Thread: I see a bunch of BS

Well that's just how some people are im afraid, i think the best thing is to be open minded but also being skeptical. It's also important to have a constructive discussion, but this has to come from both sides. It's not just this forum the world is full of it, it's how humans are. It's how it always will be sadly.. If they don't wanna see it from ur point of view, then don't even bother to reply cause you will get nowhere.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I see a bunch of long rehashed tl;dr arguments of people who like to hear themselves talk.

skeptics on this forum are as ridiculous as atheists. you cannot prove God exists. you cannot prove god does not exist.

you state opinions as fact, and reject the fact that you are using fallacious arguments.

you base your premises on bullshit.

instead, base your premises on what grows on the bullshit.

check your premise, wise guy.

*If* you post on this section of the forum, then you have to be prepared for the fact that there are skeptics and believers. That's fine; welcome to the harsh world.

If you are looking for a world where there are only believers, then I might recommend the "Deep Dreaming Team", which may be more geared to your liking.

I can't see the purpose of this thread, seeing as you're not referring to anything specific. It reminds me of those cryptic and indirect posts on facebook people make to vent about being dumped by their partners.

Anyway, you say people are using fallacious arguments and then use the "you can't prove god doesn't exist" argument which is pretty much the classic fallacy (the burden of proof lies on those that make the claim), instantly devaluing your own opinion. I don't wish to argue about religion; I'm just pointing out an issue with your post.

If you have a problem with the arguments skeptics are making, why don't you go ahead and point out the flaws in the threads themselves?

A thread complaining about BS by WakingNomad. Classic.

people are going to believe whatever they want. it's a free country and open forum. the rules are very clear. It is a waste of energy to whine and complain. just do your thing. you have your friends and like minded people so just hang with them and leave the others alone.

Four likes on the opening post so far. I am missing something as I haven't got the tinniest clue what the theme of this thread is all about.

WakingNomad:

I think you make a good point, at least in large part, and I understand why you would be bored with arguing with skeptics. I also think its reasonable for people to want to have 'skeptic free' threads, to avoid getting bogged down in the debate at every turn.

That said, not everybody has been over that ground before. And some skeptics are honest and intelligent, and do learn something from these discussions. Non-skeptics likewise.

Its stupid when 'intellectuals' dismiss the thoughts and experiences of 'non-intellectuals' as insufficiently sophisticated to be of value. Its at least as stupid when 'non-intellectuals' dismiss rigorous argument as worthless just because they don't do it themselves.

Many people here, myself included, value your experience and perspective. But if you just drop in once in a while to piss on other people for a few seconds, while rarely if ever engaging with them on the points you disagree with, that seems to me to have a lot in common with the other forms of posturing that you are criticizing. Respect is a two-way kind of thing.

I'll quote DreiHundert because I think he made a good point in the other thread.

Originally Posted by DreiHundert

As soon as I read this, I knew that you have absolutely no idea what a debate actually is. It is not a futile argument with big words like you think it is. It's about furthering our collective understanding of something. Whenever we have intellectual debates, people on both sides LEARN more. Without having debates, we only know what we want to know, and we believe anything that supports our opinions. Those "Big Words" make it easier for us to learn more from eachother in less time. We can say more, while saying less. We can explain in a sentence what would take a paragraph with a limited vocabulary. Those big words are not our POINTS... Grab a dictionary, understand the sentence, and you will understand our POINTS... You will understand that a debate goes beyond seeing who can sound the smartest.

WakingNomad:

I've only been here for a year, but I've witnessed a very odd progression on your part from a long-winded idea machine to a sporadic one-line narrow opinion processor. I have no idea what happened to you (I'm guessing it mattered a lot, though), but to see you get annoyed at open, wordy, debate is disconcerting at best.

I am by no means a skeptic, though I take the skeptic's position often, just in an attempt to draw the "why" of things from people who actually might know. But I do relish thoughtful conversation, as you once did. It is deeply confusing that you, one of the lights of advanced dreaming here, have taken umbrage with people who want to know more at all cost -- even if that cost is reading tl;dr's and perhaps accepting someone else's point of view. That you think conversations are complete by saying "This is true because I said so," or "This thing happened to me, so it must mean that shared dreaming is real," is troubling.

Aside from the shameful fact that you call posts you clearly did not read BS, I have to question your motives in actually starting a thread meant to do nothing more than whine about people saying things you don't want to hear about your favorite subject. That is just wrong, and from what little I know of you, WakingNomad, that is not how you once were.

So don't bitch: Contribute, pay attention, push your agenda, whatever -- just work to grow this thing that is lucid dreaming (and dream-sharing). Don't get angry because we're not all blindly parroting your "established" tenets.

And yes, Nomad, sometimes the truth requires "tl;dr" posts, because it simply covers that much ground. If you can't handle that, then just leave us be, and feel comforted by your own superiority.

Full disclosure: I wasn't going to post here at all, but, after reading several posts from very clever people, I realized that the thing being discussed wasn't your annoyance, Nomad, but discussion itself. This forum was not invented, I think, to provide unchallengeable "billboards" for self-proclaimed experts; it was invented to allow those experts to mix it up with other experts, until the truth comes out. Please don't try to screw with that, and, more important, don't walk away from discourse.

I got in a car accident.

My disk is pinching my spinal cord.

It hurts to type.

This is why I barely post.

***

I am a bigger skeptic than all of you. I doubt all but my personal experience.

I see a bunch of people stating their opinions as fact. This is not being skeptical. This is not being experienced. Stating opinions as fact is called a fallacious argument.

***

I see your obnoxious thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, and raise you some fucking intelligence. (Ad hominem attacks are also fallacious arguments.)

You're running around in circles doing mental gymnastics wasting time on worthless semantics meanwhile you could be actually practicing inducing altered brainwave states.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I see your obnoxious thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, and raise you some fucking intelligence.

As if some non-specific bitching thread qualifies as intelligence. If you've got a problem with someone's argument, post a response in the relevant thread. If it's a personal problem, take it up with the person in question. This is just juvenile.

Post 11

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I got in a car accident.

My disk is pinching my spinal cord.

It hurts to type.

This is why I barely post.

***

I am a bigger skeptic than all of you. I doubt all but my personal experience.

I see a bunch of people stating their opinions as fact. This is not being skeptical. This is not being experienced. Stating opinions as fact is called a fallacious argument.

***

I see your obnoxious thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, and raise you some fucking intelligence. (Ad hominem attacks are also fallacious arguments.)

You're running around in circles doing mental gymnastics wasting time on worthless semantics meanwhile you could be actually practicing inducing altered brainwave states.

WakingNomad has WORKED very hard since the 24th of August 2009 to introduce practical experiments. A recent one is this:

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/hackin...g-life-125224/

Things like "Does God Exist" and so on and so forth might not be confirmed by endless talk, talk,talk but it will be confirmed by practical participation in WakingNomad type experiments.

Scientific proof (evidence for a hypothesis) is peer reviewed so that your fellows can point out errors in your method/conclusions etc.

It also needs to be repeatable by equally reputable scientific labs/institutions.

The above statements form vicious circle that put any real research into fringe phenomenon far beyond reach. No scientist is going to risk reputation and lively hood by revisiting flawed research mainly carried out in the paranoia of the cold war. Non repeatability seems also to be a hallmark of these fringe phenomenon.

So believers can relax. Investigate and test yourself. You can choose how to interpret your own experience but I wouldn't expect to run around with a banner and expect others to blindly believe you.

And skeptics should remember that it wasn't very long ago that lucid dreaming was also denounced as the product over active imaginations...

I would only add that the only break I can see might come in the next 20 years is the revolution in scanning and computer technologies combined with growing citizen scientist online movements. Imagine powerful 2025 nextgen phones with the ability to monitor brain activity, giant cloud storage and online collation you get to a point where enough people would be willing to settle these debates once and for all!

From this thread:

Originally Posted by Crossroadsguide

Scientific proof (evidence for a hypothesis) is peer reviewed so that your fellows can point out errors in your method/conclusions etc.

It also needs to be repeatable by equally reputable scientific labs/institutions.

The above statements form vicious circle that put any real research into fringe phenomenon far beyond reach. No scientist is going to risk reputation and lively hood by revisiting flawed research mainly carried out in the paranoia of the cold war. Non repeatability seems also to be a hallmark of these fringe phenomenon.

So believers can relax. Investigate and test yourself. You can choose how to interpret your own experience but I wouldn't expect to run around with a banner and expect others to blindly believe you.

And skeptics should remember that it wasn't very long ago that lucid dreaming was also denounced as the product over active imaginations...

I would only add that the only break I can see might come in the next 20 years is the revolution in scanning and computer technologies combined with growing citizen scientist online movements. Imagine powerful 2025 nextgen phones with the ability to monitor brain activity, giant cloud storage and online collation you get to a point where enough people would be willing to settle these debates once and for all!

From zilvis89's thread called "Seeing images with eyes closed"

Originally Posted by Crossroadsguide

Experiencing hypnogogic imagery around sleep is normal. The key skill is to lock into those images and use them to tease out a WILD or lucid when you enter REM.

I've had some very odd experiences where I will be in a day dreamy head space. Not realise I've closed my eyes for a second and still see my room. I'll look around for a while before coming to my senses and feeling my eye lids are closed. The interesting part is when my eyes flick open I'm blind for a few seconds, my sight returning like tunnel vision from the centre.

Obviously the brain has switched to the created inner mind generated view and shut off/suppressed the information from the optic nerve. Its always intrigued me as oracles and other seers are often depicted as blind. Also have a look at articles on Kudda Bux who could read newspapers with closed eyes.

This is great stuff CrossroadsGuide.

Originally Posted by Crossroadsguide

The Lucid Crossroads project is waking from its own slumber. Within 3 months the site will under go a complete transformation, art, articles and new media.

For those that don't know the Crossroads was set-up as a meeting point for all lucid dreamers. A hub of the dreamscape to deepen lucidity, steady yourself and with the help of the dream receptionists plan your forward journey.

I've placed this thread in Beyond Dreaming as the Crossroads is usually associated with shared dreaming. That being a part of why it was set up in the first place and I notice it is mostly mentioned in this forum. That said I would encourage all lucid dreamers to drop by dreamside its a real trip to visit and hang out there! Personally I'm a scientifically skeptical person I just happen to enjoy the exploration of the fringe.

As for the changes one of the most important changes is that the 3D model of the Lucid Crossroads will be made copy-left (this has been asked for many times in the past). This will mean that if you want your own versions of the dreamspace you can tweak it to your hearts content. You might want to use the free Blender software to render up some views with a fancy new supercar you've been wanting to take for a spin?

The website will be most condensed and media rich. There will be a Lucid Crossroads book and this will go into more expansive detail. All will be produced to the highest level I can reach (I'm an illustrator/artist). Support us at the Crossroads site or our Indiegogo page.

I will also update this thread with progress over the next few months!

The above is from your thread :

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/lucid-...7/#post1912799

I am not a lucid dreamer. I am a "Hipnagoger". I think there many spiecies of dreamer and many will never be frequent lucid dreamers.

Here is my thread:

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/dream-...loaded-123389/

I have no participants but when it wakes-up (by participation) it will blow folks socks off. The sharks were not controlled by any human. The Rip It Up magazine cover and earth quake also was not caused by me or any one. I can understand folks being too "scardy-cat" to play but some day they will lose thier fear and give it a go.

Til then I will join in any dream-game on offer. But I have to use hipnagogs and hipnapops and common dreams and songs that I wake to because I am not a Lucid Dreamer.

In this thread: WakingNomad complains about people, people complain about WakingNomad. Those of us in the middle are terribly confused.

The only thing I can pull from this is that you want people to not just discuss things, but try them? That's not a bad viewpoint per se, although there are certainly less abrasive ways of putting it. But this is a forum, in the end. Forums are great for discussion, and will always be primarily used for discussion. Experiments are hard to set up on here, and nearly impossible to verify -- you have to take people at their word. In the end, large-scale experiments just don't happen: volunteers are rare, or the program just loses its momentum when real life intrudes. It even happened to the DVASA group, and being part of that, I guess you can say I'm part of the problem.

So you have to treat this on an individual basis. Some will try, some will just discuss, and there's nothing you can do about it. Frustration is one thing, but let's try to be civil here. I've noticed an alarming trend in Beyond Dreaming lately... It's never been the most peaceful part of the forums, and there have always been small disagreements, but emotional reactions seem to be much higher lately. Not sure why... but we're all people here, and I think we're mature enough to pull ourselves together and remain civil. *shrugs* That's my two cents.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I got in a car accident. My disk is pinching my spinal cord. It hurts to type. This is why I barely post.

I'm truly sorry to hear that, Nomad -- I am very familiar with that kind of injury, and its accompanying pain. I truly wish you the best in dealing with it.

***

I am a bigger skeptic than all of you. I doubt all but my personal experience.

I see a bunch of people stating their opinions as fact. This is not being skeptical. This is not being experienced. Stating opinions as fact is called a fallacious argument.

I see your obnoxious thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, and raise you some fucking intelligence. (Ad hominem attacks are also fallacious arguments.) You're running around in circles doing mental gymnastics wasting time on worthless semantics meanwhile you could be actually practicing inducing altered brainwave states.

You know what Nomad? I had a long post responding to those pronouncements, but I deleted it. Why? Because it wasn't worth the time or energy to continue this nonsense. If you want to rail about people who choose to discuss things, have at it (doing so in the relevant threads you take issue with would be much more effective, I think). Just be aware that each post you make like this damages your credibility ever further. You may not care about that, but I personally am saddened to see you doing this to yourself.

Just two quick BTW's, and I'm done (I promise):

If I ever launch an ad hominem attack at you, trust me, it will not be veiled. I don't know if you were accusing me of that, but if you were, you were wrong.

For what it's worth, I do far more doing than talking, as I am sure many other long-winded posters here do...please don't make assumptions that are both not true and you cannot possibly know; that only lowers yourself to the level of BS'er you're complaining about.

That's it for me. Good luck, Nomad

If folks like the mighty Dream Warrior, Waking Nomad, get ignored much longer they might get poached by a site filled with participants.

Then Dreamviews will just go on talking about dreaming.

I am skeptical about the usefulness of this thread.

Originally Posted by mcwillis

Four likes on the opening post so far. I am missing something as I haven't got the tinniest clue what the theme of this thread is all about.

A few more posts and I still haven't got a clue as to what the purpose of this thread is.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

My disk is pinching my spinal cord. It hurts to type. This is why I barely post.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/how-he...-dream-127501/

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

you cannot prove God exists.

I'm still working on the electronic schematics for my Godometer.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

I am skeptical about the usefulness of this thread.

Every thread has a use.

every bridge needs a troll...and I am that rainbow bridge to the future where two pages meet. I am the sun which shines upon the divergent paths of youth and wisdom. They are the sifting wheat and billows of trolling wonder-kins.

I like to say you are wrong so I can be right....

Your proof sucks because mine is better...

cock fights are illegal in most states...

In other news, corporations are taking over the world and Anderson Cooper is gay...Heres tom with the weather!!

Like your gif lol ...but this isn't a joke. It's usually about people attacking someones beliefs> uses your gif back at you

Originally Posted by ♥Mark

A thread complaining about BS by WakingNomad. Classic.

Woman gets attacked by bear on TV | Best Funny Gifs and Animated Gifs Updated Daily - Gif Bin
Skeptics attacking! ^

I can't help but feel as though OP's post is directed specifically at me, even though it is probably not.

You're basically stating that ALL atheists/skeptics on this forum use fallacious arguments, based on your experience with a few of them.
Well, if you're so into fallacious arguments, let me point one out for you.

The Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is not large enough. It has the following form:

Sample S, which is too small, is taken from population P.
Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.

Maybe you're talking about me, maybe you're not.
But when I see these crazy rehashed tl;dr arguments about skepticism vs faith, I see debates worth having.
When I read your argument about us needing to stop, I see half-witted insults and generalizations.

Allow me to quote myself.

I have VERY little patience for children who constantly talk and talk and talk, without SAYING anything. I think Louis C.K. once explained that nothing that a young child says is important at all - that they just spew shit out of their mouth and accomplish nothing. That is what I think of when I think of an internet forum that is afraid of getting involved in debates over controversial topics.

That's what OP looks like to me. A child spewing shit out of his mouth, accomplishing nothing for anyone. Effectively negating the progress that intelligent debates accomplish by whining and complaining about the nature of the arguments themselves.

If you took the time to read through some of the debates that I have participated on this forum, you would see that I am not closed-minded. You would see that my intention is not to negate the opinions of others, or to make anyone feel stupid for thinking differently than me.

My intention is to encourage people to discuss things more deeply than they previously might have. To get them to think about the ideas that I have presented, and in turn, give me the opportunity to read and think about the ideas that they have to offer. Hell, I've found myself participating in debates in which I have not even formed my own opinion on yet. It's not about pressing my views down people's throats.

Also, when you say that these are "Rehashed tl;dr" discussions... You're wrong. Sure, they pop up again and again, in several topics across several forums. But every time I participate in one, I always learn a little more. I've gained a ton of knowledge from forum debates - and every time I engage in one I get smarter, and I am able to perform better in the next one. And what if we did suddenly stop debating about faith vs science? Twenty years goes by and nobody has ever debated religion. Then we would have 20 year olds who don't know ANYTHING about the subject, because they've lived their entire life without seeing or hearing a single religion debate. These debates are NOT redundant and irrelevant. What about a 13 year old child living today, who has been taught about religion by his parents, but hasn't heard the other side of the story yet. You, as a forum veteran with over 5,000 posts on Dreamviews... Maybe you've heard it all. But this 13 year old can learn a lot from reading debates about the subject. He can hear both sides and form his own opinion, no matter what it may be. It will be all new to him. And it will give him WAY more information that he would ever get from Mom or his Pastor. It's the same as a 13 year old atheist boy would learn more from an online debate than he would from his father or his science teacher.

And these debates aren't always ABOUT faith vs science. Sometimes they are about morality, ethics, politics, technology... Hell, anything can be debated... If I had to choose between bettering the human race's understanding of things, and making WakingNomad happy... Well... Sorry WakingNomad, I've got more important things to worry about.

I agree with only one thing: That people shouldn't debate about it in every thread regarding shared dreaming. For instance, a thread titled "How do I share a dream with my friend" should be answered with "Talk to the OSDP" or "Here's how I do this and blablabla". Debating the existance of Shared Dreaming is not relevant and to be honest should be considered thread hijacking. However, in a thread where someone talks about proving the existance of shared dreaming - it's FAIR GAME.

EDIT:
I'm sorry for being so aggressive towards you in this post. But JESUS. You're attacking an entire group of people for voicing their opinions...