Why I am not Trying to Prove Shared Dreaming

People keep asking me to prove shared dreaming. No. It's not that I refuse, it's that I cannot.

Please understand, that on my own, behind the scenes, without telling everyone on DV, I have contacted every scientist in the U.S. that studies dreams. No one is interested in shared dreaming experiments. They are probably afraid of studying the "paranormal" because they are afraid it will ruin their reputation.

All shared dreaming experiments over the internet will always be flawed because it's impossible to keep the dreamers from contacting each other.

The only way to prove shared dreaming scientifically is to isolate the dreamers in sleep labs.

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So many people want to be convinced. This I do not understand. "Convince me, then I'll try it," seems to be a pervasive attitude. Why? What have you got to lose by trying shared dreaming? You are asleep anyway for chrissakes.

I cannot prove shared dreaming is real. You cannot prove it is not real. If you think it might be, and are interested, I may relate to you my experiences with the phenomenon. If you don't believe it, why are you wasting your time trying to convince people that it's not real? Why don't you instead spend that energy doing research on how to become lucid more often, for example? Or, ask your Dream Guide about shared dreaming? If you haven't met your Dream Guide, I strongly suggest you do.

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Another thing that a lot of people fail to realize, is that a lot of people that can do shared dreaming regularly are advanced lucid dreamers. My point in saying that is that regular shared dreaming is an advanced skill that must be built up to. Rome was not built in a day.

I have been having lucid dreams ever since I was a child. I have been controlling my dreams for about twenty years. My first confirmed shared dream was six years ago.

Raven Knight did shared dreaming repeatedly for years, around ten I think, before we met.

It does take effort, practice and intent. Please do not be discouraged because you do not get it on a few tries. Raven and I got it on the first try, true, but both of us had already had confirmed shared dreams.

WORK

You must research different methods of Recall and Lucidity.

You must be open-minded.

You must tenaciously persist.

You must really put your intent into it.

You must be patient with yourself.

Shared Dreaming is not easy, but it is rewarding.

You even contacted Stephen LaBerge? He seemed more into, "out there" ideas. Good post none the less.

I get your point, good post.

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Originally Posted by Zebrah

You even contacted Stephen LaBerge? He seemed more into, "out there" ideas. Good post none the less.

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Yes. He did not respond.

The only one that did is Frank Pascoe. He is actually doing a dissertation on Shared Dreaming. I emailed him, he emailed back, I replied, and I haven't heard from him since. That was a year ago. I just resent the email.

I also talked to the founder of Stargate on the phone for about 45 minutes, but that's a story for another day. I am emailing Dean Radin right now.

Interesting. If shared dreaming was proved though. I doubt it would change much. The mass public are naturally skeptical of anything supernatural. Even with proof skepticism will still remain

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Originally Posted by Atras

Interesting. If shared dreaming was proved though. I doubt it would change much. The mass public are naturally skeptical of anything supernatural. Even with proof skepticism will still remain

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Japanese scientists have proved that light literally comes out of our bodies, mostly around our eyes and mouth. Of course, this did not make mainstream news.

I think if you want to proof shared dreaming, you must find some practical application that makes shared dreaming useful.. but what could that be?

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Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Japanese scientists have proved that light literally comes out of our bodies, mostly around our eyes and mouth. Of course, this did not make mainstream news.

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This is actually a well-known (and widely-accepted) phenomenon known as black body radiation. It is all matter, not just humans, that give off this light; most of which is infra-red.

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A black body is an idealized physical body that absorbs all incident electromagnetic radiation. Because of this perfect absorptivity at all wavelengths, a black body is also the best possible emitter of thermal radiation, which it radiates incandescently in a characteristic, continuous spectrum that depends on the body's temperature. At Earth-ambient temperatures this emission is in the infrared region of the electromagnetic spectrum and not visible. The object appears black, since it does not reflect or emit any visible light.

The thermal radiation from a black body is energy converted electrodynamically from the body's pool of internal thermal energy at any temperature greater than absolute zero. It is called blackbody radiation and has a frequency distribution with a characteristic frequency of maximum radiative power that shifts to higher frequencies with increasing temperature. As the temperature increases past a few hundred degrees Celsius, black bodies start to emit visible wavelengths, appearing red, orange, yellow, white, and blue with increasing temperature. When an object is visually white, it is emitting a substantial fraction as ultraviolet light.

Blackbody emission provides insight into the thermodynamic equilibrium state of the source of a continuous field. According to the equipartition theorem in classical physics, each Fourier mode or degree of freedom should have the same energy when in equilibrium. This approach led to the paradox known as the ultraviolet catastrophe, that there would be an infinite amount of energy in any continuous field. The study of the laws of the black body led to some of the foundations of quantum mechanics.

The term black body was introduced by Gustav Kirchhoff in 1860. When used as a compound adjective, the term is typically written as one word in US English, e.g. in blackbody radiation, but sometimes also hyphenated, as in black-body radiation.

Black body - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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As all matter, the human body radiates some of a person's energy away as infrared light.
Black body - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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I do find it interesting, though. In fact, I wonder if certain peoples' alleged ability to see auras is, more specifically, their ability to detect these levels of infra-red light. :-?

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Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

I think if you want to proof shared dreaming, you must find some practical application that makes shared dreaming useful.. but what could that be?

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You can't know anything practical about it if you don't know anything about it.

They explained "auras" at school a year ago. When you stare at anything for long enough, expecially when the object and the background have "counter colours", you start to get glowing around the object. It´s just that.

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Originally Posted by Ghost94

They explained "auras" at school a year ago. When you stare at anything for long enough, expecially when the object and the background have "counter colours", you start to get glowing around the object. It´s just that.

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This thread isn't about auras or meant to be for the discussion of auras. It's meant to discuss why WakingNomad can't prove shared dreaming and whatever else the post says.

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

This thread isn't about auras or meant to be for the discussion of auras. It's meant to discuss why WakingNomad can't prove shared dreaming and whatever else the post says.

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Read Oneironaut´s post..

Oneironauts post is on-topic, however. He gave the whole article nomad talked about that isn't on mainstream news. The reply might talk about Auras, but the point isn't auras, it is the study itself.

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Originally Posted by Ghost94

Read Oneironaut´s post..

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Originally Posted by Hukif

Oneironauts post is on-topic, however. He gave the whole article nomad talked about that isn't on mainstream news. The reply might talk about Auras, but the point isn't auras, it is the study itself.

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It just helped to provide some information on the subject. In WakingNomad's post he was just trying to make a point, not start a whole discussion on auras. Plus, this is also :offtopic:

Back to the subject, please.

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Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

I think if you want to proof shared dreaming, you must find some practical application that makes shared dreaming useful.. but what could that be?

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If someone is try to prove shared dreaming there doesn't need to be a practical application. Lucid dreaming doesn't really have a practical application aside from helping people with nightmares. Yet it is still proven. I think of you were looking for something then long distance relations would be something practical.

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Originally Posted by Zebrah

If someone is try to prove shared dreaming there doesn't need to be a practical application. Lucid dreaming doesn't really have a practical application aside from helping people with nightmares. Yet it is still proven. I think of you were looking for something then long distance relations would be something practical.

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Ah, yes, you have just made me think of a practical side to shared dreaming. If the dream plane turns out to be real, proven, and resembles the physical plane when undisturbed, it could possibly be used to study and visit far-off places, learn things we have never known before, and pick up a tip or two for use on physical Earth. For example, we could learn some technology from the dream plane, get some new ideas to things, and possibly get in contact with alien species.

I doubt you can say shared dreaming has no practical side to it if it turns out to be real and resembling to the physical world. It just offers too many possibilities. Of course, if research and technology developments through it is difficult/impossible, we can always have fun with it and see what we can do with it. ;)

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

I doubt you can say shared dreaming has no practical side to it if it turns out to be real and resembling to the physical world. It just offers too many possibilities.

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Exactly. The practical application, itself, would be in how many different doors of possibilities would be opened. If shared dreaming was proven real, it would open up research into all kinds of psychic phenomena, because it would prove that there is some "psychic" connection between humans. It would no longer be speculation. It would, literally, change the world.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

It would, literally, change the world.

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I'm just hoping that this is what 2012 is about. 2012 is supposed to change the world, so why not? :)

So maybe someone will prove it by 2012. Lol I'd like to believe that 2012 is something positive, not the end of the world

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

I'm just hoping that this is what 2012 is about. 2012 is supposed to change the world, so why not? :)

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HEY YOU!!! THIS ISNT ABOUT 2012, ITS ABOUT SHARED DREAMING YOU CAD!! :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :hijack:

Next time you want to make a single line statement sort of related to the discussed topic, you better make your own thread!!! :shock:


Oh and btw. in 2012 the sun will most likely destroy every mode of modern communication (cell phones, internet, TV, etc.) by way of disabling all satellite capabilities. This has been reported on major news networks, has been known for years by the government, and according to NASA will be like 20 Hurricane Katrinas in the first year alone. And thats just the US.

I will be happy to be electricity free communicating with the dreamers of the world letting each other know whats going on. Perhaps we can teach the younger ones these "secrets" and come out the other side of this Gaia balancing act a more aware species. We will see i suppose. I'm just psyched about psyching with other psychers. :)

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Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Japanese scientists have proved that light literally comes out of our bodies, mostly around our eyes and mouth. Of course, this did not make mainstream news.

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"our body is light, we are immortal"

.....

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Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

HEY YOU!!! THIS ISNT ABOUT 2012, ITS ABOUT SHARED DREAMING YOU CAD!! :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :hijack:

Next time you want to make a single line statement sort of related to the discussed topic, you better make your own thread!!! :shock:

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That was an absolute waste of a post.

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

That was an absolute waste of a post.

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I agree

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Exactly. The practical application, itself, would be in how many different doors of possibilities would be opened. If shared dreaming was proven real, it would open up research into all kinds of psychic phenomena, because it would prove that there is some "psychic" connection between humans. It would no longer be speculation. It would, literally, change the world.

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Shared dreaming is something that would be hard to use to turn a profit. That is the real reason funding is non existent. But if a philanthropist decided to donate money to research, things would get done.

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Originally Posted by Atras

I agree

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Well at least I use more words in my useless posts!

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Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

Oh and btw. in 2012 the sun will most likely destroy every mode of modern communication (cell phones, internet, TV, etc.) by way of disabling all satellite capabilities. This has been reported on major news networks, has been known for years by the government, and according to NASA will be like 20 Hurricane Katrinas in the first year alone. And thats just the US.

I will be happy to be electricity free communicating with the dreamers of the world letting each other know whats going on. Perhaps we can teach the younger ones these "secrets" and come out the other side of this Gaia balancing act a more aware species. We will see i suppose. I'm just psyched about psyching with other psychers. :)

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If you delete the first part of your post, this would become a post worth reading. And I agree.

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Originally Posted by Zebrah

Shared dreaming is something that would be hard to use to turn a profit. That is the real reason funding is non existent. But if a philanthropist decided to donate money to research, things would get done.

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Well, if you do what I described, you could potentially get money for research. It's not likely that we will be able to explore far-off places without shared dreaming in the near (or even distant) future. Plus, if you used shared dreaming for technology development, then you would be able to make a profit in the physical plane off of it.

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

Well, if you do what I described, you could potentially get money for research. It's not likely that we will be able to explore far-off places without shared dreaming in the near (or even distant) future. Plus, if you used shared dreaming for technology development, then you would be able to make a profit in the physical plane off of it.

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I suppose it would work for development. But it's not going to be as high a priority as something taxable. And by taxable I mean in the purest sense of shared dreaming. The products that are developed could be taxed but dreaming cannot be.

Things that provide quicker and higher pay offs are going to be explored more.

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Originally Posted by Zebrah

Things that provide quicker and higher pay offs are going to be explored more.

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So, you'd rather spend 1900 years traveling at the speed of light to and from a star than to get there in a dream in two seconds? I don't follow your logic.

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

So, you'd rather spend 1900 years traveling at the speed of light to and from a star than to get there in a dream in two seconds? I don't follow your logic.

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I would prefer to shared dream. I am simply explaining why research isn't going to happen soon.

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Originally Posted by Zebrah

I would prefer to shared dream. I am simply explaining why research isn't going to happen soon.

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Oh... I skipped over some parts of that. Didn't realize you were talking about research into shared dreaming. :oops:

I think it will be a while before we get somebody that studies shared dreams. We don't have many dream researchers at the moment (that was a guess; correct me if I'm wrong), much less a shared dream researcher.

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

Oh... I skipped over some parts of that. Didn't realize you were talking about research into shared dreaming. :oops:

I think it will be a while before we get somebody that studies shared dreams. We don't have many dream researchers at the moment (that was a guess; correct me if I'm wrong), much less a shared dream researcher.

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Yeah I knew you just miss read what I was saying. There are no well established shared dreaming researches to my knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Zebrah

Shared dreaming is something that would be hard to use to turn a profit. That is the real reason funding is non existent. But if a philanthropist decided to donate money to research, things would get done.

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So who here has a trust fund? haha...at least Inception's monumental success seems to be raising public awareness on dreaming. Kind of funny really, when I'd discuss lucidity or astral projections with most people pre-Inception I mostly got disinterested stares but now in the post-Inception world people can't seem to get enough :o

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Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

Oh and btw. in 2012 the sun will most likely destroy every mode of modern communication (cell phones, internet, TV, etc.) by way of disabling all satellite capabilities. This has been reported on major news networks, has been known for years by the government, and according to NASA will be like 20 Hurricane Katrinas in the first year alone. And thats just the US.

I will be happy to be electricity free communicating with the dreamers of the world letting each other know whats going on. Perhaps we can teach the younger ones these "secrets" and come out the other side of this Gaia balancing act a more aware species. We will see i suppose. I'm just psyched about psyching with other psychers. :)

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Dont be too happy about this. If this happens there will be no electricity at all, its not just communication, its transportation, plumbing, heating, ect.. And yes i did just diverge from the topic

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

This is actually a well-known (and widely-accepted) phenomenon known as black body radiation. It is all matter, not just humans, that give off this light; most of which is infra-red.

I do find it interesting, though. In f
act, I wonder if certain peoples' alleged ability to see auras is, more specifically, their ability to detect these levels of infra-red light. :-?

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That's cool! But, I was talking about a more recent discovery of visible light.
Strange! Humans Glow in Visible Light | LiveScience

And, yeah, it did not make the mainstream news.

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Originally Posted by Zebrah

I suppose it would work for development. But it's not going to be as high a priority as something taxable. And by taxable I mean in the purest sense of shared dreaming. The products that are developed could be taxed but dreaming cannot be.

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$500 dollars for one year access to the dream plane, another $100 for access to physic powers and $50 for dream weaponry
you know what governments are like these days, tax for just about everything :P

How would they stop you? Get their own trained people to dream about you? lol right

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Originally Posted by WakingNomad

That's cool! But, I was talking about a more recent discovery of visible light.
Strange! Humans Glow in Visible Light | LiveScience

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Ah. Good find. Very cool stuff. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by WakingNomad

And, yeah, it did not make the mainstream news.

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Actually, yes. It did.
FOX News
MSNBC

WakingNomad, people don't believe you because from what I've read, the majority of your shared dreams are purely anecdotal. You don't try to apply a scientific method to it, at all. If you got a group of people to exchange secret words or phrases, and got a neutral third party involved, that would probably be good enough for more people to start trying shared dreaming. You don't need an isolated sleep lab to collect scientific evidence.

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Originally Posted by MindGames

WakingNomad, people don't believe you because from what I've read, the majority of your shared dreams are purely anecdotal. You don't try to apply a scientific method to it, at all. If you got a group of people to exchange secret words or phrases, and got a neutral third party involved, that would probably be good enough for more people to start trying shared dreaming. You don't need an isolated sleep lab to collect scientific evidence.

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Please read the DJ by DreamAs1.

Don't make me cut and paste.

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Originally Posted by MindGames

WakingNomad, people don't believe you because from what I've read, the majority of your shared dreams are purely anecdotal. You don't try to apply a scientific method to it, at all. If you got a group of people to exchange secret words or phrases, and got a neutral third party involved, that would probably be good enough for more people to start trying shared dreaming. You don't need an isolated sleep lab to collect scientific evidence.

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you can't prove it to others unless you have a sleep lab, if not everyone will say "he rigged it!" he has proved it to himself, and that is all he can do at the moment

Okay, so why don't you formalize those results? Get a neutral third party involved, have them make a separate thread in which they post any new results you guys have and analyze them. Skeptics aren't going to read your dream journals for evidence in the first place if they don't believe they're real.

I posted a good process for examining the results in the shared dreaming experiment thread. I wouldn't have a problem examining results if you guys sent them to me. Although, I wouldn't analyze the results unless you guys agreed to use secret words/phrases, or some other believable method of verifying a shared dream, when you attempt shared dreams.


Anyway, the point is, if you design a formal experiment which attempts to conclusively prove the existence of shared dreaming through the use of secret pass-phrases, then more people will be interested and could take part in the experiment, too. Not many skeptics are willing to just jump into shared dreaming to prove it to themselves unless they see solid experimental results from other people, making use of evidence such as successfully transferred pass phrases, etc.

Of course it won't be 100% believable. All information on the internet, including scientific studies, has a chance of being fake. But if you apply a rigid experimental structure to shared dreaming, it will increase the believability of its existence.

You realize that the third party could just be making stuff up, or be communicating with the testers more than they should, or that the testers can talk before sending the results to a third party, right? That makes it, well, as credible as logged entries.

In any case, I prefer to take the challenge to share a dream with the people who want to try it, after all, I'm a skeptic too. Unless there is a lab, the credibility isn't going to go up, and then you need peer reviews, so even lab stuff can't be all that credible.

How about instead of trying to prove whether or not waking nomad is telling the truth, just try it yourself. And then if you try and find out it's real, you can find a way to prove it.

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Originally Posted by Atras

How about instead of trying to prove whether or not waking nomad is telling the truth, just try it yourself. And then if you try and find out it's real, you can find a way to prove it.

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that is the whole point nomads trying to get across!! haha

lol indeed, that was quite the summary.

There is no objective proof- you can always say somebody has been lying/skewing results for personal gain, or not including all information on the subject, and only publishing an experiment that proves their subjective analysis for money/fame. This is why WakingNomad doesn't want to prove Shared Dreaming. Its an inherent part of who we are, not something that should be corporatized, or used for profit or any of that shit. Besides...there are many who still don't believe lucid dreaming is possible, or even care to try it...takes too much time...too much commitment. People want the pill for lucidity...not the hard work. We really need a rebirth of discipline around the world.

What WakingNomad wants...and I agree as well on the subject, is to bring the idea to serious consideration to the masses at large. Guess what...science can't really tell you how you can CONSCIOUSLY change your breath patterns. They have nice theories...but no solid concrete proof. We're still in the detail based science stage of humanity...not the interconnectedness portion yet...will take a bit longer for that to happen :) .

As such...How you do it, and how it is done is two entirely different things. How it is done is very complicated...we don't have the right vernacular to explain it, and it would take to long, and you wouldn't be able to do it based off of how it is done. Instead...prove it to yourself, and how you do it will become apparent to you.

How do you prove it to yourself? Get a friend interested in dreaming. Ask them if they want to do a 30 day study. Focus on remembering and recording your dreams. Use a tape recorder. Also focus on Sharing a dream with that person, remember how they energetically feel, how they feel to you. Do this before bed until you remember a dream with them in it IN WHICH THEY FEEL THE SAME AS THEY DO IWL. Then write it down. List 2-3 general settings on another piece of paper, and give it to your friend. Have them write down the dream. Give paper to each other. Be openminded, being close minded will result in skeptical perceptions in dreamworld...which result in failed confirmations, or making up by your dream mind.

I would give 30 days a good try, don't expect anything. Have fun.

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Originally Posted by Atras

Dont be too happy about this. If this happens there will be no electricity at all, its not just communication, its transportation, plumbing, heating, ect.. And yes i did just diverge from the topic

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I would not say it makes me happy, but it is encouraging. Everyday I am sickened by the depths to which our culture slops in its own vomit. The same techs that brought exposure and freedom of information also brought increased distraction from reality. Given that our world in general is more spiritually aware then in past times, perhaps this will be an opportunity for people to reconnect. What better way then to take away the very thing that powers every sensory distraction and plunge us into sweet, truthful darkness.

Its gonna be us lonely people and our minds. Could be just my imagineering but this could be the chance that increased consciousness has been waiting for. Modern knowledge in past ways of life just sounds like the perfect recipe for increased interconnectedness. That said, it could be an immense opportunity to teach people about dreams and how it connects everyone. Using an experience everyone can relate to and drawing the line to the collective unconscious and interconnected energy of all things could definitely be an eye opener for many scared, starving people.

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Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I have contacted every scientist in the U.S. that studies dreams. No one is interested in shared dreaming experiments.

So many people want to be convinced. This I do not understand. "Convince me, then I'll try it," seems to be a pervasive attitude. Why? What have you got to lose by trying shared dreaming? You are asleep anyway for chrissakes.

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Here's how I see this....In our world, I am afraid of falling because I can not fly or levitate, and if I fall I will hurt myself. I think scientists are like this. They don't want paranormal stuff to be real because they're smart enough to know that it brings real risks, but they aren't good at it and can't control it. If you're Stephen Hawking, you're on the top of your world, a sage of the modern world. If shared dreaming is real, then Hawking isn't a sage any more, because his theories can't even begin to account for it. So Hawking, though a great and intelligent man, dismisses everything that he can't make predictive models of as unreal. The anthropic principle and the idea of 'randomness' in quantum theory are two examples of ways that they deal with questions that they can not answer. Both principles are valid, but they use them to declare anything that they can't master as off limits. If you were to demonstrate shared dreaming, it wouldn't be an asset for them in their world, because they can't design an experiment which everyone can set up and repeat and get the same results.

I think its just as well though, because magic becomes possible, and people wreak enough havoc with the power they already have. Science does have a certain reliable civility to it, notwithstanding its dark side.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Here's how I see this....In our world, I am afraid of falling because I can not fly or levitate, and if I fall I will hurt myself. I think scientists are like this. They don't want paranormal stuff to be real because they're smart enough to know that it brings real risks, but they aren't good at it and can't control it. If you're Stephen Hawking, you're on the top of your world, a sage of the modern world. If shared dreaming is real, then Hawking isn't a sage any more, because his theories can't even begin to account for it. So Hawking, though a great and intelligent man, dismisses everything that he can't make predictive models of as unreal. The anthropic principle and the idea of 'randomness' in quantum theory are two examples of ways that they deal with questions that they can not answer. Both principles are valid, but they use them to declare anything that they can't master as off limits. If you were to demonstrate shared dreaming, it wouldn't be an asset for them in their world, because they can't design an experiment which everyone can set up and repeat and get the same results.

I think its just as well though, because magic becomes possible, and people wreak enough havoc with the power they already have. Science does have a certain reliable civility to it, notwithstanding its dark side.

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I am afraid of heights cos i feel that i can fly and i wanna jump but i do not truly believe that i can fly :) so i can imagine what will happen with my body. Anyway thats for fun but is true. Btw im a scientist and i have problems with my fellow scientist to make them open their heads to what is out there. but they get aggressive when i touch things beyond the books they know :)

On the topic now. This situation looks like a kid who do not what to eat something cos never tried it before. Somewhere i have read/heard a thing which goes smth like this: you have to believe in order to see and not see in order to believe. More, this is forum for dreamers and is called "Beyond dreaming". So why bother be here if you have no believe in more than scientifically proven things. Another very nice sentence i heard: My mind is made up, dont confuse with facts! :)

Peace and go dream or even share dream.

Last thing. We are constantly share dreaming. And calling it reality. I suspect that we share dream in the dream world much more often than we think but we do not know cos we are stupid. The idea is to do it consciously.

Do you believe in shared dreaming?
Yes? Good for you. No? Nobody cares.
What's the problem if this doesn't turn in a rage debate between believers?

Proof is no more than demonstrating the complience with a grammar system.
Evidence is providing an environment.
In neither one of these can anyone controll anothers ability to comply with principles of grammar or abstract from an environmental source.

One can put a math book in front of a tree, but it will not learn to read.

If telepathy exists, and I am sure it does, no amount of words or standing in front of someone will make them telepathic enough to understand.

It is not these unique things that are of importance to someone who can never participate in the experience. A man can live among the apes, but an ape cannot live among men.

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

Proof is no more than demonstrating the complience with a grammar system.
Evidence is providing an environment.
In neither one of these can anyone controll anothers ability to comply with principles of grammar or abstract from an environmental source.

One can put a math book in front of a tree, but it will not learn to read.

If telepathy exists, and I am sure it does, no amount of words or standing in front of someone will make them telepathic enough to understand.

It is not these unique things that are of importance to someone who can never participate in the experience. A man can live among the apes, but an ape cannot live among men.

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I kinda get your point, in sum proof works for people that don't know and want to learn, if they are skeptic it's a big loss of time feeding their ego by debating with them. You choose to believe whatever you want to. Some people will help others to experiment what shared dreaming is but prooving it to someone, ughh it doesn't help people that share dreams at all, it just wastes their time.

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Originally Posted by mowglycdb

.You choose to believe whatever you want to. .

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A great fallacy--that we can choose what to believe, is the same as saying we can digest what we have not eaten by choice.

Cause and effect. We cannot choose what to believe--it is not a choice. This phrase is only used to excuse our delusions. Perception determines conception, conception determines will.

Freedom of belief is not a freedom at all, it is a corrupter of freedom.

When you believe that belief itself is something open to choice, you validate the imposition of belief--you validate the complete violation of the human mind and soul.

When, and only when you understand truth, you understand that it is independent of gods and men alike.

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

A great fallacy--that we can choose what to believe, is the same as saying we can digest what we have not eaten by choice.

Cause and effect. We cannot choose what to believe--it is not a choice. This phrase is only used to excuse our delusions. Perception determines conception, conception determines will.

Freedom of belief is not a freedom at all, it is a corrupter of freedom.

When you believe that belief itself is something open to choice, you validate the imposition of belief--you validate the complete violation of the human mind and soul.

When, and only when you understand truth, you understand that it is independent of gods and men alike.

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sure bro you can believe whatever you want, and let's keep on topic. PD: To the message under mine, anything that you think or conceptualize is a belief to proove what you're experimenting, saying I think and I believe that ... is about the same.

I read there were experiments to impregnate what people were thinking into a screen. They had a person conected to some wires and they asked if he could think of the leter X and then the image that was displayed on the screen resembled something like a X. Maybe when this evolves it could be used to test shared dreaming.

Kiss my ass. Tell someone else how and what to respond to. Arrogant sob.

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

Kiss my ass. Tell someone else how and what to respond to. Arrogant sob.

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Okay I looked at my post after a day, and yes I was arrogant and an ass in that post, I'm sorry.

What I wanted to express is that anything that anyone thinks or conceptualize is a belief or something that someone chose to believe, true or false at a given moment. For example someone has a grapefruit and passes it to a kid saying, this is a grapefruit , kid: Is this really a grapefruit?. Concepts are things that can be doubted because you don't know if the word someone told you really is related to the "idea" that concept represents, everything they teach you could be all a lie.

The foundation of language: Names are conventional. We do not name the abstraction, because that can never be conventional, we name the source, i.e. reality common to all.

But no, no one in all of creation can give you confidence in reality--that is a psychological function--which again, is not conventional.

When you say Is a grapefuit really a grapefuit, you are only using the same name twice. Aristotle, Plato, and those who work with mental functioning-- is or is not is all we can do, if you cannot do this, it is a mental dysfunction. Plato said you were mentally asleep. Aristotle said you were a veggie. Scripture notes that you are, by definition, dead--what we call brain dead.

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

The foundation of language: Names are conventional. We do not name the abstraction, because that can never be conventional, we name the source, i.e. reality common to all.

But no, no one in all of creation can give you confidence in reality--that is a psychological function--which again, is not conventional.

When you say Is a grapefuit really a grapefuit, you are only using the same name twice. Aristotle, Plato, and those who work with mental functioning-- is or is not is all we can do, if you cannot do this, it is a mental dysfunction. Plato said you were mentally asleep. Aristotle said you were a veggie. Scripture notes that you are, by definition, dead--what we call brain dead.

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About "Is" i like this: E-Prime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

The foundation of language: Names are conventional. We do not name the abstraction, because that can never be conventional, we name the source, i.e. reality common to all.

But no, no one in all of creation can give you confidence in reality--that is a psychological function--which again, is not conventional.

When you say Is a grapefuit really a grapefuit, you are only using the same name twice. Aristotle, Plato, and those who work with mental functioning-- is or is not is all we can do, if you cannot do this, it is a mental dysfunction. Plato said you were mentally asleep. Aristotle said you were a veggie. Scripture notes that you are, by definition, dead--what we call brain dead.

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You got me wrong sir, what I meant is when someone doesn't know what an orange is (for example) , you can show him an apple and say ¡¡this is an orange!! you choose to believe what they're telling you is true or false.

I don't like your attitude sir, not because you're just making sense gives you the right to insult and be disrespectfull, you're going into my ignore list, I have no reason to talk to someone who's just gonna insult me.

I think thinking you have to prove something to someone is mostly motivated out of ego.

Although I have had people come up to me who had no idea what lucid dreaming was and they told me I came into their dream and told them they were dreaming and they became lucid for the first time. Along with bunch of other confirmed shared dreams with friends. But really I don't want to have to prove anything to anyone. I don't want to have to be anything for anyone. I want to escape that. I want to be pure. I want to fight for my purity.

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Originally Posted by saltyseedog

I think thinking you have to prove something to someone is mostly motivated out of ego.

Although I have had people come up to me who had no idea what lucid dreaming was and they told me I came into their dream and told them they were dreaming and they became lucid for the first time.

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That's cool man. How many times did this happen?

once

Well I do have a friend that told me I was in her first lucid dream and that my DC acted like a more experienced dreamer than she was but that may just have been a DC made of her expectations of me. I am the one who introduced her to lucid dreaming so in a dream she might think of me as a dreamer more than as whatever she thinks of me in waking life.


Another thing. Once I was trying to contact Waking Nomad as I was falling asleep and all I could see as I tried contacting him was a Character from a TV show. The character was a vampire that was the leader of vampires in Dallas. I told Nomad about that and he told me that he had been going around as a vampire cowboy.
It may be coincidence that I saw a vampire from an area known for cowboys when he was a cowboy vampire or it may have been my first experience with the lowest levels of shared dreaming.

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Originally Posted by Waterknight

Well I do have a friend that told me I was in her first lucid dream and that my DC acted like a more experienced dreamer than she was but that may just have been a DC made of her expectations of me. I am the one who introduced her to lucid dreaming so in a dream she might think of me as a dreamer more than as whatever she thinks of me in waking life.


Another thing. Once I was trying to contact Waking Nomad as I was falling asleep and all I could see as I tried contacting him was a Character from a TV show. The character was a vampire that was the leader of vampires in Dallas. I told Nomad about that and he told me that he had been going around as a vampire cowboy.
It may be coincidence that I saw a vampire from an area known for cowboys when he was a cowboy vampire or it may have been my first experience with the lowest levels of shared dreaming.

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I actually dressed like a vampire cowboy for a full moon pow wow on a mountain.

bump because people keep trying to get me to prove dis shit

lol. Well I can't prove it 9and I am still a tiny bit skeptical) but I have had one confirmed shared dream. It was non lucid for both me and the other dreamer but it was the same.

I know this is an old thread so sorry to bump it, but I just wanted to say that this stuff IS real. It has taken me three years to get a confirmed shared dream, but now I do it every week - and the reason why it has taken me so long? Because I was holding myself back, kept wanting MORE proof and each time I met another person in a dream I didn't trust my gut. Skepticism is good, but in the dreaming it only creates more barriers. Sometimes you just have to let yourself go completely and believe.

We will be starting a new framework within the IOSDP very soon and will be pairing people up - this time I am convinced we will have strong results from the get go - as long as those involved are committed. (http://www.dreamviews.com/internatio...aming-project/)

A revolution IS coming