mmh... it's sad to see what could be going on here...Quote:
Originally Posted by arby
mmh... it's sad to see what could be going on here...Quote:
Originally Posted by arby
Firstly the course is aimed at those new to lucid dreaming, so perhaps yes an experienced lucid dreamer could weed out the nonsense, but is it fair to be filling those who are new to the subjects minds with misinformation? obviously it isn't, and that is why so many of us find his work objectional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
As for "If it works, who cares how it works", well, ignorance may be bliss, but ignorance is also the foundations for wasted time, stupidity, dogma, bad science etc. etc.
If it works who cares how it works? I'll tell you who, people who really want to understand a subject, those who want to push forward, learn, grow, create... those people who want to develop the field of lucid dreaming. If you don't understand how something works, if you are building your knowledge on misinformation and ignorance, then you are burning bridges and creating a future where you will be unable to advance or learn, because your understanding is lacking.
Our entire world is built on the foundations of people who "wanted to know" rather than just accept things in ignorance, because it was those people who laid the foundations for computer technology, science, medicine, engineering, art etc. etc. etc.
I would like to know which parts of the free videos at least or not accurate. From the ones I saw he seems pretty dead on with the neurology parts at least. I could care a less about what terminology he uses and if he made it up or not. He came up with a way that works for him and decided to make a buck showing others HIS method so he can call it anything he wants and make up any charts and graphs he wants. More power to him. He isn't hurting anyone and it seems pretty helpful to me. Sounds like someones really pissed they didn't come up with a system to make a profit first and decided to trash the guy out of jealousy.
We have the same opinion :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreydc
I just watched his videos yesterday. =/
I thought they were alright and sounded valid, but I've read this forum and shifted my opinion of them quite a bit. I did find the 'selling' part, like the last four minutes of each video, to be rather annoying and sales-like, but I didn't care so much as for the content. The relaxation exercises in one video worked well for me, but everything else in my opinion was a load of BS. I didn't understand the diagrams, and he did wander around a lot without getting to the point. =/ Waste of my life.
I think it's really irritating to listen to him talk. He puts so much effort in some of the words. "THESE!! tricks are for everyone and can help you get your very... FIRST!!!!!! OBE." You can use that to plant sublimal messages into people but he seems retarded so I'm not that worried.
Funny how people criticize his techniques, yet I've seen entire threads on this website praising the effectiveness of his techniques. For example there is another thread on his sleep signal and everyone on this site saying how it works so well. There is a casual mention at the bottom of the thread thats its from the SaltCube website (i.e. Nicholas Newport). Who cares if he comes up with his own terms. Someone has to make the terms at some point (the originator of the technique would seem the most logical choice). No one is an expert anyway, on this site or otherwise. Unless you've done scientific studies who can say for sure they are an expert at anything. Perhaps it only works well for them. But far as I can tell, his methods work for people so who cares if he wants to charge money for them. I personally liked his videos and found his timer method to be invaluable. I agree its a lot of sales hype and maybe he should state that they worked for him rather than treated them as fact, but for the most part he goes by his and his customers experience. You have to start somewhere. Just my two cents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
Relate this to music.
You can play a song, who cares how it's structured?
You can never keep a key, never write your own music, never improvise, and you have to remember every note and timing if you don't know how it's structured.
I think the issue here is mainly that the guy charges money. Let's set aside whether or not his advice works for a minute. There are so many ways to learn to lucid dream. On this forum alone there are thousands of tips, tutorials, techniques, ect. You can get them all for FREE. You don't NEED to spend money to learn to lucid dream. If you want to spend money, that's your business, but it's still not such a bad thing to remind people that a guy is selling something that you can likely get for nothing.
Now getting back to the techniques themselves and a guy setting himself up as an expert. As it happens, we DO know of at least one true expert on lucid dreaming who does sell books: LaBerg. So if I were to recommend that a person spend money on information about lucid dreaming, I would definitely say that LaBerg is a much safer bet than some guy on youtube.
If the youtube guy's techniques work for someone, then great! Any way you get lucid. And we're all different--what works for one person might not work for the rest. So it doesn't hurt to try something new.
But I do agree with SpaceExplorer that it's a good idea to be critical about some random person trying to set themselves up as an expert on something, making up new terminology, and then trying to sell you something. That should raise some red flags for anything, not just lucid dreaming. These videos in particular seem to have a lot of false information when it comes to science and biology. So it's pretty obvious that while he may or may not have good tips for getting lucid, he is NOT an expert, especially where the science is concerned, and that is important to remember.
I'm aware of LaBerg and have one of his books, but he is old school and people got to move beyond that. LaBerg also has a very narrow view of lucid dreaming. If you accept everything he says, then you would also believe there is no such thing as an OBE, period. This may or may not be true, but I'd rather find out for myself whether the two experiences are one in the same. Point being, people got to look beyond what Laberg preaches and realize there is still much to be discovered. Besides that lucid dreaming is a niche per se, it will probably be ordinary people like you and me who don't have the resources to run scientific experiments that expand the field with no information. Medical companies aren't exactly lining up to do sleep studies on lucid dreamers. People can't just discredit everything Newport says because he is selling it. Is not selling a book another way to make money? Then I guess LaBerg could be discredited as well. I personally have not got Newport's sleep signal to work yet, but other people swear by it, so I think that there is probably something to it. The timer method he recommends I do find much easier than any of LaBerg techniques. I have a lucid dream almost every night using the timer, so it is definitely an easier approach the requires very little work. As others have noted it may not be the exact reasons that he believes it to be effective, but there is a science somewhere in there.
Honestly I found lots of stuff in his videos that I haven't seen anywhere, including this site. So that part of his sales pitch is true in my opinion. I just think people are discrediting possibly great techniques simply because this guy is selling them. I will happily post all of this techniques here for free and people can just try them for themselves and see. Don't say something he claims is false and unscientific, unless you yourself can show scientifically why he is wrong. I see commends like "well my personal experience is this". To me that doesn't disprove anything.
In summary, I don't see a problem with the guy saying, hey I have newer, better methods, if the methods work. No one has proved otherwise. If I had a complaint against the videos, I would say he should have tried to create at least a small structured study to verify that the phenomenon could be reproduced consistently in other people besides himself. Someone noted here or another site (cant remember) that its an issue of the mind's unconscious and conscious processes not communicating, rather than a body vs. mind communication thing (in reference to the sleep signal). To me this makes more sense and would reveal if true that there is validity to the technique, it just doesn't work that way for the reasons that he thinks it does. I think dreamviews is a great thing and a resource for people like me, but if we can interject his techniques and broaden our horizons, then why not. And if someone asked me where to start I would definitely say his videos over a book. Unfortunately he does focus too much of OBEs and doesn't tell you much about using the potential of lucid dreams, so you do need those other resources and sites like dreamviews.
I'm pretty sure there isn't a single method that isn't mentioned on DV.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofhypocrites
As for his videos, I did think they were convincing. But there were many contradictions to himself. They are also, imo, presented poorly when talking about their order. The videos seem to be randomly numbered. When I watched them I was confused by what I was supposed to already know because they just jumped from one thing to something else totally different. I also had trouble remembering anything because of this.
For most part I'd agree with spaceexplorer.
Here's my perspective on this. Several times, I have seen mention made of LaBerge as someone who really knows what he is talking about. Well, I got nothing from LaBerge's books. None of them helped me in the least. However, other people clearly have found some of his techniques useful. I actually have found a few useful tips in Newport's videos. However, the only thing that has ever really worked fairly often for me were Galantamine and DMAE supplements taken in the middle of the night.
So I agree with the "whatever works" sentiment. Newport may be overcharging for what he offers. However, if it works for you, it might be worth it. You just have to go with your gut instinct. Given the amount of time that one may possibly waste on techniques that might ultimately prove worthless, $20 wasted on an ineffective video is just part of the game. There just is no easy way to figure out what will work best for you individually.
I'm getting a little confused at this point: Are we trying to discredit the guy because of his phoniness or because we don't like the fact that he is selling it?
From what I can tell, the techniques he uses and promotes are not necessarily better than everyone elses'. Here at DV we seem to have a crap load of techniques that are created by independant people all the time. Their creators vary in their guarantees of effectiveness, but it really boils down to the individual. If Newport's techniques work for some, then good for them. However, I don't think he needs to be bashed for promoting this. Still, if you're worried about misinformation, don't be. Techniques can be named whatever they like by the creator, no matter how dumb. Take the CAN-WILD technique below; I think its a good tech. and a witty name, but it could be called something else entirely, yet the content would be the same. Heck, I've seen so many different WILD tips and techs that I'm surprised people don't come up with their own names for it each time. Its called freedom of speech. Now that covers my rant on his technique promotion and his (dumb? IDK) techniques...on to the real problem!
It seems to me the biggest concern should be his selling of his "techniques". Here are my opinions:
1. He is not breaking any laws, in fact, he's being quite an entrepeneur (did I spell that right?) by commercializing this...stuff.
2. He's not going to make any money or at least, not much. Sure he's being a bit of a salesman with his shouting and crap but he's advertising on Youtube for god's sake. Most intelligent people should research a product before purchasing it. If every consumer went and bought what they saw on TV, Charmen (the thing with the bears) would be the only toilet paper ever sold. This guy's also advertising on Youtube and I doubt most serious people will turn to it the very first time. If they were to type "lucid dreaming" into Google they'd most likely find this site on the first page. Sorry, i'm rambling, but I guess my real point is that this guy is getting little airtime as it is and by making a big stink about some wannabe Billy Mays/LaBerge then we're just giving him free publicitiy.
Really, I'm advocating social darwanism (except this'd be academic related) here: If they're dumb enough to go to Youtube their very first time, buy only into this guy without considering other, better, cheaper (pretty sure I signed up free) resources, then the consumer of his product is obviously dumb and doesn't deserve to contribute to the gene pool that is humanity. Also, stop giving the guy easy and free advertsing: seeing this thread at the top of the "attaining lucidity" forums every other day is essentially giving the guy a bill board right next to an interstate whereas before he was on a dirt road in the middle of no where. One last thing, telling somebody "not to" or "no" is the catnip of humanity's curiosity.
End Rant and Bad Spelling. :banana:
Sorry, the site flipped out and posted twice...or my bad...whatever :)
If your going to watch LDing videos i recomend these channels they arent misinformative and they helped me induce LDs when i was a noob about a year ago.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ReeceJones87 This channel has stuff that isn't about LDing also, so you have to look through the videos :D
http://www.youtube.com/user/stephenberlin
I personally wouldn't link anyone to a Youtube-based LD teacher, reccejones in particular. But that's just me, as I find that either they make up random crap (the LD Layers is a prime example) or they complicate things this and many other LD forums offer for free and have real sources for.
YouTube is just another forum for teaching, just like this website. Everyone acts like the info off here is expert advice and labratory tested. 99% of us post from personal experience. If people try his methods and they don't work, than so be it. Lot's of methods on this website that don't work for some people. His methods work for a LOT of people. There are several threads of people praising his techniques. Most people who post them don't give proper credit and try to market it as their own idea.
if you mean Reecejones than if his techniques work- awesome. His latest vids are a bit too "beyond dreaming" but his earlier LD vids are very inspirational and I enjoyed em. As for the LD layers - there was a similar thread on DV that went on from 0%-120% on the "level of consciousness" in an LD. I find em very subjective - sure sometimes you aren't as conscious as you'd like (though recently this hasn't happened to me - seems to have been prevalent when I was first starting out),Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofhypocrites
but dividing em into such specific categories is useless because we have no way of measuring our level of awareness in an LD and it can differ wildly from second to second.
As for lucidology - I'd run as far away from him as possible
The ones who have been here long enough know that everything here isn't concrete. I'm not even referring to LD methods, so I should've been clearer in that regard.
There's no denying the Youtube is a teaching resource, but I think it's safe to say that when it comes to Lucid Dreaming, it's a very poor one. When someone over-complicates Lucidity by saying there are layers among other things is when I call BS. Members wonder why newbies are so confused and/or misinformed when they join, but when they mention people like reece it all becomes clear. Space has already made a great argument againt Newport's videos. All I'm saying is that I'd link someone to The Lucidity Institute before Youtube's LD section.
haha only too true. i tend to ignore anything thats not hilarious or really cool on youtube because its probably made up or just someones opinion. thanks for pointing that out. im sure you helped some new people to lucid dreaming. should this be moved to the newbie section?Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceexplorer
When I was a newb the whole layer thing actualy helped me understand lucid dreaming. His videos inspired me to work hard at lucid dreaming and I had my first LD then 19 of them followed. The whole layer thing broke down LDing and helped me understand it. It did anything but confuse me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowy Egypt
I've never liked Lucidology. The idea that you can trick your body into falling asleep by simply not moving is a load of crap.
Check out this thread to find out why:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=81402
Spaceexplorer was always much more blunt than me. Don't waste your time or money. You will have much more success with the free information provided all over this forum.
I stopped into this topic and read the post in the other topic that Robot Butler linked to. Glad I saw this - until recently, Lucidology was the only other lucid dreaming site I was aware of. I know there are others, but that's the only one besides DV I know by name.
Again, glad I've been made aware of what's lying beneath the surface of all this. If I ever check it out, I'll keep a skeptical monocle over my eye.
it worked for me
So long as you didn't have to pay for the cost-free experience of lucid dreaming, you're going about it in the most efficient way. :D
But then again, so long as you get to that lucid dream, I'd say that puts you where you wanted to be. If the site can help, great. If DV is all it takes, great. If it takes a little cash for you to do it, great - you're helping two people, in a way. So long as you get there.