HIT Questions

1. Instability seems to characterize hypnagogic states. How do y'all manage to remain in the vision? Or does it come with practice, just like not waking up as soon as you go lucid? Or does this reflect an innate difficulty with going lucid with this technique.

2. In my single experience with hypnagogic lucidity, I found no obvious difference between that state and a lucid dreaming state. However, the physiology of the two states should have substantial differences. Has anyone noticed consistent differences in the two experiences? Do these differences create any differences in limitations or capabilities in the two states? Perhaps differences in level of control?

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Originally posted by sasha
1. Instability seems to characterize hypnagogic states. *How do y'all manage to remain in the vision? *Or does it come with practice, just like not waking up as soon as you go lucid? *Or does this reflect an innate difficulty with going lucid with this technique.

2. In my single experience with hypnagogic lucidity, I found no obvious difference between that state and a lucid dreaming state. *However, the physiology of the two states should have substantial differences. *Has anyone noticed consistent differences in the two experiences? *Do these differences create any differences in limitations or capabilities in the two states? *Perhaps differences in level of control?

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Do you actually know what you're even talking about?

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Originally posted by sh2dak

Do you actually know what you're even talking about?

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Perhaps not. So why don't you point out my misunderstandings.

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Originally posted by sasha
1. Instability seems to characterize hypnagogic states. *How do y'all manage to remain in the vision? *Or does it come with practice, just like not waking up as soon as you go lucid? *Or does this reflect an innate difficulty with going lucid with this technique.

2. In my single experience with hypnagogic lucidity, I found no obvious difference between that state and a lucid dreaming state. *However, the physiology of the two states should have substantial differences. *Has anyone noticed consistent differences in the two experiences? *Do these differences create any differences in limitations or capabilities in the two states? *Perhaps differences in level of control?

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It seems to me that sasha knows exactly what he's talking about.

In regard to the first question: I personally have not yet been able to keep awareness during hypnagogia to a degree that neither awakens me from it nor allows me to lose it.

Regarding the second question, however, as I have noted on several occasions and remain by my opinion: it is not correct to strictly diffirentiate the states of hypnagogia and dreaming. They are both states of independant thought evolving due to certain logic given that lucidity isn't present of course. The physiology seems to be different indeed in between these two states, however, just as pointed out before, I would think that the "capabilities" in both states are equal but the first (hypnagogia) being simply less "stable" than the second and allowing for less...perhaps..."freedom" is the word.

I'm curious though as to why you ask what you do in the second question.
Have you attained lucidity in both states?

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Originally posted by Merlock
I'm curious though as to why you ask what you do in the second question.
Have you attained lucidity in both states?

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Yes. I have had two regular lucid dreams prior to joining this board and I had a lucid hypnagogic "dream" last night. I can't see any difference between the two.

Well then perhaps you can answer your own question at least to some degree.

When analysing the states of lucidity in both REM and hypnagogia, did you feel in any way that, say, the hypnagogic lucid dream was tougher to..."keep" or perhaps control?
Any other observations from both states and even logical deductions that you might have may prove useful to bring more thought on the matter.

After all, since you differentiate the two lucid "dreams" and see one as hypnagogia whilst the other one as a dream during REM then there must have been some differences in the state? Or were they only physyological?

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Originally posted by Merlock
When analysing the states of lucidity in both REM and hypnagogia, did you feel in any way that, say, the hypnagogic lucid dream was tougher to..."keep" or perhaps control?

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I have only three dreams to compare, so I don't want to generalize. I don't recall much of the one LD, but the one I do remember and the HIT from last night both lasted between 30 and 60 seconds of dream time. I awoke unwillingly from both. I had some control in both. Last nigh, I could make myself do several slow motion flips. During the LD, I made a few characters disappear or turn into someone else. So, pretty similar.

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Originally posted by Merlock

Any other observations from both states and even logical deductions that you might have may prove useful to bring more thought on the matter.

After all, since you differentiate the two lucid "dreams" and see one as hypnagogia whilst the other one as a dream during REM then there must have been some differences in the state? Or were they only physyological?

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I really didn't notice any difference, which I find very interesting. I only knew that they occurred during different states or by different means. However, I don't want to assume that most people experience it this way or even that I'd experience it this way in the future.

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*1. Instability seems to characterize hypnagogic states. How do y'all manage to remain in the vision? Or does it come with practice, just like not waking up as soon as you go lucid? Or does this reflect an innate difficulty with going lucid with this technique. [/b]

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from my personal experience *between 5-8 HI induced lucids*, i would say you've hit the nail on its head. hypnagogic states are more unstable.

to use one of my half-assed analogies :wink: , i view the hypnagogic state as the wobbly start on a bicycle, and a full-blown lucid with full submersion as the point where one is in a state where momentum is sufficient to keep one moving..more stable.


practice is certainly key, and i make no distinction between the type of mindset needed to stay lucid without waking, and that needed to "progress through the wobblies".

no inate difficulty IMO.

i recommend (and it sounds like you are doing this already) that you do not make a clearcut distinction between the hypnagogic state and lucid dreaming...expectation is huge in dreamwork, and if you assume (even subconsciously) that hypnagogic states are extremely fragile and will almost certainly end with waking up...well, you can see where i'm going...

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Has anyone noticed consistent differences in the two experiences? Do these differences create any differences in limitations or capabilities in the two states? Perhaps differences in level of control?[/b]

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capabilities and level of control seems to imply a sense of embodiment...i find that in the hypnagogic state i see without any sense of body. actually, that is the only distinction i make between the hypnagogic and dreaming states.

if i had your experience i would classify it as a full-blown lucid, and would not limit its duration or possibilites due to your physiological state during it...i also would have tried the hand stabilization technique/vocalization technique...it has worked wonders for me.

most of my first 20 or so lucids were shortlived, and could have been more vivid (these included HIT lucids, dreambody WILDs where i had no hypnagogic imagery or sound, and DILDs).

in all types since then i have found looking at and/or rubbing the hands works wonders. as well as vocalizing.

for instance, if you had looked at your hands and vocalized something like "i am lucid dreaming....my physical body is in bed, and i am fully here" (even knowing that you had just flicked the light, and had not slept yet) i am positive you would have had a longer, perhaps deeper experience..

just some thoughts...