Mind Wandering- Maybe The Reason Why Not All Dreams Are Lucid

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08-21-2006, 06:23 PM
ilovefrootloopz

While I was at camp about 2 months ago, I told my cabin about lucid dreaming. One of my friends was a lucid natural, he knew he was dreaming 8/10 dreams and could change the outcome of the dream. Later, I asked him half jokingly how he was nearly always lucid, since during camp I was having troubles getting lucid (not really so much now). He actually answered my question.

Him: Can you control your day dreams?
Me: Uhh what do you mean?
Him: You know how when you think of one thing, it links to another thing.
Me: Yeah.
Him: So then you can't control your day dreams. The key to lucidity is telling your mind while day dreaming that you are in charge, and you will think of the things you want to.

I kinda of thought about it for a while, but then I dismissed it as my lucidity got better. But now, I think I've found the reason for my high lucid count. My mind needs to wander to fall asleep, basically like unconcious day dreaming. (No VILD's, MILD's, FILD's, etc for me). However, this never happened to me before, but I'm constantly realizing I'm day dreaming, almost about 10 times during the average 30 minutes it takes me to fall asleep. Before I started lucid dreaming, this would only happen around 1 time.

So people always wonder why your dreams, in which incredible odd occurences happen, to your dream self they feel real. Maybe..... it could be because you just never stop to think about what's going on around you. Pretty much like when you're day dreaming, you never stop to think about what you are thinking about. (And when you do, you usually forget what you were thinking about).

I'm not really sure if I'm right, or if someone as already figured this out, but it sounds right I think. And even if this is true, it's pretty hard to use, considering how can you stop your mind from wander 15 hours a day (it probably won't wander if you're doing like a test or something). But maybe if you managed to get your mind to stop wandering every so often..... I think lucidity would come easier.

Post here with comments/agreements/disagreements/flames.
08-21-2006, 09:48 PM
SKA

Quote:

Originally Posted by megabenman

While I was at camp about 2 months ago, I told my cabin about lucid dreaming. One of my friends was a lucid natural, he knew he was dreaming 8/10 dreams and could change the outcome of the dream. Later, I asked him half jokingly how he was nearly always lucid, since during camp I was having troubles getting lucid (not really so much now). He actually answered my question.

Him: Can you control your day dreams?
Me: Uhh what do you mean?
Him: You know how when you think of one thing, it links to another thing.
Me: Yeah.
Him: So then you can't control your day dreams. The key to lucidity is telling your mind while day dreaming that you are in charge, and you will think of the things you want to.

I kinda of thought about it for a while, but then I dismissed it as my lucidity got better. But now, I think I've found the reason for my high lucid count. My mind needs to wander to fall asleep, basically like unconcious day dreaming. (No VILD's, MILD's, FILD's, etc for me). However, this never happened to me before, but I'm constantly realizing I'm day dreaming, almost about 10 times during the average 30 minutes it takes me to fall asleep. Before I started lucid dreaming, this would only happen around 1 time.

So people always wonder why your dreams, in which incredible odd occurences happen, to your dream self they feel real. Maybe..... it could be because you just never stop to think about what's going on around you. Pretty much like when you're day dreaming, you never stop to think about what you are thinking about. (And when you do, you usually forget what you were thinking about).

I'm not really sure if I'm right, or if someone as already figured this out, but it sounds right I think. And even if this is true, it's pretty hard to use, considering how can you stop your mind from wander 15 hours a day (it probably won't wander if you're doing like a test or something). But maybe if you managed to get your mind to stop wandering every so often..... I think lucidity would come easier.

Post here with comments/agreements/disagreements/flames.
[/b]

Yeah what you are saying is true: We so often find ourselves THINKING about something and then ''Comming back down on earth'' and having NO clue of what was just on our Minds.
It's very normal for the Mind to wander, however it is desirable for Lucid Dreaming if you could maintain your attention focussed on 1 thought.

Do you Meditate? Because the BASICS of EVERY form of Meditation is the same as what you described: to become overall more AWARE of your own Mind's thoughtprocess and to excersize some control oover it: When you can make your mind blank..or as calm as possible it is MOST open to Suggestions. And from there you can ''DIRECT'' your Mind in which way to wonder.

Sure it takes time to develop a good focussed attention and expand your overall awareness.

But it happens to me all the time in everyday trance: I sit here, in front of my PC, see something, link it to a thought and get drawn VERY DEEPLY into that thought:

So deep that usually I loose my eyesight, Sound Sensibility: it's like I'm IN that thought and I SEE and HEAR what I think instead of what my physical eyes and hears see and hear. I guess if you were able to become well aware of what is going on in your Mind while it wanders that'd be very helpfull in LDing: it is a meditative, blank, state of Mind. A very open Mind.

Perhaps if you could Find I.E. a Symbol that LINKS your thoughts to some other subject, then you could deliberately Incubate certain thoughts in your Mind to take with you into your Dreams... This needs some thorough experimentation :wink:
08-21-2006, 10:16 PM
ilovefrootloopz

I don't meditate... I don't really know how to... When I clear my mind of all thoughts it doesn't help me at all, I just feel like I'm stuggling to control my own body.

I haven't figured out a good way to induce symbols like that because it would bring my mind into conciousness. I've thought about using some recording on my iPod, but like you said, you don't even hear the sounds around you while in a trance.

It's really cool though, because when I watch something or play video games and basically do anything in life minus school work I'm usually caught up with it I have no awareness. Once in a lucid dream, I watched videos on my computer. I lost lucidity but I practically became part of the video thanks to how much I am in a trance during it. Last night I had a dream where I was "watching" the first south park episode, and I was part of it. Of course the episode itself was totally different... and involved everyone moving from Illinois to South Park.... but whatever the dream itself was cool.
08-23-2006, 05:09 PM
SKA

Well Meditation isn't per sé a completely Buddhist-orientated practice.
I read alot about the BASICS of Meditation and the main idea and what it actually is. And from there I built up my own Meditation practice.

I have found certain things that calm my mind. Tea, Ambient Music, Patchouli Incense, Candles... All these things I have added up and practise in my calm silent and dark bedroom. This way I find it much less a Struggle with my Subconcious mind.

Instead it's much like a Unison with and understanding of my Subconcious Mind.

Try figuring out what brings you into a calm meditative Mindset. They may be totally different things for you. Add it up and make a true ''Ritual'' out of it. I see it as near holy and deep spiritual when I do it. And I do it alot before bedtime when my Mind is to chaotic and spontanious to sleep yet.
08-23-2006, 09:50 PM
dreamerer

I think a good example of what was said earlier is when you are at the movie theater. You are watching the movie and all you see is the movie. Some one taps you on your shoulder and you look over to them and they tell you something. Then, when you look back to the screen, you see the movie playing AND the walls and the seats around you and the other people. After a while, you are again completely focused on the movie and that is all you see.
08-23-2006, 11:07 PM
SKA

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamerer

I think a good example of what was said earlier is when you are at the movie theater. You are watching the movie and all you see is the movie. Some one taps you on your shoulder and you look over to them and they tell you something. Then, when you look back to the screen, you see the movie playing AND the walls and the seats around you and the other people. After a while, you are again completely focused on the movie and that is all you see.
[/b]

Well put. I like Methaphors.

So the Movie is the Singulair thought you want to focus on and the person tapping on your Shouder would Symbolise a distractive spontanious thought. And meditation is basically Ignoring the people constantly tapping on your shoulder (dismissing distractive thoughts) and isolating yourself s much from these impulses, like an Authist to his surroundings, sothey simply are ''not there'' anymore. It makes keeping your 100% full attention directed at the Movie and NOTHING else much easier.
08-24-2006, 12:23 AM
DuB

Right, if what that guy said to you at camp is true, then I agree that meditation seems like an ideal way to improve lucid frequency. Taking up meditation certainly worked for wonders for my lucid frequency, but I also quit smoking pot at roughly the same time, so it was probably a combination of the two factors.

Anyway, true or not, meditation certainly won't hurt :wink:. Here's an article that's been tossed around the forum a few times that I think is a good read: Lucid Dreams and Meditation
08-24-2006, 01:06 AM
dreamerer

So you can watch movies 24/7 to improve focus! or maybe not.
08-24-2006, 01:26 AM
SKA

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamerer

So you can watch movies 24/7 to improve focus! or maybe not.
[/b]

A little time consuming lol.
But I think of a Good way of learning to control you own ThoughtProcess would be a meditative moment, of let's say 20 minutes, where you put on a music. Close your eyes and try to focus alll your attention to the Music that you hear playing. Everytime something else pops up in your Mind, dismiss it with the thought you don't wanna miss anything of the song. Don't get too involved with the music either. Observe it, sort of, feel how it enters your ears and how it vibrates, imagine how the sound travels to your ears, Visualise how the sound of louder and softer noises are Stronger and Weaker ''waves'' of ''auditory energy''.

An ambient song with alot of weird entrancing noises may work good to stay calm and not get too enthusiastic about the Music: This is why Metal wouldn't be suitable for this.

You'll find that at first your Mind wanders off Pretty fast. Try bringing your thoughts back on the music. Or actually NOT your thoughts. Only your pure, thoughtless intention on the Music. Don't think at all. This may seem near impossible at first, but after some practise I've noticed I am MUCH more capable and in general much more in Control of my own thought process. It even helped me through an Emotionally very tough Situation where I was near Freaking out and Loosing control. I used Meditation to calm down my Mind and Conciously think about what the negative emotions and feelings in me were, where they must have come from and how best to deal with them.

Thinking Mindfully about this, with a Calm mind, I pulled myself through this much easier than I would have before. Meditation is not only a great tool to relax the Spontanious Chaotic Mind for Lucid Dreaming: It can be a great Sleeping aid method, A method of dealing with Emotional stress and a way to Mindfully think about what choices in life are the right ones to take: the ones that will lead to success, happyness, love...etc

I've only just entered the world of Meditation and Mindfull living but I have a totally different, much more positive look on life already. With enough Mind control one can decide how to feel, to think before you act and to make the wise decisions in life. I love it. It's a very good thing that I found it.
08-24-2006, 04:34 AM
ilovefrootloopz

Concentrating on a movie... holy crap that ruins the whole movie lol.

But when I think about it.... most of the day my mind is totally wandering. Of course, sometimes when something important happens my attention shifts to that, but I'm still not aware. Example, today I went to Canada's Wonderland. When I was going on the roller coasters, my thoughts shifted to the drops, loops, and the feeling I was having. Oh yeah and I happened to be thinking about WILD at that time too lol. But, when something else came up my thoughts just switch. It's not being aware.

Today, I became "aware" about 15 times, for only about 10 seconds each.

I'll definetly try meditating, but usually nothing calms me down....
08-24-2006, 07:34 PM
dreamerer

yeaaaaaaaaaaaa, but I find it hard to sit down for 20 freakin minutes just listening to calm music.
08-25-2006, 06:38 PM
SKA

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamerer

yeaaaaaaaaaaaa, but I find it hard to sit down for 20 freakin minutes just listening to calm music.
[/b]

yeah it is hard indeed. Meditating isn't gunna allow you to Instantly Focus and Strenghten your attention: It is LEARNING how to. Meditating every day for aboout 20 minutes is like a learning process. After a while you'll learn to get the hang of it.

Try focussing your attention on a Picture or Symbol and you'll find your Mind wandering off pretty fast. You're not retarded. It's just the ''normal'' attention and awareness-level people in general have. Meditating is all about Increasing that level of awareness and attention focussing abilities. It may take time, but becomming aware of your own spontanious thought process helped me out alot: If you suddenly find yourself thinking about something. try and link back to the previous thoughts, how one thought linked to the other and where the initial thought was caused in the first place.

I found that Subconciously my eyes had picked up a Sublime glimpse of, lets say, a bag of Weed lying in my line of sight. The bag of weed got me thinking about Marijuana. In turn this Marijuana-thought at some point Linked to Reggae and Marijuana Culture. Which in turn linked to another thought about the war on Drugs in America, which in turn linked to a thought about openmindedness towards Psychedelics.

Usually I only become aware of the thought process while I was thinking about Openmindedness towards Psychedelics. From there I figured out how my Mind linked it all the way to that thought from the other preceeding thoughts. and Eventually I'll find out that it was the bag of Weed that Sparked the Initial thought in the First place only afterwards.
08-29-2006, 01:31 PM
clarkkent

Thanks for that interesting link.

I read it and realised that the self-remembering reference and rejecting ordinary "with-drawn" meditation altogether, is something done in Centering Prayer (see the book Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening, which refers to Gurdjieff too coincidentally)..

So Centering Prayer contemplation probably has a similar effect. Great to know as I've been doing that recently. Sometimes I've even had hypnagogics while doing it.
The book I mentioned mentions not to observe the observer as it can be dangerous. If there is a complete parallel between lucidity and this meditation, would there be any similar danger in lucidity? I would think there isn't.