Trouble falling asleep when using FAT and VILD techniques

Whenever I try to fall asleep while maintaining concentration on a given concept, rhythm, image, etc, I inevitably end up lying awake until I give up and let my attention wander. As long as I'm consciously trying to accomplish something (i.e. maintaining a steady concentration), I can't slip into sleep. It's like some sort of warped Protestant work ethic mechanism-- no rest until the goal is fulfilled, and concentration somehow implies a goal. Needless to say, this makes using the FAT and VILD techniques well nigh impossible. I'm wondering if anyone else has or has had this problem and if there's anything I can do to solve it. Am I relegated to only using the non- focused-attention type techniques (such as WILD), or is there some happy-medium of concentration that I'm missing?

I have that problem all the time with WILD. About the only thing that works for me is to let my attention wander and try to catch myself just before I go under. Needless to say, I fail a lot of the time, but at least I am not depriving myself of too much sleep.

It is better to sleep and have a chance at a lucid dream than to remain awake for hours trying to induce.

Yeah, these type of techniques work or do not work dependant on the person who is trying. That is to say, whether they will work or not depends on the individual.

You can try using it during a short WBTB....

Something like setting your alarm for 5 in the morning (if you go to bed at midnight) and leaving it next to your bed. Then when it goes off you wake up, put alarm off and get the focus item while staying in your bed to keep you drowsy. Then perform the technique (it may be hard to bring yourself to do it under such drowsy conditions, but thats what you wanted right?) and it should be ten times easier to doze off with it.
Failing that, take some melatonin a short whole before bed time to help you sleep.

Oh, and all the techniques you tried are nearly impossible unless you go with a WBTB (see the tutorial on it) or a short wake up like the one mentioned above.

Hope that helps

Yea whats weird is, using those concentration techniques, you would have to be pulled into sleep. WBTB, helps that pull. IF you were able to somehow keep conscious during the first part of sleep, it would be completely against your sleep cycle, you would be forcing yourself to have REM first instead of N-REM, since N-REM doesn't support much visuals. You always want to try to go with the flow and not against it.

I've been able to fall asleep consciously in air planes, on the normal sleep cycle... But as soon as the dream starts, my eyes start to open, waking me up...

Strangely your eye lids, when relaxed, go upward instead of pushing down... making that near impossible.

In conclusion, do the techniques during a cat nap or after 5-6 hours of rest. (Times of REM sleep)

-Daniel

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Originally posted by Damascus
You can try using it during a short WBTB....

Something like setting your alarm for 5 in the morning (if you go to bed at midnight) and leaving it next to your bed. Then when it goes off you wake up, put alarm off and get the focus item while staying in your bed to keep you drowsy. Then perform the technique (it may be hard to bring yourself to do it under such drowsy conditions, but thats what you wanted right?) and it should be ten times easier to doze off with it.

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I gave that a shot last night, and was still too drowsy/out of it to concentrate on much. I managed to stay conscious for some of the HI, though, so I think I'll up the time awake by increments of 5 minutes each night until something works.

I know the feeling. I've had it once or twice.
And I also have problems with VILD
(BTW - whats FAT? Never heard of it...)

I'll describe what I do lately, as some thoughts for what to try if the other suggestions dont work for you :)

Lately, I get most of my wake induced lucid dreams out of SHILD (self hypnosis) ... not the dream induced form but rather a wake induced variation
Basically, I use the SH steps to go past all the hypnogogic imagery and distractions without losing lucidity. I find its not as difficult as eg. VILD wrt sleep, so perhaps its worth a shot.

The method I use takes some focus too, but is a little easier IMO (although it may take more than one attempt)
Click here for the method I use
(PS - apparently I'm wrong about the suggestions being in the first person... but it works for me)

Once I'm into that area of 'nothingness/black clear-headedness', I use a little technique that I think Seeker mentioned long ago
It involved imagining lying on a raft , in the ocean (eyes closed). Feel the waves, and the sensations. After you feel you're completely in tune with the sensations and environment, you 'allow' the raft to wash up on a beach, open your eyes, and take a look around

This works well for me, but the main difficulty I have found is that its imperative to go fairly deep before opening your eyes into the LD - otherwise you end up with what I call a 'thin' dream, where everything feels almost insubstantial, and close to waking up. Occasionally I can also feel my physical body a little - not such a good thing for the dream.

Just a thought - you'll find it also takes some focus, but seems better to me

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Originally posted by Placebo
(BTW - whats FAT? Never heard of it...)

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Dude, look in tutorials, FAT is my focus attention technique.

It involves using a physical item to focus your attention instead of focusing on nothing. For people who find it hard to concentrate.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Placebo
Lately, I get most of my wake induced lucid dreams out of SHILD (self hypnosis) ... not the dream induced form but rather a wake induced variation
Basically, I use the SH steps to go past all the hypnogogic imagery and distractions without losing lucidity. I find its not as difficult as eg. VILD wrt sleep, so perhaps its worth a shot.

The method I use takes some focus too, but is a little easier IMO (although it may take more than one attempt)
Click here for the method I use
(PS - apparently I'm wrong about the suggestions being in the first person... but it works for me)

Once I'm into that area of 'nothingness/black clear-headedness', I use a little technique that I think Seeker mentioned long ago
It involved imagining lying on a raft , in the ocean (eyes closed). Feel the waves, and the sensations. After you feel you're completely in tune with the sensations and environment, you 'allow' the raft to wash up on a beach, open your eyes, and take a look around

This works well for me, but the main difficulty I have found is that its imperative to go fairly deep before opening your eyes into the LD - otherwise you end up with what I call a 'thin' dream, where everything feels almost insubstantial, and close to waking up. Occasionally I can also feel my physical body a little - not such a good thing for the dream.

Just a thought - you'll find it also takes some focus, but seems better to me

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I gave the SH a shot this afternoon using the method you described-- not before a nap or anything, just to see if I could do it. If nothing else, it was incredibly relaxing. Is this a one or two-time procedure until the suggestions set, something you need to refresh every week or two, or something you do every time you want to LD? Also, did you LD after the first time you did it or did it take a few tries? I think I'll try Damascus' suggestion of a short (5-10 min) WBTB tonight, and see if the suggestions took.

I personally found that it took a few days to kick in, but it lasted about one to two weeks. Everyone differs I guess.
The dream induced suggestions preceded a run of 2 weeks where I had an average of 1 LD a day

Like I say, on the occasion that I do not get a lucid dream, I use the wake induced version. (thats if I wake up early enough)

Good luck with tonight :) (unless its morning for you ...)

Well, I was planning on trying it last night, but got a call around 11pm and ended up at a bachelorette party at a bar until 4 in the morning. The best laid plans of mice and men... Anyway, will definitely try tonight and post results.

What a great way to explain it ;

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Originally posted by Peregrinus
It's like some sort of warped Protestant work ethic mechanism-- no rest until the goal is fulfilled, and concentration somehow implies a goal.

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I know exactly how you feel. I guess it is how differant minds work.

Are you familiar with (HI), hynagogic imagagery? I don't believe this was mentioned.
While going to sleep relax and close your eyes, but try to maintain some awareness. HI does not really take all that much concentration. It manifests itself. All you have to do is maintain a state of awarness until it leads you into a lucid dream.
Even if HI does not produce an LD it can be a remarkable tool for creativity and problems.