Gameover's WBTB tutorial

Ok...I know there's a tutorial now but I feel I need to explain the exact steps that I take because it almost never fails for me.

1:Go to sleep tired

2Wake up 5 hours later

3Write down your dreams that youve just had(Very helpfull!)

4:Stay awake for 60-90 minutes(90 reccomended) writing and reading in your dream journal, and doing a lot of reality checks, and staying focused on dreaming(focused but not stressing)

5:Go to sleep and(*) think about your last dream, or imagine walking around a dreamscape. Nowhere special, just walking around anywhere

6:keep thinking "I am dreaming" but don't stress yourself

Well, from my experience these steps, followed exactly, give me an almost 100% chance of having a lucid dream.

(*)you may try any method at this point but I have given the method that gives me the most success.

I got my lazy self to actually try this method, doing exactly what Gameover just explained, and it worked the very first time! :D I support it.

:goodjob2:

Sounds good! Whatever works we'll take. :D

Squall, I'm including your method under Gameover's tutorial check the WBTB Tutorial.

Only two months ago I wasn't lucid dreaming at all. Well I was, but so spread out and for only for brief moments. But now I have them every other day, less when Im lazy, and It's all in this tutorial. But I'm not limited to WBTB. It's helped me become aware in general so DILD's are now possible. This has been an amazing catalyst for what I'd call my lucid dream explosion. WILD's, DILD's and MILD's everywhere.

I hear so much about people working at it for months and months and still don't get lucid dreams. I really hope this works for others like it has for me.

90 minutes is a lot. it alone took me abuot an hour to fall back asleep after being awake for a full hour, but i got no positive results either. I'll try your method tomorrow morning. i dont have a problem staying up for an hour and a half..it's just that i dont want to spend forever trying to get back to sleep

The key is to wake up early so even after an hour and a half youll fall aslep easily. And its good to wake up at a time so when you fall asleep it's still dark out. I notice its harder to fall asleep when the suns out. But for me, after 90 minutes I'm so ready for sleep.

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Originally posted by gameover
The key is to wake up early so even after an hour and a half youll fall aslep easily. And its good to wake up at a time so when you fall asleep it's still dark out. I notice its harder to fall asleep when the suns out. But for me, after 90 minutes I'm so ready for sleep.

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I'll try, but there's one problem for me. by the time it's been 5 hours, the suns already up(8 am) so that must be why it was hard for me. but like i said, i'll try this tomorrow morning and try to enclose all light in the room

try going to sleep earlier. If youre not tired maybe try 3mg melatonin 30 minutes before you want to go to sleep. Puts me to sleep like a baby.

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Originally posted by gameover
try going to sleep earlier. If youre not tired maybe try 3mg melatonin 30 minutes before you want to go to sleep. Puts me to sleep like a baby.

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i'll try...oh and should you eat something while you wait? or sleep on an empty stomach. i dont have melatonin to help me sleep so cant use that.

I think you should eat something.. not sugary though! I heard eating before bed in general puts people to sleep better.

Well, the best thing to do is adjust your sleep cycle so you're naturally tired at that time. But for now, whatever works. Food, melatonin, running laps around the block.....

I just wanted to post and say i finally got my lucid dream this morning after staying up for an hour and a half. thanks gameover...although when i woke i coudlnt remember any of the dream, but i tried harder.

BTW i have another question. how long do you usually stay asleep after you go back to bed. I was asleep for about 4 hours and woke up at 2:00 PM. kinda surprised me taht i slept so late.

oh and i met my dream guide to(if it was actually my dream guide, im still trying to figure it out). I asked her questions, but i cant remember any of her answers that i asked though which sucks. i remember asking the question, but the asnwers are a blurr. the only thing i remember is asking her name and her name is strange, but im going to ask her again...

anyway just wanted to say thanks for helping me out

Aha! Finally 90 minutes is cathing on. And yeah I do sleep til 2:00 also, but my LD's are usualyl quite long, so Im happy. Of course I dont have to sleep this late, but when I have nowhere to be, Id rather being dreaming.

The first thing Im gonna do next LD is summon my dream guide. I woulkd have this morning byt my WBTB was unsuccesfull :( But that was probably because I only stayed up 60 minutes.

Keep me posted if you have mroe contact with your dream guide, as this is now priority one for me in my dreams. My goal is to get in touch with my dream guide and find a way to summon him or her at anytime during an LD. Make him or her a reocurring dream character that is in touch with my subconcious.

Question: How do you determine who is your dream guilde and how do you summon him/her?

Is it a matter of willing it?

Would you say it's best to wake up naturally, say after your first REM cycle or set an alarm clock to wake you up? I was going to try WBTB again tonight but when I woke up I just rolled over once and went back to sleep.

Thanks.

-Amé

Try either. I would say sleep for 5-6 hours and have an alarmclock. Thats what I do. Gradually I have programmed my self to wake up after 5-6 hours naturally.

It should come naturally eventually. In fact sometimes I just directly fall back asleep and I still have a ld. you could say I am a natural who has learned to be natural. hehe. I wouldn't say I am a natural. I have learned to make it more natural. 8)

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Keep me posted if you have mroe contact with your dream guide, as this is now priority one for me in my dreams[/b]

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Will do. btw, does this name ring a bell to anyone? Ardiology/Ardiologious. That's the name the dream guide told me, very strange. I cant remember the exact pronounciation or the name itself, but i remeber her telling me it sounds like Archeology.

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Question: How do you determine who is your dream guilde and how do you summon him/her? Is it a matter of willing it?[/b]

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Well, All i did was put my hands out and say "i want to meet my dream guide" or "I wish to speak to my dream guide". you have to mean it to. just summon it and you should expect to see someone coming. it wont be immidiate though. I had to wait a while for her to climb up the stairs to my floor. As for determining who is your dream guide, well thats up to you to figure out. Its usually whoever just entered your dreamworld or who just came in. you can ask it if it's your dream guide to if you have your suspicions.

NOTE: there is a posibility that the dream guide you summon is a dream character instead. Im still trying to figure out if this dream guide is really my dream guide or a dream character pretending to be the dream guide.

What is a dreamguide used for?

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Originally posted by Lucid83
What is a dreamguide used for?

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to help you. A dream guide is basically like your teacher. They know (possibly) more about you than you do. Like your subconcious. They can teach you about yourself and about how to manuever within the dream world

The dream guide is whatever you want it to be. If you want it to be a guy who helps you find places in the dream world, then thats what he is. If you want him to help you understand more than thats what he can be....

...or not, Ive never met my dream guide. Im clearly talking out of my ass :P

Gameover, your worst fears of going down under didnt materialize. Your post is at the top.

Congrats :!: :!:

Hey you're right. But even this will only last so long. But the tutorial you put together wil last. As long as the word is out somehow. It seems to be catching on and getting people results.

Gameover, did you try [img] link [img]

link has to be an internet address such as http://www.banner.com/wbtb.jpg

yes thats exactly what I did....its hosted on yahoo geocities.

whats the website

http://www.geocities.com/gameover409/banner2.JPG

trying to figure this out before I make a decent banner :P

Haha, good start! ;) Are we all gonna make our own then?

lets make a good one then share it

I dont know. I wish I had a decent program for making these, like I did when I lived in Chicago. ANy banners are cool, as long as theyre representing WBTB...but first things first...how do I get it on my sig! look at my sig. Its says it all there, but its not on there. Im confused :P

EDIT IN: Sharing sounds cool. ANyone want to take up the task of making a really cool one? I think we should represent the 90 minute version....

Geocities is one of the servers that doesn't show up on dreamviews. Go to the thread that says, "Post pictures of yourself, and only pictures, here"... I think Lowercase Society lists like 3 servers that do work.

Edit: ooooh, I can make one! ;) Just tell me what you want on it, though. And what kind of background.

I trust your creaitve eye. But I do think it should say 90 minute WBTB'ers unite. Or something liek that. ANythings better than the piece of shit I made.

And as for Lucid's question, I think it is a matter of willing it. I havent done it yet, but I will, and I will post results as they come. This is now my main focus as for what to do in my LD's.

Worked for me.

Type this exactly in your profile where is says Signature. SAME CAPITALIZATION TOO.


Copy and Paste This!
["img]http://www.geocities.com/gameover409/banner2.JPG[/img"]

Should work.


Those two quotation marks before and after img remove them when pasting!!!

Gah, I can't see ANY of the pictures, not even the one in my own sig! Is something wrong with my computer??lol

I dont see an image. I see a little white box with an x in it. Same as your sig. I dont see an image there either. Just the little box with the x

EDIT: I see your sig Scwigglie

change your slash to a forward slash

[/img]


then go visit the website first, then come back to dreamviews and then yous houdl see your picture
PERFECTO!!!!!

Now we need a good signature banner!!!

Now I see that little white box with an x in it on mine too....:( Someone esle jsut make a cool WBTB sig and then i wont have to worry about all this nonsense :P

Yeah I see the little x's everywhere too! ahhhh!! We must be dreaming. Quick, do a reality check!!!!

to see the picture first go to the picture on the web browser

then come back to dreamviews and click refresh on your posted page

should show up

i can see your's gameover and schwiggle's

SO for everyone to see my sig they need to do all of this? And anyways I jsut did and it didnt work. You knwo I dont see your sig. Does anyone else see Lucid's sig? Im giving up right now. Im waiting for Scwigglie to show us the coolest WBTB banner ever!!!(probably the first, so no pressure :P )

EDIT: ok it works now. But everyone else probably doesnt see it. I still dont see yours lucid.
Man my banners ugly. Someone make a nice one quick.
EDIT AGAIN: now it went away again. This is too unreliable...
YET ANOTHER EDIT:Now it came back! Whats going on.... :?:
HOPEFULL THE LAST EDIT: I do see your banner now Lucid, but ebcause its the same as mine

Ha! Okay, now I see mine and no one else's.

I think Ev is responsible for this. :roll:

Edit: Oh, is everyone's [IMG][/IMG] capitalized? I think that may be it.. :?:

mines not capitalized, and I see mine half the time. Not sure why. Sometimes its there, sometimes its not. Well, Im gonna remove it anyways because it sucks, its big, bulky, and ugly. Are you makin a banner scwig?

Yep I will! I'll make a few, just in case. I have to leave for a bit though, I'll make 'em when I come back. 8)

Try capitalizing your IMG.

Check out my new Banner

Its nice...A bit long(text too samll) but brilliante nonetheless. Anybody want to make me a birlliante banner since all I have on this damn pc is paint :P

Okay, what do you think of this one?

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7719/ldbanner1.jpg

(Should we put something like, "The Official WBTB Club" or something? :P

Edit: It might be a little too big..

nice start but I think we should make it some sort of club so we can feel special :P and maybe wider and shorter too. I like the Borg one. I thought that ws an excellent banner. If I can actually come up with any ideas Ill let you know.

Eh, maybe we could just write something in our sigs for the time being.. like you have!

Official WBTB Club sounds nice!!

hey send the link for the borg one. Or something. YOure making all the nice WBTB banners! I want to steal one...!

What the heck's a borg? lol I want one too.

The thing from Star Trek that says "you will be assimilated. resistance is futile" I never understood why the did resist. They were all joining as one...it was beautiful really..sniff... :muffin:

http://lucid83.photosite.com/album1/

let me know if you cant reach it

should i create another banner for us as a group or do you like the star trek ones

borg are cybernetic creatures half human half robot

Ok..I got an idea....how about taking that borg one, and customizing it so the name matches each person? Of course since I wouldbt be doing even the slightest bit of work here, the descision is yours. And whats the address to just the picture?

http://lucid83.photosite.com/~photos/tn/19...91570303506.jpg

http://lucid83.photosite.com/~photos/tn/21...91572541024.jpg

Hehe, I like the "resistance is futile" one. 8) Is it okay if they're that big tho?

Check out the new Banner!!!!

Official WBTB Member!!! :muffin:

have a muffin

Give me the image link. So i can use it...if thats cool w/ you. Now that there's a club, dont you feel specail? Forget the underprivelaged people and forget the Mods and all that BS. We're the WBTB'ers and we can have LD's whenevr we want! WBTB'ers are uniting!

well I got my own now...

http://lucid83.photosite.com/~photos/tn/23...91596424003.jpg

hey gameover do you think you can shorten your banner a wee bit? its so long that it causes people's computer to have to scroll to the left and right constantly to read anything

fixed it...I think

maybe we should have separate ones for now..or should we share one

schwiggle put yorus on your signature and we are set, lets get more members to put up banners too

BAH! Imaitations. :|

I start one club and the whole forum erupts in a wave of banners! :shock:

Anyway, this whole WBTB method seems strangely familiar to me. http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/p/paranoid.gif

ha....jealousy errupts with the timely emergance of the coolest club this place has seen....

And we never claimed to create the WBTB method. We jsut practice it religously and prefect it. 90minutes is where its at...I think I should add that to the banner..

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Originally posted by gameover
ha....jealousy errupts with the timely emergance of the coolest club this place has seen....

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Coolest club? That'll be the day. http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/s/sarcasticclap.gif

I'm beginning to dislike this whole banner/club segregation we've started here, feel free to continue using yours I don't care really, make all the clubs you wish.

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We jsut practice it religously and prefect it.[/b]

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What did you do to perfect it?

Well arent you grumpy. Wake up on the wrong side of the bed? What I did to perfect it was keep at it, finding the right times and practices, until I found a system that is almost 100% effective. And I think thats saying a lot. Ive only failed with this sytem twice. And Im still working to perfect it today. Understanding how to keep my mind awake and put my body to sleep. Getting more and more WILD's all the time.

And segregation? This is so harmless. We're not starting gangs...

just thought that the slogan often immitated never duplicated sounded cool

didn't mean to imply that there is only one method and that other methods are immitations. ;)

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And segregation? This is so harmless. We're not starting gangs...[/b]

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lol ;) I know, everyone's just so suspicious.

Believe it or not.. sometimes things really can be harmless. :)

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I'm beginning to dislike this whole banner/club segregation we've started here, feel free to continue using yours I don't care really, make all the clubs you wish. [/b]

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(*nods*)

Am I seeing double?

When I'm awake for the 90 minutes should I be out of bed for that time, or is it okay to be lying in bed? Which conditions apply?

Lights on
Out of bed for the entire time
Sitting in bed is okay
Lying in bed is okay

Thanks!

Its important that you get out of bed. Its key that you fully wake up, except dont do too much physical activity. Your body should be sleepy still. I reccomend getting up, sitting at a table or desk and writing and reading in your dream journal, and reading a WBTB induction technique and keep doing RC's..read the tuorial.

I'm going to try these exact steps tmorrow & the day after since I'm newb style right now. I hope it works as good for me as it has you. I'll keep you posted.

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What did you do to perfect it?[/b]

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I'll endorse this as perfect if I manage to get a LD by the end of the week since I am yet to have what I could call a real LD. I am so freaking ready though!

Well I wish you the best. But dont get the idea that I'm encouraging it for a "plug". I just want to see people get lucid and this seems to do the trick.

With that said, good luck, and feel free to PM me with any questions or progress. I'm interested to see how this goes.

:? I'm starting to have a little problem though. I'm running out of things to do! I can't go on the computer because my dad gets up early for work and uses it before he leaves. And I've reread my dream journal too many times already. Anything else you'd suggest to occupy an hour?

Dont stress. Just keep checking if your dreaming, and chill on the forum or something. THis is why I want to get a good lucid dreaming book. But whatever you do, keep doing those RC"s and focus on the lucid dream you're about to have.

lol I can't go on the forum.. my dad's on the computer in the mornings.

I guess I could just sit there and.. think.. or something.

Get a good lucid dreaming movie(Waking Life :D ) and watch it for most of the time, doing reality checks....ive never tried this but once I get Waking Life Im going to. Go for a short walk.

what gameover said. just keep doing those RC's and stay focused. I myself am thinking of doing other things like hot shower or meditating...i dunno if it would work well though....

Yeah I was thinking about the shower thing too. I don't know if it would wake you up too much though.

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Originally posted by Scwigglie
Yeah I was thinking about the shower thing too. I don't know if it would wake you up too much though.

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I would think that it would make you feel more relaxed?...well if you took a cold shower then yeah...it would wake you up more then :P

Im gonna try that if I can wake up early...shit Im tired..forgot I took melatonin, 40 minutes ago.....goodnight friends of dv :dreaming:

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Originally posted by Scwigglie

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And segregation? This is so harmless. We're not starting gangs...

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lol ;) I know, everyone's just so suspicious.

Believe it or not.. sometimes things really can be harmless. :)[/b]

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Who said it was harmful? I just said I didn't like it. :|

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Originally posted by Scwigglie
I think you should eat something.. not sugary though! I heard eating before bed in general puts people to sleep better.

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It might put you to sleep better, but the stuff your stomach is going to be doing gives you a hard time to actually sleep.

Does the digestion keep youy awake? Ive only heard that food puts you to sleep easily and I dont recall ever waking up from a sandwhich :P

Well your body is trying to digest the food in a raw stage, so you might not wake up, but you'll toss and turn a lot more.

gameover, how long are your lucid dreams when you have them.

also I recommend watching The Butterfly Effect, its kind of like a lucid dreaming movie.

check out my modification of my tutorial, click on my link

My LD's are usualy about 20 minutes..or at least thats how long they feel. But sometmes they can go even longer. Shortest one Ive had in the pst few weeks was 5 minutes.

I saw the Butterfly effect, and Ill check out the tutorial ina sec.

Nice touch, but why "What dreams May Come"? That movie was ridiculous. Maybe a list would be better than pictures?

hmm...ill post a topic in the tutorial feedback section and see what people's reaction is to the pictures for waking life and what dreams may come

oh...that movie...i can see why that's their, but isn't it ultimately about afterlife? btw...near the end the movie pretty much sucked

what do you think of the pictures in the tutorial, shoudl i keep them

I definitely think you should keep the pictures. :) Visuals are always good. Will you add Vanilla Sky to that one? It's another good one.

wow, I didn't get any real lucid dreams but I'm pretty sure I did become aware a couple times but for some reason those parts are the hardest to remember. I recalled 3 short dreams before I woke up and stayed up for around 80 minutes. Then I had 4 very vivid and long dreams which were all cool. Not a complete failure because I noticed a crap load of dream signs during the 4 after WBTBing.

Wow...sounds like you're about two inches from having a success with WBTB. Keep it up, youll have one in no time at all. Wait...am I dreaming?

i have only tried the wbtb method once, but i only stayed up for half an hour. i remembered my dreams better but didnt become lucid. Im gonna try 90 minutes tonight.

Please post results. And if you need any help feel free to PM me.

School is out for 2 weeks so I'll get plenty of chances to practice. I'm really tired today so I'll try and goto sleep early enough to wake up while it's still dark to see if that helps me break the barrier between dream and LD. GL to you too sqwump, we can do it! we can do it all night long ;)

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Originally posted by gameover
Get a good lucid dreaming movie(Waking Life :D ) and watch it for most of the time, doing reality checks....ive never tried this but once I get Waking Life Im going to. Go for a short walk.

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A walk works well as long as you don't live in the bronx or something. :-P

Yes, WBTB will definitely give you good recall for the night if not a lucid.

A WBTB club? Sounds cool. It's a great induction method. :)

i tried it again with 90 minutes this time. it kinda worked. it helped with dream recall but as soon as i remembered i was dreaming i woke up.

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Originally posted by sqwump
i tried it again with 90 minutes this time. it kinda worked. it helped with dream recall but as soon as i remembered i was dreaming i woke up.

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Don't worry that happens to alot of 1st timers, infact my FIRST night this happened to me twice and then I never recalled doing it again for 2+ months. Until last night 8) FINALLY had what I would consider a real LD.

I combined the WBTB technique and this naming of subconscious MILD technique and got my first taste of success with a 20 second conscious dream where I was sitting in my room in front of a computer. Then I did the hand+finger RC and realized I was dreaming and this looks nothing like my room! I was admiring my accomplishment and looking at the swirls in the air/on the textures of the wall. I tried to call my dream guide but got some weird visuals and faded out. I didn't stay focused enough because calling my dream guide was the only thing I could think of that I wanted to do and after trying it mentally I started thinking about what else I wanted to do.

additional notes about my first LD:
this was my first night after summer school so I didn't have to worry about that any more and could concentrate entirely on LDing.
used the techniques in these threads together (mnemonics during the remembering intent reinforcing):
http://dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=85414
http://dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6558
woke up 5:15 after going to bed a midnight tired.
lied in bed for 1/3 my awke WBTB time:
http://dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6624

I jsut named my subconious...Noodles! Ha...I like it. Noodles...please give me lucidity in my dreams.

This method worked 2 out of 2 times for me. Each time I feel like I have to rip myself away from my self. If I try to sit up, I fall back down into dream bed, but rolling sems to work. Based on two dreams, walking through walls seems difficult, but flying through a ceiling seems easy. Soes anybody have similar things happen when they try this method? Thses were my first two LD's since trying for 2 weeks.
Thanks

I tried WBTB last night, but it didn't work. I think it's because I slept for only 3 hours before waking up (Something I was dreaming about startled me into waking). So I'll try it again tonight.

Also, my 100th post!

i've tried it twice, hasn't worked... i think its because i'm not aware of myself enough... i've just been reading stuff on dreamviews, and i kind of go into the "reading hypnonsis mode."

Not aware of yourself? Can you elaborate? Its good to bevery aware of your dreams, as in having good recall so you can remember what its like to be in a dream.

when i get up i just sort of... write down the dream, and i just concentrate on writing, i go into a mode of remembering, and i forget all other thoughts at that moment apart from stuff related to whatever i'm doing.

then i might go online, and when i'm reading posts i go into the same state. i just think about whatever i'm reading and nothing else.

its like... anti lucidity mode. its like... playing video games, reading novels, watching tv, etc... just become unaware, like in a dream.

my recall is fine, and getting better. no problem with that.

Hi! I just registered in the forum :D just to say I've been trying this technique and it worked from the first time, no doubt about it, this is the most effective one. I stopped practicing for some days (I was tired of getting up so early) and tried again today, but I woke up for 90 mins and no lucidity, I remembered all the dreams though. I found out that stay awake for 60 minutes works better for me.
This is the best LD's community i have seen around, keep going with the good work :wink: See ya!

Another point for WBTB! Ive found out that 90 minutes works best for me when I've slept for only 4-5 hours, and I stay up for 60 minutes if Ive slept 5-6 hours. And longer than that, just a half hour, but I try to keep it between 4-5 hours...works best.

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This is the best LD's community i have seen around, keep going with the good work See ya![/b]

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It's quite an amazing community. Its amazing the success that comes out of here every day.

I cant get back to sleep with WBTB!

Today I tried WBTB but I couldn't get back to sleep like Sparky. But I guess I was thinking about it too much, also some things happened this morning and distractions came to my mind. Just relax and enjoy the ride :cooler:

Alas, it still didnt work tonight either. Just weird dreams, which I should've recognozied as dreams! :mad:


:cookiemonster:

whooa! this was a long thread...
now to my question: beeing up 90 minutes means 90 minutes less sleep and im a hardworking school kid. SO, should i go to sleep an hour or so earlier? how do you guys do?

Go to sleep early or do it on weekends. And you can stay up for just 30-60 minutes, 60 preffered. Just try what works for you. Tweakt he times and find out what works best for you.

Im going to try this tonight!

Good simple method. Just make sure you can fall back asleep. Some people find it hard to sleep after being awake for so long. I like to eat something small when I WBTB. The more you try to have a lucid, the harder it is to fall asleep.

Shall try this Friday night when i can afford to lose sleep, sounds promising as i normally WBTB after 6 hours, might explain why i and others find it difficult to get back to sleep.
Will post results after!

I read your tutorial last night and after my LD (only my third LD ever) collapsed, I was able to reenter it. Thanks. Had some strange things happen during reenter. I described them in my DJ LD#3 and 4.

WBTB works well for me. I stay awake only for about 20 minutes. I write my last dream down, go to the toilet, drink some water and exercise a bit. If I stay awake longer than 20 minutes, I cannot fall asleep then.

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Originally Posted by Zollage

Im going to try this tonight!

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Don't bump a 7 year old thread.

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Originally Posted by Flashdance

Don't bump a 7 year old thread.

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Dont make a pointless post -_-

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Originally Posted by Zollage

Dont make a pointless post -_-

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No, dont bump a 7 year old thread.

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Originally Posted by Flashdance

Don't bump a 7 year old thread.

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Originally Posted by Sidetracking

No, dont bump a 7 year old thread.

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I don't see why it matters. It is indeed an old thread, but three people have already commented back saying they were gonna try it, one saying they had some sort of success with it. So it's not doing any harm, Also, if it's such an old post, the more you comment it, the longer it lasts near the top of the postings, so commenting complaining about an old post being bumped, is worthless.
It's a nice simple tutorial, doesn't require 15 minutes of reading to get the point.