dreams that end very quickly, but there is never any warning that would give me the time to stabilize. I absolutely can't relate to Sivason's description of possible dream endings.
The truth is that I can't relate to most of his post but it is still valuable advice for me.
It’s tricky. You can’t really tell what is based on expectations. Spinning doesn’t work for me and I don’t expect it to. For Others it may work perfectly if they believe it will.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
I don’t believe the dream collapse sensations Sivason mentioned are to do with expectations/ schemas though. They often occur without me thinking about them and I believe I experienced them long before I knew they were a thing to expect. Most of my wake ups are quick as well with little or no time for stabilisation but this kind of fading dream is regular for me. Perhaps it’s a good thing you don’t experience it!
hey, how are you all doing?:D. so ive had about 11 lucids as of today, but guess what, 87% of them were 3 second long.
now, after having these many, i still just wake up upon realizing. i dont get shocked, i think im used to the feeling of lucidity too, but i just dont know why i wake up immediately after seeing 6 fingers on my hand. i dont even get to rub my palms together. i dont know whats happening. after waking up i try DEILD but nothing happens after like 15-20 seconds so i give up. is it because the quality of my lucid dreams is not high enough, that i wake up immediately? should i do something (in waking life) that might make my lucid dreams clearer, so i dont wake up? or should i not even perform a rc?(i'm thinking to rub my palms, the moment i think i'm dreaming and not being sure of it) will it work, even if i don't know for sure that i'm dreaming?
thanks a lot as always!!