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    Thread: Why it's hard to get to the Moon

    1. #151
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      Good point! The way we each perceive things are completely different to one another - so viewing the same thing could amount to two very different visual descriptions of the event as often crops up within Nomad's shared dreaming diary in comparison to Raven's. I also agree that there exists something special between Raven and Nomad where by, for the majority of us, we cannot just 'connect' to a random person on the internet without first trying to connect to them in waking reality first: we need to build up somekind of relationship first.
      Well we can, we just need to look a person nearby just like we do on websites like omegle and stuff .

    2. #152
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Excellent point... would that WakingNomad were still around to address it (or at least read it; he didn't address much when he was here).

      More good stuff here, but you may have left out one bit: Not only is only the basic structure shared (and keep in mind that individual perceptions of basic structures -- even something as iconic as the moon -- can vary wildly), but that astral internet you mention lacks an interface.

      In other words, yes, our thoughts might all be swimming around in the same aetheric ocean, but they are all doing different strokes. As individuals, we each form our thoughts independently and in a unique fashion, using a "program code" unlike any other, if I might do a little metaphor-mixing. So if someone senses those thoughts, there's an excellent chance that they'll be unable to translate the code of the thought form they perceived. As you note, it would be helpful to share dreams with someone you love, or better yet, someone you love and to whom you are related, as this might dramatically improve the chances of recognition thanks to a greater possibility of similar code.

      On top of that, and to continue the metaphor, the astral internet also lacks routers: Okay, I'll concede that we can project our dreams in thought-form packets, but how do those packets find their targets?

      Is it that we are projecting our dreams to everyone at once (like a radio broadcast) and only people who care pick up the signal? Maybe. But that would make the astral internet an almost overwhelmingly busy, noisy, place, I think. Just as the earthly internet must have a system to organize, filter, sort, and direct the billions of bits of information that otherwise would be just randomly thrown out there, never to be seen again, I think there must be some sort of router system for a dream-sharing internet. And if there is, how do I get an Astral IP address?

      On that note, I think WakingNomad's several threads like this were his attempt to define routers -- that moon of his might have been necessary, because he was seeking to define a thought-form node, or beacon, to which dreamers could navigate in their dream-sharing attempts. So, in light of this thread, Psionlink's concern seems valid, if not right on the mark.
      It is nothing new, that I personally very much doubt, dream-sharing is possible..
      But Sageous - I enjoyed reading your take on it in this post - loving the internet of the minds metaphor.

      Quote Originally Posted by floatinghead View Post
      Good point! The way we each perceive things are completely different to one another - so viewing the same thing could amount to two very different visual descriptions of the event as often crops up within Nomad's shared dreaming diary in comparison to Raven's. I also agree that there exists something special between Raven and Nomad where by, for the majority of us, we cannot just 'connect' to a random person on the internet without first trying to connect to them in waking reality first: we need to build up somekind of relationship first.

      A way around our different program codes/understanding of the visual language which I have been trying out - is to have an agreed place to meet within the dreaming. You see I made the same mistake at first when trying to share a dream and agreed to meet at 'the moon', but discovered after that me and my daughter were just visiting our own moon but not the SAME moon. So to counter this I took a real place in real life and cultivated it within our minds -a special tree which we often go to. To help define this place as the SAME place we were building within our minds we each made sure we are perceiving - emotionally, the tree and space around it in the same way. shortly before our first dream share at this tree we found a young bird who had landed outside of our house, he had been attacked by a cat. Unable to fly he died that evening. The next day we decided to bury it at our 'magic' tree and that following night we both dreamed of meeting at the tree (lucidly) and the bird (being the element which brought us together emotionally) appeared around my daughter and flew around her (which we both remembered and perceived.

      So my point is, if you can agree on the ground rules on what the place is you plan to meet, and then plan the next few excursions within the dreaming to make sure you will mutually be perceiving the same thing then you can successfully line up your individual 'program codes' so that they are in sync with one another. It's like turning the dial to find an am radio station - at first the signal may be weak and you only get parts of the radio program, but the more you tune in the better you get at finding that sweet spot!

      I don't think we need a router per se. Creating a portal pretty much does the same thing as a router - but again, a portal only appears that way because of perception - as long as a persons intent is strong enough I believe they will be able to travel to the correct destination.

      I think you are right on the ball here - I think allot of our dreams are a mixture of our own thoughts and other peoples thoughts leaking through - generally speaking though I do think we have somekind of (two way) 'firewall' in place for each of us - which allows us to both be protected from others dreams and also keeps us within our own dream space. For myself, when I first started to explore 'outside' my own dream area I came across quite a few barriers before I was able to move around unhindered. (I would be interested to hear if this is a common thing or not)
      ..
      I admire your determination and also this sort of building of a relation to your daughter floatinghead!

      What I just can´t wrap my mind around, is why you assume the much more complicated theory to understand, what is happening.
      Without a compelling need to jump over Occams Razor as I interpret it.
      What would make me want to jump it?

      Well - something like you two meeting at your tree and both - out of nowhere - not talking about birds or death at all before - would dream of a bird dying in your both´s dream - and both burying it together - and waking up and find this out.

      I still would need much more to jump - like this happening over and over - to dismiss the much more probable concept of you two being so close, that you know, how you feel and think, and what is on your minds - and psychologically tuning in to each other´s metaphors.

      Which you then take with you into your dreams - synchronicity of an extent like I described above would - at least if isolated - fall into this category as a first hypothesis always for me.

      Something good I find - I feel you do not have a cemented theory about it involving bending existing concepts of science or fixed religious notions to have a ready-made scheme for these assumptions.

      But all the more, I can´t help to - first of all emotionally fully understand the following - I felt this myself when I was younger - can´t help to assume, the sharing aspect has some value of it´s own for you - sort of making the wonderful reality, as I see it, even more wonderful like this.
      Like "I Want To Believe" - because it would be so nice.

      Don´t get me wrong - I really like you and reading you - just I wonder, if not somewhere hidden in the back of your mind there might be some doubt along the lines I argued this above..?

      If so - do you try to - for the sake of insight and experimentation - look at it all from this psychological real-life wave-length tuning point of view sometimes - and also talk to your daughter about it? How old is she by the way?

      Meaning to assume - really try to actually falsify your concept - that you might always be individually visiting your own tree or moon alone - but being so tuned to each other, that they can both be made to almost look and feel the same?

      Please do not feel criticised by this - oh well - as I think you are - I don´t think you will.




      Good that WakingNomad is not around any more as you say Sageous - I think, I would indeed try to get at him and criticize him a lot!!!
      Some of his posts I judge as right out dangerous and so very misleading, that there is no comparison to the fact that many are on the lookout to reach SP.




      I really agree to what shadowofwind had as a concern under point 4 - but here we are and with a good discussion I find.
      But the stuff that brought this thread up, really needs addressing, I find:
      I did not comment on the post of the "thread-resurrector" at all - but here we go tP97:

      Quote Originally Posted by tP97 View Post
      I was wondering , if anyone reaches the sun, will he burn down his dream body? If the sun destroys the body , will it regenerate in later dreams? or the person... dies?

      Also , are there dream artefacts and stuff in this world?
      No tP97 - I am more than just theorizing, when I say I am convinced, that the dream-world is in your head - it is not dangerous for your real body to burn down your dream body at all - neither it is to your dream-body - if you do not wake up from the experience, you will be able to build a new one in the same dream - but surely you will have one in the next dream!!
      Please do not believe this stuff!
      Rather look at this: Dream Control And Stabilization
      And happy fearless and unconstrained dreaming!


      If people read stuff like the OP - I am really worried for the following to occur:

      a) Them not learning to LD with real dream control and fearless
      b) Them right out being scared away from it
      c) Them not building up a sensible attitude towards life in general - especially when they are still kids - age-entry-baseline being 13 on here



      Edit: Oh yeah - some really important afterthought - if I would not have wanted to believe so much - I would have stopped having (at least semi-lucids) as a child as I did - and that would have been it.
      Like it was - I read Castaneda with true conviction - and thus came back to it.
      I can actually only be very thankful for this, if I am honest.
      But then - I hope one day it will be "normal" in as far, as you could get access easily from - maybe school even - or be directed to a place like this here, which has all the full spectrum to choose your world-understanding from!
      Last edited by StephL; 11-07-2013 at 03:44 PM.
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    3. #153
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      Stephl - you put everything so eloquently that it is impossible to get offended

      You are 100% right about me wanting to believe (like Mulder) it does make for a wonderful world where we can share our dreams together, but I also understand needing to be reserved and not have my mind made up with any fixed belief in either religion or science. All I can do is measure my own experiences, along with other peoples testimonies and to try and formulate a working hypothesis for what is being experienced. In my mind, I feel I am making some valuable discoveries - but of course, when it comes to dreams we can never be 100% certain what we are experiencing is real or false. What science has told us thus far, what it has proven is that it is simply a series chemicals and electric impulses which moves us - but science is always moving forward - always discovering new things - and so far with the hinted at hidden world within the string theory universe, along with relatively recent discoveries with quantum mechanics - we only know that the universe is allot more unpredictable and strange than we first perceived. It is at this point, without having the full amount of information in front of us, that we need to make our own decision on what it is we are and experiencing.

      Science has not discovered everything (yet), and religion disagrees with itself (if religion is looked upon as a single entity like science often is) so how we perceive this (limited) information is really here nor there since none of us can really know for certain

      The reason why I look into dreams for the answer is because I want to believe, but I do not let this shadow my theories and experiences - I try to judge each experience fairly and objectively. I agree with you that my experiences MAY be a product of coincidence and wishful thinking, but there are enough variables in place to keep me believing and continuing in my 'research' which will increase as I progress (I hope)

      Reading the shared journals of Nomad and Raven, and speaking to Raven extensively about her own experiences with shared dreaming has led me to believe (though not completely of course) that their experiences are beyond a doubt authentic, and simply put - if they can do it - so can we! (have you read their diary yet? What do you think of it?)

      My daughter is 8 by the way
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    4. #154
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      I wanted to also pick up on your point regarding not influencing kids at an early age. Consider this - if this stuff is real the.n . For the last few hundred years we ve betellg our kids that it is not possible, limiting there potential completly.
      Also consider that we have been telling our children about a man who visits them once a year and rides around on a magical sleigh and who happens to be friends with a giant rabbit, (or giant bells if you live in France)
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    5. #155
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      You are just as eloquent and your points are all valid!
      I actually think - being an agnostic is the most sensible stance in it all.
      Like I said - it could well be one day in the future I jump said razor myself!


      Quote Originally Posted by floatinghead View Post
      I wanted to also pick up on your point regarding not influencing kids at an early age. Consider this - if this stuff is real the.n . For the last few hundred years we ve betellg our kids that it is not possible, limiting there potential completly.
      Also consider that we have been telling our children about a man who visits them once a year and rides around on a magical sleigh and who happens to be friends with a giant rabbit, (or giant bells if you live in France)
      No - I actually did not mean you - what I read is not at all sounding dangerous to me - and as you say - almost every kid is - even if parents are not believing it themselves - brought up to a belief system, and mostly much more harmful than this could ever be, what you are doing.
      The Catholic Church with instilling the notion we are all born sinners and it´s anti-life propaganda (I know, I know - they use this the other way round when it comes to birth control - no - I mean damning sexuality like they do..) comes to mind foremost.
      No - Santa is okay and so is this sort of really great bonding that seems to be going on with your daughter.

      What I meant was more WN, who on several occasions seemingly hems in people in their freedom with proclaiming dreams - and actual reality too - being full of threatening beings of such a bizarre mixture - basically everything thought up ever on that account being out to get you - seems dangerous to me.
      Like the post of tP97, who seemingly took this thread as a hint at being in mortal danger in his or her dreams.
      This simply can´t be good.

      If it´s the birth-date - that would be 16 years - not a kid any more - but in my view also not at an age, where there has been enough of a level-headed world-view stabilized in most - me definitively included - and into my early 20s neither, to be honest.

      I will check out the diary - but my suspicion goes that he has a very charismatic grasp on influencing other people - to what end I have not yet an opinion.
      But I came about multiple contradictions in his posts already.
      If I feel like it, I might hunt them down in this thread and other posts I read.
      Good question why I read them - bit of an attitude of sensation seeking to shake my head, if I am honest, and a bit of a drive to try and put up a counter-weight.

      Good example is him posing, it would be difficult to fly to the moon, because of the poor wyrms and their holes being hurt by "Evil Force" and thus not passable*.
      Does that not strike as trying to hold others away from gaining true dream-control - scaring people - possibly to heighten a sense of self-importance?

      Right - shutting up now about him, before I really put myself into the picture - I might be doing him an injustice by suspecting malicious motives.
      But I might also decide to use my time differently.


      Really - you are one of the very few open-minded believers - of which here seem to be over-proportionally many - this I honestly find great!
      I try to be an open-minded agnostic - but got to admit I lean towards what is termed atheistic.

      *Edit: might have to read through it all once more not to misinterpret something here - but that was the gist, I got.
      Last edited by StephL; 11-07-2013 at 06:24 PM.
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    6. #156
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      I will say for myself, I'm quite skeptic about this stuff too. But that is not stopping me to try it again and again. I will be skeptic only till I will have MY conclusive positive results. And when I'm concentrating for LD or AP I erase all skeptic thought. Only being now and here and objective remains.

      I read some of raven and nomad experiences... they are little hard to be understand... But my own experiences are not better written down, so it doesn't matter. Also, I don't write dream journal. I can recall dream vividly, if it has some importance for me. And lucid dreams are hard to forget. I tried a few times to start write, but I ended a few days after start again.

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      I have a feeling I am not the only one who 'wants to believe' otherwise you would not frequent the 'weird' area of DV

      I was thinking about what you said about occam's razor - I actually think the simplest explanation also lies with what your personal belief system is (and science is still a belief system to a point) Would it really be the simplest explanation to say that two people having the same dream is merely a coincidence when the odds of this happening would be staggering?

      Another interesting point is that 1 in 1000 claims to have had a shared dream at some point. That is a pretty big number!

      Anyway, regarding Nomad - I think you have him a little wrong. He LIKES to see himself as somekind of Castaneda - but in reality he is a geek with a passion (just like any other geek!)

      Here's the thing: Imagine you discover the earth is round, and you KNOW it without a shadow of a doubt - you try and tell people what you have discovered, what you have seen with your own eyes and you even had someone there with you to back this claim up - can you imagine how frustrating it would be for people just to shrug and keep walking? NOT to believe you? This is the reason why he is so determined here. Raven on the other hand, she does not feel the need to try and convince people, she knows it is true and that is good enough for her.

      Nomad may come across as somekind of advanced dreamer (which he is by all accounts) but Raven has always been the more advanced dreamer, and she is easier to understand than Nomad. Nomad talks primarily in symbolism, he explains to us what HE has perceived but admits that is only his perception - the whole wyrm story IS true I am sure, but it does not mean that it happened this way, it is just the way it was explained to him. Much in the same way that all religions talk about the same thing but are just perceived through a different lens. I believe, at it's core the dreaming is made up of energy - but the way we interpret this, to understand it is to give it somekind of form, a visual reference that we can understand.

      Nomad only posted this thread up about the trouble getting to the moon AFTER he had so many people trying to tell him that they were finding it difficult to get there - and so in order to find out why this was he discovered this explanation.

      Before you think I am some kind of blind follower to Nomad I'd also like to point out that I think he can be a bit of an obnoxious dick at times

      Anyway, you really cannot make any kind of true opinion until you have read his shared dreaming diary. It really is something extraordinary and was the very thing that made me consider dreaming in a completely different way. When I first read it I thought it was somekind of joke, then I thought it was a weird story that they created together in order to create a kind of 'fan fiction' that people would read. The more I read, the more I questioned (and hounded Raven Knight for the last few years) the more I realised that this was NOT a joke, this was real. these two people, who had previously never met were having full blown shared dreams and they were reporting the story, what they saw and the very conversations they were having in a dream diary before discussing it with one another - THIS changed everything to me.

      Still, I doubted, but - I believed enough to do it myself - and above all - that is the only thing Nomad ever asks of people : to go and try it for ourselves and SEE.

      Now imagine, open up your mind, open up your heart and SEE what this could mean. Don't hold back, just imagine if this was possible - are you excited yet? You should be - because, put simply - this is the most amazing thing you would ever get to experience.

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      What I can´t help to wonder - how can you manage to not be afraid of all this, while believing it.

      Like - example - when I had my first lucid - I believed in this plane being populated by truly dangerous beings.
      And since it felt so real - more than real actually - much more "realistic" - well - I thought it a very sensible decision to get the heck out of there and not ever come back.

      Except when I maybe had reached something like true competence as - for lack of a better word - a witch - being able to fight, if necessary.
      How can one feel this competence - while not even being sure, if it is all true?

      It scared the living daylights out of me from that perspective.
      How can you feel safe?

      Oh yeah - like I said - I might be unfair in my assumptions indeed - do you have a link to this diary?
      Last edited by StephL; 11-07-2013 at 09:02 PM. Reason: typo
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      Floatinghead:

      Though I would like very much for WakingNomad and Raven Knight's experience to be true, if only for the many things it would add to the very nature of consciousness and the physical world (i.e., consciousness transcends the body, faster-than-light communication would exist, there is some sort of astral "web" that allows minds to find each other and understand each other, etc.), keep in mind that their story could very easily be faked. The Internet allows creative people to claim the most amazing things most convincingly, especially when their audience wants to believe what they say. I'm not saying that Nomad and Raven faked anything, or that they believe anything they've shared to be false at all... how could I know? What I am saying is that if two people felt like empowering themselves by creating an elaborate hoax on these forums, doing so would not be difficult.

      Again, I too want to believe, and have had more than my share of moments that I could and often do chalk up to shared dreaming. But, as Nomad himself has said, to base your belief in something like this purely on what someone else tells you is a fairly risky business. Keep in mind that one in a 1,000 people say a lot of things (like there are aliens among us, the rapture is coming, leprechauns and the Starship Enterprise are real, Elvis is alive, Justin Bieber can sing, and so much more); humans are wont to make claims, and claims make for a lousy statistical base.

      Also, for what it's worth, in my opinion there are probably more amazing things to experience than encountering another person in your dreams. Sorry, not probably, definitely. Don't sell the other stuff short.

      You don't seem the oversensitive type, Floatinghead, but just in case: I am not saying this to piss you off, or even argue with you about shared dreaming (I honestly don't care enough about it to do so -- I have to talk to enough people in waking life, I sort of like to have dream time to myself). I'm just offering a caveat to you and others here: If it is real, shared dreaming would by its nature be a very, very huge thing. Yet to date every ounce of its proof lies solely in what people tell you to accept on faith. Enjoy the stories, but, until the International Directory of Shared Dreaming is published, with specific log-in instructions, you might do best to rely on your own experience, and judge even that with some skepticism.

      I just thought this needed to be said, especially given the recent revival of two WakingNomad threads. I hope you understand where I'm coming from here.
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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      What I can´t help to wonder - how can you manage to not be afraid of all this, while believing it.
      With two powerful tools: self-awareness, and the confidence that your home base -- your sleeping body -- is safe, sound, and accessible with a thought, no matter how scary the demons are or strange the new planes might be. In other words, believe in your Self as strongly as the rest of the stuff, and nothing can ever hurt you.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Floatinghead:

      Though I would like very much for WakingNomad and Raven Knight's experience to be true, if only for the many things it would add to the very nature of consciousness and the physical world (i.e., consciousness transcends the body, faster-than-light communication would exist, there is some sort of astral "web" that allows minds to find each other and understand each other, etc.), keep in mind that their story could very easily be faked. The Internet allows creative people to claim the most amazing things most convincingly, especially when their audience wants to believe what they say. I'm not saying that Nomad and Raven faked anything, or that they believe anything they've shared to be false at all... how could I know? What I am saying is that if two people felt like empowering themselves by creating an elaborate hoax on these forums, doing so would not be difficult.

      Again, I too want to believe, and have had more than my share of moments that I could and often do chalk up to shared dreaming. But, as Nomad himself has said, to base your belief in something like this purely on what someone else tells you is a fairly risky business. Keep in mind that one in a 1,000 people say a lot of things (like there are aliens among us, the rapture is coming, leprechauns and the Starship Enterprise are real, Elvis is alive, Justin Bieber can sing, and so much more); humans are wont to make claims, and claims make for a lousy statistical base.

      Also, for what it's worth, in my opinion there are probably more amazing things to experience than encountering another person in your dreams. Sorry, not probably, definitely. Don't sell the other stuff short.

      You don't seem the oversensitive type, Floatinghead, but just in case: I am not saying this to piss you off, or even argue with you about shared dreaming (I honestly don't care enough about it to do so -- I have to talk to enough people in waking life, I sort of like to have dream time to myself). I'm just offering a caveat to you and others here: If it is real, shared dreaming would by its nature be a very, very huge thing. Yet to date every ounce of its proof lies solely in what people tell you to accept on faith. Enjoy the stories, but, until the International Directory of Shared Dreaming is published, with specific log-in instructions, you might do best to rely on your own experience, and judge even that with some skepticism.

      I just thought this needed to be said, especially given the recent revival of two WakingNomad threads. I hope you understand where I'm coming from here.
      I agree with you 100% - everything that you have just said. I was EXTREMELY skeptical at first, and I still am to a certain extent (none of us should believe anything 100%) but talking to these people, to Raven in particular - there are things that are said, things that are known (that are confirmed through personal experience) , you can just tell after a while. But I agree, people in general can be VERY manipulative and cunning to some crazy lengths that you cannot take someones word for it. BUT, through research and communication it was enough for me to CONSIDER this to be a possibility. It was enough for me to research and try this myself. I want to believe.

      You see, what you said about 'waiting until the International Directory of Shared Dreaming is published' well that will not happen unless people actually go ahead and make this a more common occurrence. Lucid dreaming would still be another 'belief' if it wasn't for pioneers like stephen laberge bringing it to the fore front. Now it is a proven concept (although my wife still doesn't even accept THAT as a real thing - lol) It us up to us dreamers to prove this is possible time and time again, only until there is an overwhelming surge of shared dreaming being documented will science finally take notice and produce this 'directory of shared dreaming' .

      At the moment shared dreaming , like lucid dreaming did before, lies only in the claims of people - but given enough momentum, (if real) it could be easily proven (even easier than lucid dreaming originally was!)

      Also, just so you don't think I am blindly following what others have said - so far I have had 3 successful shared dreams. In the second dream we both dreamt of (both lucid) meeting at our tree, creating a portal and going to 'cowboy land' in which we both recall shooting our guns and finding that they did not work!
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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      What I can´t help to wonder - how can you manage to not be afraid of all this, while believing it.

      Like - example - when I had my first lucid - I believed in this plane being populated by truly dangerous beings.
      And since it felt so real - more than real actually - much more "realistic" - well - I thought it a very sensible decision to get the heck out of there and not ever come back.

      Except when I maybe had reached something like true competence as - for lack of a better word - a witch - being able to fight, if necessary.
      How can one feel this competence - while not even being sure, if it is all true?

      It scared the living daylights out of me from that perspective.
      How can you feel safe?

      Oh yeah - like I said - I might be unfair in my assumptions indeed - do you have a link to this diary?
      whether you believe it is happening inside your own head or are facing external forces (which I think ultimately are the same thing) we all need to face our demons, to confront them - whatever they are. If you believe it is happening inside your head - then there is nothing to be afraid of, if you believe that you are facing something else - then you believe in the soul and THAT can never be harmed (only manipulated)

    13. #163
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      You gave me a couple more thoughts, Floatinghead, that I'll try to keep as short and unobtrusive as possible, because I can already feel WakingNomad's spirit pressure closing in around me...

      Quote Originally Posted by floatinghead View Post
      You see, what you said about 'waiting until the International Directory of Shared Dreaming is published' well that will not happen unless people actually go ahead and make this a more common occurrence. Lucid dreaming would still be another 'belief' if it wasn't for pioneers like stephen laberge bringing it to the fore front. Now it is a proven concept (although my wife still doesn't even accept THAT as a real thing - lol) It us up to us dreamers to prove this is possible time and time again, only until there is an overwhelming surge of shared dreaming being documented will science finally take notice and produce this 'directory of shared dreaming' .
      The trouble with this is that lucid dreaming and dream sharing are two very different things, for two very important reasons.

      First, LD'ing does not require new chapters to be written in the physics books. Yes, LD'ing requires a paradoxical and arguably unnatural act of being awake while you are asleep, but it still works inside your head, and does so without requiring major changes in your physiology. Shared-dreaming must include things like instant communication without regard for time or space, and a method for forming thoughts whose energy can be transmitted to some other specific place and then be received, downloaded, and understood by the the mind of the recipient, which challenges far more than just physiology. Also, my quip about that directory wasn't so much to say that we needed to socially establish shared-dreaming to the level LD'ing currently enjoys, but that that directory (and routing-system) literally must exist before practical shared-dreaming can ever really happen on a "common occurrence" basis, or else dream-sharers would have no way to find each other (with precious few exceptions, perhaps, like bond-sharing people such as you and your daughter).

      Second, practical LD'ing has been around for a very long time, and, since it was used as a tool for centuries by various shaman, yogis, and those Tibetan monks, it was pretty much a given in the world of dreamers long before LaBerge et al entered the scene (indeed, I for one was LD'ing steadily for years before EWOLD appeared). Yes, the idea of shared dreaming has been around forever too, but it tended to reside more in the realms of mysticism and magic than as a usable tool, and its validity has always existed solely in the word of the dream-sharer.

      So, I think that, if dream-sharing were the same sort of tool, used regularly by as many people as LD'ing is, then we would be living in a very different world, with much thicker physics texts.

      I think this stuff is significant, and worth the risk of repeating.

      At the moment shared dreaming , like lucid dreaming did before, lies only in the claims of people - but given enough momentum, (if real) it could be easily proven (even easier than lucid dreaming originally was!)
      I have always had a real problem with this. Why is it that dream-sharing has never been proven? Since it has a built-in witness (your dream-sharing partner), you'd think it would be a snap to prove. And yet it hasn't been. [And yes, Shadowofwind, if you're out there, I understand that dream-sharing as you understand it would be very difficult to prove, but I'm talking here about the simple, classic, "two people go to sleep and intentionally share a dream-space together" definition.]

      It is impressive that you've shared dreams with your daughter, Floatinghead, and I won't question your account of them. But a good solid skeptic who cares to would likely be able to offer you a list of more likely phenomena you two may have encountered, from coincidence to parallel day residue to telepathy to two people recalling their dreams in the most exciting way possible to something else altogether -- but still a "something" that doesn't challenge what we know of space, time, consciousness, brain physiology, and energy physics. [and no, that was not me using passive-aggression to question your accounts )

      Finally, remember that I have no philosophical problem with the concept of dream-sharing, I feel I've been there myself more than once, and I would welcome the revolutionary knowledge that would accompany dream-sharing's practical entry into general human experience. I'm just putting this stuff out there because it seemed the gesture needed to be made... it is far more important to me that people learn to prove stuff like this for themselves, without relying solely on what they are told than it is to prove it, say, scientifically. So a bit of information from the "other side" seemed appropriate.

      Okay, I'll stop now, before Nomad spots the heresies.
      Last edited by Sageous; 11-08-2013 at 05:25 AM.
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      Well yes...

      StephL I thought about population in my dreams, astral plane and so on...
      It is strange In normal dreams there is less beings than in real life.
      In my LD I have even less populated surrounding.
      AP- there is really big problem to find someone. It is easy to say, find some master, guide... But where when there is nearly nobody? I'm crying loudly as I can, and nobody. Then there is thing with my inner voice, sometimes I hear it clearly while in astral(Once I stood from my body to dark as usual, but darkness, total darkness remained. I went to turn lights on only to find they doesn't function. I saw only dim line in bulb, but otherwise was total darkness still. Then I heard my inner voice stating clearly. There is darkness. But there is LIGHT! You have to learn to see it!!! And I tried and I saw. Everything did have its inner light.). Sometimes I only feel my inner voice. Maybe that is my guide...
      In Mental dimension I had seen no one till now. Only really paradise like surrounding, full of plant life... rivers... everything in pristine condition. Everything sparkling. even air. Everything reeks of life, energy and peace. Till now I didn't find there any being, any animal...
      In Budhic dimension I was in grayish white space. It was grayish only because I saw a stars all around... My inner voice said through feelings that that are other people. I even saw myself as such star. Everything was submerged into feeling of unconditional LOVE. Spherical vision of surrounding... It is still strange for me that I was not confused by sensory input .

      Sageous why do you thing that it is unnatural to know you are dreaming? I have thoughts by every dream. It is not much different to know about dreaming then. As for proofing - I'm scientist (PhD in material chemistry) so I know a little about scientific process. LD are subjective, even if there could be in cases of points of contact in possibly shared dream... How would you measure that? It will fall to beliefs of dreamers dreaming seemingly the same dream. Therefore I try to find at least my subjective proofs. It would be scientifically proved if there would be objective proofs. Therefore I can only say that I believe in possibility, and Nomad, Raven, etc. could experience something that seems to be real thing. Skepticism is good. Wrong is to not prove to yourself again and again your facts and be fanatic in belief that your facts are inviolable.

      Floatinghead I read some of that dream journals... There is so much fight in them... That is what I don't understand. I have no need for fight, I needed to use force only few times. Even then it was not necessary. In dreams there is no need for fight. You can be what you want to be, in certain boundaries. I remember one LD where I was caught by some rioters or terrorists, who wanted something of government. I was confined to some school together with other people(strangers). I knew we are going to die. I was calm. Others were in great distress. I simply was there sitting and disinterestedly observed peoples emotion. Then I thought to go away... I pulled electric lines and knocked out electricity in whole city. I walked away directly between that terrorist. Or other LD where there was man who wanted to kill me. He was angry on me that I'm conscious. He shot me with pistol... many bullets. I started to die. It was tiring. Then I said to myself I don't want to feel that and I felt energy inside me. Energy strongly rose and I was again in full health. He started to cut me with knife... I was uninterested by it and went away through closest wall. He couldn't go after me. Why I have to fight? Unnecessary. My inner peace, and voice are my greatest assets. No need for violence. Even that method of yours, how to make connection (shaking or shouting on dream people) seems to me a little bit extreme, but maybe it is necessary to arise attention of other dreamer, to make him lucid enough and to comunicate.
      Last edited by Psionik; 11-08-2013 at 10:32 AM.
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    15. #165
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      Like the post of tP97, who seemingly took this thread as a hint at being in mortal danger in his or her dreams.
      Well, I was was just wondering about things at the time , I did not consider it a serious threat :p

      I try to be an open-minded agnostic - but got to admit I lean towards what is termed atheistic.
      Well, its the same with me , I am an atheist who is a bit bent towards agnosticity since we don't know a lot things and there are things even we cant understand. I'd say the right attitude should be - Form your views but be reading to understand and analyse further. Then, it shouldn't matter wether you're a theist or an atheist at the moment

      I will say for myself, I'm quite skeptic about this stuff too. But that is not stopping me to try it again and again. I will be skeptic only till I will have MY conclusive positive results. And when I'm concentrating for LD or AP I erase all skeptic thought. Only being now and here and objective remains.
      Its same with me, I feel that so many experiences that they have given cannot be forged but at the same time some of them are too silly to be true , so I would try it myself . Though I think that I have had 2 unintended shared dreams , one was about me and a friend running from an earthquake . When I told my friend about it , he said that he remembered it too. The second one is my last DJ. I am willing to try it because I have heard about this and other psychic stuff a lot , it is even said that its knowledge has been there from the egyption period. . than that also , I feel that even if these things are forged , they can give a good inspiration for my fantasy novel which had been based on something similar (It was about a world which a scientist created by weaving dream worlds together.)

      I have a feeling I am not the only one who 'wants to believe'
      I really want to believe , in it , reincarnation , god and other psychic stuff too XD


      Here's the thing: Imagine you discover the earth is round, and you KNOW it without a shadow of a doubt - you try and tell people what you have discovered, what you have seen with your own eyes and you even had someone there with you to back this claim up - can you imagine how frustrating it would be for people just to shrug and keep walking? NOT to believe you? This is the reason why he is so determined here. Raven on the other hand, she does not feel the need to try and convince people, she knows it is true and that is good enough for her.
      Thats.. a nice comparision

      What I can´t help to wonder - how can you manage to not be afraid of all this, while believing it.

      Like - example - when I had my first lucid - I believed in this plane being populated by truly dangerous beings.
      And since it felt so real - more than real actually - much more "realistic" - well - I thought it a very sensible decision to get the heck out of there and not ever come back.

      Except when I maybe had reached something like true competence as - for lack of a better word - a witch - being able to fight, if necessary.
      How can one feel this competence - while not even being sure, if it is all true?

      It scared the living daylights out of me from that perspective.
      How can you feel safe?

      Oh yeah - like I said - I might be unfair in my assumptions indeed - do you have a link to this diary?
      Afraid ? are you kidding me? Why would someone be afraid of such an awesome concept being real? I would be crying from happiness if this concept turns out to be real XD ! It would be exactly like the world i was writing about in my novel , and believe me it will be the true form of awesomeness XD

      I have always had a real problem with this. Why is it that dream-sharing has never been proven? Since it has a built-in witness (your dream-sharing partner), you'd think it would be a snap to prove. And yet it hasn't been. [And yes, Shadowofwind, if you're out there, I understand that dream-sharing as you understand it would be very difficult to prove, but I'm talking here about the simple, classic, "two people go to sleep and intentionally share a dream-space together" definition.]
      Well , nomad posted a thread on this , refer to that . The main reason can be- It is not as widely known as LD

      Floatinghead I read some of that dream journals... There is so much fight in them... That is what I don't understand. I have no need for fight, I needed to use force only few times. Even then it was not necessary. In dreams there is no need for fight. You can be what you want to be, in certain boundaries. I remember one LD where I was caught by some rioters or terrorists, who wanted something of government. I was confined to some school together with other people(strangers). I knew we are going to die. I was calm. Others were in great distress. I simply was there sitting and disinterestedly observed peoples emotion. Then I thought to go away... I pulled electric lines and knocked out electricity in whole city. I walked away directly between that terrorist. Or other LD where there was man who wanted to kill me. He was angry on me that I'm conscious. He shot me with pistol... many bullets. I started to die. It was tiring. Then I said to myself I don't want to feel that and I felt energy inside me. Energy strongly rose and I was again in full health. He started to cut me with knife... I was uninterested by it and went away through closest wall. He couldn't go after me. Why I have to fight? Unnecessary. My inner peace, and voice are my greatest assets. No need for violence. Even that method of yours, how to make connection (shaking or shouting on dream people) seems to me a little bit extreme, but maybe it is necessary to arise attention of other dreamer, to make him lucid enough and to comunicate.
      lol, we like fighting in dreams because its fun to fly , through energy waves and do all other fantasy stuff XD

    16. #166
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      Stephl,
      Well I do fear one thing , that is if I am not being able to distinguish btw reality and dreaming . What I get reckless in reality? Is this possible?
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      Psionik:

      put simply - we reap what we sew. Are you familiar with the theory of the law of attraction? What you wish and expect to encounter within the astral/dreaming will manifest itself. If you wish to fight the demons then that is what you will encounter, but if you prefer to encounter only peaceful entities then they will be drawn to you. I think the only reason bad forms will be attracted to you would be if you entered the dreaming/astral with negative thoughts on your mind. Enter with love and you will only attract love.

      Sageous:

      The trouble with this is that lucid dreaming and dream sharing are two very different things, for two very important reasons.

      First, LD'ing does not require new chapters to be written in the physics books. Yes, LD'ing requires a paradoxical and arguably unnatural act of being awake while you are asleep, but it still works inside your head, and does so without requiring major changes in your physiology. Shared-dreaming must include things like instant communication without regard for time or space, and a method for forming thoughts whose energy can be transmitted to some other specific place and then be received, downloaded, and understood by the the mind of the recipient, which challenges far more than just physiology. Also, my quip about that directory wasn't so much to say that we needed to socially establish shared-dreaming to the level LD'ing currently enjoys, but that that directory (and routing-system) literally must exist before practical shared-dreaming can ever really happen on a "common occurrence" basis, or else dream-sharers would have no way to find each other (with precious few exceptions, perhaps, like bond-sharing people such as you and your daughter).

      Second, practical LD'ing has been around for a very long time, and, since it was used as a tool for centuries by various shaman, yogis, and those Tibetan monks, it was pretty much a given in the world of dreamers long before LaBerge et al entered the scene (indeed, I for one was LD'ing steadily for years before EWOLD appeared). Yes, the idea of shared dreaming has been around forever too, but it tended to reside more in the realms of mysticism and magic than as a usable tool, and its validity has always existed solely in the word of the dream-sharer.

      So, I think that, if dream-sharing were the same sort of tool, used regularly by as many people as LD'ing is, then we would be living in a very different world, with much thicker physics texts.

      I think this stuff is significant, and worth the risk of repeating.

      You have raised some interesting points here my friend. But please, do not fall into the 'science' trap - just because science in it's current incarnation does not agree with what is currently being discovered does not necessarily nullify what is happening. Back in ancient greek when atoms were first being theorized about Democritus was famous for saying point blank that atoms were not divisible. When Quantum mechanics was first proposed many scientists simply did not accept it as a viable theory because it did not work AT ALL with Einstein's theory of General Relativity. Even today, with all we know about Quantum mechanics is proven to be true we still do not know (with any degree of certainty) that it works in hand with General Relativity. So far the two theories clash, yet - they both exist within this universe as working models. Sure, super string theory and the 'big' M theory have been theorized as a way to join these two theories in harmony - but these new 'super' theories have their own problems to deal with which leaves a whole unexplained area where shared dreaming could fall neatly into. For example, string theory suggests that there are 11 dimensions in total which could help to suggest where this 'dreaming/astral' place is (if it is a separate 'place') and in the process NOT go against any known scientific knowledge. Another possible suggestion is that the astral exists within the invisible 'dark matter' (although current experiments have not found this elusive 'matter' so far) But the bottom line is that there is still a HUGE chunk which science cannot explain but KNOWS that exists in some form. Within the tried and tested 'double slit' experiment (quantum mechanics) above all things CONSCIOUSNESS seems to be the key in explaining what is happening there (it still currently resides in being the more competent theory)

      Think about it, if what is suggested by this experiment is to be true then consciousness is the key to the universe and puts the current view of how we understand the universe with the present scientific view to be pretty wrong.

      In regards to your comment about other ways to explain shared dreaming- absolutely - I am open to understanding - we have NO idea what is happening. Recent current developments have suggested to me that at this current juncture it is more of a type of telepathy based framework (although I would prefer it to have a more dimensional aspect to it) The bottom line is that there IS something happening and THAT is worth exploring is it not? At the very least, to borrow a phrase coined for quantum mechanics; there exists 'spooky action at a distance'
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      I forgot to reply to this point:

      I have always had a real problem with this. Why is it that dream-sharing has never been proven? Since it has a built-in witness (your dream-sharing partner), you'd think it would be a snap to prove. And yet it hasn't been. [And yes, Shadowofwind, if you're out there, I understand that dream-sharing as you understand it would be very difficult to prove, but I'm talking here about the simple, classic, "two people go to sleep and intentionally share a dream-space together" definition.]
      I think dream sharing is like an advanced version of lucid dreaming, it is difficult to do because we do not have a frame of reference to help us (unlike those who do not know how to lucid dream and have a plethora of reference material to refer to) It is my intention to help create an easy to use guide so that others will be able to access shared dreaming like they do with lucid dreaming - with a bit of practice and allot of determination.

    19. #169
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      Quote Originally Posted by tP97 View Post
      Stephl,
      Well I do fear one thing , that is if I am not being able to distinguish btw reality and dreaming . What I get reckless in reality? Is this possible?
      I don't know what exactly is not possible. I try to be in line with what I perceive as best path in my life. Be it in normal life, in dreams, in LD, in OBE travels. Then I couldn't do bad in my eyes. And have peace of mind. I like to learn new things (I don't know whether this is only about my psyche, or it is also about reality/different realities. I take it as possibilities.)

      floatinghead I heard about that law. It certainly does function in dreams or OBE travels. In real life it is not so simple.

      Just thought... Super-string theory works with 11 dimensions, well that is something... Maybe because in astral(and dreaming) we are moving in 5 dimensional space, therefore the time is not as relevant because it is 4th dimension. So that can be reason, two people don't need to be dreaming in the same time, they will connect by going through time to right place and time.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Psionik View Post
      I don't know what exactly is not possible. I try to be in line with what I perceive as best path in my life. Be it in normal life, in dreams, in LD, in OBE travels. Then I couldn't do bad in my eyes. And have peace of mind. I like to learn new things (I don't know whether this is only about my psyche, or it is also about reality/different realities. I take it as possibilities.)

      floatinghead I heard about that law. It certainly does function in dreams or OBE travels. In real life it is not so simple.

      Just thought... Super-string theory works with 11 dimensions, well that is something... Maybe because in astral(and dreaming) we are moving in 5 dimensional space, therefore the time is not as relevant because it is 4th dimension. So that can be reason, two people don't need to be dreaming in the same time, they will connect by going through time to right place and time.
      Can you imagine what would be possible if we were able to access a dimension where time does not exist?

    21. #171
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      I think there is not dimension without time... maybe lower ones... But who knows how to project to 3 dimensional space? or 2, or 1? Is that even possible? Time dimension is from our reality to higher dimensions always present.
      Perception is deformed. How to tell it... In astral time seems to be not very... linear. In mental dimension(that has to be 5th too, according to some authors it is in 6th) my perception of time lacks quite a bit. In Budhic dimension time lost its meaning. There was time flow, but it seemed to hold still, and when it flowed, it was very slowly. Forward and backward. When I tried to describe it to my friends I said that every thought seemed to last milenia. But even thought as such doesn't exist there. Thought process was transformed to something like very weak feeling. I cant describe it... I can exist in normal body with thought process similar to that needed in AP, but it is not possible to do the same thought process like in Budhic dimension. For example, I felt need to move to star(presenting my soulmate) and that needed whole eternity to reach point where I started react on that resolve and move. I didn't reach her, my concentration slipped and I was sent back into body. I need to fuse with her somehow. I don't know how, I don't know why, my inner feeling tells me it is needed. Next time I reach that dimension I will continue. But It is something like impossible to reach needed level of focus and state of mind to go there for me. I need to train more. And I do.
      Last edited by Psionik; 11-08-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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    22. #172
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      Okay, one more round, and then I throw my "contrary-man" hat into the dust-bin for a time:

      Quote Originally Posted by floatinghead View Post
      Sageous:
      ...But please, do not fall into the 'science' trap - just because science in it's current incarnation does not agree with what is currently being discovered does not necessarily nullify what is happening.
      Trust me, I'm not falling into a science trap; I am simply not wired that way. As I think I've already said, I have plenty of faith that science has only begun its journey, and much of what we experience either eludes the scientific process for proof due to the limits of current tools/knowledge, or else, and more often, is simply ignored by the scientific community.

      As I think I also said, the proof I talk about is more about what an individual is telling himself than it is about objective lab results. In the name of time and my own laziness: I did a whole thread on this, which I think I also already linked to, called A Treatise on Proof; you might want to check it out to see extended versions of my thoughts on this stuff, plus the crap I got for expressing those thoughts as well as the interesting arguments that ensued... that way we don't have to rehash it here, and continue sullying Nomad's thread.

      For example, string theory suggests that there are 11 dimensions in total which could help to suggest where this 'dreaming/astral' place is (if it is a separate 'place') and in the process NOT go against any known scientific knowledge.
      I'm not sure that the astrophysicists' required mathematical extra dimensions quite match the perceived dimensions encountered in astral or dream "travel," but I don't know enough about string theory to attach a meaningful response, save that the dimensions in which we exist -- and in which our consciousnesses are bred to perceive -- generally follow the laws of physics as we know them. Also, since our bodies exist in these four dimensions, and dream-sharing includes transmission of information from them to other bodies (or, perhaps, to some other place), "mundane" barriers like the speed of light and transmitting/receiving thought energy over vast distances seem unavoidable...unless there are more "laws" that we haven't yet encountered (which, BTW, I'm all for).

      Another possible suggestion is that the astral exists within the invisible 'dark matter' (although current experiments have not found this elusive 'matter' so far) But the bottom line is that there is still a HUGE chunk which science cannot explain but KNOWS that exists in some form.
      Again, dark matter exists to explain curious observations (like that fact that some galaxies' spin rates ought to be hurling their stars into space, but they're not) and to fill in holes in the math. Since no one has detected it yet (as far as I know), much less put it in a jar to study, it might not be time yet to attribute anything to it. Also, since dark matter is just more stuff, and not really a dimension-engine, it might not be the place to go to explain things like dream-sharing. If you want to attribute it to exotic concepts, I think the Higgs field is a much better candidate!

      Within the tried and tested 'double slit' experiment (quantum mechanics) above all things CONSCIOUSNESS seems to be the key in explaining what is happening there (it still currently resides in being the more competent theory)

      Think about it, if what is suggested by this experiment is to be true then consciousness is the key to the universe and puts the current view of how we understand the universe with the present scientific view to be pretty wrong.
      Except that consciousness is the key to our perception of the universe, and not to the nature of the universe. There is a difference. The universe would continue on its merry way if we did not exist -- I doubt it would even register our absence. Yes, consciousness is what defines us, and may be the ultimate fuel for helping us transcend this universe, but I don't think it is the universe. Sure, science has only begun to fill in the pieces of the cosmic puzzle, and much that we know now will eventually be proven quite wrong and perhaps deeply misguided, but is it a good idea to jump ahead replace those incorrect pieces with new incorrect pieces, whose shape is formed by even less information? Probably not.

      The bottom line is that there IS something happening and THAT is worth exploring is it not?
      Yes!

      Not only is that the core to, well, everything, it also is the basic theme of my life's work. So please believe that I am not in any kind of thrall to science or the scientific process, and do not hold its current lexicon as the absolute be-all and end-all of truth in this world... I'm sorry you got that impression from me, try as I did to avoid it. My goal here was to simply point out that if shared dreaming were real it would imply that there is a whole lot more going on in our world than we currently know, physics-wise, and that a thing should not be deemed as true simply because someone told me it was. Above all, with regard to "unprovable" stuff like shared-dreaming, the proof that matters is that which I make to myself, and can accept as the truth because I checked. No more; no less.

      Given that the conversation has shifted to other interesting things at this point, this will be my last post here about this... I hope I made better sense and, if you want to continue, feel free to shoot over to my Treatise on Proof thread!
      floatinghead likes this.

    23. #173
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      Quote Originally Posted by floatinghead View Post
      Can you imagine what would be possible if we were able to access a dimension where time does not exist?
      Yes!

    24. #174
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      you quit and run on me! lol

      No seriously, it is very courteous of you to respect the thread in this way as to not intentionally stampede on another's point of view - and I respect that! You are open minded skeptic - that is the best sort in my opinion! It is with people like YOU that we can really make any kind of progress, especially when it comes down to science. And you are right that when it comes down to it we are really relying on trust as the basis of any proof of shared dreaming at this point.

      With all this said - I would like to challenge you sir, I challenge you to take the time and effort involved involved in having these so call perceived 'shared dreams' so that you can make up your own mind. I will help you with any information and techniques you will need.

      If you are interested in this challenge pm me and we can get this show on the road!

      ... now I will tinker on down to your thread
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    25. #175
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      put simply - we reap what we sew. Are you familiar with the theory of the law of attraction? What you wish and expect to encounter within the astral/dreaming will manifest itself. If you wish to fight the demons then that is what you will encounter, but if you prefer to encounter only peaceful entities then they will be drawn to you. I think the only reason bad forms will be attracted to you would be if you entered the dreaming/astral with negative thoughts on your mind. Enter with love and you will only attract love.
      Well i'd be delibrately drawing demons near me because Demon slaying is fun XD

      The trouble with this is that lucid dreaming and dream sharing are two very different things, for two very important reasons.

      First, LD'ing does not require new chapters to be written in the physics books. Yes, LD'ing requires a paradoxical and arguably unnatural act of being awake while you are asleep, but it still works inside your head, and does so without requiring major changes in your physiology. Shared-dreaming must include things like instant communication without regard for time or space, and a method for forming thoughts whose energy can be transmitted to some other specific place and then be received, downloaded, and understood by the the mind of the recipient, which challenges far more than just physiology. Also, my quip about that directory wasn't so much to say that we needed to socially establish shared-dreaming to the level LD'ing currently enjoys, but that that directory (and routing-system) literally must exist before practical shared-dreaming can ever really happen on a "common occurrence" basis, or else dream-sharers would have no way to find each other (with precious few exceptions, perhaps, like bond-sharing people such as you and your daughter).

      Second, practical LD'ing has been around for a very long time, and, since it was used as a tool for centuries by various shaman, yogis, and those Tibetan monks, it was pretty much a given in the world of dreamers long before LaBerge et al entered the scene (indeed, I for one was LD'ing steadily for years before EWOLD appeared). Yes, the idea of shared dreaming has been around forever too, but it tended to reside more in the realms of mysticism and magic than as a usable tool, and its validity has always existed solely in the word of the dream-sharer.

      So, I think that, if dream-sharing were the same sort of tool, used regularly by as many people as LD'ing is, then we would be living in a very different world, with much thicker physics texts.

      I think this stuff is significant, and worth the risk of repeating.
      Did you know that most of the science we had been studying before the last century was invalid? Quantum physics flipped away the old science , the complete old science . Right now we are not even able to connect micro and macro physics , so there is a lot we don't know , thus SD can be possiblity, one of the reasons why SD is not as known as LD is that SD requires a big community of LDyers who would investigate further . THe conditions for the discovery of SD have been available only in the last decade. I agree with floating head on his veiws on SD.

      Just thought... Super-string theory works with 11 dimensions, well that is something... Maybe because in astral(and dreaming) we are moving in 5 dimensional space, therefore the time is not as relevant because it is 4th dimension. So that can be reason, two people don't need to be dreaming in the same time, they will connect by going through time to right place and time.
      Well... or it can be that one person read someones DJ and then after some time saw a similar dream
      floatinghead and Sageous like this.

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