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Somebody necro bumped a 7 year old thread over on AboveTopSecret.com that written by somebody who did remote viewing for the government through astral projecting. While I do think what he was doing was dreaming, I still believe the guy who wrote it. The information he provides is very accurate, and a good read for anyone interested in this sort of thing.
Remote-viewing 'asset' speaks out, page 1
There's plenty of leaked reports detailing the american government's interest in pursuing remote viewing back in the 50s. It's likely, in my opinion, that they discarded the research after realizing it was all bullshit. Then again, if they found something substantial to it, perhaps they just changed their policy to make it harder for that sort of information to leak out in the future.
Well according to this guy, this remote viewing program was more recent, like the 90's. I have to disagree with the bullshit conclusion. Remote viewing is a pretty useless skill when doing it on your own, but it can yield results with a team using proper protocols.
As somewhat of a side note....It takes a higher than top secret clearance to do almost anything in the defense research industry, a merely 'top secret' clearance is almost useless. Hundreds of thousands of people have clearances, and a fairly large portion of those are above top secret. Of those, most of are semi-corrupt, semi-incompetent boring bureacrats. Think 'Wally' in the Dilbert strip, but with less motivation. The Hollywood concept of "Above Top Secret" is a joke - not much glamour there in reality. If there have been remote viewing programs, in my opinion and experience it doesn't really mean anything. Its true that there are weapons programs that build things that really work, but most of the research that those were built on was done decades ago, and the work in those areas of research tend to be a lot higher caliber than the more fringe stuff that one hears about.
I used to work for a company that handled everything from Classified to Top Secret materials, though I was never given clearance and my job didn't require it, it was interesting all the strange little rules you had to follow and redundancies in place. They manufactured circuit boards for military technology and so obviously there was a risk of this technology leaking to China or Russia or whatever. Incidentally, they had areas taped off and if you entered that area with a cellphone you risked something like 20 years in prison. Anyways, I don't mean to say that the theory of Remote Viewing is bullshit, just that it seems they didn't achieve the practical merit they were looking for, from my impression of leaked information. But I find what I've read of this guy's story to be authentic, coinciding with my own studies of Astral Travel. Such as this
Quote:
Astral travel is as fast or as slow as you will it to be. There is absolutely no inertia, allowing you to accelerate instantly. You can also travel in time as well as space. Experience is quasi-objective, or quasi-subjective, depending on how you look at things. I don't believe you are actually leaving your body. That part is a self-constructed illusion inherent to human psychology / physiology through which a much deeper phenomena is experienced. However, it is through the paradigm of 'leaving the body' and OBE terminolgy that facilitate communication of the experiences. More on that some other time.
Thanks, that quote is the same conclusion I've reached, and maybe that's the first time I've seen that anywhere. I don't have much insight into the 'much deeper phenomena' though.
Unfortunately it's a mystery to me as well and I cannot offer anything more than speculation as to what is actually going on, especially since it's been such a long time since I've astral traveled or done anything similar so the sensation feels rather distant and I can do little more than recycle what I remember perceiving the experiences to be rather than remember the experiences themselves.
Its not distant for me that way, or not more than it ever was. But my awareness of what's going on only goes so deep. I think one limitation is I don't have adequate paradigms through which to understand what's going on. Often I have dreams like this, where I feel there's a ton of content right below the surface, but there's nothing that I understand how to pull out and think about. By way of analogy, its as if I can only see visible light and all the information is in ultraviolet. I think the lack of adequate paradigms isn't even the most fundamental issue though. To some degree I don't have the paradigms because there isn't a need for them: its the wrong time and place.
Lately I've been a bit apathetic. I know this stuff is real, but I'm not sure what its for or what to do about it. I don't think that simply continuing to push the envelope on what I'm aware of is the right approach. I think there's other transformation, more closely related to emotional sincerity, that's necessary first. But I'm not sure what to do about that either, besides continuing to be changed by living, and its not clear to me that train goes anywhere either. Its like being in school one's whole life, but with no books and no teachers in the school who know anything. I learn things - I can point to something definite that I've learned pretty much every week. But it seems so small, like scraps.
Although I no longer get exotic experiences to the extent that I did the previous few years, I can still sense the fate that causes them, sort of lurking in the background. I guess an important part of progress would be understanding my relationship in relation to that daemon, putting myself in right relationship with it by adjusting and developing that part of myself. This is all quite mysterious and cryptic also though.
I've thought about this as well, and after more careful consideration I had to ask myself, why would they just abandon such research? They must have found absolute proof that none of it is possible, otherwise they'd have no reason to abandon it...they would have wanted to go on and be the first to make real discoveries. Also science has never claimed to have proof that such phenomena are incapable of existing. So if there's a possibility, they would continue to explore it. The psychic world is a whole new frontier that science still needs to discover and explore, and perhaps they have been, with the utmost secrecy. Wouldn't that make more sense, for why those programs suddenly seemed to vanish...not because it was bullshit, but because they actually found something and realized that it was a huge security risk having all those people involved. So they shut those old programs down and probably continued experiments and research with much less people involved, in higher security.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Why do you think it is not effective/useless when done alone?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cusp
I hope that isn't true. Where did you hear that?Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowofwind
I find it hard to believe that they would have just given up. Especially considering the importance of some of the implications it has for military/government/etc use. How often do we give up on stuff like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Suppose you're a scientist who believes in remote viewing, and you have a government program manager who also believes in it. He still can't fund you unless he can convince his higher-ups. The top of that pyramid is congress, and all their imperatives are about public perceptions, and the desires of their campaign donors and the companies they trade stock in. If you can't harness your research in a way that will make someone a lot of money, or which will be popular in the eyes of the public, people will talk about it but it generally won't happen. I have a hard time believing that remote viewing can pass either test for a sustained period. I think I'm relatively strong psychically, but I can't do anything with it that would be considered 'useful' using any of the metrics that people care about. And I haven't seen indications that other people can either. I think its probably just as well, for now anyway.
I used to work in a building which, from what I read on the internet, contains alien artifacts. Its ridiculous, secret government agencies aren't really like that. Agencies like NASIC are flush with money, but if someone tried to explain what they do in detail, you might be mildly horrified by the civil liberties implications, but other than that it would put you to sleep.
Most people think of 'the government' as if its a godlike personality with a will. Its really a collection of hundreds of thousands of individuals with their own personal goals relating to pay and job security. It has a tremendous amount of inertia, with no over-reaching, conscious agenda aside from whatever keeps the machine grinding along. The President is nominally in charge, but to a large extent is captive to the interests of the different agencies and the information they provide. For example, from my perspective, most of the leaks and political back and forth about the war in Iraq was part of a turf war between the Department of Defense and the State Department, it wasn't even being driven by domestic politics or politicians in the way it appeared to most people from afar.
One of the bad things about secret programs is since there's no public visibility there's almost no accountability, which is why most secret programs are so disfunctional. On the upside, that helps prevent a worse abuse of power.
I didn't "hear" this anywhere, its based on my own experience. Of course that experience is limited, and other people will have other experiences. But mine seems to be pretty common in the 'military industrial complex', even though you won't hear such things from people who are still trying to cash in on it. Most people can't stand a lot of strong moral contradiction. Generally speaking, if they do national security work they're either sociopaths, consciously cynical and publicly dishonest, or they do their best to sedate themselves with patriotic and religious blinders because they've got to take care of their families. Usually both dynamics are in play. That's how I see it anyway. Yes, that's a dark thing to say, but I'm quite thoroughly pissed off by what I've seen and experienced.
The reality is that most government corruption regarding classified through top secret issues stems less from national interests and more from personal interests, just as shadowofwind said. There's a power grab for government contracts, everyone wants a piece of the pie and it's all about making the product that astonishes people the most. With the advent of internet, satellites, thermo-optics, and other information technology, there simply isn't much need to pursue something as whimsical sounding as psychic warfare. Psyops is all about manufacturing public opinion around the interests of the power-players, actual psychic warfare is mostly considered passe. There are still plenty of scientists with sincere interest but they aren't being funded. Their military and tactical benefits are considered obsolete and if anything RV serves as a tool which can be utilized by the technologically deprived so they're much more interested in manufacturing the public opinion that it's all pseudoscience in an effort to stop others from pursuing such research.
This is one of the most tin-hat things I've seen on DV.
That being said, I'm worried.
The guy in that thread explains it quite well when someone challenges him to prove himself by RVing a laboratory he works in.Quote:
Originally Posted by nina
Basically, if you're RVing by yourself, you're trying to see something that you couldn't otherwise go and check out normally. Therefore, you have no way to verify what you see. If you do it stuff you can check, that's rather pointless.
Besides being outright wrong about your RVing, there is also the archetypal filtering. What you see may not be literal. For example, Nomad posted that he dreamed about a restaurant that had an oval whale sculpture. When he went to that restaurant to check it out, there was instead an oval painting of a whale hunt scene. For RVing to be of any use, you need several people to view the target to get more data points to try and make sense of.
Hmm....if you say so, but a few of the times I've done it, I saw exactly what was there. I think it's different for everyone, and you're generalizing too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cusp
In my experience, their are karmic or similar limitations on what a person can or can not see. I've been aware that part of a picture is missing, then later that missing part proves crucial to decision making in relation to what I was seeing. In counter-terrorism work, it would be criminally stupid to interrogate someone or blow up what looks like a training camp based on remote viewing. It's not that the technique might be misused, it's absolutely certain to be misused, based on how drone surveillance data is already misused. And like I said, there are no significant checks and balances since it's all secret.
I agree with Cusp that having several people involved can help, but I also agree with Nina about generalizing about what's possible based on personal anecdotes. By way of analogy, a team of scientists is much better than one, but one Gauss can be better than a whole university.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. I didn't mean to present what I wrote as my argument for why it's a useless skill, but what that guy wrote in that other thread. I would have quoted him, but not sure quoting other forums is allowed. The context of the thread I linked in the OP had me a little muddled. The guy who wrote it is describing himself as using astral projection, but uses remote viewing protocols to deal with the results, so I've got the two intertwined in my mind right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by nina
I say it's useless because I can't use it to win the lottery. Technically I could with a good team, using (for my local 6/49) using 6 sets of 49 pictures to represent the numbers, and then giving the team a separate target for each number. But the logistics of trying to match a lot of descriptions against 294 pictures is a little overwhelming. There is a new paper rock scissors lottery here where you have to get 14 wins, and I was seriously considering that one for remote viewing. Only problem is requires 14 targets, but I only need to match those against 49 pictures (14 targets times 3 possibilities).
.
It seems to me that a difficulty with the lottery, is you're fighting against the minds of a million other people who are trying to win. If you can find something that's orthogonal to what other people want, or even which assists other people in what they want, then its a lot easier.
I think this difficulty is a primary reason why most people don't seem to be very 'psychic'. They're all in competition over jobs and lovers and whatnot and their aims tend to cancel each other out. But in a rare moment where a person's intent is in harmony with everyone else's, suddenly they have a lot of power.
As a slightly different way of describing this....we're assisted by familiar spirits which are bored by things like successful gambling. They'll just as soon amuse themselves by building up someone's confidence with small wins then watching them lose big. But if you're undertaking something that advances what they want, then they'll help you. The classic catch of course is that if your aim is immoral, then the immoral spirits that you cast your lot with will betray you eventually.
Actually, I was practicing astral projection, not RV. I went OBE, went outside the house, and I saw bronze sculptures in the yard. One depicted a scene of a whale destroying a whaling ship. The next day I saw the exact same picture in a curio store on an original cloth artwork.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cusp
I have also practiced RV with some interesting results.
In my experience on the Dream and Astral Planes, some of the RV'ers are cool, some are slaves, many attack me, and they constantly watch me. They are always on the Astral Plane.
david morehouse
I think that for me astral projection and remote viewing are mostly the same phenomena in slightly different forms. The difference is what aspects of my awareness I project and what metaphors I explain it to myself with.
The elderly owners of the house I'm living in spy on their tenants to make sure nothing immoral goes on. I find it annoying, but the rent is cheap so I'm waiting it out since I'll have to move again soon anyway. Along similar lines, Yahoo and Google parse my e-mail for advertising purposes. Facebook monitors everything that way, and is unscrupulous about who they sell it to. My company monitors everything that goes in and out of my computer. I'm being watched in all kinds of ways. Anyway, I experienced being spied on during a semi lucid dream last week. I wouldn't be able to distinguish spying by remote viewers from my subconscious alerting me that I was being watched or monitored by other means. In the dream it seemed like a remote viewer, but we'd been talking about that on this site, so who knows.
It seems higly unlikely the government is spending much time on this compared to higher forms of cryptography, but they do spend efforts on various forms of psychology. You never know what someone valuable on the "other side" is likely to be influenced by. If we have a psy unit they have to have one also, just to see if what we're doing is worth a damn, even when nothing ever comes out of it.
It's amazing the projects that have been proposed and tried. I was recently reading about nuclear programs around the world and items created and abandoned by our government. Interesting shit.
As for sucurity clearance, I had to get clearance to handle military chips for a "military and government division" while working for a technology company, and then again when working for an environmental engineering company that did a lot of work for the government. It's very common and there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who have had to have various clearances for certain materials, most of which seemed fairly mundane when examined. The good stuff is usually blacked out even at TOP levels or classified as something inconspicuous, such as a high budget for "Facility Maintenance."
Since everything is on a 'need to know' basis, somebody who has much higher than a Top Secret clearance doesn't have more visibility into other secret programs than someone who has no clearance at all.
A high budget for 'facility maintenance' sounds more to me like someone is embezzling money, and that definitely goes on. But that's the problem, since everything is hidden, if you're not yourself a part of the accounting process there's no way to tell.
From my experience, the Stargate program has a secret Dream Corps which is mor adept on the Drem Plane.
Well
No government agency made those sharks swim to shore, (in front of my avatar mandala) in answer to C's dream question of, "Why would anyone put a saltwater swimming pool so close to the beach?".
No snoopy government agency made that magazine put Mzzkc's avatar on the front cover, the same week he talked to me in the now locked thread about Nick Newports Lucidology 101 or 102.
That Adelaide mag called, "Rip it up" comes out weekly and is free.
I googled its title, "Rip it up" and got Bill Halley old hit, "Rip it up".
I’m gonna rock it up
I'm gonna rip it up*
I'm gonna shake it up*
I'm gonna break it up*
I'm gonna lock it up*
At the ball tonight
Then 13 days later this world was hit with its biggest Earth Quake since sismic records have been kept.
And no government agency made that happen.
http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/dream-...oaded-123389/*
Edit:
The link dont work sorry. Click my name on left, go to my profile, click on "find all threads started ny debraJane then look for:
*** Dream Synchronicity game - Reloaded***
And read the first post.
Or chech-out the original dream synchronicity game thread I started at Mzzkc encouraging. That thread was opened in Febuary last year.