The Fatal Flaw With Rcs

So here's a thought. It's the one thing that is preventing me from LDing IMO. I mean, not the actual thought, but the doubt it generates.

When I RC, I first pinch my nose, and then scrutinize my surroundings. Usually I RC whenever I see something out of the ordinary, or something beautiful (my dreams tend to be idealistic) So, anyway. RCs.What I was thinking is this. When I RC i say first Ow. that hurt. So I'm probably awake. Then I ask why is that there? that's not usually there. (for example there's a spare tire on my porch) and then I figure out why it's there, either via memory or asking people. So after I go through all this I say, ok. Good. I'm awake. But if I do an RC in a dream, and it doesn't actually hurt, but I say and think ow, that hurt. And then rationalize using MADE UP information (This man has tentacles for arms because the miracle of modern medicine. Or I ask him and he says because I'm part octopus) then continue my dream, how will I ever become Lucid? Am I doing this wrong? I try to always always RC, and I feel as though LDing has entered my dreams in the background which is a good sign I hear. So, I have a great deal of confidence in LD, just not in my RCing techniques.

Tell me if I'm not being clear enough. :|

P.S. I think what I'm trying to say is, how do I keep the laws of the waking world fresh in my mind when I go to sleep? I seem to be way to good at making up new ones.

I don't know about doing RCs that involve feeling something. In my dreams my sense of touch is fully in tact. For example, in one lucid dream I was beating up on some suckas and I felt my elbow take the shock when I dropped an elbow on one guy's chest. If someone were to pinch me, or I pinch myself, I think I would feel it. The only reality check to work for me has been the mechanical failure. A lightswitch not working, for example.

It has nothing to do with keeping the laws... it your RCs are not legitimate RC's... the problem is your reality check method. Your reality check method is seeing how "real" things are... if you dont feel pain, you must be dreaming. Pinching is not a real reality check... only in movies. Real reality checks exploit the instability of dreams to show that you are dreaming. In reality, if you check your watch it will always stay consistent. But in dreams it might just be glyphs or it might alternate times everytime you look at it. If you count your fingers, it might be different each time. etc. Most people do things like this that question the stability of the environment. If you do the reality check and think "if i stick my finger through my hand, then I am dreaming." Then that is a good reality check, because it is likely that it will go through your hand.

And you can't depend on strange things happening for you to realize that you are dreaming. Its about good reality checks.

But what if your finger doesn't go through your hand? or you can tell time correctly? Whatif everything in your dreams always "checks out" I mean, are these constant things? I'm just wondering why, as well. Does anyone have any links explaining device failure in dreams? I really like the sucking in through the nose one, though. It's a winner.

The RC I've used every time to get a DILD is the "Breath Through Your Nose" RC. Just pinch your nose closed, shut your mouth, and try and breath. If you can breath, you are obviously dreaming, it's made me lucid every time my dream self does it.

You should come up with a RC that is an impossibility in reality, the one that never fails me is I stand in place and mentally try to make myself float and tumble in mid air and if it works then I'm good to go, only this is a RC I hope fails me someday :wink:

In my opinion, the best reality check is the memory check. You either do it on its own, or do it to back up other rc's simultaneously. Check your memory; think about your situation - how did I get here? Do them properly, otherwise you'll do it bad in the dream.

E.g. of a bad reality check/memory check:

Waking memory check: "Oh, of course I am not dreaming."
Dreaming memory check: "Oh of course I am not dreaming."

Oh and don't pinch yourself - you might wake up if it's a dream! :D

IMO, the nose pinching one is the best for several reasons:

1. It doesnt take any time or concentration. You simply do the action and hope that it becomes habit so you will repeat it in a dream.
2. It will objectively work every time, since it requires no concentration or attention from the LDer.
3. If you use one that requires too much thought or time, you may find yourself being pulled out of the dream or wasting valuable LD time.

I test my reality by jumping. If I'm in a dream, it launches me in the air to fly, or I at least hover. If I'm awake, gravity pulls me right back down. I used to do the nose-pinching thing, but I thought something I do all the time in my dreams anyway would be more natural for me, and it works.

I'm saying that for most people telling time is not constant in dreams... it has nothing to do with your ability to tell time correctly... its just that numbers and words change constantly in dreams.

What if your problem is you dont know "when" to do a reality check? :) I always wake up with great recall and think "why the heck didnt I realize I was dreaming" and a RC didn't even cross my mind.

Although, I do obtain lucidity from time to time.

one thing you can do, is when you pinch your nose, try and breath through it. your mind will probaby realize it's not normal to breath throu a closed nose.

i've always used the digital clock/cell phone thing or reading text as a reality check. in my dreams, i've never had the clock thing fail. like someone said, that's nothing to worry about (worry about somehow being able to tell perfect time on a digital, that is) because it won't happen. it's just one of those things you can count on in a lucid dream. watch Waking Life (if you haven't already)... the way they show the clock moving is EXACTLY how it looks for me. just be careful not to question the cell phone's battery or something. always investigate further, then you'll realize you're dreaming.

i've never tried the nose pinching thing, maybe i'll throw that one in there too.

The only reality check I do in dreams is, like Squishy, jumping, or rather 'going up'. Usually works! However the weird thing is that my normal transport method (since the first dream I can remember) is flying and I haven't yet reconstrued this as a dreamsign, because like you Sprout - I can make excuses for the MOST bizarre things with no problem (otherwise I'd be LDing all the time!!!) But I don't let this stress me... Actually I think the ability to suspend belief is an important prerequisite for wayout creative dreams, especially ones where you maintain lucidity but let the bulk of the dream world have a life of its own - and I'm sure you will be LDing in no time. My only dreamsign is the RC itself - i.e. as soon as I think "Do a RC" I become lucid - its the question itself "Am i dreaming?" that does it because in order to prompt this question there's been something dreamlike happening. Perhaps, now you have the habit of doing RCs in waking life and they are creeping into your dreams (great!) - stop doing them in your WL. Or perhaps, rather than using an analytical, scientific method to justify e.g. the tyre's existence - try checking your senses. Sorry i'm waffling - but the reason would be that during waking life surely you don't have to RC? It's always immediately and continuously obvious that one is awake - it's the feeling - you don't need to pinch your nose whilst awake to see if you're not dreaming. I'm not knocking the RC method BTW. Rather, or additionally, I would encourage a present-centred awareness - "Be here now" - in dreams and WL.

Slimslowslider - see, that's what I thought, but then I also thought that if I gave up questioning reality, I would never question reality in a dream. Isn';t that what it's for? just simply carrying the habit over to Dreaming life? Only I never REALLY question my surroundings. I only pretend to, to humor myself I guess. I do already spend a lot of time basking in my senses (for improved Dream vividness) but explain what you mean.

You're right that the RC method gets you in the habit of questioning reality which carries over into your dreams - and you seem to have got this bit fine. (BTW this may also mean that you find dream incubation easy?) But if you are 'just pretending' perhaps that's the real problem? On the other hand if you already spend time in WL 'basking in your senses' then you're already doing what I suggested! I.e. RCing with your senses rather than the analytical mind (which IMO is easier to fool). But there are ways of increasing the sophistication of the senses - mainly through practice, e.g. when walking to school/ work/ wherever, pick a different sense each day and try to focus on that one. Do you know which if any mode of thinking you operate in? (There's lots of different theories about this - google it if interested) Do you ever meditate? I'm thinking of the type where you aim to simply watch the 'monkey mind' and its processes without getting carried along with it. Like standing by a road and looking straight ahead as cars go by. I don't! But I do hold a philosophy where I believe reality is in the here and now (and that suffering--regrets and fear--only exists in the non-existent past and future), and even that is all illusion, which surprisingly doesn't complicate the RC process - there's just dream illusion and waking illusion! (I'm not really that far out - its just a philosophy most of the time :wink:) The point is, and sorry I'm waffling again, be aware all the time. One method to practice being present-centered was to touch every door frame you pass (might as well do an RC at the same time) very difficult! And then before you become obsessive-compulsive, change the object you touch. This was presented as a game at a LD dream workshop where other 'players' would poke fun at you if you forgot (or something like that).

Hope that helps :?

Sweet dreams!

I don't ever attempt dream incubation, but I should probably get good at it pretty soon here, if I'm ever going to do what I want with dreaming. That's the problem! I feel the exact same way about the waking illusion and the dreaming illusion, that's why I try to never in my RCs say "this is real" but instead say "These things are obeying the laws of the waking world"

How do I RC with my senses as opposed to myanalytical mind? won't my senses in Dreams ideally be identical to those of my waking existance? I mean, is there a richness in WL that's not in DL? Hey, LD (lucid dream) and (Dreaming life) DL, anyway, where was I? I know that I'm a visual/touch learner, but I don't know if that's what you mean. I don't meditate... My mind is so hyperactive. I have like 2 levels of conciousness. One that thinks in words, and one that thinks entire ideas at a time. It's impossible for meto silence either of them, and I end up watching a ball bounce off of a paddle in my head, or any other simillar repeatable action, but when I try to change it, for example move the paddle so that the ball falls past, the ball "respawns" at the top of its decent once it goes out of sight. Maybe I should work on those issues first.

I will do the doorfram + RC thing, that sounds like a good idea.

P.S. Don't worry, I don't so much mind that you waffle.

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Originally Posted by Sprout

I feel the exact same way about the waking illusion and the dreaming illusion, that's why I try to never in my RCs say "this is real" but instead say "These things are obeying the laws of the waking world"
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Sounds analytical to me - "Feel the force Luke" don't think it. I may be barking up the wrong tree here and/or just confusing the issue - and other people on DV may have better advice. But...try to turn off the commentary and just look and touch without labelling.

Alternatively, rather than just scanning the world and saying "All seems OK." do a big obvious RC (clock, nose pinch, flight and many others elsewhere on DV) like trying to push your finger through your hand ('though it won't always work, as we already discussed...) but don't say "OK so my finger doesnt go through my hand!" SEE it not going through, or with your eyes closed, FEEL your finger meeting resistance?

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How do I RC with my senses as opposed to myanalytical mind? won't my senses in Dreams ideally be identical to those of my waking existance? I mean, is there a richness in WL that's not in DL?[/b]

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In my experience there is a difference. A normal dream can seem real, but is only as real as your creative subconscious can conjour. This is why it makes mistakes that can become dreamsigns and its why the RCs and prolonging techniques can work. Vivid dreams and lucid dreams can appear very real or even hyper real - but for me there is always still a difference - it FEELS like a dream.

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I know that I'm a visual/touch learner, but I don't know if that's what you mean.[/b]

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Just trying to get into your mind :wink: I thought/think you are maybe verbal - i.e. seeking a verbal confirmation from your mind of reality.

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I don't meditate... My mind is so hyperactive. I have like 2 levels of conciousness. One that thinks in words, and one that thinks entire ideas at a time. It's impossible for meto silence either of them, and I end up watching a ball bounce off of a paddle in my head, or any other simillar repeatable action, but when I try to change it, for example move the paddle so that the ball falls past, the ball "respawns" at the top of its decent once it goes out of sight. Maybe I should work on those issues first.[/b]

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Maybe - I have a brain a bit like this so can sympathise! LDs are much more frequent when I'm relaxed - like on holiday. And I cant WILD at all if I'm stressed.

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P.S. Don't worry, I don't so much mind that you waffle.[/b]

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Thanks! :shock:

sweet dreams

This door frame thing is really keeping my on my toes... I'm CONSTANTLY having to think about LDing. I don't know how it's going to really affect my success rate, (I was up till 4 last night, so I didn't even remember my dreams) but I have a feeling more people should be doing this. Thanks.

Well I really hope it works! Please keep us posted. I would try same (keep meaning to get serious about all this!!!) but am soooooo :makeitstop: trying to give up nicotine (36hours so far!!!) - and I've currently only got the attention span of a goldfish. In the meantime I'll try and remember where I read it so I can give them due credit (if it works!) But its similar to a few Zen techniques... There's the story of the old monk who goes to visit his master, hoping to finally be able to get confirmation that he's become enlightened (after years of meditation etc) However, when questioned, he couldn't remember which side of the door he left his shoes, so was sent away, again...

sweet (lucid) dreams

I got my first lucid (out of one and a half), when I held a pause in trying to lucid dream, doing RCs, and stuff, it somehow just hit me, that what I see is so strange I did an RC (I was already almost knew I was dreaming), and it became crystal clear (I mean the fact that I'm dreaming, the dream sadly stayed fuzzy :( ).
After that the dream faded away quickly, had a FA, but I didn't even had to do a RC I knew I was still dreaming, then I woke up really.

So maybe if you are trying this for a month, have a week break, it might help.

Edit: Ups, forgot to read second page, anyway I think it still fits, so I leave it as is

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Originally Posted by qzole

So maybe if you are trying this for a month, have a week break, it might help.
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Could be something here - I find that reading the DV forum, after a break, gives me LDs, then the effect wears off after a while - almost like being saturated. People also say that one should voice a desire then let go of it for the best results.

I keep thinking about learning/thinking modes and RCs - it seems likely that RCs should be tailored to match the learning/thinking mode. I've started a post & poll here to try to get a handle on this.

What says that I will be able to breathe through my nose when I'm dreaming?? Last night was really frustrating because I did remember to do a RC but I just didn't succeed breating through my nose. (GAAH...) I just concluded: "No I'm not dreaming", just like I use to say in reality... Please I need some help here :(

Thank You

I have a back up RC. Whenever I fail the nose one, (all the time in the waking world) I do the finger through the hand. After that it's sort of tought luck for me. :) Good luck. Sorry, I'm not exactly an expert. :P

I have similar issues Sprout. I've tried the finger poke through hand attempt in my sleep and it failed in a dream, and though the dream was clearly screaming out 'DREAM,' I could justify it or accept it (which also means no known dreamsign yet, so I have no advice for you).

Though, I was wondering, have you ever gone through a dream that you weren't lucid on and thought 'gee this place reminds of that one dream I had' or 'hey, I remember being right there doing *insert action here* in a dream,' knowing that the place was exactly the same or a bit different and just went on, not becoming lucid?