Thread: Subconscious talking to you

Agent Smith:

A couple of nit-picky things:

Originally Posted by AgentSmith

Well, at the very least you have two hemispheres of the brain that can operate independently of one another. I'm pretty sure both form thoughts. I think personality disorders and some psychotic breaks occur simply because people have trouble combining these different and independent parts of the brain.

No, you don't. Science has known for years that the "Right-Brain/Left Brain" theory is not valid, though it still thrives in pop culture. For what it's worth, even the Right-Brain/Left-Brain folks never assumed that thoughts were created independently in each side. Conscious thoughts are single operations created by your mind -- there is no teamwork going on inside your head, unless, as you note, there is something very wrong with you.

I don't believe there is more than one "person" in your head, but I think its crazy to assume there aren't conflicting parts inside of you... Technically its all you, but the parts are certainly not identical and some of them operate independently of one another.

Philosophically true. but biologically your brain is operating as a single unit, tapping all of its sections as needed -- usually more than one section at a time. Aside from the sections that operate the autonomic systems, there are no independent sections -- hell. psychologists and holistic medicine practitioners would even argue that those primitive autonomic sections are also tapped by the thinking consciousness, and can influence thought, and vise-versa.

I do a lot of self reflection, but not in any weird metaphysical way. I just try and pay attention to my thoughts, where they are coming from, how they came to be etc. It sounds simple, but I've had great difficulty tracing my thoughts and emotions, and trying to pay attention to what is going on in my head... at least at a low level. Most people are just aware of whatever thought pops into their mind (high level behavior), but there is a lot going on in there underneath. Emotions are commonly regarded as being illogical, but I've often found that after digging deeply, they are rooted with logical concerns or somewhat logical thoughts. Your consciousness is really just the outer layer that brings everything together.. It takes some effort, but you can be aware of certain aspects beneath the conscious part - it just isn't easy.

Agreed, and well said.

There are also clearly parts of the brain that don't directly interact with the conscious at all. People think I'm crazy when I say this, but I have a good example everyone can relate to. Ever day dream while you are driving? I do all the time. Its a bad habit I know... but when I day dream, I don't see the road. I see the daydream imagery I create. What my consciousness sees is not related to driving in any way, and I'm not thinking about steering the wheel or pushing the pedals... yet I still get there. Most of the time I have no real memory of doing it. My consciousness had no part of this. So how did I get there without wrapping my car around a tree?? Well obviously a part of my brain performed this function automatically. You do this for more than you realize, giving the actions zero thought. After all, you don't have to think "left.. ok, now right foot.. ok, left foot again.." when you walk, do you?

Speaking for the drivers out there who do pay attention and regularly dodge drivers who think they don't need to pay conscious attention as they propel 2 tons of steel down public roads: Please, please, please pay attention! You might believe that your body is taking care of everything, but there are many, many decisions to be made in driving that transcend the trained automatic motor functions you mention. Why do you think pretty much every government has made cell phone use while driving illegal? That you haven't decorated a tree during one of your daydreams yet does not make you right -- it makes you very very lucky. I have a brother who manged to drive for almost ten years insisting that his car "drove itself," until it drove itself into a ditch at very high speed. Please pay attention!

Here is another example. Ever try to remember something, like a person's name.. but you just can't do it? Then two hours later, the name just surfaces into your thoughts out of nowhere? Well you weren't consciously doing that. What do you think was responsible for this? People would just say the subconscious, but that is such a vague term. There was a part of your brain that took it upon itself to continue searching your memory for this. You were not aware of it *at all*.

A much better example, I think, but again, your unconscious mind simply took some time to locate a file that you consciously requested earlier -- there really was no independent decision by some other part of your physical brain to help out.

Have you never found yourself arguing.. with yourself? Some people might describe this as being "conflicted", but I've noticed its really more than that. You have different ideas coming from different places that don't mesh. If you've ever had an internal conflict where you had two conflicting opinions about the same topic, you can probably relate. You literally fight with yourself before making a decision. I think this is due to an internal conflict.

There is a difference between having a list of pros and cons in your head that you must sort through before making a decision or conclusion and having a bipolar disorder where personalities in your mind are arguing comprehensively. I hope you meant the former. If you meant the latter, get help! Internal conflict is an intellectual term, not a physical term -- there truly is only one of you in there...

Originally Posted by Sageous

Agent Smith:

A couple of nit-picky things:



No, you don't. Science has known for years that the "Right-Brain/Left Brain" theory is not valid, though it still thrives in pop culture. For what it's worth, even the Right-Brain/Left-Brain folks never assumed that thoughts were created independently in each side. Conscious thoughts are single operations created by your mind -- there is no teamwork going on inside your head, unless, as you note, there is something very wrong with you.

I don't believe this at all.. Ever hear of alien hand syndrome? You can have a hemisphere control a hand... but its impossible for it to form thoughts? I'd just disagree with this. You can argue against how far the separation goes, but its quite clear there are parts of the brain with independent functions that overlap. I'm not arguing for two separate consciousnesses, but rather two different parts of the brain that are likely to perform similar functions. I guess you could call it two (or more) different subconscious processes with the ability to conflict... Even for all of us, there is a conflict between emotions and logic, which is literally the left brain / right brain dichotomy...

Philosophically true. but biologically your brain is operating as a single unit, tapping all of its sections as needed -- usually more than one section at a time. Aside from the sections that operate the autonomic systems, there are no independent sections -- hell. psychologists and holistic medicine practitioners would even argue that those primitive autonomic sections are also tapped by the thinking consciousness, and can influence thought, and vise-versa.

Well, I'd say that the only job of your conscious is to tie everything together. It really just serves to combine the different functions into a high level and usable form. I don't think there is much more to it than that.. There is obviously a lot of communication between different parts of the brain, but they do serve different functions.

Speaking for the drivers out there who do pay attention and regularly dodge drivers who think they don't need to pay conscious attention as they propel 2 tons of steel down public roads: Please, please, please pay attention! You might believe that your body is taking care of everything, but there are many, many decisions to be made in driving that transcend the trained automatic motor functions you mention. Why do you think pretty much every government has made cell phone use while driving illegal? That you haven't decorated a tree during one of your daydreams yet does not make you right -- it makes you very very lucky. I have a brother who manged to drive for almost ten years insisting that his car "drove itself," until it drove itself into a ditch at very high speed. Please pay attention!

Well, some times I can't help it. My safe driving aside, its still an automated function that I'm literally not consciously involved in..

A much better example, I think, but again, your unconscious mind simply took some time to locate a file that you consciously requested earlier -- there really was no independent decision by some other part of your physical brain to help out.

Well I can't really disagree. If I'm not consciously doing it, my unconscious is doing it. There is obviously some part of your brain that is working to do this, without conscious effort. How complicated it needs to be is irrelevant, I've just been given examples of functions your brain essentially performs without you.

There is a difference between having a list of pros and cons in your head that you must sort through before making a decision or conclusion and having a bipolar disorder where personalities in your mind are arguing comprehensively. I hope you meant the former. If you meant the latter, get help! Internal conflict is an intellectual term, not a physical term -- there truly is only one of you in there...

You've NEVER had a situation where you literally wanted something, but at the same time didn't? I have gone through the pros and cons, but its different than being internally conflicted. Some times its an emotional response versus a logical response. Other times its just two different opinions.

Personally, I think the people who have serious problems are really just "destabilized" and their conscious has less control over their parts. I don't think the mentally ill people physically have any differences than us. I don't think they operate any differently, but rather their controlling portions don't work as effectively.

Do you think they are physically built differently? Do you think the chemical inbalances in their head are creating the thoughts, or just preventing their control over them?

Originally Posted by AgentSmith

I don't believe this at all.. Ever hear of alien hand syndrome? You can have a hemisphere control a hand... but its impossible for it to form thoughts? I'd just disagree with this. You can argue against how far the separation goes, but its quite clear there are parts of the brain with independent functions that overlap. I'm not arguing for two separate consciousnesses, but rather two different parts of the brain that are likely to perform similar functions. I guess you could call it two (or more) different subconscious processes with the ability to conflict... Even for all of us, there is a conflict between emotions and logic, which is literally the left brain / right brain dichotomy...

I didn't deny that a hemisphere might be able to control a function (a la Alien Hand Syndrome), or that whatever other (usually anecdotal) proof of Right/Left Brain Theory is not true. What I said was that scientists, through actual experimenting using new tools like FMRI, have found that when they looked at the brain during conscious activity, they found that the brain "lit up" throughout, regardless of what that conscious thought was. Sure, some spots were more active than others, but at no time did one hemisphere operate independently from the other, especially in the thought department. So believe what you will; science begs to differ.

Well, I'd say that the only job of your conscious is to tie everything together. It really just serves to combine the different functions into a high level and usable form. I don't think there is much more to it than that.. There is obviously a lot of communication between different parts of the brain, but they do serve different functions.

That's a fairly meager expectation for the thing that makes us human, don't you think? I think I will continue to believe, or at least hope, that I've got a bit more control over my thoughts, mind, and I suppose mental destiny than simply organizing what happens outside my conscious purview!

You've NEVER had a situation where you literally wanted something, but at the same time didn't? I have gone through the pros and cons, but its different than being internally conflicted. Some times its an emotional response versus a logical response. Other times its just two different opinions.

Sure I have, but it has always been an intellectual issue -- I never felt like there was another me inside actively arguing, vocally, against my wishes. Internal conflict comes from a collision of differing desires, expectations, or memories (i.e., experience speaking through blind optimism) that might well up while processing an important decision. That certainly includes dealing with -- or considering -- emotional responses, but in no way is there another rational mind presenting counter arguments to me in English. That would be incredibly disturbing.

Do you think they are physically built differently? Do you think the chemical imbalances in their head are creating the thoughts, or just preventing their control over them?

Yes. That would be an excellent explanation. And, by extension, people so afflicted tend to consider those chemical imbalances to be quite balanced, and that their "conversations" are real, and everyone else is sick.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I didn't deny that a hemisphere might be able to control a function (a la Alien Hand Syndrome), or that whatever other (usually anecdotal) proof of Right/Left Brain Theory is not true. What I said was that scientists, through actual experimenting using new tools like FMRI, have found that when they looked at the brain during conscious activity, they found that the brain "lit up" throughout, regardless of what that conscious thought was. Sure, some spots were more active than others, but at no time did one hemisphere operate independently from the other, especially in the thought department. So believe what you will; science begs to differ.

Well I'm not sure such FMRI experiments would actually relate to what we are talking about. As I said, I believe the conscious part of our mind works to focus all of our thoughts, senses, feelings, etc all together. Obviously when we are doing this, and we are using all parts of our brain in unison, the mind can be much more stimulated. I would expect the results you are speaking of to be quite honest... so I'm not sure it has any bearing on what we are talking about.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that "conscious thought" might not be as perfect and unifying as people typically assume. Everyone sort of agrees in the conscious/subconscious concept... but I think it might be more complicated than that, with more gray areas and some higher level functioning that aren't fully in mesh with your consciousness. In other words, you consciousness can engage all parts of your brain, but not all thoughts and brain functions are immediately part of your consciousness. You might be inclined to say that this is simply the subconscious, but people don't commonly associate it with high level functions.

Going back to the alien hand syndrome, the particular reason I'm citing it is due to the fact that the actions of the alien hand aren't just random. Many time the actions of the hand have purpose... in extreme examples it will literally work against the actions of the other hand or the individual. This requires awareness, control of motor ability, visual understanding and thought. I think for most of us, the two hemispheres of the brain that have control over this are simply meshed together in a way we don't even realize... but my point is that there can be varying levels of congruity, as this extreme example shows.

All of this aside, this is a dream forum, so how about the subject of dreams? Forget the lucidity part, and lets take a normal non lucid dream. Your conscious element in the dream is completely dwarfed in complexity by the surroundings. Visuals are being generated, dream characters are doing there own thing. Some times they talk to you, surprise you, scare you, etc. By all means, many of the "non conscious" elements in the dream can show some pretty impressive thoughts. I've on at least one or more occasion have been outsmarted by entities in my dream. At the very least, this is an impressive display of thought happening out of the realm of your conscious dream-self. I think this in itself is a good example how complex thought can occur outside of our conscious awareness. Granted, this is when you are asleep, but it proves its not impossible.

That's a fairly meager expectation for the thing that makes us human, don't you think? I think I will continue to believe, or at least hope, that I've got a bit more control over my thoughts, mind, and I suppose mental destiny than simply organizing what happens outside my conscious purview!

I don't think I'm short changing us at all. I'd like to add this isn't a human quality, and I think most living creatures possess this to varying degrees.

Also keep in mind that the parts that make you up are still in fact you. The conscious part of you that connects and organizes all of these different thoughts and senses has been building the parts up for years. The sum of the parts equal the whole. The part that brings it all together is the most important part, because the pieces would be useless without them. Its pretty much accepted that there are different parts of the brain for different functions, and that there seems to be some redundancy.

Sure I have, but it has always been an intellectual issue -- I never felt like there was another me inside actively arguing, vocally, against my wishes. Internal conflict comes from a collision of differing desires, expectations, or memories (i.e., experience speaking through blind optimism) that might well up while processing an important decision. That certainly includes dealing with -- or considering -- emotional responses, but in no way is there another rational mind presenting counter arguments to me in English. That would be incredibly disturbing.

... and logic never conflicted with emotions, and you've never had multiple emotions that were not logically compatible ?? I know where you are coming from... you sound like a logical person, and I'd like to think I am too.. and on a daily basis we try to eliminate all of the incongruencies. We try to think in pure logic, and make our mind a harmonious and strictly controlled thought crunching machine... Everything I'm talking about is pretty undesirable stuff. Intelligent people naturally weed this behavior out.

I'm not sure about you, but I still have a small recollection of how I was as a child. A lot of what I'm talking about applied much more back then. A more refined mind doesn't have these problems, and by all means will just work a lot better.

Of course, its entirely you never had any of these experiences. I think its clear I can't say "this is how it works, and I can factually prove it". I can only go by my own experiences, and try to relate them to you. Maybe your experiences have been completely different, or maybe you've just forgotten or never realized these things occurred. Personally, I think its pretty common, especially in modern day America. I have one boss who is all over the place, and will contradict himself from minute to minute. I would guess he is pretty internally conflicted.

Yes. That would be an excellent explanation. And, by extension, people so afflicted tend to consider those chemical imbalances to be quite balanced, and that their "conversations" are real, and everyone else is sick.

I have to apologize, I'm genuinely not sure what you are saying yes to. Are you saying yes to that they are physically different, or its just a chemical thing? Or both? I think you were saying that it might be a chemical thing and they can't control themselves, but I didn't want to assume anything.

Either way, my goal was to get at the fact that there might be gray areas here. Maybe some people are almost completely united in their thoughts, while others have varying degree of disconnect.

Regarding the 'alien hand': I've experienced this a few times. It didn't seem like a matter of being conflicted. It was more as if some part of my mind had motor control, and information that it judged significant enough to be worth acting on, but not enough access to the speech center to get a 'voice in head' message through. An obstacle for a 'conscious' thought seemed to be that I had no existing thoughts that the new thought could be expressed in terms of, and I'm not creative enough to easily put together new thoughts that aren't some kind of combination or logical extension of things I've thought or experienced previously.

As I mentioned earlier, I agree that a lot of subconscious thinking is fairly high level. And I agree that there's no clear dividing line between conscious and unconscious.

As I've mentioned earlier, I'm also not entirely on board with "the parts that make you up are still in fact you", except as a tautology. The part of my mind that creates a lot of my dreams exhibits an independence of will, and thinks and does much that I'm not even aware of. Why should I call that 'me'? Is the presumption of dependence on a brain that's housed in the same skull sufficient to establish identity? Of course there are close interrelationships between that part of my mind and other parts, but there can be close interrelationships between separate individuals also. And then there are my subconscious interactions with other minds, communication and shared activity among muses. It would be egomaniacal, and unfairly dismissive of other people and their free will and creativity, for me to consider that stuff all 'me' just because I'm aware of it internally. There is a kindredness of identity, and elements that are in common, but in every practical sense its more of an 'us' than a 'me'.

Maybe I'm guessing incorrectly, but I get the feeling that some of you are disturbed by the idea that something besides "you" can influence your thoughts and affect control of your body. And that discomfort affects both your objectivity and what you're willing to allow yourself to experience. For myself, I'm comfortable sharing my mind with a plurality identity. I'm extremely stubborn and independent in my thinking, and I'm not inclined to tolerate manipulation or impingement on my freedom of will. But the other higher parts of my mind, or our minds, that I'm aware of internally seem to respect that, and I respect their freedom also. And reason and sincerity are common standards that we can appeal to when communicating.

I was raised Christian, but the idea of God as an authority never really took for me, I always rejected it. I wonder if some of you got pushed down a little harder, and got out from under it later, and are still fighting more to maintain a psychological independence. I don't mean to sound all superior here, I've got my own issues in relation to identity, confusion about what's me and what's not me, and confusion about how to deal constructively with my 'lower' destructive desires that don't seem amenable to reason. But my point is to suggest that this 'control issue' may account for some of our difference in experience.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

As I mentioned earlier, I agree that a lot of subconscious thinking is fairly high level. And I agree that there's no clear dividing line between conscious and unconscious.

As I've mentioned earlier, I'm also not entirely on board with "the parts that make you up are still in fact you", except as a tautology. The part of my mind that creates a lot of my dreams exhibits an independence of will, and thinks and does much that I'm not even aware of. Why should I call that 'me'? Is the presumption of dependence on a brain that's housed in the same skull sufficient to establish identity? Of course there are close interrelationships between that part of my mind and other parts, but there can be close interrelationships between separate individuals also. And then there are my subconscious interactions with other minds, communication and shared activity among muses. It would be egomaniacal, and unfairly dismissive of other people and their free will and creativity, for me to consider that stuff all 'me' just because I'm aware of it internally. There is a kindredness of identity, and elements that are in common, but in every practical sense its more of an 'us' than a 'me'.

Well, it is an interesting notion... and the thought of this still scares the crap out of me. I was actually trying to discuss this with my wife tonight (she is a psychologist), and we were discussing this very notion. Whatever part of your brain that is controlling your dreams is very capable. The level of separation is also pretty high. In some ways it seems "us" might be an applicable term.

On the other hand, taking into account lucidity, the same parts of you seem to submit to conscious will very easily... even take orders from you with verbal commands. So, its also not entirely the same as two consciousnesses... but there is obviously a lot of space in between that and a singular unified mind.

You know, this is starting to sound like a really good lucidity experiment. Unfortunately, its hard for me to remember goals in my dreams (I've only had DILD, WILD always results in me just falling asleep)... I would really like to test the extent of communication between my conscious self and whatever subconscious element is producing this. If there really is an "us" I would expect that it could most easily communicate here. I sort of have a feeling that some of these separate processes are "robotic", while others are just a failure of the consciousness to fully unite everything - and may fall in and out of being integrated with "you"... but I can definitely entertain the possibility that its more than that. Communication tests would be a really interesting experiment.

I've always also wondered if an acutal "split" personality could be fostered (not that I'd try). Our brains are very adaptable. I wonder if someone made an effort, whether they'd legitimately be able to create a conflicted and separate you/us/them(?). Like I said to Sageous, I think most people do the opposite and work towards the most unified and smoothly running consciousness. It seems to work better that way... but what if we didn't do that? If that wouldn't do it, then what would it take? Chemicals? Physical damage?

UGH MAH GOSH!!! i want to read all this but its just too much ; [

AgentSmith:

I think that we're falling mostly on the same page at this point, but I feel I must throw in a couple more responses, just for further clarity:

Originally Posted by AgentSmith

All of this aside, this is a dream forum, so how about the subject of dreams? Forget the lucidity part, and lets take a normal non lucid dream. Your conscious element in the dream is completely dwarfed in complexity by the surroundings. Visuals are being generated, dream characters are doing there own thing. Some times they talk to you, surprise you, scare you, etc. By all means, many of the "non conscious" elements in the dream can show some pretty impressive thoughts. I've on at least one or more occasion have been outsmarted by entities in my dream. At the very least, this is an impressive display of thought happening out of the realm of your conscious dream-self. I think this in itself is a good example how complex thought can occur outside of our conscious awareness. Granted, this is when you are asleep, but it proves its not impossible.

Agreed on all counts save one very important one: Nothing is happening outside the realm of your conscious dream-self. In a non-lucid dream, your conscious dream-self is just another dream character whose entire existence derives from the imaginings of your dreaming mind (aka - You). You are being outwitted by your own inventions, not someone else's. Yes, those inventions are created by unconscious activity that the dream-character-You has utterly no control over -- again, in a non-LD -- but they were still created by you. The dream-character-you in non-lucids was simply outwitted by schema created from information drawn from the file cabinet of your own mind, your own experience -- not someone else's. Complex thoughts might indeed be created in a dream, but they are being created by your own unconscious mind -- not someone else's... and I promise that's the last time I'll write that sentence!

That said, advanced Lucid dreaming can become an excellent tool for avoiding such an event, because you understand that you are not a dream character, and you know through high self-awareness from where the conflicts and challenges you are facing in a dream derive.

I think this really the only place we differ significantly, and I think it relates nicely to Raetin's OP: I believe that humans possess one mind, period. Much of that mind is very difficult (even, I'll concede again, occasionally impossible) to access and understand. Also, because of the sheer quantity of information stored in our memories, unconscious activity presents both an incredible resource for mental/spiritual development and a potentially dangerous cauldron of psychic chaos that it would be best not to tip over injudiciously. Tapping this vast chunk of our minds -- our beings -- might have great value or danger, but no matter what, that tapping would not come in the form of a conversation with someone who is not us.

... and logic never conflicted with emotions, and you've never had multiple emotions that were not logically compatible ?? I know where you are coming from... you sound like a logical person, and I'd like to think I am too.. and on a daily basis we try to eliminate all of the incongruencies. We try to think in pure logic, and make our mind a harmonious and strictly controlled thought crunching machine... Everything I'm talking about is pretty undesirable stuff. Intelligent people naturally weed this behavior out.

I'm not sure about you, but I still have a small recollection of how I was as a child. A lot of what I'm talking about applied much more back then. A more refined mind doesn't have these problems, and by all means will just work a lot better.

Of course, its entirely you never had any of these experiences. I think its clear I can't say "this is how it works, and I can factually prove it". I can only go by my own experiences, and try to relate them to you. Maybe your experiences have been completely different, or maybe you've just forgotten or never realized these things occurred. Personally, I think its pretty common, especially in modern day America. I have one boss who is all over the place, and will contradict himself from minute to minute. I would guess he is pretty internally conflicted.

I think I've totally failed to make my point on this one, but I'll try one more time: Of course internal conflict exists! I agree completely with everything you said above, and I can do so this time specifically because you did not say this time that, when conflicted, you work it out through conversation inside your head with someone who is not you. That was the only point I was trying to make, and I'll say it once more: If you find yourself having actual verbal arguments with somebody else in your head, you may need to seek professional help. So, internal conflict: yes, absolutely! It is utterly commonplace, healthy, and human to be "of more than one mind" on a subject -- It is not commonplace or healthy to carry out discussions with separate distinct personalities residing inside your head -- that is a totally different interpretation of being "of more than one mind." At any rate, that's all I wanted to say from the start -- sorry I wasted so many words getting my point across.

I have to apologize, I'm genuinely not sure what you are saying yes to. Are you saying yes to that they are physically different, or its just a chemical thing? Or both? I think you were saying that it might be a chemical thing and they can't control themselves, but I didn't want to assume anything.

Yes to both. In my opinion "physically built differently" and "chemical imbalances" amount to pretty much the same thing. And again, saying that they are "creating the thoughts, or just preventing their control over them" seemed to me a fine explanation

Either way, my goal was to get at the fact that there might be gray areas here. Maybe some people are almost completely united in their thoughts, while others have varying degree of disconnect.

100% agreed. Gray areas there are. No question. But they are your gray areas, not someone else's! ...oops, I broke my promise already!

Shadowofwind:

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Maybe I'm guessing incorrectly, but I get the feeling that some of you are disturbed by the idea that something besides "you" can influence your thoughts and affect control of your body. And that discomfort affects both your objectivity and what you're willing to allow yourself to experience. For myself, I'm comfortable sharing my mind with a plurality identity. I'm extremely stubborn and independent in my thinking, and I'm not inclined to tolerate manipulation or impingement on my freedom of will. But the other higher parts of my mind, or our minds, that I'm aware of internally seem to respect that, and I respect their freedom also. And reason and sincerity are common standards that we can appeal to when communicating.

[I was wondering when this would come up...]


Though I suppose I might be one of those folks who find alien influence disturbing, that does not mean that I find it impossible! Disturbing might be the wrong word here for me...I'd rather go with challenging.

Shadowofwind, please rest assured that is not what I (at least) was talking about; my thoughts and arguments in this thread have been centered on the idea that we as individuals have but one mind. Regardless of how disparate and inaccessible certain parts of your mind might be, it is all still one collective You.

That has nothing to do with the possible influence minds that reside physically outside yours might have on your thoughts, desires, deeds, actions, etc. In that case those would certainly be other people, and I imagine conversation with them would be most desirable. I for one would welcome the existence of dream-sharing, muses, and perhaps a functional collective unconscious. If/when I finally prove to myself that it all exists, I hope to have many a conversation indeed...oh, and mastering LD'ing is excellent prep work for successfully holding those conversations.

Yes, a certain amount of the freedom or division within my identity is volitional, I try to strike a balance. I could try to push more intellectual control on the 'muse' part, or alternately become more passive and 'channel' the muse more. But if I were to control more, I'll shut down a lot of the creativity and fun for the subconscious part, which it shares with me. And if I were to become more passive, I'd get more neurotic, and more prone to getting swept around by sentimental and paranormal bullshit. But I/we do seem to have a consensus (I know that sounds strange) that I should develop the 'active' side of my feeling more. That means gaining more conscious ability to do some of the things the subconscious can do, but I don't think it means depriving my subconscious of any of its freedom. Its more like I'm consciously growing or extending in that direction, and maybe my internal communication and coordination improves, but the subconscious part grows and extends also in front of that, not like its getting subdued or pushed into a corner.

In a test of wills I'm not sure who would win. The subconscious part is pretty strong, and its got the magic. Probably if it came to an all out struggle of wills I'd just self destruct. Being at the mercy of my subconscious doesn't scare me though, because there's a fair amount of familiarity and trust, sort of like how you're not afraid your wife will kill you while you sleep. Also, its not like I have much choice. I think all people are at the mercy of things they can't see or control, but try to pretend not to be, as if they feel safer with their eyes closed.

For the most part, I interpret dreams as communication with my subconscious. I guess somebody else already posted that. And in exceptional circumstances I can dialogue with words while awake. Though as other people have pointed out, we dialogue with our subconscious almost continually - that's pretty much where all our thoughts spring from. And conscience is like that. When you say something, like when writing like I am now, and the thought isn't adequately formed, part of you pushes an objection or relevant insight towards the surface. You feel that objection or insight, and if you're receptive to that you help it find words.

The way I do experiments while asleep, is I just ask questions by being interested in things during the day. Then I get interesting dreams as a response. I'm passive during the dreams though, just paying attention. Even my astral projection experiences were done like that. Technically I'm 'lucid', but the subconscious sets the dream up. Then the next day I think about the dream and learn something, and develop further questions. Its like rolling a wheel over rough ground, if you turn your attention in some other direction and stop making use of what you learn, it grinds to a halt. Or its like replanting seed from your harvest, so that you get a crop again the next season.

In addition to dreams, the subconscious can also produce waking events that illustrate ideas, much like it would do with a dream. I realize this sounds crazy from a mechanistic mindset, because there's no currently conceivable way that this can work, and its prone to all kinds of possible fallacies. A lot of people try to shut it down just because they're uncomfortable with it. And on the other side, a lot of people look to the experiences as omens, like their subconscious is some kind of God or authority on what they should do, and it makes them unreasonable and neurotic. My subconscious doesn't ever seem to tell me what to do. It informs, and even criticizes, but I play a critical role in deciding the values that this is based on. Its like an ebb and flow, where what happens is what we agree on. If I try to look to my subconscious as a leader, then it reflects that indecisiveness or passivity back to me, and I become like a dog chasing its tail around. I'm like "what should I do?" and its like "WTF do you want?" This is one of my main criticisms of religious faith, to some extent it seems to me to put the cart before the horse. I don't mean to imply that there's no such thing as right or wrong though. To me these are kind of like rules of logic. If you lie to yourself, you confuse yourself because you can't tell what anything is anymore. There are different kinds of lies, and some of them are what we call moral.

On the subject of dream experiments, an interesting dream experiment for me would be to interact this way with other people. If you want to try this, trying wanting something that I have, preferably something of my experience, or something that I understand. Or just ask a question that interests you. The desire in relation to me seems to produce a kind of channel or connection which allows the muse to produce a dream (if it wants to) that's a hybrid of what you know and what I know, or who you are and who I am. Its like a partial subconscious sharing of identity. And it doesn't have to be very strong to work. Frequently I learn something new that way, since the other person's awareness usually contains some ingredient that I lack. I'm not 100% sure this sort of thing is always a good idea, obviously there's an intimacy there that could be unhealthy. Anyway, try it if it interests you. If I get any dreams that seem to have foreign ingredient, I'll post them.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I could try to push more intellectual control on the 'muse' part, or alternately become more passive and 'channel' the muse more. But if I were to control more, I'll shut down a lot of the creativity and fun for the subconscious part, which it shares with me.

***

But I/we do seem to have a consensus (I know that sounds strange) that I should develop the 'active' side of my feeling more.

***

Being at the mercy of my subconscious doesn't scare me though, because there's a fair amount of familiarity and trust, sort of like how you're not afraid your wife will kill you while you sleep.

***

Technically I'm 'lucid', but the subconscious sets the dream up.

***

In addition to dreams, the subconscious can also produce waking events that illustrate ideas, much like it would do with a dream. I realize this sounds crazy from a mechanistic mindset, because there's no currently conceivable way that this can work, and its prone to all kinds of possible fallacies.

I quoted the things that have most resonance to my experience. I'll start discussion from the last phrase I quoted.

According to many theories abaout quantum illusionary matrix we do indeed create our own realities. Maybe even in a mass that we get into diversing realities based on our choices, fears and assumptions. This has long been in the center of many eastern religions as well as western mysticism. Usually this starts to open up when you either rise your level of lucidity during waking dream or throw your self off the cliff into madness and subconciousness and embrace it (willingly or triggered by some thinks).

This is often referred as aphophenia or solipsism, but I think that those are only intial stages of seeing reality as it is without glinging to delusions that you have limited yourself inside. When you start to free yourself from those delusions, you get to see them reflected upon you and from time to time loose yourself into safe cage of past delusions. This - in a soul revealing sense - is called stage-phenomenon. World around you becomes a stage where you are the subject of play as well as target audience. It usually comes in waves, like during 'psychosic episodes', 'deep meditative states' and on other 'altered states' of conciousness. This is really when world starts to mirror you.

Delusions come in two different forms (anytime when someone gives you two options, he is luring you into dualistic cage. Like this blue pill / red bill con many have fallen under) frist are those delusions of eXistanZe you have been raised and schoold into: how the world works, what is impossible, why everything must be brought to the one way sience (they really claim to be able to tell cause from effect) or some religious truth. Why you are not the authority of your real?ity. Second delusions are those born from you. They are part of your hearts/souls/insert.word.here deffence mechanism against outside influence. Daydreams and nightmares that you spin in as your lense around your true being. They might be in some sense more real that the outside influence, but because they are in a sense counter moves in the chess world plays "against" you, they are still governed by more experienced chess player we call 'consensus reality'. If you play aggressivly with a fear of loosing the game, it starts to reflect those fears upon it's attacks and soon you find yourself battling against conspicrazies, negative spiritworld or dead emotional landscapes. This is how good player it is. If you play without attachment off final outcome, just to experience the 'game' and let it unravel and suprise you who (maybe Keith Moon) can tell what happens. Maybe you get to see both kind of delusions I presented brought to you in a way that after a time you can't take either of those siriously.

The best thing is that you don't have to face theather alone. If you let you'll find people who you can tell what your experiencing (like that in a sense they are your dreamcharacters) and they don't hold you crazy but are also trying to figure out the great mystery (by the great mystery I don't mean the woman [but in a way I'm lying here]).

What I real!ly meant by saying that you are not alone I meant that you're working with your mystical other (no sexism here). I know that it is bold to say that, but way you speak about your 'muse' and you working together, I'm just saying what seems obvious to me. I'm happy for you.

Allthough (and maybe because) I'm familiar with both -
Jungs anima (being a 'man' myself) as inner woman but really being more from outside;
and tantric princible where all things are ultimatly reduced ad reflected throught dance of only two beings that work together, feed each other, opposite each are, doesn't opposite each other and are one - this confuses me from time to time. It's like my subconciosness is around me and somehow in a relationship with me. It's like more beautifull and wonderfull that I can (outside the moments of tranquility and balance between me/us/other) give credit to myself and it reflects - in a loving way - my fears of not being worth it. In some sense it is me, in some sense it is what I'm becoming and in very real sense it most definetly isn't me.

Thank you for letting me open my heart
<3

There was a question in one of the last few posts (too lazy to read through all those huge posts to find it) about how the subconscious can communicate with the conscious mind while you're awake.

I'd like to submit this suggestion...

Like rorschach inkblots.

We see pattern and chaos around us - we look at clouds and I might see Hitler;s face, you might see an Aadvaark. Someone else might see Jesus or a cookie. Into/onto random patterns the mind projects its own meaning, the same way it does into dream images. And perhaps if the subconscious is trying to get through or is loaded with important ideas then when we're attempting to fin meaning in randomness (a ceaseless function of the brain) we can begin to feel our way toward the messages coming from the subconscious? Messages might be the wrong term, might imply something wrong. But I'm writing this in a hurry and can't take the time to search for exactly the right words just now.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Like rorschach inkblots.

I think that's one way. An example of this would be Moses hearing 'God' from a burning bush. The fire is a source of white noise, so his imagination can pull out sounds that form words. It doesn't give the muse enough credit to say that's all it can ever do though. In my experience the semi-random electro-chemical events in the brain are not the only ones it can manipulate. It can perturb the fire also, and it can start the fire, through sunlight in dew drops, or other means. Though I suppose there's a fair amount of variation of capability across muses and circumstances.

Many years ago I collected the birth dates of a dozen women I had made some connection with, and plotted them on a 28 day cycle, which is the 'emotional' biorhythmic cycle in Japanese superstition. At that time in my life I tended to form relationships through emotional affinities. Except for one outlier, they were tightly clustered on one side of the cycle, with all the closest friends having been born a multiple of 28 days from me. The outlier was a woman who I talked to because she shared an interest in theology, but whom was remarkably opaque to me emotionally, and she was exactly out of sync, 28n+14 days. This could not plausibly be attributed to chance - I had enough data for the likelihood of a 'coincidence' to be fantastically small, something like 1e-10, though I've forgotten exactly. (When I've related this story online, its amazing how people have confidently disputed my math without seeing any of the numbers or knowing anything about my understanding of statistics.) So how to make sense of this? Ridged cycles that don't drift over a period of years seem to be unphysical, there's no apparent mechanism for it. And its also misfit against my sense of beauty and nature also, it looks like an invention of men. I think it is an invention, likewise with numerology, astrology, and most 'metaphysical' theories. But suppose you were a mind, subconscious or otherwise, and you could perturb possibilities not only within a particular brain, but for any system that is sufficiently sensitive, unstable, and vaguely defined (in a quantum sense). You'd have something like a distributed brain, operating on unusual time scales, provided that you had a semi-logical book-keeping mechanism for organizing and remembering thoughts. I think numerology and astrology are a small part of such a system, a relatively primitive language within the mind of fate, so to speak.

On the topic of communicating with your subconscious mind, another way is to shift your sense of identity, thinking of yourself as your subconscious, speaking for it. I think what I'm talking about here is basically what people do when they 'channel' writings. You feel what your subconscious wants to say, because you become its mouth, and from that place you can form the feelings into words.

It appears likely to me that a lot of people's subconscious minds regard themselves as infallible. An awful lot of disfunctional human behavior seems to make sense if I make that assumption. I think they are are fallible though, and the wiser and more honest minds are aware of that.

Maybe the best way to communicate with the unconscious part of ourselves is to not do so at all. Perhaps the unconscious is not sending us any messages at all, just a vast jumble of day residue and misfiled or as yet unfiled information. Perhaps the “messages” we get are a result of our instinctive conscious interpretation of this jumble of incoherent stuff, rather than the stuff itself. The messages would be pretty damn useless if that's the case, and possibly be real trouble if the "user" manages to interpret the chaos of his (or his patient’s) underworld badly.

So shouldn't we then just ignore our unconscious, let it rattle on as ever?

Nope.

It may be chaotic, but the unconscious part of us is still the largest part of us, especially in the information and spirituality departments. But maybe it would be best to simply learn to explore the unconscious as it is, rather than attempting to seek out and incorrectly define non-existent messages that rise randomly to its surface.

Exploration of this vast underworld could be the single most valuable thing a sentient being could do in life, simply because it might expose him to experiences, wisdom, and new levels of being that he otherwise would never know about. Perhaps such exploration might unite a being with his soul, and change everything, period. Perhaps this unity will finally enable easy access to other beings’ souls, and to the machinery of reality itself, which would allow access both to Shadowofwind’s muse and Labyrint’s personal reality engine. And of course much more that we are currently incapable of imagining might become available.

I tend to believe that nature has provided many "stops" to prevent even the most passive exploration of our unconscious, including perhaps our natural need to explain and interpret everything, especially the things we cannot (or need not) understand. So instead of exploring our unconscious, we choose to explain it in terms we can readily understand (i.e., interpreting dreams). That’s a pretty tough hurdle, considering the billions of years nature has had to set up behaviors and instincts that prevent its progeny from venturing into chaotic realms that might damage them, and it. I have a feeling though that very advanced, call it transcendental, lucid dreaming, might be a way around many of those stops.

I'm rambling now, so, for those "tl;dr" folks out there, let me paraphrase: the unconscious is an underworld of our own minds, which on active conscious study is in chaos and cannot be interpreted; it is sending no messages. Instead, it is a deep sea of memories, thoughts, knowledge, and history whose surface -- and only its surface -- is just ethereally reflecting our own existence back up at us. So, instead of attempting to find meaning in a confusing reflection, why not learn to dive into the mirror itself?

That vision of the unconscious sounds kind of vast to me!

It's known that the sub/unconscious can solve problems while we sleep, in fact that's part of its function, to sort through day residue and problems and try to work toward the solution. Or to help the conscious mind do so on waking interpretation.

But I'm beginning to understand what you're talking about.

Unfortunately I can't even seem to achieve lucidity at all these days, much less your advanced level of it!! Wish I could join you in that!! Maybe one day I will. It does sound interesting - rather than interpret the "messages" that bubble to the surface just plunge right in and explore.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

That vision of the unconscious sounds kind of vast to me!

It's known that the sub/unconscious can solve problems while we sleep, in fact that's part of its function, to sort through day residue and problems and try to work toward the solution. Or to help the conscious mind do so on waking interpretation.

... or could it be that we are simply creating messages and meaning from what's reflected up at us from the unconscious, sort of like the way we "see" codes in the Bible, or meaning in paintings that the artist never intended? We could just be consciously "helping" ourselves, and the unconscious' function is something else altogether. The conscious mind might be doing all the work, but for lack of an explanation as to how or why, which might be beyond us or just humbling, we decide that we must be getting help from our unconscious. I don't entirely believe that, but it is a thought...

Unfortunately I can't even seem to achieve lucidity at all these days, much less your advanced level of it!! Wish I could join you in that!! Maybe one day I will. It does sound interesting - rather than interpret the "messages" that bubble to the surface just plunge right in and explore.

Darkmatters, it sounds to me like you're already well on the way toward a chance at taking that plunge -- give it time, and never surrender.

Originally Posted by Sageous

it is sending no messages. Instead, it is a deep sea of memories, thoughts, knowledge, and history whose surface -- and only its surface -- is just ethereally reflecting our own existence back up at us. So, instead of attempting to find meaning in a confusing reflection, why not learn to dive into the mirror itself?

I mostly agree with this, with a qualification. Generally speaking, my subconscious prefers not to think and interact through sequences of signs and symbols, it would be too limiting. However, there are also occasions where it does that, and does it very clearly and very well. So I think it would be arrogant and foolish not to look for meaning in those circumstances. Here's an example to illustrate, pardon if I mentioned this one previously. I was walking down the street at night in winter, and took my left glove off to more easily open a can of pop. (Normally I would use might right hand.) The pssst from opening it startled me, and my arm did a weird flick, causing my ring to sail off my finger, even though it was on fairly snug. It fell through a shallow grate, where I wasn't able to retrieve it until the next day. When I shared this anecdote with my partner, she confirmed that she had started a relationship with another man that evening. Consciously I had no idea that this was happening. Independent of the question of how my subconscious knew, clearly it did know, and it found a way to tell me. Would you consider that event to not be a message? Just a part of an incoherent jumble? I think that would be an insulting mindset for me to take. Like I said, messages of this type are only one facet of my relationship with my subconscious, and not the most important part. For me, learning to interact with my subconscious in a more intelligent way would probably be fairly similar to what you were saying. But the subconscious can do that explicit, message delivering kind of communicating also.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Darkmatters, it sounds to me like you're already well on the way toward a chance at taking that plunge -- give it time, and never surrender.

You just made something click in my head.

When I first discovered DV and read EtWoLD I started having lucid dreams, slowly - at first no more than one a month, but worked up to 2 in one month, and then suddenly I stopped having them. Now I've revived my interest, but I'm not making any progress, and I've been aware that I don't have the same drive and ambition for it that I did in the beginning... and now I think it's because I decided, subliminally I suppose, that I really prefer nonlucid dreams over lucid ones.

They tend to have a different quality and for me at least, nonlucids are more epic and surreal, while my lucids tend to be pretty mundane and mostly take place in my bedroom or house. Kinda dull!

I need to ponder this for a bit. I mean damn - no matter how hard I try, im sure I'll never succeed in having more than a few lucids in a month - or even if I do, still the non-lucids will far outnumber them. I need to get that burning desire back.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I mostly agree with this, with a qualification. Generally speaking, my subconscious prefers not to think and interact through sequences of signs and symbols, it would be too limiting. However, there are also occasions where it does that, and does it very clearly and very well. So I think it would be arrogant and foolish not to look for meaning in those circumstances. Here's an example to illustrate, pardon if I mentioned this one previously. I was walking down the street at night in winter, and took my left glove off to more easily open a can of pop. (Normally I would use might right hand.) The pssst from opening it startled me, and my arm did a weird flick, causing my ring to sail off my finger, even though it was on fairly snug. It fell through a shallow grate, where I wasn't able to retrieve it until the next day. When I shared this anecdote with my partner, she confirmed that she had started a relationship with another man that evening. Consciously I had no idea that this was happening. Independent of the question of how my subconscious knew, clearly it did know, and it found a way to tell me. Would you consider that event to not be a message? Just a part of an incoherent jumble? I think that would be an insulting mindset for me to take. Like I said, messages of this type are only one facet of my relationship with my subconscious, and not the most important part. For me, learning to interact with my subconscious in a more intelligent way would probably be fairly similar to what you were saying. But the subconscious can do that explicit, message delivering kind of communicating also.

At the risk of being arrogant and foolish, I could certainly consider that event to not be a message. So could you.

Why couldn't this event have been nothing more than an amazing coincidence? After all, your hand may have flung the ring, but at the moment it did, were you suddenly filled with dread that your partner was moving on? Shouldn't you have been? Did you make the connection before or after your partner told you what she did? If not, then was there really any communication going on? If your subconscious found a way to tell you something but you didn't listen, did it actually tell you? It is all you, after all. Why would it be insulting for you to believe that sometimes things just happen, things that have nothing to do with your mind -- conscious or unconscious -- at all? The world does keep spinning without us, and randomness does happen. Sometimes the surreal nature of those random events forces you -- perhaps in the name of your own sanity -- to believe that "your subconscious can do that explicit, message delivering kind of communicating." But is such a rationalization really the only possible conclusion, to the point where you would be insulted to think anything else?

As I mentioned somewhere above, people are amazingly good at attaching meaning to anything, and they tend to focus on attaching meaning to anything odd or coincidental. We are exposed to an enormous amount of stimuli every day, and, if we are looking for meaningful moments, we can all find something that happened to us yesterday that was surely a sign or a communication, "now that I think about it." If we really look. ... of course, I could be wrong!

Now, if I didn't piss you off too much with all that, hopefully you'll answer the one big question that your post raised for me: If your subconscious "prefers not to think and interact through sequences of signs and symbols," how does it prefer to interact? If you've already answered this above somewhere, sorry for asking again!

And, all that said, I really think we may be on the same page here; though we might be reading in different directions.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

You just made something click in my head.

When I first discovered DV and read EtWoLD I started having lucid dreams, slowly - at first no more than one a month, but worked up to 2 in one month, and then suddenly I stopped having them. Now I've revived my interest, but I'm not making any progress, and I've been aware that I don't have the same drive and ambition for it that I did in the beginning... and now I think it's because I decided, subliminally I suppose, that I really prefer nonlucid dreams over lucid ones.

They tend to have a different quality and for me at least, nonlucids are more epic and surreal, while my lucids tend to be pretty mundane and mostly take place in my bedroom or house. Kinda dull!

I need to ponder this for a bit. I mean damn - no matter how hard I try, im sure I'll never succeed in having more than a few lucids in a month - or even if I do, still the non-lucids will far outnumber them. I need to get that burning desire back.

Darkmatters:

First, be assured that if you expect that your lucids will be dull and limited, they will be. And, if you are sure that you will never succeed in having more than a few lucids a month then, sure enough, you won’t!

I can honestly say that I have had many LD’s that were far more epic, surreal, rich, deep, mind-bending, and just plain impressive than any non-LD I can remember (and I can remember a lot of ‘em). By the same token, I have had many LD’s that were far duller, emptier, and more bereft of any meaning than even the lowliest non-LD’s that I can remember. To this day I still suffer many a “gray” LD where I simply can’t get the dreaming motor started and everything is just plain boring. But are you really seeking lucid dreams just to be entertained? I’ve read a lot of your posts, Darkmatters, and I don’t think so.

Now…

I haven’t valued LD’s for their entertainment value in a very long time, so maybe I can point out another use they might have (as if I haven’t already on this thread, but bear with me). Lucid dreaming offers us a near perfect tool for exploring the world of dreams, the unconscious, the soul, and perhaps our very place in this reality. This is because through LD’ing we are able thwart nature and cross its long-protected boundaries to explore our unconscious minds, our total beings. A lot could be learned from that.

So maybe the reason to continue isn’t excitement; maybe you might find some incentive in what might be learned, how you might grow as a person by connecting with the rest of your mind. Hell, even if you never LD again, the wisdom and psychic strength you’ll pick up as you develop LD’ing “skills” like advanced self awareness and state testing, will be reward enough. LD’ing, and the discipline it demands, has intrinsic value that trumps pretty pictures ever time. I think.

I hope you might consider these things, and others that are being presented on this amazing thread, while you ponder the value of pursuing LD’s. Oh, and don’t forget that no matter what you do, those epic and surreal non-LD’s that you have will be waiting for you in your psychic wings.

Good luck lighting up that desire... the matches are wet right now, but they might dry out someday.

Well ok, I know what a big part of the problem is that I failed to mention - Galantamine. It causes WILDs, which tend to begin as false awakenings - in your room or house usually.

Also, when I started taking Galantamine was when I derailed form having natural LDs.

I think I'm working through something in my mind, and hopefully I can break through my blockages and turn on the LDing switch again. I probably should lock up the Galantamine and stop using it - get back to frequent RCs and Puffin's Sporadic Awareness technique.

Oh, almost forgot to say - I am interested in LDing for deeper reasons, but dammit, I haven't had enough fun with it yet!!! I want to have some lucid sex that lasts more then 3 seconds, and explore crazy surreal dream worlds and have epic lucid battles against hordes of invading aliens like Oneironaut does!! THEN I'll happily move on to the more life-enhancing stuff. But I'd like to pick up the sword and use it a few times before breaking it. I have a deep interest in both, but I hope I don't have to bypass the fun immature stuff completely! Maybe I could alternate back and forth?

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Well ok, I know what a big part of the problem is that I failed to mention - Galantamine. It causes WILDs, which tend to begin as false awakenings - in your room or house usually.

Also, when I started taking Galantamine was when I derailed form having natural LDs.

I think I'm working through something in my mind, and hopefully I can break through my blockages and turn on the LDing switch again. I probably should lock up the Galantamine and stop using it - get back to frequent RCs and Puffin's Sporadic Awareness technique.

Agreed. Galantamine can easily become a crutch that allows you to skip some discipline -- been there myself with that stuff, though I do still take it when I'm feeling particularly lazy. It's always best to go back to the "natural" discipline and routines that train your consciousness, rather than your physiology, to awaken during a dream.

That said, don't ignore the doors that false awakening cracks open for you. After all, once you recognize that a FA is just that, it gets a lot easier to become lucid. Also, you wouldn't believe some of the places I've had FA's and still fail to become lucid -- we're talking trees, ships, shopping malls, even freight trains. It's a real kick in the pants sometimes...

Good luck with that switch, Darkmatters!

What my life needs at this point is an inspiring training montage.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Why couldn't this event have been nothing more than an amazing coincidence? After all, your hand may have flung the ring, but at the moment it did, were you suddenly filled with dread that your partner was moving on? Shouldn't you have been? Did you make the connection before or after your partner told you what she did? If not, then was there really any communication going on? If your subconscious found a way to tell you something but you didn't listen, did it actually tell you? It is all you, after all. Why would it be insulting for you to believe that sometimes things just happen, things that have nothing to do with your mind -- conscious or unconscious -- at all?

I'll try to illustrate with another anecdote and an analogy....I had a lucid dream once where I was playing go, and was outsmarted by my opponent. I didn't just dream the thought or feeling of being outsmarted, I was aware of the sequence of moves, and after the last one it was clear that my opponent's board awareness had been better than mine. I had other dreams on that theme also, illustrations of the independence and versatility of the intelligence that creates my dreams. And the meaning isn't just implied by the image in the dream, I feel the intent also. With very few exceptions, I never have a dream more than once. A point is illustrated one time, from a particular standpoint or within a particular scope, and that's it. I remember the experience, so there's no reason to have it again. But I can ask internally about what is behind the image, and I get information that way. Although my limitations and preconceptions do skew my interpretations, the image doesn't hang off in space by itself, with the meaning being entirely a matter of speculation.

In my job, I'm the only person that I'm aware of, in a group of about 15 people, that doesn't have a PhD. Fortunately, for the most part, when I attempt to communicate an idea, people hear what I'm saying. They don't twist their interpretations to fit their preconceptions about what I'm smart enough to be trying to say. But I have worked with academics in the past that have done that, and found it frustrating, as if they've conspired to turn me into a special needs mime. My sense of what my subconscious does or does not do has been taught by my subconscious, through a long series of lesson-like experiences. Its not as if I had one weird coincidence, forced that to fit some preconceived pattern that I read in a book by Carlos Castaneda, then kept doing that ever since. In the ring example, its not like I just jumped and a loosely fit ring flew off. My arm spasmed and whipped in a bizarre manner, somehow getting a snugly fit ring over a large knuckle. There isn't even anything supernatural about this, since we're not addressing how my subconscious knew what it knew. Maybe I picked up on some subtle clues that I overlooked consciously. And yet you're suggesting its a coincidence. Why? Do you want it to be for some reason? Otherwise, objectively the 'coincidence' interpretation seems to be pretty implausible. Is it common for your arm to act like it has a mind of its own? Its as if someone slapped me across the face, and you say "maybe she wasn't really mad at you, her hand just slipped". Or your own hand slaps you on the face, and you say the same thing. What could be motivating such an interpretation? You don't like it when people derive exotic conclusions from limited data, or based on faulty reasoning. Yet you know I haven't derived my perspective from this one anecdote, I've shared a lot of other examples with you also. And you know that I think for myself, and maybe you've noticed that I'm critical to a fault. It almost seems that you're not speaking to what I'm saying, but to someone or something else. Are you afraid of your own subconscious, that it might start acting in an embarrassing or erratic manner, and you'll look like a fool or go insane? Or maybe we'll rend the coherent rationality of our cosmos, and open up a portal to spirit possession and chaos (or worse, religion)? Or are you just concerned about people getting too wrapped up in weird phenomena, and missing the more important part of the picture? I'm on board with that to a very significant extent. But it needn't compel us to discard objectivity about what we experience, even when, or especially when, it doesn't seem to conform to how we would like the world to be.

But if the point that you were trying to make wasn't that the ring experience was 'random', but more that it was an event that was in harmony with what was going on, without an aim or motive behind it such as a person might have when talking, then I could agree with that. My subconscious does produce events that have definite points to them. However, my motive is not entirely independent from it, so if I were to change my way of thinking about this, those patterns would change to some degree also. We see this same sort of issue with communication between people. Usually when i say something, I'm not trying to push someone towards some particular choice or decision, I'm trying to provide information or perspective that I believe is relevant to the issue at hand, so that they can make a better choice. If I persist, its usually not because I object to the choice they're intending to make, its because it appears to me that the information has been misunderstood. (Though in recent years I'm a lot more indifferent about that also.) Some other people try to interpret everything in terms of the pursuit of a goal or a policy, "what is he trying to get me to do". So if I point out something that weighs against a particular action, they'll assume I'm advocating an alternative action. But often I'm actually favoring the first action, I'm just trying to get all possible downsides on the table so that we can be confident its the right one. So if they're trying to interpret everything in terms of what I'm trying to get them to do, a lot of confusion will result. I can see these kinds of misunderstandings with muses also, and maybe that's a big part of what you were getting at.

To answer the rest of your question, no, I wasn't suddenly seized with fear that my relationship might be ending. But the event did help draw the truth to the surface a lot sooner than would have happened otherwise, which enabled me to adjust a lot easier and at a lot more favorable time. In my previous relationship before that, I did not understand what was going on when my flame's affections began going elsewhere, and the deception and resulting confusion made it quite a bit more difficult for me to deal with. Also, the ring experience was a relatively early illustration that my subconscious knows stuff that I'm not consciously aware of. Not that there's anything revolutionary about this, but it was a step in my self awareness.

On the question of how my subconscious prefers to interact....That's not an easy question to answer, since the way my subconscious thinks and experiences the world is very different from how I do. Obviously, there is the everyday, every minute process of thoughts springing out of darkness, consciously coalescing into choices and results, and falling back into the darkness and seed the next cycle. Obviously that's quite a bit more fundamental than the occasional oracular event, since we wouldn't even be intelligent without it. Beyond that, I think its probably desirable for me to shift my vantage point or identity so that I'm interpreting experiences from a standpoint more akin to that of my subconscious, or at least to be able to do that more. In metaphysical circles there's a lot of derision about 'mere words', where all the important things are deep and ineffable. I don't share that view: words and concrete things seem to me to be as important as anything else. But its still seems that a person can build up a vast structure of word-ideas without much understanding to show for it. Look at almost any philosophy written by by academics in recent decades (centuries?) as an illustration of this. So I guess my subconscious would like to see me step back and experience simple things that it knows but which are nevertheless new or foreign to my way of thinking. Part of that process of course is to be temperate in the formation of judgments. Every thought I hold about how things definitely are inhibits my becoming aware of alternatives. And on the other hand, if I'm all pothead-like and hold only vague thoughts which I evaluate solely on how they feel, I won't develop in the way I want to either. So I try to have some fair and fluid sense of how much my various thoughts are true and how much they're conjecture, so that I've got something that can grow, but I don't harden it into a dogma and kill it. This was the lesson of one of my first transcendent experiences, which I probably mentioned earlier, and its naturally a recurring theme.

My subconscious is also like conscience or intuition that informs my thinking. For example, while I said "I don't share that view", I paid attention to how I felt when I said that, because my subconscious would object if I was misrepresenting my true view, or speaking against what it feels and knows to be true. And then a thought would form articulating that objection. Maybe I've eaten most of the obvious, low hanging fruit in this regard though. So what's left is largely what I don't hear, what I don't understand how to interpret. I do feel there's something there though, that I'm not hearing. This is part of why I said I "mostly" agree with what you said before, is it was a suggestion to relate to the subconscious in a different way, not trying to treat it as if its an invisible conscious intellect.