First and foremost, I want to emphasize that my life doesn't revolve around DreamViews and therefore I can't respond to giant fucking walls of text all day. So try to keep your post length down. Thanks. :) In the meantime I'll respond to this one which I said I was going to reply to.
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Originally Posted by
AL3ZAY
As well thought out as that was, and as enjoyable as it was to read, you have taken all of these orderly things, all of these parts of our existence and reduced them down to a random occurrence. You provide your own theory after theory, possibility after possibility, none of which are facts, and then state they are rational and scientific. Nothing is rational about random. Random is chaos.
I never said that these theories were facts. No theory is a fact. Theories simply provide a suitable explanation, given the evidence at hand. They are rational because they don't jump to any conclusions; they simply try to make the best sense of the nature of things.
I don't really see your point with the whole randomness idea. The formation of the state of the universe was a random outcome as far as we can tell, but that doesn't really provide evidence for anything supernatural. Perhaps you can elaborate on this.
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Stating that everything we know and experience is a random occurrence and attempting to break it down and rationalize it as such with theories, and possibilities based on what you currently know about each subject is not the real truth of things. It is only the truth you have created for yourself. This random occurrence is as much science fiction as anything I have asked you. Gamma rays modifying the instructions of cells? This is your theory?
As I stated, I don't claim to know the real truth of things. However, scientific theories provide very good paradigms to explain our existence. In fact, they are much better than mere speculation because they are backed by evidence. The existence of life can be traced back to approximately 3.8 billion years ago, when life mostly consisted of prokaryotic cells. Self-replicating molecules evolving over time are a good explanation for how those cells came into being, and it is the most satisfying explanation. If life came from somewhere else, you would still have to explain how that life came into being. If life was sparked by some divine intervention, well, that theory is scientifically uninteresting since we have yet to see any evidence for any sort of God.
As for Gamma rays modifying the instructions of cells, that is a well-established phenomenon and is the cause of some types of cancer. Other causes for DNA mutation include UV exposure, errors in DNA replication, exposure to mutagens, etc. I'm not an expert on DNA mutation, but it is well known that mutations occur often; otherwise, evolution wouldn't be possible. It surprises me that you're uneducated on this subject, but I guess I shouldn't be too surprised after all.
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All that was needed in a random sense was a self-replicating molecule. Where did you get this? The movie Evolution? This is not true in the slightest sense. Carbon, sunlight, nor water are ANY of the things that are needed. They are the only things you know, so that is what you assume. Life is not limited to requiring these things, it is how we are made up and how we are to live in the environment of carbon, sunlight, and water that creates all the stipulations for how we maintain life through oxygen for breathing, light for heat and for plants so we can breathe, etc..
You seem to be largely misunderstanding my post. When I say all that was needed was a self-replicating molecule under the right conditions, etc., I am speaking of life on earth. I'm certainly not denying that other forms of life are possible, and in fact I do know of one form of 'life' that is not carbon-based; it's made entirely out of space dust. We haven't directly observed this, but it has been observed in computer simulations.
To be honest, I still don't see the point you're trying to make here.
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Non-life cannot create life, meaning there would be no plant life, no sea life.
Lol, is this what you believe? How did life first come into existence, then? If you say a divine being created life then a facepalm is in order, since if a) The divine being is considered to be alive, then it could not exist without a living creator having created it, repeat, and b) If the divine being is not considered to be alive, then according to you it couldn't have even created life in the first place.
Assuming you mean physical non-life cannot create life, it is perfectly plausible that non-life did in fact create life, considering the self-replicating molecule theory. And that theory is looking pretty good to me, considering such a molecule has already been created in the lab. Now as I said before, we don't know for a fact that this was the cause of life on earth, but it is a valid explanation.
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A self replicating organism in the environment of Earth itself appearing out of nowhere, randomly, was the start of it all? How did it get its creation?
It didn't just 'appear out of nowhere', that's silly. In my honest opinion, it was probably created under just the right conditions, probably as a result of some sort of violent lightning strike during primordial earth.
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There needed to be plant life before we could inhabit this planet. How did it get here before us? Randomly? The organisms that self replicated all decided together that they would create plants that take in light to grow, and that they would turn carbon dioxide, the very thing we exhale, and turn it into oxygen as a waste product?
Your lack of education on this topic amazes me. The simple prokaryotic cells that existed billions of years ago evolved over time to assume many different forms and traits. Plant life came into existence over a long period of time, as a result of millions upon millions of minor mutations, which in turn got selected in nature for having traits that caused them to be able to survive and continue their survival without being wiped out. This is an inherent property in evolution; organisms develop more advanced and complex traits as a result of the diverse tree of life they came from, and their evolution is directed by their ability to survive, since if they died off, they would cease to exist.
The reason why life is so interconnected and why, for example, we inhale the very thing that plants produce is because our evolution was directed by our ability to survive. We couldn't have survived if we needed to inhale cyanide, since there isn't very much of it on this earth. However there is an abundance of oxygen, so genetic mutation progressed in such a way that oxygen became a part of our respiratory functions. The organisms that developed this ability were much better able to survive, and produced many offspring. So all of the minor mutations that occurred in history selected the organisms that were better able to survive and allowed them to thrive and produce generations of ever-mutating, ever-bettered organisms. The organisms that aren't able to survive as well just die off, and that's why we don't see any of them today.
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And the gamma rays from the sun modified them in a way that was beneficial to this process? Randomly? And they did this before we were even around, or any animals for that matter? Then the self replicating organisms, smart as they are, decided, "hey, let's grow into larger organisms that breathe the waste products of our brothers, and we will eat each other in an effort to survive."?
The gamma rays in our environment don't just modify DNA for the better. Gamma rays, among other things, are very capable of causing harmful mutations. The organisms who receive harmful mutations simply die off and cease to exist. That's why we only see the organisms that benefited from genetic mutations.
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Why exactly does this miracle cell need to survive? Nothing but itself? Then why do we need to eat food? Did it replicate and then eat itself?
Assuming you meant "What exactly does this miracle cell need to survive?" and assuming that you mean single-celled prokaryotic organisms: As far as I know, they need sunlight to survive. They use photosynthesis to obtain energy. The reason why we need to eat is because our DNA mutated over a very long period of time in such a way that the structures in our cells required oxygen to obtain energy. Oxygen is required to break down glucose, which we get from eating, into energy and CO2, the latter of which we exhale. The CO2 is conveniently used by plants to in turn produce glucose. This is the result of billions of years of evolution and constant mutations occurring in the trillions upon trillions of cells in existence at any given time.
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You did not answer a very critical question:
Cells only know how to do one thing, and that is follow instructions. If this self-replicating cell organism evolved all on its own into millions of different species and species variants, what gave it the instructions to do what it did?
GENETIC MUTATIONS. Holy fucking shit.
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What gave it the instructions to create plants first, and how did it know to create plants, just because there was sunlight?
Cells don't "know" anything. Evolution just progresses in the way that it does because certain mutations give organisms better capabilities which they can use to survive. Mutations are in fact completely random; the only reason why we see all the good mutations is because the good mutations were the only ones that were able to survive and reproduce.
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This organism could comprehend that sunlight was all it needed to replicate itself into something that uses light and water to grow? But wait, this cell must have started off in the ocean right? Because otherwise, how would it know it would need water when it created a plant? This single cell with no brain seems to be a very smart fellow. Oh but wait, it actually DIDN'T need water if it so chose to develop plants a different way, but I'm pretty sure cells don't actively make a choice in anything.
No, the organism can't comprehend much of anything at all. All it knows how to do is survive and reproduce, and that's because those functions are coded into its DNA. Lmao, cells don't need to start out in the ocean to "know" they need water to create a plant... the genetic mutations that occur over time happened to create these organisms because there was water in the soil and atmosphere that allowed those mutations to survive and reproduce. Life could have evolved in any possible way, it just so happens that it evolved in the way it did because of the specific mutations that occurred over billions of years. In fact, life as we know it has evolved some very good and robust traits over the course of time that it has existed, and it probably could not have evolved much better.
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What exactly is thought? A process of energy? How is it that the cells were able to create a faculty of thinking, that stayed the same with an entire species? Animals can only do so much within their scope of intellect, but that does not mean they cannot problem solve. These cells, I must say, they are incredible. They can do anything they feel like doing. Shouldn't that mean I can sprout wings and fly if I think on it so much as to cause my cells to obey my conscious instructions? Or are they more powerful than me and my collective ability to think? Can I lay seeds? I am made up of those same cells, I should be able to instruct them to do whatever I want, correct?
A thought is a very complex series of interactions between the neurons in our brains. Cells were able to create this faculty of thinking simply because the physical laws allow it. The genetic mutations that occurred over the course of history developed neurons, and since those neurons were helpful in allowing organisms to survive, organisms with brains thrived. All of those organisms produced many generations of more organisms with neurons, and only those organisms that developed more neurons, and more complex systems of brains were able to survive when faced with natural selection. These are basic evolutionary processes.
Our cells do not have the same instructions that, say, birds or plants have. Our cells do not have the genetic instructions to sprout wings or lay seeds. Our conscious thoughts do not direct our genetic mutations, and we cannot tell our cells what to do. Our cells work autonomously, simply carrying out the instructions they developed over the lengthy course of evolution.
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You're telling me this single, miracle cell/organism collectively managed to do all of these things, create every existing living being on this planet, and all in a perfect harmony, creating whole ecosystems with humans being chief among all organisms? This is what you call natural selection? This was all just one awesome moment of complete random that developed in the most perfect way possible over time?
Natural selection did in fact develop in this way. Amazing, isn't it? I would like to point out however that the first self-replicating molecules that came into existence simply provided the possibility of life; they didn't dictate what life would be. What life came to be occurred over the course of billions of years of molecular and genetic mutations. So it wasn't just "one awesome moment of complete random". These events have been occurring all the time since the first self-replicating molecules came into existence, and will continue to occur and develop ever-more complex life.
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You sit there and try to explain all these various processes of our physiological being as if that is what the cells set out to do in the first place.
Um, no, I never said that at all. It just so happened that cells developed the way they did because certain mutations gave certain cells an increased probability of surviving and reproducing. Cells are just cells; they don't have any particular intentions.
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Yeah it's great that you think you can explain all these things, but break them down to their basic nature and explain the origin of them. Break down the basic nature of thought. Energy. Break down the basic nature of objects. Energy. Break down the basic nature of cells. Energy with instruction.
Sure, everything is essentially energy. But it's also matter. What's your point? Energy has no supernatural implications.
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Break down the basic nature of a human developing from zygote to adult, and all the instructions needed to attain that. Your only answer will be a single cell that was so incredibly smart, it knew exactly where to start in order to sustain life on an entire planet and in what order everything should be created. Man that's a smart little guy.
Well, cells aren't smart. I never stated that they were. Cells are stupid, like computers, and they only follow the instructions they're given. Those instructions did however develop over a long period of time as a result of selective evolution. Everything came from, in my opinion, very simply self-replicating molecules which evolved over time. The reason why they got "smart" was because there were "smart" mutations that allowed them to be better able to survive. Once those mutations occurred, later generations built upon them with ever-"smarter" mutations. The "dumb" mutations simply ceased to exist, since they couldn't survive.
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And let's not even begin to talk about the rest of the solar system in our galaxy that just so happened to also be in perfect harmony with what life needed to continue for any period of time.
No, let's talk about it. :) Read up on the anthropic principle. Once you've read up on that, you'll realize that the only reason we're able to observe that everything is perfect is because everything had to be perfect in order for us to exist. If we didn't exist, we wouldn't be able to observe that everything isn't perfect. And don't even try and assert that it couldn't have happened as a result of random chance until you can wrap your mind around one googolplex, because that's how many planets have come into existence throughout the course of the universe's history. Actually, one googolplex is probably a huge understatement, considering our universe is billions of years old.
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You explained the creation of life as coming from a single source. A type of cell that self-replicated. One, that started out, on its own. Why haven't we found this cell type and given it instructions for new creations?
Life may or may not have been created from a single source. This source, whether or not it was only one molecule, was probably a self-replicating molecule. I never said it was a cell. And in fact we have created a form of self-replicating molecule; see the link I gave you near the beginning of my post. As for a cell, prokaryotes would probably be the best advocate for this type of scientific research, but I could be wrong. Anyway, we actually have modified cells' instructions to do certain things. That is an area of research. For instance, we have modified some cells' DNA so that they can produce fuel. We have done other types of genetic engineering, such as in livestock and in plants. There has even been some genetic engineering in humans. You have to understand however that these instructions are very small and very, very complex and therefore we can't just go all out and start creating new species just yet. There's also the problem of mapping out a certain cell's genome and tweaking certain parts of it to produce different effects.
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Why exactly does a single source of another type such as a consciousness make you so uneasy? What exactly is so rational and scientific, both of which require order, in randomness, of which randomness has none, zilch, zero, nada?
I wouldn't say that this makes me uneasy. It just seems very unlikely. For one, the human race doesn't interact with this consciousness on a regular basis, at least not in a two-way fashion, so I see no reason to really believe in it. If this consciousness existed, don't you think it would make itself more evident? There is very little reason whatsoever to believe in a God, to be honest.
I would also like to point out that consciousness probably does not exist outside of the human body. If you believe otherwise, try knocking yourself the fuck out and see if you have any lapse in consciousness. (Wait, on second thought, don't do that.)
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Then what exactly, is the purpose for your existence? Why do you engage in human endeavors?
Existence has no purpose, I am afraid. It is very egotistical to believe that we were created inside of this very large universe for some unknown reason. I do human things, simply because I am human. I have to eat, shit, sleep, and fuck, because that's my instinct. It's also yours.
Well, all you've done so far is prove your complete lack of knowledge regarding scientific matters. Have anything to add? And holy fuck, please do NOT come up with that long of a reply next time. Keep it under 100 words, or else don't expect me to reply.
