self-fulfilling prophecies

For a while I've tried to understand how attaining lucidity works, and the only thing I can think of is being sure or unsure of success.

I never used LD-methods, only "desire-induced" LDing, and I noticed that in most cases the less you care to LD, the more chances to succeed. At first it seemed strange, but it makes sense. It's as if caring creates an obstacle of fear to fail, which later works as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Fear of failure doesn't have to be strong and doesn't have to be a real fear, if it makes you worry a bit, it already creates a possible obstacle.

It's difficult to deal with this, to deceive your own thoughts, and I know of only one trick. I don't tell others about my LDs at all. I noticed that when I start telling others, there's a big chance that they'll cease to happen or become worse. I feel like others are expecting LDs from me, it creates pressure, as if I must have them. That's why there's no LD count in my signature and nobody can read my dream journal. An ever better decision would be not to write LDs down to avoid redundant excitement and not to dwell on them, but that's too much! :D

Maybe there are other ways to deal with it and tip the balance to the right side. Any ideas?

not writing in your dream journal = instant dry spell.

It's not really true. I haven't been writing down my LDs for a couple of years when I just started out LDing, it never occurred to me to write them down, and it didn't hinder me from having them. Later I had to start, because something needs to fill the vacuum if you don't talk about them. But it makes no big difference.

each of those things is likely only making a differance from your own perspective, when in reality its something more etheral. I know what your talking about, but from personal experience the only thing that impedes my process more than worrying about silly self fufilling prophesies is self fufilling prophesies. Actually the silly head games involved with society.

Neville, I think I have no idea what you're talking about...

No ideas? :(

sorry, your right. spend most of the day in a trance, so half what I say will likely come out as gibberish.

As you say. Well I guess this thread will have to die :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arutad

I never used LD-methods, only "desire-induced" LDing, and I noticed that in most cases the less you care to LD, the more chances to succeed. At first it seemed strange, but it makes sense. It's as if caring creates an obstacle of fear to fail, which later works as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Fear of failure doesn't have to be strong and doesn't have to be a real fear, if it makes you worry a bit, it already creates a possible obstacle.

---

For me, if I stop caring about dreams in general, I simply stop remembering them. Or they get boring. As far as not caring about lucids, I notice that I will get a bunch of them sometimes (usually right after I stop trying for them), but I won't be very motivated to do anything with them. Even if I had ideas before hand, the not caring winds up carrying over into the dreams themselves. So I do have to care to get good lucids, but it's caring in the sense of being enthusiastic and wanting to have a fun experience.

I see what you mean about fear of failure...though I don't have that problem myself because I don't know anyone outside of this forum who cares much one way or the other whether my dreams are lucid or not. I do have a simple way of thinking that keeps me from fearing letting myself down; I try to care almost as much about regular, non-lucid dreams as I do about lucid ones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nautilus

For me, if I stop caring about dreams in general, I simply stop remembering them. Or they get boring. As far as not caring about lucids, I notice that I will get a bunch of them sometimes (usually right after I stop trying for them), but I won't be very motivated to do anything with them.

---

Yes that's my experience too. But I circumvented this problem by actually wishing to have them. There was time when it was enough to think "I'll have a LD tonight" during the day, and it would happen. But if I didn't make a wish in this manner, it wouldn't happen. So I drew a conclusion that not caring is very good, because if you force yourself to decide to have a LD, your mind will provide no obstacle.

Unfortunately it turns out that too much of not caring is bad. I can't force myself to make a wish most of the time now, even though it still works when I manage to do it. And I'm not sure why it's happening. It feels like lucidity is exciting, but actually being lucid is too boring to care.

Quote:

---

So I do have to care to get good lucids, but it's caring in the sense of being enthusiastic and wanting to have a fun experience.

---

How do you care in the sense of being enthusiastic?

Quote:

---

I do have a simple way of thinking that keeps me from fearing letting myself down; I try to care almost as much about regular, non-lucid dreams as I do about lucid ones.

---

Haha, that's an interesting way of avoiding bad feelings :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arutad

Yes that's my experience too. But I circumvented this problem by actually wishing to have them. There was time when it was enough to think "I'll have a LD tonight" during the day, and it would happen. But if I didn't make a wish in this manner, it wouldn't happen. So I drew a conclusion that not caring is very good, because if you force yourself to decide to have a LD, your mind will provide no obstacle.

---

Oh, I think I might be understanding something new here, correct me if I'm wrong. Are you're saying that if you simply decide to have a lucid dream, it will happen because your mind is thinking of it as already a fact? So in that context, caring would be acting like an LD is only a possibility and then caring about whether it actually happens or not (which would then lead to the problem of feeling pressured, etc).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arutad

How do you care in the sense of being enthusiastic?

---

I mean being enthusiastic about the lucid dream itself...kind of like, "The next time I get a lucid dream it's going to be really cool because I can [insert plans]!"

It sounds like we both have the same problem of often being bored once lucidity is achieved. Previously I've gotten fun and interesting lucid dreams by expecting them to be that way... Maybe now that I'm taking the idea that lucids are fun for granted, and though I might be thinking that I'm going to have fun in my next lucid, it's only out of habit from previous experience, not from actually feeling excited about it currently. I do notice that in "boring" lucids, my thought process is something like, "Oh, I have six fingers, I must be dreaming..." *pause* "Apparently I'm supposed to find that amazing." :? It's sad, really. The exact opposite of those times I get lucid and I'm so happy I have to scramble frantically to calm down and stabilize the dream.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nautilus

Are you're saying that if you simply decide to have a lucid dream, it will happen because your mind is thinking of it as already a fact? So in that context, caring would be acting like an LD is only a possibility and then caring about whether it actually happens or not (which would then lead to the problem of feeling pressured, etc).

---

Something like that. Autosuggestion seems to fail if you doubt it, it's like dream control, what happens is what you expect.

Quote:

---

I mean being enthusiastic about the lucid dream itself...kind of like, "The next time I get a lucid dream it's going to be really cool because I can [insert plans]!"

---

And how do you keep up this enthusiasm, does it happen uncontrollably or you're trying to feel it?

Quote:

---

I do notice that in "boring" lucids, my thought process is something like, "Oh, I have six fingers, I must be dreaming..." *pause* "Apparently I'm supposed to find that amazing." :? It's sad, really. The exact opposite of those times I get lucid and I'm so happy I have to scramble frantically to calm down and stabilize the dream.

---

Hahaha :D

So do I understand you correctly, you have "boring" LDs from time to time, but the rest are still exciting? That's a little strange that your attitude is so different, I wonder what it depends on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arutad

And how do you keep up this enthusiasm, does it happen uncontrollably or you're trying to feel it?

So do I understand you correctly, you have "boring" LDs from time to time, but the rest are still exciting? That's a little strange that your attitude is so different, I wonder what it depends on.

---

Well, it definitely depends on how much I'm thinking about/paying attention to my dreams at the time. I'm rather strange in that I go through phases of being intensely interested in something for several weeks or months, then I slack off for a while as something else grabs my attention, then I go back to the subject(s) I was previously interested in with just as much motivation as before. It's just part of my personality that I like to focus on one thing at a time for relatively long stretches of time (maybe two or three things). As a result, I occasionally get two month long dry spells :|

The only thing that seems to help for me is to write down all my dreams, even the boring ones (or search my memory for old dreams to write down) and eventually it's like my subconscious takes the hint that I'm paying attention and I'll start getting really cool dreams again.