Why is there some controversy about OBE/AP being real ?

Hello,

Six or more months ago, I've experienced conscious sleep paralysis and it seemed so incredible to me that I decided to look for more information about the subject on the internet. This is how I've discovered lucid dreaming to be a really well known practice. After reading up a lot of stuff about it, I have been able to lucid dream quite frequently along with a couple more sleep paralysis episodes. I've been wondering for quite a long time what to do when I'm consciously awake in SP and this is eventually how I find about OBE/AP. At the moment, I would say OBE and AP describe the same phenomenom, are they not ?

During an episode of sleep paralysis, I've tried to focus and sit up on my bed. I imagined myself sitting up eyes closed for a few seconds, and when I opened them again, I saw a floating hand raising from my real one. However this led to nothing particular because I have indeed been able to sit up but vibrations were so overwhelming that I couldn't move any further. So I've looked up for more information about sleep paralysis and stumbled across robertpeterson.org/asp.htm. The last paragraph made me realize that I didn't kept my eyes closed long enough when trying to move, and I think that's why I saw this floating hand raising from my "real" one...

This morning I had to wake up early and went back home around 10 AM feeling a bit sleep deprived so I thought it would be a good try. It took me like 30 minutes trying before waking up in SP, and there I was. So I kept my eyes closed, trying to "push forward" my consciousness, really focusing on the will to move next to my kitchen (~3 meters from my bed). I felt my legs moving up mid air, like if they lost all their weight, they seemed to float in a weird way. But It was not really working as I was not able to get fully out of bed. And then I found the tiny missing step : trying to slip off my bed meanwhile. Like if I wanted to roll over, but without rolling you know. Success !

I felt like I was floating away from my bed to end up standing in front of my kitchen. I opened my eyes and I was still feeling vibrations through my body but in a really less intense way, and most importantly, totally in control of my movements ! I've just opened my flat door to discover what's next. I've even doubted a moment if this was reality or not but as soon as I noticed the building design was quite different I felt confident that I was safely in my mind. I kept walking, and found a lot more people on my way that there usually is in real life. They seemed to ignore me, but I didn't try to talk to them directly. I took the stairs down to the ground floor and arrived in a large room also filled with quite many people. I eventually woke up shortly after, I don't know for what reason.

So I don't understand, why do people think it could be a real experience (astral plane and stuff). For me it seemed pretty clear that all the environment was created by my brain when walking through my building as it was totally not identical to reality.

I'm on the same opinion as you :)

You can seamlessly transfer from SP to a dream, so you wouldn't even notice it most of the time. It happens even more easily when you close your eyes, which you did as well...
I also had an experience like this, when a second hand raised from my original one while i was in SP, but that was just a hallucination... simply reasoned.
All the floating above your body and other experiences people say about OBE/APs can be experienced in lucid dreams...

Yet some people still like to believe that OBE/APs are something special...

I'm sure people who believe that, ask why you believe the opposite?

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Originally Posted by Fool1sh

For me it seemed pretty clear that all the environment was created by my brain when walking through my building as it was totally not identical to reality.

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This is what I gathered from articles I have read about this subject, and it is also a reason, why proving that AP/OBE exists is so tough if not impossible.

When you OOB, you don't project to the waking life world. You project into one of 7 astral planes. The one closest to the WL looks very much like our waking worlds, but it's not identical. There are always some differences. That's because that plane is only astral copy of the waking world. Since the environment of astral planes is created by thoughts of people living in WL (thoughtform), it's influenced by how many people for how long time thought about something.

Now, I'm not trying to convince anybody. I'll be happy to PM you some links to sites where you can read more about this and decide on your own, unless you already made up your mind. Happy dreams:)

This has been a debate that has been around since the 1800s. When you deal with the occult, metaphysics, and parapsychology there will always be a debate as to whether it is real or in our minds. There has been test studies done that shown AP to be authentic and there have been some to show it being off base (Ref Celia Green as one investigator)

Are OBE and AP the same? AP is a type of OBE, but not all OBE are AP.
It is like Cheerios are cerial, but cerial is not always Cheerios.

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Originally Posted by Fool1sh

For me it seemed pretty clear that all the environment was created by my brain when walking through my building as it was totally not identical to reality.

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That's what I concluded too, for years. Since then I learned that this isn't the whole story.

When you're awake, the 'environment' you seem to experience is also created by your brain, but it incorporates information from your eyes and ears in a familiar way. In the astral projection experience, it may be clear that you're not incorporating information from your eyes. However, the experience can incorporate other objectively real visual information obtained through some other mysterious means. My astral projection experiences have not been conclusive in that regard. However, other trans-sensory information is now regularly incorporated into my dreams in an equally impossible way, and I understand this to be essentially the same as what people do during astral projection.

I'm fairly sure the 7 planes stuff was made up by Theosophists. Or more precisely, similar ideas were invented by Vedic and Greek mystics, and Theosophists adapted those into their present form. Now other people repeat it because they want to believe that somebody understands what's going on.

I've never encountered or read of anyone who experiences 7 planes who also shows a willingess to examine how their beliefs shape their experiences. If someone out there does in some objective sense experience 7 planes, and not 6 or 8 or some other arrangement, I'd love to hear from you, because I have a lot of questions.

I think the failure of anybody to come up with a real explanation of what's going on during astral projection accounts for a lot of the confusion and disbelief in relation to it. But its wrong to conclude that its unreal just because the imagination is involved and we can't explain it adequately.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I'm fairly sure the 7 planes stuff was made up by Theosophists. Or more precisely, similar ideas were invented by Vedic and Greek mystics, and Theosophists adapted those into their present form. Now other people repeat it because they want to believe that somebody understands what's going on.

I've never encountered or read of anyone who experiences 7 planes who also shows a willingess to examine how their beliefs shape their experiences. If someone out there does in some objective sense experience 7 planes, and not 6 or 8 or some other arrangement, I'd love to hear from you, because I have a lot of questions.

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So true. People want to believe that everything can be written down in a nice orderly way. They are reassured by a structure in their universe. The nature of what is going on could be very flexable, and the very nature of existance may actually change based on who is experiencing it. I listen to claims made in books that list everything neatly and keep it in my mind as some one's experience, but not the only way it may be. I will go as far as to say Heaven may actually exist for some people and for others a different after life may await, based on their own expectations and beliefs.

Thank you for the analogy Sivason, it helps to clarify the subtle differences between OBEs and APs :).

Some of us believe that OBEs and APs are merely forms of Lucid Dreaming, and a production of the sleepers own mind.
While others believe that they involve something outside of our minds - like a spiritual power or god, for instance.

Ultimately, the "How and Why" is irrelevant - what matters is that it IS possible to experience OBE's and AP. If that is what you wish to pursue, then dreamviews has the tools to help you achieve it. OBEs and APs can be experienced using WILD techniques with focus on having an OBE/AP.

No matter what you believe about them, Dreamviews is still the place to be. There may be debate over the basics of the concept, but we're all on the same side in terms of applying them

Gab, could you please send me those links? Thanks! :)



Neither the physical dimension, nor the astral one is real; but the EXPERIENCE of them is. Experience is what is real. The very act of perceiving creates an illusion which we call "reality". The physical "reality" seems objective, but it's not and is greatly influenced by the modulators (like filters) we use to perceive it. The most important modulator is our belief system. Having a different modulator for perceiving (having different beliefs) leads to different experiences in life. Beliefs act like a filter and makes you think that what you are experiencing is "what is" and "that's the way it is in the world for everyone", but it's just YOUR world. It's completely subjective. What you don't believe, won't happen to you, either in the physical world or the astral one.

I want to know how much the information one obtains while having an OBE can be relevant to and useful in our everyday lives. Can we obtain any useful information that we didn't have a way of knowing in the physical plane? Maybe we need to change our beliefs that we can obtain such information first and then we will be able to access it. Any thoughts or experiences?

There is absolutely no controversy that OBEs are real. People who claim they aren't real don't have any fucking clue what an OBE is. It has been well documented that people can feel the sensation as though they've left their bodies. OBE doesn't claim one has actually left their body, it only claims that they felt the sensation as if they had. AP, however, posits that there is something like an Astral Body which can leave your physical body, and this is where all the controversy is.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

There is absolutely no controversy that OBEs are real. People who claim they aren't real don't have any fucking clue what an OBE is. It has been well documented that people can feel the sensation as though they've left their bodies. OBE doesn't claim one has actually left their body, it only claims that they felt the sensation as if they had. AP, however, posits that there is something like an Astral Body which can leave your physical body, and this is where all the controversy is.

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Great point. It is an Experience. It is like UFO not meaning the same thing as Space Ship.

Oh dude, you're on fire!
I'm diggin' these analogies :D

"Brave men tell the truth,
A wise man's tools are analogies and puzzles,
A woman holds her tongue,
Knowing silence will speak for her."
-Royksopp

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Originally Posted by MATRIXhacker

What you don't believe, won't happen to you, either in the physical world or the astral one.

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Nobody was ever left by a lover or sickened by poisoned food except that they believed those things would happen? If you believe your physical body is immortal it won't die? If you believe you can hate without ever experiencing adverse consequences, then you can?

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Originally Posted by DreiHundert

Ultimately, the "How and Why" is irrelevant - what matters is that it IS possible to experience OBE's and AP.

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If you cultivate an experience without understanding anything about how and why it is happening, you can't know if the process is harming you or other people. If you don't care, then you are like the gangster wives who don't ask what their husbands do for a living, because what matters is that the money keeps coming in.

The how and why of astral projection matters very much to me. Not only is it relevant, it's ultimately far more relevant than the experience itself, because of what it implies for so many other aspects of life.

Some of you don't like conflict because it's unpleasant, and can be hurtful. I should have been kinder about the 7 planes. But sometimes conflict is necessary. I apologize to the extent my way of going about it has been unhelpful.

I think that the distinction between alien spaceship and the original meaning of the UFO acronym is important when two people are confusing each other in conversation by using the words in a different way without realizing it. And it can be important if someone is confusing themselves by blurring two different definitions in their own mind in an inconsistent way. But once we understand each other, beyond that it's just pedantism.

At least half if my 'astral projection' experiences have not been OBE's. I kept my standpoint of awareness in my physical body while projecting a significant portion of my astral body, so to speak. And I've had OBE's that weren't astral projection - my visual standpoint and sense of identity went out of body, but my tactile sense and what seems like 'astral' form stayed in body. So the definitions break down no matter which standard you choose.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I think that the distinction between alien spaceship and the original meaning of the UFO acronym is important when two people are confusing each other in conversation by using the words in a different way without realizing it. And it can be important if someone is confusing themselves by blurring two different definitions in their own mind in an inconsistent way. But once we understand each other, beyond that it's just pedantism.

At least half if my 'astral projection' experiences have not been OBE's. I kept my standpoint of awareness in my physical body while projecting a significant portion of my astral body, so to speak. And I've had OBE's that weren't astral projection - my visual standpoint and sense of identity went out of body, but my tactile sense and what seems like 'astral' form stayed in body. So the definitions break down no matter which standard you choose.

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LOL. Ok, in general AP is OBE, but you seem to have found a possable exception. I told you one time about getting most of my tactile awareness outside my body but was pinned in my body at the head. I was definately moving my astral form around, but was still in my body partially. Sounds some whatish like what you said. So, there you go. Let's see. Cheerios are cerial, but cerial is not always cheerios,,, that is unless the Cheerios are ground up, then they are oat flour. :)

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

If you cultivate an experience without understanding anything about how and why it is happening, you can't know if the process is harming you or other people. If you don't care, then you are like the gangster wives who don't ask what their husbands do for a living, because what matters is that the money keeps coming in.

The how and why of astral projection matters very much to me. Not only is it relevant, it's ultimately far more relevant than the experience itself, because of what it implies for so many other aspects of life.

Some of you don't like conflict because it's unpleasant, and can be hurtful. I should have been kinder about the 7 planes. But sometimes conflict is necessary. I apologize to the extent my way of going about it has been unhelpful.

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I assure you that your posts were not the reason that I created mine, and I don't think you have any reason to apologize for them. In fact, if you believe that I meant to attack you in my post, I would like to personally apologize - as that was not my intentions at all.

I don't think that OBEs and APs are on the same level as a gangster wife, but the concept is similar. The origins of OBEs and APs are entirely relevant to those who practice them - don't get me wrong.
What I meant was that the debate over their origins is irrelevant to the actual practice. Healthy debate over the origins is not irrelevant to the sake of debating and trying to combine opinions to seek the truth of course.... But those who believe that OBEs are Lucid Dreams can pursue an OBE successfully, and those who believe that OBEs are a spiritual thing can pursue an OBE successfully. Even someone who believes that APs are because of Dreams can still pursue astral planing, but their opinion about the meaning of the experience is likely to be different than that of someone who believes APs are due to a phenomenon unrelated to dreams.

It's entirely healthy to pursue OBE and AP with any understanding of the origins, and the experience is going to hold a different meaning for everyone, but I think that there really is no "Controversy" about it, because the end result is good for everyone. We're all on the same side, in that we're all trying to deepen our understanding of our subconscious. It's to be expected that we have formed different opinions about it.

Because the actuality of what's happening has little effect on the technique necessary to achieve it, it matter little to the practitioner whether you leave your body or not, is that right?

Of course I believe it does matter if you have to goal of obtaining real information. But one can always do verification tests after the fact.

Obe occurs to the same plane that we live.it is simple projection of the etheric to the enviroment around you not an astral plane.People who think they experience something like an astral plane are just
confused.
Now what really makes you think that all of these people that claim an obe are not just trapped into the labyrinth of themselves?
And what makes you think that the mind doesen't have a safety which just turns you back
since most of the people who try an obe technique are in danger of "slice" their etheric body?
And what makes you think that an obe just simply occurs when you're standing in a chair as the etheric just extends from the mind?
And what makes you think that an obe has anything to do with an astral projection?

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Originally Posted by tsiouz

And what makes you think that an obe has anything to do with an astral projection?

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Symantics I suppose. OBE is the experience of being out of the body. There fore any experience that creates the feeling that you are no longer in your body could be called OBE. It does not matter what AP really is. I consider etheric to be still on this plane but shifted a bit. Astral as far as my thinking has nothing to do with Earth or a room or floating above your bed. In my mind, AP involves leaving this realm all together, thus you are out of your body, so it counnts as OBE just like etherial experiences are OBE, yet the two are nothing a like. The post above where I made the crack about ground Cheerios would actually be etherial not AP in my book, but it hardly matters for the point Shadowofwind was making.

This goes to the starter of the thread only.

Astral projection is transfer of the person completely into another realm.
The reason no information is accurate is because it always starts passive as the body stays dead without breathing.
What you've maybe heard about in ancient egypt of people priests coming back from the dead is that process.
Any attempt to try it yourself is gonna leave the body splitted from the soul with a thin veil holding it so any person that succeded doing this stayed a vegetable for the rest of his life.
People which that happen passively (and only) in their lives learned to keep their mouth shut about it so any testament of a person entering another realm is just rubbish.
So every time you reading something about astral projection just ignore it.

Obe is the projection of the yourself through the etheric into the enviroment.
things that can happen:
Is more likely to happen when a person is near to death as the etheric is ready to abandon the body.If the person will use this technique after that incident is more likely to create a hole
in to the area below the chest as this is the place in the death which the etheric deattach violently.

Now most of the people who try an obe have a feel they get sinked from the chest (as it controls the etheric body)
and their mind shut's down for a second.These people didn't achieved any obe rather then transfer of the mind to it's own labyrinth.
The only projection that happens is from the mind and you don't need an exercise for it.
When the mind is ready the etheric becomes more elastic and able to deattach from the body(keeping always a connection through the mind) so you're just sliding from yourself.
You don't wake up when finish from it you just return to yourself.

What happened to you is not the case.
This is coming from an area which i like to call the "vortex" of the neck.
This is a plane inside your mind.
This is a message from yourself and a very importand one.
It happens rarelly to people as their desire is strong and they don't see a result with any technique themselves,so it is giving an answer like the one jou've experienced and it is rare because most of people around you never gonna experience personal moments.
It might not look like a message but trust me it is one.
So instead of trying to find what this is,just ask yourself (if you're remember enough details) what kind of an answer you can get from this.

Out-of-body experience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OBE was introduced specifically as a bias-free term to describe the experience one feels as if they left the body, whether or not they actually did.

even if OBEs and APs are just WILDs they still could be OBEs or APs because what is to say that dreams arent OBEs or APs???

well the only difference i can share with the OBE/AP and LD's is that the AP's have been extreamly Spiritual and Beautiful while Lucid Dreaming was more Conjested crap random and spontaneus Adrenaline fueled :)

I can tell the Difference between them from my experiences but everyones experience will never be the same as eachothers i guess thats what makes it unique :)

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Originally Posted by tsiouz

This goes to the starter of the thread only.

Astral projection is transfer of the person completely into another realm.
The reason no information is accurate is because it always starts passive as the body stays dead without breathing.
What you've maybe heard about in ancient egypt of people priests coming back from the dead is that process.
Any attempt to try it yourself is gonna leave the body splitted from the soul with a thin veil holding it so any person that succeded doing this stayed a vegetable for the rest of his life.
People which that happen passively (and only) in their lives learned to keep their mouth shut about it so any testament of a person entering another realm is just rubbish.
So every time you reading something about astral projection just ignore it.

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WOW. Funny stuff here at the comedy club. Really.

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Originally Posted by sivason

WOW. Funny stuff here at the comedy club. Really.

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You should go perform then.

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Originally Posted by gab

I'll be happy to PM you some links to sites where you can read more about this and decide on your own

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Me please?

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pu...82720_4794.jpg

As far as Im concerned there is no controversy.

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Originally Posted by mcwillis

As far as Im concerned there is no controversy.

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http://jpgmag.com/dev/o_rly.jpg

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I've never encountered or read of anyone who experiences 7 planes who also shows a willingess to examine how their beliefs shape their experiences.

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This is a good point. Beliefs shape experiences, and experiences shape beliefs. A good example would be the Hindu Elephant god Ganesh.

Why do the Indians have an elephant god, but the South Americans don't? Not surprisingly, because there are elephants in India, but not in South America.

This is a good example of how experiences shape beliefs.

An example of how beliefs shape experiences... I was on a plane wearing a keffiyeh going to Brussels from New York. New York has lots of Jews. Brussels has lots of Muslims. I was going to stay in a poor section of Brussels with migrant Muslim workers all around. So I wore a Keffiyeh. But on the plane from New York, people thought I was Jewish. Some Rabbi even told me to put my Ipod away. I told him to take a hike.