No More Doubts: What's A Lucid Dream?

hello!
I post this because as I can see, a lot of people questions involves if they were lucid or not.
I'm here to talk about False Lucid Dreams, Lucid Dreams, and, if it's necessary, Levels Of Lucidity.
I must let everyone who is confused, clear their doubts with this, and also, fix another problem, that is that sometimes, people post a thread like "was this a lucid dream?", and when it wasn't, other people answer "yes, it was a lucid dream because ****** ".
I don't want people to be excited of something that isn't happening, and I don't want them to follow a wrong path.
I'm not the best person to talk about this, I know there are people who are more experienced, so if you think you can add something...DO IT. It's important to post a definately post about what really lucid dreams are, and when one is lucid or not.
I'm not a guru on lucid dreaming, I just know a lot of things, but if I don't say these things, who is going to do it?

Lucid Dreams

"A lucid dream is one in where you are aware that you are dreaming"
that's it. We can answer all of our question with that. Really....can we?. I don't think so, I think we should add something. What means to be aware? What's awareness? Right now, your Consciousness is ON, or that's what you think. If your Consciousness is ON, then that means you know where you are, and why, and how...and....etc...
An example of being unaware could be : you are daydreaming, in fantasy land, unaware of what's happening around you, unaware that you are lost in thoughts...
So, A lucid dream is one in where you aware that you are dreaming..that means : you know that you are inside your mind, inside a dream, that your physical body is sleeping, that nothing around you is real, that nothing can harm you, that you are "god", you feel yourself like you generally do in Waking Life(I was going to say Real Life, but I know that dreams are part of your Real Life, they are not real, ok, but they are part of the "Realness")when you discover all of this in a dream, then a wave of happiness occur, because it's like being Neo in the Matrix when he UNDERSTOOD he was the chosen one.
It's an analogy. In "The Matrix", Morfeous says to him that he believes Neo is the chosen one(a character in your dreams says to you that he thinks you are dreaming), a lot of things happens next, finally Neo, becomes "lucid", becomes aware of everything, now he understand that he is The Chosen One, and he can do whatever he want, he is like GOD(in a dream, you, for some reason, become aware that you are dreaming)
That's a Lucid Dream, that's being lucid in a dream. For example, in a dream, you can say "oh I'm dreaming", and not become lucid, did you know that?, why? because you are still expecting for something.
When you are in dreams, if they are non-lucid, you are unaware, that means that your Consciousness is OFF.
If this Consciousness doesn't switch to ON, then, you are NOT lucid.
If these things happens, and the switch doesn't become ON, then these are not Lucid Dreams.

1)you see your surroundings and say, oh I'm dreaming of course, this is not real, and the dream continues.
2)you controlling all of the surroundings of the dream, because you are powerful
3)you controlling the surroundings of the dream, because you think is a dream
4)you do a RC, and you think you are dreaming, then you start to do a lot of things that involves what you always wanted to do.


False Lucid Dreams

BUT "believe", and "be", are two differents things. In Matrix, Neo starts to believe, before he gets shooted, that he is the Chosen One, but that not means too much, he starts to bend some rules, believing and believing, but not "Lucid" at the moment...(in a dream, you can "believe" you are dreaming, so you do a RC to confirm it and transform the Believe on Be)
Then, when he wakes up(after he is shooted) and understand everything, he is on the state of BE = BEING LUCID
That means his Consciousness turned ON. If this doesn't happen, then, no matter what, you will still being blind, in a world that you think you know.
A False Lucid Dream is defined by: A dream about you being lucid, but with the Consciousness OFF.
Because, you can't believe what you said, if you said "Oh , this is a dream, I know I am dreaming balhlah..." and still continue in the dream with the switch turned OFF, then it wasn't lucid.
Is only lucid if you are in the dream and .... "oh, this is a dream!(Consciousness ON) etc."
This Conciousness can't exactly be explained, only felt.
I had A LOT of FLD(False Lucid Dream) and they are very disturbing.. In these dreams, things like these happens a lot:

"you are in the dream, walking, and you have the feeling that you are dreaming, you do an RC to confirm it, and it fails(for example you pinch your nose and try to breath, and you breath! good), but for some reason, the Consciousness doesn't switch to ON, so, every action you do from this moment, will still be non-lucid, no matter what..for example,after that, I generally fly, see my surroundings a little more, I do dream goals..after all, is only a dream in where you think you are lucid, and you start to do the things that you think you will do in a lucid dream"

No matter what, if this Conciousness doesn't go ON, it will felt like "hey, it wasn't me" or "hey, was this a lucid dream?" or "hey, I don't know if I was lucid or not"... and so...
Another thing that happens in False Lucid Dreams is something like: "hey, this is a dream, I'm lucid, I know I'm a dreaming, I'm aware of everything, I know where is my physical body...!", is like trying to autoconvince one self....
An analogy could be something like :
John = Bob, you mother died, I'm really sorry (and this really happened)
Bob = no! NO ! she is not dead, she is alive, you don't understand anything!


After all,if the switch is not ON, then words,actions, everything, means NOTHING.
Is easy to recognize False Lucid Dreams,if you know. When these happens, the most important thing that happens is the moment you wake up: "hey! what happened, was that a lucid dream? I'm not sure!"
We can say that DOUBT is a crucial point. DOUBT = FALSE LUCID DREAM

Levels Of Lucidity

When this switch of Consciousness turns ON, then here appears the levels of lucidity.
I won't speak too much of these, because everybody experiment them in different ways.
I only can say that, if you are not too Lucid, it feels strange, like you can't remember some things of your waking life, like in your mind there are differents memories. Like if you first wake up in the morning....for example.
When you are very lucid, you feel the same awareness as in Waking Life (expecting that you are aware here, no?)


The Main Point

I'm going to say one more thing. When you wake up, after that dream, no matter what, the only person that can says if it was a lucid dream, is YOU, and nobody more.


bye!

I know you have a hard-on for 'false lucid dreams' as you call them, but the definition of a lucid dream is 'knowing that you are dreaming while dreaming'. Nothing more, nothing less. If you're aware that you're dreaming, then you're lucid dreaming. It's not a package deal complete with 100% understanding that your body is asleep, in a bed somewhere, nothing around you is real, there are no rules/consequences, you can summon or create anything youwant, etc. No: as long as you realize "This isn't reality- oh, it's because this is a dream," then you are lucid dreaming.

Lucid dreaming allows you the chance to understand the rest of those things, but doesn't imply that you do by default. Being fully aware of the implications of the fact that you're dreaming is icing on the awesome cake of lucidity. I'm sorry, but this is quite simply the definition of the term 'lucid dreaming' no matter how you feel about the ambiguity of it.

Dreams of lucid dreaming are just like any other non-lucid dream- you're not aware that you're dreaming, and you're dreaming about some concept.

Technically, Shift is right. However, she fails to understand the important message of this thread. I'm pretty sure we can all understand that a dream in which you are fully conscious is a very different and very recognizable phenomenon from regular dreaming. Many people call this phenomenon "lucid dreaming" incorrectly, but their message is still understood. In this case Mariano is explaining (although using "lucid dreaming" incorrectly) that there are dreams where you can know you are dreaming but not be conscious.

For instance, we could call the dreams where one is fully conscious, "conscious dreams". Mariano is explaining that although somebody may have a lucid dream, it will not necessarily be a conscious dream. I recommend you stop playing with definitions, because the message is rather easy to understand; you've simply locked your mind into thinking that lucid dreams are the extent of dreaming, where conscious dreams are equally important.

I see two problems here, one, it demands an high level of lucidity to count it as sucess, not much a problem, its the choice of each person anyway.
The real problem is the false lucid part, it doesn't matter how much lucid you may be, if there is the possibility of it being false, some people may think even the most lucid dream will be false, which would hurt newbies who aren't that good at the start (or newbies in general) and kill completely all the motivation. That, in my opinion, is an huge problem when trying to define LD.
Thats just a small part of it, but it will be unfortunate for the ones that get caught in it.
Other than that, I like the explaining.

Good points, Mariano. I think it was a rough draft. You could probably trim it down and say just as much.

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If this Consciousness doesn't switch to ON, then, you are NOT lucid...
We can say that DOUBT is a crucial point. DOUBT = FALSE LUCID DREAM

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I believe that is correct.

Definitions of Lucid Dreaming on the Web:
A lucid dream, also known as conscious dream, is a dream in which the sleeper is aware that he/she is dreaming.

A true experience should be undeniable. Much like the difference between watching a documentary and actually having experienced the events documented. You feel the experience resonating off of you. There is no doubt.

I agree that there are false lucid dreams. Because we understand the idea of Lucid Dreaming so well, we imagine we have one. But it's not the same.

There may also be crappy lucid dreams. My experience shows if I go to sleep kind of late, and wake up late, and if the lucid dreams occurs around 9-10 AM, I have very crappy lucid dreams. I know that I'm dreaming, but I feel very anxious, unsettled, without well-being. Probably due to oversleep or lack of sleep the previous night. They are still somewhat enjoyable, but nothing worth my time and patience to attain. My body and brain need good food, and good sleep, to have good lucid dreams. The best ones occur before the sun is up. The best ones are breathtaking experiences.

Newbies should not feel discouraged. Although it seems a solid wall, the wall of sleep is not too thick, and consciousness can break through.

You will know when it does. :)

man all i can say is that i loved to read this thread.

You explained in the perfect way what is an lucid dream...This will help so much the newbies...

shift : yeah, I agree with you in that part, maybe I put too much detail that weren't necessary

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that there are dreams where you can know you are dreaming but not be conscious.

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no, if you are not conscious, then you don't know you are dreaming, you just simply "try" to know you are dreaming...

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I see two problems here, one, it demands an high level of lucidity to count it as sucess, not much a problem, its the choice of each person anyway.

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maybe, but what I really tried to say is that when you are lucid, if you wake up, there is no doubt about what happened...

by the way, I don't want to hurt newbies, is good if they have FLD, but the only thing that they must do to transform that FLD into LD is very little = increase awareness ( on reality check, or in waking life)

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There may also be crappy lucid dreams. My experience shows if I go to sleep kind of late, and wake up late, and if the lucid dreams occurs around 9-10 AM, I have very crappy lucid dreams. I know that I'm dreaming, but I feel very anxious, unsettled, without well-being. Probably due to oversleep or lack of sleep the previous night. They are still somewhat enjoyable, but nothing worth my time and patience to attain. My body and brain need good food, and good sleep, to have good lucid dreams. The best ones occur before the sun is up. The best ones are breathtaking experiences.

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but these ARE lucid dreams, because you have NO DOUBT when you wake up, no matter if the clarity is horrible....

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man all i can say is that i loved to read this thread.

You explained in the perfect way what is an lucid dream...This will help so much the newbies...

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thank you..

I really like this talks.

bye!

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by the way, I don't want to hurt newbies, is good if they have FLD, but the only thing that they must do to transform that FLD into LD is very little = increase awareness ( on reality check, or in waking life)

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Yup, but the problem with that is, if you give them an high standard, it will cause these to happen in place of a LD because of placebo/autosuggestion, just like the myths with reading and pain and the like, and we don't want to start more myths for the newbies, do we?

I don't understood that...

It means: Subconcious of newbies will absorb the concept of a FLD and end up replying it when there is a chance of a LD, thus, ruining their LD experience.
Basically, a myth. Like the "you can't read, being excited wakes you, can't feel pain" in dreams, thing. Anyway, just recalled you speak spanish better, so if you want to keep discussing this, should be better of by PM lol (silly me...)

All I would say if people want to understand the concept of Lucid Dreaming and how far it can go; and this in that, read a book...

yeah I agree about the "switch", about waking up from a zombiefied delirium and becoming yourself. However you seem to mix that with levels of dream control. dream control VS levels of lucidity, is ineffable in my opinion- there are many guides about percentages, that kid on youtube made vids about the 5 "layers" of lucid dreaming- I think its much simpler- you are either lucid or not, you can have varying control and levels of consciousness that can vary from moment to moment.

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However you seem to mix that with levels of dream control

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but shift fixed it =P with her post.

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you are either lucid or not, you can have varying control and levels of consciousness that can vary from moment to moment.

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agree

hi, I made this graphic to aid the explanation of lucid dreaming.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1...osgscuioos.png

I don't think that the graphic needs more explanation, it's very easy.

I would like to add some things:

The definition of lucid dreaming is:
Lucid dreaming is becoming aware that you are dreaming.
and it's right, no matter how aware,clear or vivid...

also:

Lucidity and Conscious go in the same hand.
Non-lucid = Unconscious (auto-pilot mode)
Lucid = Conscious (you know...it's like waking life)

about Dream Control:

I would say that control doesn't mean too much in a dream, because if you are controlling the dream, you can do it in a conscious or in a unconscious(auto-pilot mode) way.

the point is that Dream Control is different from Lucid Dreaming, has nothing to do with it, only the Consciousness or Unconsciousness of the control you are doing...

there are non-lucid dreams without control
there are non-lucid dreams with control(you have unconscious control)
there are lucid dreams without control(of certain things, like flying, also walking, or talking...)
there are lucid dreams with control(have fun! this is conscious control)


Why add a new term called False Lucid Dream?
it's just a new term.
people say that new terms complicate things....
then if new terms complicate things, why do we call "nightmares" to bad dreams?
why don't we call them just bad dreams..?
is the same thing...

So...

a False Lucid Dream is just a non-lucid dream, with different feelings, equally as a vivid non-lucid dream, or a non-lucid nightmare , they are still non-lucid.
People just have to learn to differenciate "being aware of dreaming", and "dreaming that being aware of dreaming"
and that difference can only be felt, not too explained.....


bye,

Very nice post, mariano. Good point about non-lucid / unconcious dream control still possible.

I experienced both LDs and fake LDs. But my fake LDs most certainly didn't fall under the definition of lucidity as "knowing that you're dreaming". It was vice versa, "dreaming that you know".

For example, sometimes I have fake OBE-dreams that go like this:

Often I dream of myself lying on my bed (sometimes in a totally fake dreamt-up room) and an association comes up with WIlDing\OBEing, and I think "Oh I should OBE right now"! Then I dream about the process of falling asleep and OBEing, quite realistically, but without any lucidity whatsoever. Then I have a dream of myself being in an OBE-induced dream, "knowing" that I'm dreaming. But there's no real lucidity there and I'm doing some ridiculous things there, uncontrollable by myself just like in all normal dreams.

Such dreams easily differ from real lucid dreams, so I don't know why this topic is so popular...:eek:

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Originally Posted by Arutad

Such dreams easily differ from real lucid dreams, so I don't know why this topic is so popular...:eek:

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I have trouble wrapping my head around it as well.

It's just that sometimes a newbie may not realize the difference between an actual lucid and fake lucid dream.

must we close this thread?
to not confuse anymore?

but what about those newbies that ask "was this a lucid dream" ? what if it wasn't actually one?

must we close this thread?
to not confuse anymore?

but what about those newbies that ask "was this a lucid dream" ? what if it wasn't actually one?

EDIT: OMG, DOBLE POST =P! how??

It's already all over the place that 'if you know that you are dreaming, you are lucid dreaming, regardless of HOW lucid you are/how much dream logic is going on/how hazy your thinking is', and yet the boards are still inundated with 'was this lucid' threads or threads by newbies where experienced dreamers are saying, "Hey you didn't have control but you did know you were dreaming, you were having one" or "by the definition of 'lucid dreaming', you were having one." Newbies are going to keep asking these questions and people are going to keep answering them on an individual and individual-dream basis.

Something could be written and stickied in the newbie zone, but in all honestly it won't be read by the majority of members and people are still going to want to ask, to get that individual personal verification to this thing that they are new to. When people read about the ideal lucid dream, with 110% clarity, control, and conscious, logical thinking they expect this, so when their first lucids are hazy, or they lose lucidity, or they don't stabilize and are still running around following their dream thinking instead of pausing and collecting themselves mentally, they think that this is surely not what lucid dreaming is. Or, some of them have a dream about being lucid, which is so close to incredibly shitty quality lucids that they are confused. They realize it was just a dream, but they're wondering how they managed to dream about the topic without actually becoming lucidbecause they're not familiar enough with dreams to realize that dreaming you are lucid is not the same as being lucid that you are dreaming. They don't understand how easy it is to dream about becoming lucid, or the topic of lucidity, without actually becoming lucid. I think it seems like, to them, if you are thinking about lucid dreaming in a dream then you must actually realize at the time that you are dreaming, but this is not the case. It's very easy to think about the concept of lucid dreaming without realizing you are in a dream. Typically, as soon as one has experienced a lucid dream it is very easy to distinguish between the two.

They're going to keep asking, and asking, and asking, and older members are going to keep explaining. But it's not a question of 'true or false' lucid dreaming, it's a question of "was it just a dream about X, where you didn't consciously realize you were dreaming just like any other old non-lucid", or "were you in a dream and knew you were dreaming?"

ok shift! yes you are right!
but I'm sure when one have this dreams about one becoming lucid, is because one is not doing the reality checks right...
I'm sure is that.
the point is, whenever you reality check, try to bring the mind to that moment, becoming extremely aware, so that you don't have problems on dreams.
I'm sure that's the point, that's why one can have dreams of being lucid, because one is not enough aware on RL or in the Reality Check. so when this happens, when you are in the dream, the brain doesn't know what is exactly to be merely AWARE because it hasn't experienced it yet in a good manner.

that's my point.

bye!
thanks for colaboration.