Interested in a device to signal REM?

Hi all,

I'm looking to gauge interest and pricing for a product that signals REM.

I'm envisioning three levels of product. Let's call them "Basic" "Advanced" and "Pro"

How much interest is there here in these? What would you be willing to pay for such a device? What features are missing?

Feature set:

Basic: Signals REM sleep via vibration or flashing light. Self-calibrating and *very* high accuracy. Often detects lucid state and leaving lucidity, and can provide another signal to help regain lucidity.

Advanced: Signals REM sleep via vibration and/or flashing light. Self-calibrating with over 99% accuracy. Has a computer interface (wired) and can log up-to 7 nights of sleep on the device for later retrieval on the computer. This version can also wake you up when you're about to leave REM (after a few nights of self-calibration) - great for logging your dreams! It can also often detect lucidity and wake you as you start to leave lucid. Remember more of your dreams! This and the Pro unit include software for your PC.

Pro: Same as advanced, but with virtually unlimited logging on the device (via compact flash or, more likely, MMC card), small LCD on the unit for menu options and retrieval on the device itself. Wireless computer interface. Can also be used to control visualizations on the computer. Excellent as a biofeedback training tool during waking hours.


These are prototyped and working now. Software is in alpha state.


What other features would you like to have on the product(s)?

Thanks in advance for your input!

I think the dream alarm with a self recorded voice would be nice. So when you get a trigger "your" voice (not a beep) can tell you that you are dreaming.

I think the software or interface should let you see how many times you received triggers from the mask/device.

I would think most people would consider paying around $200 for basic and higher for the more advanced models!

Good luck on this produkt!
:peek:

Thank you!

I will add voice alerting - great idea! I'm not positive yet if I'll shoe-horn it in at the Basic or Adv+ levels. I think it depends on what people are thinking price-wise.

At the $200 pricepoint for Basic, I'd add it there.

Again - thank you for your quick response!

Further questions to add (for everyone): Would you buy this, if the pricepoint where set where you're talking? And if so, when would you buy it? If there were an order page available today, would you buy it now? If not - why not?

Since you have been so helpful, so as in answering the above questions, I'll see what I can do.

I'm thinking maybe mark it up 300% and give you a 50% discount.

If I knew the product worked I would try it. Not at $200 though. Not that the cost isn't justified, I'm just broke. :P

I'd definally try it. (after proven it works of course)

So what "proof" are you looking for? No other REM device has ever proven anything... nothing at all. So I really don't have that as a model.

I've offered the graphs and the raw data more than once.


The $200 was mentioned by someone else. What is *your* pricepoint? That is certainly in no way indicative of what the cost might be. I'm gauging the market. If the market is willing to pay something that makes producing the device worthwhile - then it goes forward. If the market isn't - then it remains a neat idea that sits on the shelf until either A) the market will pay for it or B) the cost of producing the unit can be brought down.

Seriously, guys, I'm looking for input on price and feature-set. Be realistic. Also, the "proof" thing. What are you looking for there?

[size=14]I think the biggest factor for most users is will it work? I think $200 is very fair if the users had some indications of testing and some promising results.

Here's a possible suggestion. Take 1 or 2 people who would at least try the product for a month and post results. Of course they would need to be on the honor system and return the merchandise (or purchase) after the trial period. If they report that the product does at least deliver the cues and they have a way of verifying it, the product does what it's supposed to. It's up to the person to train themselves and see if they can get lucid from the cues.

I'd be willing to offer an unconditional 30 day money-back to, say, the first dozen purchasers. Which is more than any of the other REM devices I've reviewed have ever offered.

My own ideas on pricing would put the Basic unit at a retail cost of something substantially less than $200. I would initially be thinking of the Advanced unit in that neighborhood, with the Pro being more.

I'd buy one!

Thanks, Dangeruss.

Which - and at what pricepoint?

Hi Kim

Basic with adjustable vibration force sounds good. About price hmm... to me $200 sounds like final limit. With price $100 i ordered it today if i could .

I would think a down payment of $100 would be great for a few interested (myself). Then after trial pay the remaining balance for basic module.

I suppose the basic will not include any method on reporting how many cues we received that night?

:yumdumdoodledum:
phoen++

I hate to be another saying this, but...

If I knew it worked, I'd pay $100 +/- $20
(Low because I really am almost broke)

The hard part is proof, as consumners, we respond well to unsolicited user reviews. Meaning, personally I would not be an early adopter, only buying once it is 'proven' tech.

Hi Kim this is really neat to see. I worked for a start up company and really miss the excitement of marketing a product.

I would purchase a basic unit if it was under $100.

Thanks!

Yup - I'm a serial entrepreneur...


I'm now seeing the price-point on the basic unit coming down into the ~$100 range.

Is that strictly a "what's expendable right now" thing, or a "if I had a thousand expendable dollars, I wouldn't spend more than $100" thing?

Again - thanks for your input!

Pricing is a very very complicated thing. If you price solely on your margins, it rarely works. Also, feature-set is driven by what the consumer will spend.

I have a very nifty 4 channel (expandable to 6 channel) ECG also prototyped. I'm beginning to think the market just couldn't absorb it. And that things such as the NovaDreamer™ must have sold exactly one unit - to his mom... ;)

LoL, we just covered Pricing in 1 of my business classes.
3 well known pricing strategies are based on:
1. Cost to make it plus a mark-up
2. Charge what you think the market will pay
3. Look at what the competitor is doing, and charge based on your position relative to the competitor

Number 2 seems the best in this situation. Personally, I wouldn't pay very much until there was a buz about it on Dreamviews (or elsewhere) so that I knew that it worked. So I would recommend charging only a small amount until people started talking about it....then charge more once it gets popular.

Quote:

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Originally posted by kai2424
LoL, we just covered Pricing in 1 of my business classes.
3 well known pricing strategies are based on:
1. Cost to make it plus a mark-up
2. Charge what you think the market will pay
3. Look at what the competitor is doing, and charge based on your position relative to the competitor

Number 2 seems the best in this situation. Personally, I wouldn't pay very much until there was a buz about it on Dreamviews (or elsewhere) so that I knew that it worked. So I would recommend charging only a small amount until people started talking about it....then charge more once it gets popular.

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Agreed. I think the initial test team (if successful) will help you sell the product at a price where you could make a profit. Word of mouth is great marketing for other user's interested in the product. You can read thousands of message boards where all the lucid folks are talking about Nova Dreamer, Dream Maker & Rem-Dreamer whether they work or not. People want to know before they drop that kind of change. Personally, I took a risk (posted results at LD4all) on Dream Maker from wellnesstools. That thing was the biggest piece of crap. I sold it on Ebay so, oh well. It used facial twitching not eye movement for Rem detecting. I was actually have a lucid on my own and the stupid thing did nothing; just terrrible...geez :(

Quote:

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Originally posted by kai2424
LoL, we just covered Pricing in 1 of my business classes.
3 well known pricing strategies are based on:
1. Cost to make it plus a mark-up
2. Charge what you think the market will pay
3. Look at what the competitor is doing, and charge based on your position relative to the competitor

Number 2 seems the best in this situation. Personally, I wouldn't pay very much until there was a buz about it on Dreamviews (or elsewhere) so that I knew that it worked. So I would recommend charging only a small amount until people started talking about it....then charge more once it gets popular.

---

#2 is, indeed, the best method. Which is what I'm doing here. Figuring out what the market will pay. Although, DV is a very small segment of the market. If DV users are slow to adopt, we may decide to offer it elsewhere first, and then bring it back here at some later time. You can't raise the price once it's out in the marketplace. So it won't be offered at some low price, and then raised... It will be offered to the group most interested.

howabout 4 easy payments of 19.95??? :D

That is one option. If I have a few thousand orders, I could get a venture bank to consider backing that...

When you say that they are protoyped and working now, what do you mean?
Do you have any user testimonials or have you used the device on yourself?
Has an independant, unbiased group tested said product?
I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, I just know plenty of people that have been had.
Almost any product can be sold if it is effectively marketed, whether it really works or not.

for 100$ i would buy a machine that signals and detects REM efficiently, given that it would be smaller than a home-built one...

if you add the logging options (wired, i guess via plugin cable) for one-two nights (one night is enough, you'd be able to save it in the morning and whipe the memory clean for the next night, if that would reduce cost) i would pay 200$... once you allow for the logging (and if the software could produce graphs, collect and analyze data), you're entering the real research realm, in which case the mask could be used by more than just people who want rem detected (say, people with sleeping disorders looking for patterns, or people simply interested in sleep stages, etc)

for the pro version, most of the development could be actually at software level... better logging/graph functions, deeper, more refined analysys over long periods, medians, stuff like that)... i don't know how much i'd pay for the pro one though, mainly because i'm a poor student, and even 100$ would require saving for a month or so... you could always include light-machine features and so on for the pro version.

i'd want one using light signaling, since it seems to be the proven, most efficient method so far. but i have to say... a machine that would signal REM reliably and log one night's worth of sleep for 100$ would sell like mad. you have to wonder if you're aiming for

1: the few with more money and long-term interest in dream research

2: the many with less money and shorter-term interest (which may provide some impulse buys for the price)

you can always do what everyone does with every new product... start by selling it at a higher price and slowly bring it down, cover everyone hehehe.

as for concerns:

- support: are the parts easily available, can they be replaced by someone with a knowledge of electronics (in case you stop supporting them), etc.
- reliability (as has been mentioned)... but this comes with time and trial, and you'd only know how it really performs once enough people have it
- upgrades, or the ability (and possibility) of third-parties doing upgrades to the software (ie: adding options for stuff like plug-ins or modular software)

in the 100$ range though... :shock: it would be insane :mrgreen:

..I would be interested in a device im thinking about ordering the remdream . I think around 200.00 for all what you say it does is fare . How long are you talking ? 1 month 12 months whets your time frame ?

Hi first post probably not going to be to many more. I have a nova dreamer lucid dreaming induction device, I am sure some of you have heard of them
This is the website that sells em http://americanbilling.com/luciddream_conn...ovadreamer.html
as you can see now for $699US which is ridiculous cause I paid $275 US 2 years ago.
I have mine listed on ebay here
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...AMESE%3AIT&rd=1
if anyone is interested feel free to pm me about it. I never had much success with the device but have heard people had great gains with it, sorry if this seems like a blatant plug but I just need to get rid of it as I''m not working at present and need the cash plus dont use it and its being wasted sitting in its box.
Cheers Matthew

i'd purchase a basic at 100 and a advanced at 200...a
it i could try one out today i would get one...

I'm not convinced it's possible to detect the lucid state without input from the dreamer, so that may be difficult to implement, and will probably rarely work if it is. Unless you've thought of a way to detect lucidity that I haven't.

Vibration doesn't seem like a great idea to me either. It's nice to have it as an additional feature, but I suspect that it would be more likely to wake the dreamer up, rather than providing a reliable cue for lucidity. The lights are a good idea, and I recommend that sound, either a simple beeping or possibly an actual voice saying something simple like "You are dreaming" would be more useful than vibration.

It's a great idea though, we definitely need more products like this available.

$200 for whichever model i could get for $200.

I think that the product would be worth the 200 dollars, but I would probably buy it right away if it were in the 100-150 dollar range. Seeing how that the comparable products on the market now are almost 2 times that, you could probably corner the market at the 100-150 dollar price if people were getting decent results :)

Allen

not to kill the conversation but i personally think dreams should be left to your ability and your ability alone. dreams are one of the only things these days that we can keep personal and were the only ones to control them. to me I would just practice the techniques involved in lucid dreaming to get to the point where you can practice it every night. to me Its kinda like cheating. but thats just my opinion , maybe everybody disagree's .
P.S. (200 seems right if i Was going to buy one)

I like the sound of this device and if the basic model fell into a price category of say $100 I would consider buying, providing shipping to the UK would not present a problem. Payment by Paypal would also be very handy for international payments.

I will watch with interest....

PS - Couldn't afford $200 as too difficult to make ends meet as it is - sorry. :roll:

How far along are you with your device ?Could you give us a time frame . I'm sorry for being impatient i don't want to spend money on a rem dreamer and you come out with this new product that works .

Quote:

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Originally posted by chong
How far along are you with your device ?Could you give us a time frame . I'm sorry for being impatient i don't want to spend money on a rem dreamer and you come out with this new product that works .

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what he said....

I followed the interesting discussion on devices to induce LD's and found this link .Has anyone tried the home made version described here ?

I think it looks worth a try and worth the price of a cheap alarm clock .
I am going to make one and try it but will be interested if anyone has already used anything like this.

http://home.no/lucid/lucid/TEF.htm

Kim made a feasibility-testing prototype, where she recorded the output from GSR.
Very impressive results, we could even see where the person lucid dreamed.

However kimpossible was temporarily banned for an offence, and seems to have decided not to return.
This sucks of course.
The original idea for the 'dreamcatcher' was actually mine and both MeusOpus and kimpossible were helping make it a reality.
My electronics knowledge is quite dismal unfortunately
I did fiddle with it, and only ended up with a fairly inflexible basic lie detector that sort of worked.
I need to consider taking this seriously and employing someone part time to design it properly.

Oh what a shame :( I really hope you succeed in finding suitable people to help enthusiastically bring your idea to reality. I am sure the struggle will be worthwhile and I will be interested to hear how tings are devloping :)

BB
Pokle :)

Thanks, I appreciate that :)
I have quite a lot on my plate, of my own doing. Hopefully I can get the time to get on this again.

Once it came out for like a like and if it got good reviews it would deff inatly be worth my 200 or w/e $$. The nova dreamer is like 600$ and all that dose is flash light into your eyes. And/Or beep when it senses your eyes moving (REM)

Some doubts

1. What is the problem if I reverse engineer the Novadreamer and make a one for my personal use. And can I make the hardware opensource, so that the electronic geeks can do some improvements.

2. What if I make a device exactly similar to the concept of Novadreamer ? Without reverse engineering and without touching it. Is it possible to use such a device for my personal use and can I make the hardware opensource ?

3. Is there a device that detects your REM without touching your body ? Purely by recording your brain waves with the help of a low frequency antenna. Electroencephalography measures the electrical activity of the brain by recording from electrodes placed on the scalp or, in special cases, on the cortex.

I know this is not a great idea since the amplitude is below 100microvolt within the scalp itself. And the antenna size should be almost 4600 miles long for a 10 Hz wave. You will have to sleep in the Great Wall of China so that the antenna can be mounted. But I know how to tackle it(Intellectual property 8) ).

And this 600$ is very very high for Novadreamer if it works just as said in its webpages. Outsource it to china to get it below 1$ (Sorry. may be overconfidence)

I have some questions:

HOW exactly does this device detect REM/that you're dreaming?

How does it look? Will I look like some astronaut with that thing on? Is it like a mask? How comfortable?

How much is the shipping cost to... for example Finland?

Is it durable? (If i happen to roll over it or something while dreaming)

Pricing:

note: I really have no experience in pricing a product but here's my suggestion :D Also I don't know exactly how high-tech this is so... Don't get mad.

If the price of the basic would be 50 bucks, I'd instantly buy it. That is, if it works. Anywhere around 100 dollars and I'd have to think about it... If enough people say it works well enough, I'd probably pay the 100-200 bucks after I get my hands on some money.

The advanced and pro models shouldn't be much more expensive, because there really aren't many more vital features compared to the basic one... I mean, if you get 99% lucid dreams with the basic model, why pay more? And that's what rational customers think. I'd say that the advanced model should cost 20-40 bucks more than the basic. And the pro could cost like 100$ more than basic (the display probably makes it quite expensive?)

The pricing is more a question of how low are you willing to go? If (IF) the mass production costs like 20$ per device, then there really is no need to put the price much higher than 50$, unless you are willing to become very rich with this... The sad thing is that people are very willing to pay MUCH for a working lucid dream induction device... People want to lucid dream so badly that they don't necessary realize how much 200$ is. But as a lucid dreamer yourself I hope that you think of us as friends and not as customers you want to rob :D

Well unfortunately the original poster is no longer on this site. So her original enquiries/probing don't really mean much.
At the moment this device is on hold until such time as I can find someone to redesign it.

As for some technical questions:
It will use electrodermal response to determine REM. This is similar to a lie detector, in that it finely monitors the conductivity of your skin.
It has been tested, and it worked so well that we could even see a lucid dream on the chart.

When complete, it would most likely consist of a glove with some electronics on it. Or alternatively it may have wires running from the glove.
I'd prefer to avoid the wires and have the device self-contained.
It should be able to log the information as well as trigger your awareness with either a mild vibration device or a connected mask with lights.
I don't like the mask idea, personally, and would prefer the vibration on my wrist.
Less wires again, too.

Oh and the device is called the 'DreamCatcher glove'.
I'll let everyone know when I have the go-ahead to continue developing it. But I wouldn't advise holding your breath over it. My life is in an ongoing hiatus.

So it works on the same principle as this? http://www.sleeptracker.com/

Just found this device that wakes you up whenever it is the easiest for you. It's really a shame that they didn't implement a function to induce lucidity because it obviously detects the REM phase...

No, because that device relies on your body movements during sleep. Doesn't sound that convincing to me.
Especially since I don't sleep all night, but in 20-30 minute naps.
And I don't move.

In any event, I've sent them an email enquiring about it.

you say you sleep in 20-30 minute intervals, i read that in a book somewhere dose that accuily work? What is it every 3-4hours you sleep for 20minutes or something? Also dosnt it take like 5hours to get into REM how do you Ld on that schedual?

Actually you reach REM after 80 minutes generally.
By sleeping like this though, you end up compressing your sleep and possibly end up with REM rebounds.
The first couple of days is hell. It gets better after that.

So in your 20 minute naps you dont get dreams? how do you become lucid....you can probably WILD whenever you want??

oh yeah (sorry for askin so many questions) But what is a REM rebound?

An REM rebound is when you get REM at times when you normally wouldn't. Eg. within 20 minutes.
In other words, I do dream.
But I don't remember that much of it, except when I WILD. Yes, I can WILD easily like this. But I don't really like WILD's - I prefer DILDs. WILD's have me feeling like I'm going to wake up any second.

Anyway, I'm taking a month's break from pure polyphasic sleep. Previously I've had a month of successfully following it, but recently I eg. do 3 or 4 days and then crash. That's not healthy.
But the break isn't going to be monophasic (eg. 8 hour a night) sleep. I couldn't bring myself to waste that much time again.
I'll do 4 hours at night and 2 or 3 naps in the day.
If that doesn't work, I'll do 4 hours and then 1 hour siesta.
If that doesn't work, I'll do 5 hours and 1 hour siesta. And so on.

BTW, this should ideally be in it's own topic... I'll split it soon, when I get a chance

yeah heh