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Exactly. So.. take away the verbal statements of the waking "LDers" and what are you left with? Nothing. That's why "Doctor" (Psychologist) laBerge's "science" is completely spurious and seen as such by the wider scientific community. He's a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Freud schmeud etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakotahnok
I found them. Alright, now I'm going to put my own two cents into the arguement. LaBerge based his experiments off of interviews with LDers, correct? I myself am also a lucid dreamer, and if he interviewed me I would say that it is entirely and totally possible to dilate time perception. LaBerge at a later date, as noted by others as well, said that other experiments could prove his earlier theory wrong. Science is making a mistake, and fixing it to the points it's better. :D I also find the majority of this arguement to be a misundersanding. Dakota, you believe that 'real' time is the exact same as dream time, and it very well could be. Dowzer, you believe it can be percieved as longer. These are different, one is the physical passing of time, one is the mental tracking of time passing, which can be altered through error or on purpose. Another point made by Sageous: What if time doesn't exist? Interesting indeed...oh, and Oneiro, your arguements have been a bit harsh, so please try to make a good point without hurting anyones feelings. Too many good arguements become a shouting match and are tossed down the drain. Let's all be friendly...and insane!
:banana:
Listen.. if you'd been here for as long as I have, seeing these myriads of teen "noobs" who turn up, scream and shout for two minutes, and then disappear for ever, you'd be like me..Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerstar186
Don't believe their hype..
get back on topic guys, this thread isn't about how good/bad/stupid/smart teenagers are :P
time perception carry on~
You can tell somebody everything you did in a 12 hour period in about 30-45 minutes because you concentrate on the high points and leave out the mundane points, thats the way I believe dreams work..you remember only the high points, the worthwhile points and everything else is forgotten so it seems you did alot in a short time period, but its not necessarily so...theres very very few people that can remember every second of what they did the day before..or the dream they just had....the dreamtime seems to get compressed without forgotten mundane seconds included......
I'm not a noob who is planning on leaving anytime soon. You were a noob once. I doubt that you would take kindly to someone treating you like your words have no meaning. I don't think you deserve that, just like I don't think I deserve that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
Back on topic now.
I think your perception can vary. But not enough to to feel like 60 years. Imo
Well, we'd have to get AL3ZAY to come here to figure that out. I've only got a year at most, but I believe many years woul be possible, but an indefinite amount of time? Probably not. Even if you could, eventually you'd get bored. Even a dream you can only do so much. You'd be even more bored once back in 'real' life...possibly to the point of suicide.
Were talking about time dialation, not dream time vs real time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamil
A person's "judgment" of time may be a better way to phrase it than to say his "perception" of time. When you ask two people how long they've been on lunch break, one might say an hour while another might say an hour and a half. This doesn't necessarily mean that the second person perceived an extra thirty minutes in the sense that he experienced the same lunch-eating phenomenon but at a 150% rate of slowdown. It may be that they both perceived the same amount of time and one may've simply misjudged how long it took.
For this reason, I like the way Laberge put it when he compared dream time with a movie. In the movie The Godfather, one scene we see Michael in Italy and the next time we see him, he has returned home. We don't actually see him take the bus to Pisa, then the train to Paris (and see him watch all the houses as he goes by), then the flight to America. We just fill in that stuff and assumed it happened. Should that happen in a dream, the dreamer might fill it in the same way and assume he spent days of travel between two separate dream events. He perceived thirty minutes, but judged far more than that.
As for these extreme year-to-hour anecdotes, they create some problems when you break it all down. According to Popular Science, your brain needs 0.1 calories per minute to stay alive. When you think harder, it'll burn 1.5 calories per minute. So, when a person says they spent a year in a dream, they're claiming they experienced a year's worth of perception--a years worth of utilizing their brain's resources to make sense of the dream around them, to move around it, to think about it, and to just live in it. They are claiming to have fit 8760 hours of mental processes into one hour. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they've only burnt the minimum of .1 calories per minute. In the alleged one year of dream time, their brain has burnt up (60m*24h*365d)*.1 = 52,560 calories! There's an estimated 3500 calories in a pound, so after one hour they've lost 15 pounds at a minimum (hell of a weight loss plan). That kind of rapid weight loss sounds dangerous, not to mention absurd. Do these dreamers wake up emaciated?
That doesn't even mention how your eye movements in REM sleep likely matches how your "dream eyes" move, as is alluded to in EWLD. If your dream eye movements match your real eye movements, then one cannot move slow while the other moves fast. In other words, you couldn't fit in twice the number of "left-right" eye movements in a dream without moving your real eyes, too. Wouldn't year's worth of eye movements crammed into one hour likely cause damage if not blindness (not to mention more calories)? This alone should be enough reason for skepticism. But really, just look at the evidence. I'm not saying it's impossible, but right now we have Laberge's experiments and anecdotal evidence in favor of equal time perception, but only anecdotal evidence in favor of distorted time perception. Believe me. I'll be the first one celebrating if one day we find out it's possible, but that doesn't mean I'm going to throw all rational thinking aside in the meanwhile.
Perhaps popular science is wrong? I'm assuming it's correct, but I had a supposed year long dream, and I wasn't starving or majorly lighter when I woke up.
If I look back at last year, I could tell you all sorts of things. I could tell you about the different things we did at work, the different projects we undertook. I could tell you about the things I've bought, the games I've played, the places I've traveled, the friends I've seen. I could refer to many, many memories. Are you claiming you can describe to me a years worth a dream events? What did you do the whole year. Hell, what did you do for a week? A year is a long time. You must have a lot to talk about.Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerstar186
I'm guessing that if this is possible, than the brain uses different mechanics to achieve this than while awake. It seems a little much to assume that every calorie in a dream minute would equal a calorie burned in a real minute, given that so much is already different between the RW and DW. The brain likely uses the same number of calories in one of these that it uses in a standard night's dream (maybe a little more), but it uses them more efficiently. The brain is likely more efficient in dreams because it is able to percieve the same environments it creates, rather than in the real world, where the brain must control senses, interpret sensory input, reconstruct this input, and then further percieve the world it just (re)created, as well as control/protect the body that this brain inhabits in this world it has no control over. In dreams everything is done in one shot. Or maybe it's just a wonder of the brain. If there are people out there who can memorize 16 characters in 1/2 a second, read long novels in an hour, and the like, then doing this sounds somewhat more feasable.
Just my $0.02. I believe some time dilation is possible (like hours-minutes or days-hours), but I am a bit skeptical about these year or century dreams. But I am open to anything. TBH I believe subject-expectancy effects probably played a major role in the outcome of the experiments of LaBerge. If only there was a way to test this without compromising the dreamer. Even telling them about the experiment/sleeping in a lab would probably be enough to initiate a subject-expectancy effect.
In other words, all LaBerge and company proved was that time could flow at the same rate in-dream as it does in the real world, they did not prove that it couldn't flow faster/slower than in RL. In fact, the more that I think about it, subject-expectancy effects are really a glaring spot on this research. At the same time, I don't know of any real way to examine one of these "year dreams" from the outside using current procedures/technology. There's really no way to single/double-blind test this, because both the observer and dreamer must be away of some sort of tell for the latter to inform the former of.
I do indeed. I'll just start with the basics because I don't want to turn this thread into a dj XD I lived a year on a floating town. Floating on water, made mostly out of logs, carved intricately with heiroglyphic type drawings on most. It was a futuristic society, but a medieval one as well. Guns existed, computers existed, but things like cars didn't. The Reason I say medieval is because they also had direct god contact, if you understand? like praying to a god, and getting an actual response. I had a girlfriend named Sannet, (Pronounced like Janet with an S instead of a J) with dull gren eyes and long red hair. We also had a pet Digh (Pronounced Die) which was a frog like thing that walked on its back legs and was about the size of a dog. Its behavior was similar to a cats, and it had a sharp tongue, like a weapon. His name was Kuld (Pronounced Culled). The way things worked were earth like, gravity was the same, physics the same, et cetera, but the only similr species between the two were humans. I remember hunting, 'interesting' nights with Sannet, as well as rituals and meetings. Need anything more?
I dont believe you. Hahah jk. That sounds amazing man. I want to do something like that, but in my own perfect world. It would basically be like the world today, but with all my dreams coming true.Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerstar186
Re: LaBerge/respected Pioneer or not...
I haven't read much about him. If he did nick someone else's studies that's out of order. But I don't expect any public figure to be perfect. I reckon he's still done more good than harm to the LD field, because he helped popularized an obscure subject. My main point was we shouldn't take everything he says as the last word. I doubt he'd want us to do that either.Quote:
Not in my house he's not.. stole it all from Celia Green and then didn't give her any due, pseudo-scientist that he is. Check out her 1968 book "Lucid Dreaming" and then tell me I'm wrong. My arse.. he's a johnny-come-lately who sequestered previous research and set himself up as a new age pseudo scientist, conning gullible teenagers and others into believing his own self-aggrandising hype. IMO.
There's enough anecdotal evidence of extreme time dilation to make it worth further investigation, if anyone's interested. Are we going to write all these stories off as lies or delusion?
I have no interest in proving any of this stuff to anyone. I'm just going to hang out and read other people's stories with an open mind.
Interesting post. I've got a few questions if you've got time.Quote:
I do indeed. I'll just start with the basics because I don't want to turn this thread into a dj XD I lived a year on a floating town. Floating on water, made mostly out of logs, carved intricately with heiroglyphic type drawings on most. It was a futuristic society, but a medieval one as well. Guns existed, computers existed, but things like cars didn't. The Reason I say medieval is because they also had direct god contact, if you understand? like praying to a god, and getting an actual response. I had a girlfriend named Sannet, (Pronounced like Janet with an S instead of a J) with dull gren eyes and long red hair. We also had a pet Digh (Pronounced Die) which was a frog like thing that walked on its back legs and was about the size of a dog. Its behavior was similar to a cats, and it had a sharp tongue, like a weapon. His name was Kuld (Pronounced Culled). The way things worked were earth like, gravity was the same, physics the same, et cetera, but the only similr species between the two were humans. I remember hunting, 'interesting' nights with Sannet, as well as rituals and meetings. Need anything more?
1. When you were there did you sleep? And did you dream, or were you awake the whole time?
2. Can you return to the realm you visited or was it just a one off visit?
3. Did this area have the normal qualities of an average dream (things chaning all the time, nothing too solid) or did it feel more concrete and objective?
4. Did you ever feel in danger of waking up, or changing to a different dream, or any other instability?
5. Did the other people in this place know that you were dreaming? Did you ever talk about dreams to them?
6. What method did you use to get there? Did you take any Galantamine?
*****
The body's going to be a lot more efficient in sleep and dreams. There's no way we can assume that a dreaming body burns calories at the same rate that it does when awake. I don't think the calorie argument is very strong...Quote:
In the alleged one year of dream time, their brain has burnt up (60m*24h*365d)*.1 = 52,560 calories!
*
LaBerge's time dream experiment was in 1985 I think, that's a long time ago and a lot could've changed since then.
Thank you carwashguy! I was trying to describe Laberge's Godfather analogy to my wife, and made a real mockery of it. That is indeed about the clearest telling of this side of the story I've heard..
Oneiro, I'm pretty sure he had machines hooked up to sleeping subjects, and got his info while they were sleeping (ie, via specific eye twitches). Not sure that'll make any difference to you, but I thought it should be pointed out that more science was done than just asking a LD'er what he dreamed last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
Also, for what it's worth, I tend to agree with the scientific community on the spurious part, since he never built anything onto his initial research. Everything he states now is pretty much what he stated in the '90's. Kind of a bummer, really...
Sageous,Quote:
Although, you both might have noticed that pretty much none of those quotes Dowsen listed were actually made by scientists…
Ha! Good point, but most of the quoted were respected 'intelligent people' in their time. The list still shows how much perception is bound by the thinking of the times, and how quickly that can change.
I like your theory about no time, and being able to dicate the rules of our dreaming universe...
Sure, Dowzen. If anyone else has questions about it you can ask too.
1. Yes, we did sleep, but it was more of a I lie down, and then I stand up and the world is eight hours later type of thing.
2. Nope, but I have seen creatures from it, like Sannet and Kuld in it before.
3. Most of the time, no, it was one of the most stable dreams I've been in.
4. I wasn't lucid, so no.
5. Not lucid, so no.
6. I went to sleep, lol.
Thanks for your answers. What, you mean you weren't lucid dreaming, it was just a super-long unconscious dream, or am I missing something?Quote:
4. I wasn't lucid, so no.
5. Not lucid, so no.
Anything else you want to say about this world go ahead. I could read stuff like this all day...
So who are the best Time Dilators on this forum?
Well I've been hoping to make a DJ about it but it sounds like a LOT of work XD And yes, I was totally nonlucid. Just a basic dream...and the best time dilators apparently are AL3ZAY and myself, because I haven't heard of other people going more than a week.
Does it feel like you were gone for one year?
It didn't feel like taking a trip for a year, no. The best way to describe it would be like if you were amnesiac, and people told you lies about your past, but later you remembered it the right way and your thoughts were colliding. That said, for an hour or so after I woke up I was very befuddled.
Woah. I didn't realize you were not lucid, Tigerstar...Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerstar186
That raises a whole different problem. See, when you're lucid, you're bringing your conscious awareness into the dream with you, and that would have been very important for two big reasons: first, when lucid you are able to perceive, and remember the dream events as they happened, with waking-life quality, giving you a literally real sense of time and better access to the faculties that preserve long-term memory.
If it was "just" a dream, then you must rely fully on your recall of the dream itself; putting it all together after the fact. In that case, your dream time could very well have been of normal-length, but the dream held a level of richness and content that led you to "remember" that it went on for a year, and those memories could certainly feel like they covered much time, even if that were never the case. This is true regardless of how excellent your dream recall skills are. Matter of fact, I see that in your 1:29 post today you may have inadvertently indicated that this might be exactly what happened.
You might want to think this one through some more, Tigerstar, or get yourself lucid and have the dream again to test your theory. Otherwise you may have just had a very excellent dream whose memory proved, well, timeless.