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      lucid dream or other world?

      Hello all Ive been lucid dreaming for over 30 years and Im almost convinced that our minds or souls are transported to another world when lucid dreaming. Based on the realism including sight, taste, touch, smell and real coversations with people Ive never met. Also based on questions I ask others in my lucid dreams. Your thoughts on the possibility that they are not dreams but real?
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      As cool as it is to imagine that you are being transported to another world, I think as with most things the simplest answer is the correct one.

      Considering your brain is what makes you experience your senses, I would assume your brain is simulating your senses while dreaming.
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      In my experience lucid dreaming has proven the exact opposite to me, the fact that once you get to know your dreams you can recognize patterns and see that everything is controllable and easy to change it really would make no sense to assume it is in a different world. The mind is well capable of creating a fully realistic world often surpassing the quality of waking life.
      Assuming that dreams take place in a different world is just adding a level of complication which is not needed. Could you maybe give some better examples as to how you came to this belief?

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      When I first started lucid dreaming I thought it was cool, all the sex you want and with who, flying, etc.
      Then after many years I asked myself is this just my imagination, dreams or other worlds.
      Yes I could manifest anything or person I wanted to and in any location and then I stopped thinking while lucid.
      I wanted to see what would happen if I did not think it true, just go with the flow however never forget Im lucid.
      I would meet people and have conversations with them. It got to the point where I turned my lucid dreams into tests and would ask the same questions everytime I met someone in a lucid dream.
      I would first clear my mind to not inject any answers then ask the following 3 questions:
      1. What is your name?
      2. Where are we?
      3. What year is it?
      Everytime no matter who I asked the answers were the same.
      Try this the next time you are lucid with a clear mind as not to speak your thoughts through whom ever is in your dream.
      I will tell you what the same answers were but first try it so I do not influence the outcome.

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      Okay I will definitely try it, but you do know it is almost impossible to stop your brain from thinking something, so hence even if all your dc's give you the same answer it could be because you subconsciously expected it, it's still not solid enough to base anything off unfortunately.

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      Quote Originally Posted by longtimelucid View Post
      When I first started lucid dreaming I thought it was cool, all the sex you want and with who, flying, etc.
      Then after many years I asked myself is this just my imagination, dreams or other worlds.
      Yes I could manifest anything or person I wanted to and in any location and then I stopped thinking while lucid.
      I wanted to see what would happen if I did not think it true, just go with the flow however never forget Im lucid.
      I would meet people and have conversations with them. It got to the point where I turned my lucid dreams into tests and would ask the same questions everytime I met someone in a lucid dream.
      I would first clear my mind to not inject any answers then ask the following 3 questions:
      1. What is your name?
      2. Where are we?
      3. What year is it?
      Everytime no matter who I asked the answers were the same.
      Try this the next time you are lucid with a clear mind as not to speak your thoughts through whom ever is in your dream.
      I will tell you what the same answers were but first try it so I do not influence the outcome.
      Not sure if trolling..
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      Possibly
      I do not have the answers and if just another dream state or another world I can not prove it is or is not...nobody can.
      What I can do is share my experiences similar to most others here.
      I have yet to read about someone who can take it to a level I have however I have yet to reach the end of the internet
      Once you have confirmed you are lucid after performing all the lucid dream tests now test where you are.
      Why just have fun with it and why not try to question it? What it really is? Where you are? What you are?
      Some have walked through walls. I've put my head in walls and look at their construct, whether stone or wood or drywall with insulation and electrical wires.
      I have layed on the bottom of the ocean, swam with the sharks, glided through whales and looked at their insides.
      I have let others guide me through my journeys as I just float and watch and feel my amazing surroundings.
      I've melded with a tree and felt the ruffness of my bark, my leaves each and everyone of them blowing in the wind and my roots spread throughout underground gripping mother earth and her holding me.
      If it sounds like an acid trip it's because it is similar however I'm fully conscious, aware and awake and one with my spiritual self and everything else.
      You see it is not just a dream.
      It can be a gateway to other worlds and/or a level of spirituality.

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      So because you have answers to those answers you think it is a real place? That is strange. If I think back in a lucid dream I can create tons of "fake memories" with a fake life and all, without interjecting anything. The past is different each time as well as who I meet and who I am.

      Also:
      I have yet to read about someone who can take it to a level I have however I have yet to reach the end of the internet
      What level are you talking about? Control? Lucidity? Spirituality? Please explain.

      If it sounds like an acid trip it's because it is similar however I'm fully conscious, aware and awake and one with my spiritual self and everything else.
      You see it is not just a dream.
      It can be a gateway to other worlds and/or a level of spirituality.
      It sounds like a lucid dream. I really don't know what you are getting at with the things you have done. They seem like things most people do in LDs. It is an amazing feeling and is different with each venture. To a non LDer it sounds like you are tripping. But Lucid Dreamers know the emotions that can be activated that you didn't even know existed in your dreams.

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      Yes every level you mentioned and more.
      Understand that I did not just recently start these tests I've been doing.
      I probably started the tests and questions roughly 20 years ago.
      When I first started the answers varied but I realized it was because I was thinking prior to or during the questions.
      Once I blanked my mind prior to and during the questions the answers were always the same:
      1. Everyone always knew their name (the names were always different and some names I've never heard of)
      2. Nobody ever knew where they were (a common answer was "here" however nobody ever knew city, country, planet, etc)
      3. Nobody ever knew the date (nobody ever had an answer for date, just blank stares or shrugs)
      I've asked other questions throughout my experience however these are the 3 I've asked since the start.

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      You sound very prideful about this. It sounds to me like you have limited yourself, not reached another level. I am not trying to be rude.

      I am afraid I agree with DutchRaptor on expectation playing a part. Even if it is a dream, it is quite hard to flush all expectation away.

      It is not that I am completely against the idea... I just don't know how these things come up with your answer to "it must be another world" I would love to hear the whole reasoning behind it. It is very very interesting.

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      This is fascinating - I have a few questions:

      1) So, have you determined that every lucid dream takes you to the same world, or each one to a different world? What does it mean that these worlds are populated by your family and friends and celebrities?

      2) What are DILDs, which start as normal dreams and suddenly you become lucid? This must mean that every non-lucid dream also takes place in these other worlds, right?

      3) What happens when you begin a dream there - do you suddenly appear out of nowhere? And disappear when you wake up or the dream ends? Do the other people notice you appearing and disappearing, and what do they think of that - have you ever asked them?

      4) Does it seem normal to you for people not to know where they live or what the date is?

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      I dont think I can convince you they are other worlds or dimensions or whatever the other place is called. Nor can you convince me they are not. I am a very spiritual person and maybe that is why I believe and feel differently than you. If I enter my lucid dream with no thought or expectations then the people and places are always different as if Ive fell into their lives or experiencing their world via someone else.

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      Ive always been intrigued by the spirit world and a couple years back I spoke with a friend of a friend who is a medium. We spoke mostly about her experiences but 2 things stuck out. Those she communicates with never no where they are or what time/date it is. So am I speaking with the dead, the unborn or the living from different worlds? No idea but I will continue with an open mind.

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      Ok now you're starting to make some sense. I wasn't trying to convince you of anything by the way, simply asking questions. I'm not just a diehard materialist trying to debunk everything, I'm open minded about certain things like the possibility of shared dreaming/telepathy (basically the same thing) and have had a couple of experiences that might have been shared dreams. In my case though I thought the environment was completely created by my dreaming mind, even if another person was somehow communicating with me through it. I also think the characters that I 'see' in the dreams are created from my own thoughts and memories and expectations, but that possibly some things they say or do are controlled by another person. This is how it seems to work in the examples of possible shared dreams I've seen from members of the board too - there are overlapping factors in the two dreams but only a few, and they see each other as totally different characters. So it seems to me that each dreamer creates their own imagery and environment through which some level of communication or contact can occur. It seems to be only the gist of the message or action that's the same or very similar for both dreamers. This idea in fact correlates nicely with what science knows about dreaming and the mind.

      It's now clear that you aren't saying this other world or other worlds are physically real, that's what I was trying to understand. Also, it seemed you had taken at least a somewhat scientific approach, by asking the three questions to many of the DCs. I just went ahead and listed the next few questions that I would want to try to get the answers to if I were in your place. The next point that comes into focus for me is this - in what way or to what extent can a world be said to be 'real' if it isn't physical? Please don't get defensive and assume I'm saying "it can't" --- I'm not saying that - I honestly want to discuss this. To me, what's real about shared dreaming (assuming it happens the way I said above) would be the communication - the similarities in the 2 dreams (the part that is the same between them). The rest would be imaginary and totally different to each dreamer, just symbols dreamed up in their minds around that communication.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-26-2013 at 03:55 AM.

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      There is one problem I can't get my head around. If we travel to a different world every night, why is that we can exert full control over what happens, to the perfect detail. If we really are in a different world with sentient entities it must mean that we should not be able to exert full control over everything in that world, the only way that would be possible is if the dreamer himself was actually interpreting the stimuli received from this world and then changing them in his own mind to suit himself. But is the latter is true then the existence of another world is completely unprovable to both science and the person them self. Since you know that your brain could be making it all up you cannot say for sure that you are traveling to a different world because there are some processes in the brain which you just can't observe.
      Even if you do believe in spiritual things like talking to the dead it would still not require the dreams to be set in a different world.
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      This is a very interesting topic. It will be hard for you to convince some of these skeptics, longtimelucid, for many of them have beliefs that directly conflict with the idea of other worlds or dimensions besides what we know, such as some religions. It is harder for them to believe something like this exists because it goes against what they've been taught to believe. These lucid Dreamers see how crazy real these Dreams can be and how similar to waking life they are, yet many of them think that its the Dream that is fake. Why can't both be fake? Or both be real? What is real? Bottom line is nobody knows, so your theory of Dreams being part of another place is conceivable. It sounds no crazier than many of the things ive heard in my life, things people shape their lives and thoughts around, ideologies that have no more "proof" than what you speak of currently. If you've been actively lucid Dreaming for 30 years then it sounds like you have ample experience to produce this theory, a theory by the way that you are not alone in.

      Humanities perceptions of its own existence are constantly evolving, people cannot say for a fact that Dreams reside wholly within the brain because we haven't proved it. We don't know everything about Dreams and we don't know everything about the human brain either, so it seems to me that lumping them together is a bit premature. But it happens, and will continue to happen.

      There are some good questions here in this thread, and I too would like to hear more about your experiences.

      @Darkmatters.
      I'm trying to get my head around your interpretation of shared Dreams. I've never had one, that I can recognize as such, so I'm very intrigued about your own experience with this occurrence. But if two Dreamers were merely in the same general area as one another, and experiencing separate imagery and so forth, then how are they to know they are truly sharing the Dream? I'm very interested in shared Dreaming, but I'm baffled as to how people can know they are in they same Dream if they don't experience the same thing? I would think that's how you would be able to verify that it was in fact a shared experience.

      Or are you saying that in a shared Dream there would be enough similarities to identify the Dream as Shared, but everything else would be unique to each respective Dreamer? But if that is indeed the case, hypothetically, then what does that imply? The act of sharing a Dream. Does it therefore imply that this takes place on an actual plane of existence? Can anyone do it? Or perhaps only the most advanced Lucid Dreamers? Does it happen by accident or do they agree on a meeting place before hand? If so, then how do they know they didn't just end up at two different but identical meeting spots, created within their own separate Dreams, and summoned a DC copy of their meeting buddy?

      @Dutch
      Good point Dutch. Many problems with us taking over someone else's world every night, especially when many of us are in standby mode when we do, unaware to a certain degree of what we are doing and oblivious to the possibility of other entities being there with us. Dangerous for them. The Dreamscape being another world doesn't necessarily have to mean there are entities that reside there, spirits, Oneiroi, etc. Try this one on... Imagine yourself as a being of unlimited potential. A being that will never cease to exist and has innate abilities it must learn to control. How then to calm your abilities until you are able to control them? We must learn to walk before we can run, right? Our bodies put a limit to the amount of power we can use, but if we were separated from our bodies, we could obviously do more. Enter the Dreamscape... Here we get an idea of what its like to create with only our thoughts. What other entity can you think of that is capable of doing the same thing? GOD perhaps? What does that make us then? After all, the holy book does say we were created in his image. The amount of detail contained within a Dream suggests that it is more than mere make believe, although some may point out that the human brain is highly complex and capable of performing billions of calculations per second, so in essence is capable of creating a believable world.

      So many questions, so little time...
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      Quote Originally Posted by longtimelucid View Post
      Hello all Ive been lucid dreaming for over 30 years and Im almost convinced that our minds or souls are transported to another world when lucid dreaming. Based on the realism including sight, taste, touch, smell and real coversations with people Ive never met. Also based on questions I ask others in my lucid dreams. Your thoughts on the possibility that they are not dreams but real?
      First of all: hi! Welcome, I hope you have a good time around DV now I'll focus my speech on the question you made and attack half the world (in the respectful sense )

      Im almost convinced that our minds or souls are transported to another world when lucid dreaming. Based on the realism including sight, taste, touch, smell and real coversations with people Ive never met.
      Why would you think this? When you hallucinate you'd also say that you're in another world? If science already proved that reality is a construct of our minds, I don't see any surprise on why dreams are real, that doesn't indicate any possibility they are real.
      Your experience of asking 3 questions also doesn't prove anything: as DutchRaptor and other people refered, expectation might be the only reason you got those answers. Nothing you experience in the dream world can signal an existence of another world.

      I do not have the answers and if just another dream state or another world I can not prove it is or is not...nobody can.
      Then it's non sense to believe other worlds exist, according to your own statement. Yes, it might exist, but since you can't provide valid justification, there's literally no reason why anyone, including you, should accept the claim. Linking spiritually also doesn't make any sense, because the fact that you believe in spirits and other dimensions doesn't have anything to do with whether they exist or not.

      You see it is not just a dream.
      We've yet to see a valid argument that indicates the possibility of that not being a dream. What you just told seems exactly like a lucid dream, nothing more than that. Even if it didn't sound like a dream, we'd have no reason to believe it wasn't. It's great that you have such strong beliefs, but your tests lack any scientific approach, because for sure they are no falsifiable in any way. The fact that you're not willing to consider the possibility of being wrong doesn't reveal any open-mindedness, but exactly the opposite. You're being close-mindedness by accepting anything without any sort of filter (proof or logic), which is good until you start letting "bad" structured ideas to go inside and cloud your judgement.

      Also, it seemed you had taken at least a somewhat scientific approach, by asking the three questions to many of the DCs
      How? A scientific approach is falsifiable, and by his test, any result he got can be proven to be significant. I'm curious on how people here would think of making an experiment that could prove that those worlds are real. It's impossible 0o trying not to mix things here, but it's exactly the same thing as anyone would want to prove god, and they would say "That message in the sky that says "I'm god, and I exist!"": that wouldn't prove anything.

      Two very good videos I would encourage everyone to read when you discuss these kinds of things:
      Open-mindedness
      Critical thinking

      PS: Even though I reject your arguments due lack of logic in them, I appreciate the opportunity for discussions like this, they're somewhat rare I only sound a bit too "agressive", because I think we can still upgrade these topics to approaches that don't necessarily base themselves in "black and white" thinking, but merely a questioning of any possibility, without taking it for granted. But for all means, let's keep debunking each other's ideas if justified, that's the fun of the it
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      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
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      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      How? A scientific approach is falsifiable, and by his test, any result he got can be proven to be significant.
      I meant that asking the questions seemed like the beginning of a scientific approach, so I brought up a few more questions that would continue that trend. However it quickly became clear that he isn't talking about a physically real world, so most of your points are invalid. Are you prepared to go where the conversation is leading, in a more spiritual direction, or if the other world isn't a scientifically verifiable physical reality are you done?


      Quote Originally Posted by PlanesWalker View Post
      @Darkmatters.
      I'm trying to get my head around your interpretation of shared Dreams...
      I'm working from the concept that shared dreaming might be a form of telepathy, as I've heard suggested on the board before. To set the stage for this idea, think about the fact that, in waking ('real') life, several people can witness exactly the same event and report it very differently - so even if there's a physical reality at its basis, shared human experiences can be viewed quite differently by the people who experienced them. Now think about what we know about dreams - they're built in the mind from memories, thoughts and feelings, and manipulated in sometimes bizarre ways to be symbolic rather than literal. If you encounter another dreamer and you have no idea what they look like, your mind is going to make something up, and their mind will make something up for what you look like right? This seems likely to me, especially considering the extremely malleable nature of self image in dreams - I can be a child in some dreams, an animal in some, and have no body at all in others. Why would I look to another dreamer - especially one who doesn't know what my physical body looks like - the same way I do in waking life?

      Environment - we've all had dreams about being late for class on test day, not having a pencil, not being able to find your locker etc.. personally I've experienced this dream in many different classrooms and school corridors - some of which looked realistic or resemble actual classrooms from my past, some of which were totally surreal and maybe a cross between a little house on the prairie type one-room schoolroom and a cave. Regardless, they're all in some way the same dream, right? The central message of being unprepared to meet what life is throwing at you is the same. So if I were to find myself in such a dream and then see in somebody's DJ the next day that they also dreamed of being in a classroom - even if the visual trappings are totally different, in some sense there's a possibility we were in contact. But I wouldn't say that in itself is enough. Most likely we both managed to activate the familiar 'messed up school dream' schema.

      But let's say in my dream I saw one of the other students jump on top of his desk, fly around the room, and then go out the window while shouting "Tally Ho!" and in the other person's dream they were in a classroom where they couldn't find a pencil, which caused them to go lucid, at which point they jumped on top of their desk, flew around the room, and went out through the wall shouting "Fuuuuck Schooool!"

      Now add to that whatever I did in my dream - maybe in my dream I folded a paper airplane and threw it and that's what I thought caused the other student to decide to fly. Maybe in their dream they saw a student throw a small turtle with wings and it flew around the room, and perhaps that's what sparked their lucidity.

      Not totally the same, but so similar that to me anyway it raises the serious possibility of being a shared dream. Of course to anybody who demands proof, it's not verifiable, but then if you demand proof of everything you don't believe in much, including the 'fact' that dreams are created solely by the mind. To refuse to consider the possibility of something until it's been proven is obviously not a scientific approach - if it was then nobody would ever have investigated anything in order to prove it in the first place! A scientist is willing to suspend judgement and investigate a possibility even if it seems unlikely. (Not aimed at you PlanesWalker).

      Also, as verified in the Robert Stickgold video I posted recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmRGN...layer_embedded it's known that when dreams are serving the purpose of helping us to learn something we struggled to learn that day (one of their primary purposes) they tend to extract the gist of the experience and present that realistically, while exaggerating or distorting other factors like visuals or story. The test consisted of letting people play a video game where they have to solve walking through a maze, then letting them sleep and waking them to ask what they were dreaming about. Many reported walking through mazes, though they didn't necessarily look like the one in the game, there were additional elements added like checkpoints and people standing around that weren't in the game. One person said he dreamed about walking through a cave like he actually did once when he was younger. And this demonstrates the way dreams will call up memories of similar experiences to help you solve the current problem. In some ways walking through that cave as a child taught him things that the sub-c thought would help him to solve this current problem of the maze, so it sort of melded the memories with the maze. Though the visual experience was quite different, the gist of the experiences was the same - navigating a maze.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 02-26-2013 at 10:18 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      I meant that asking the questions seemed like the beginning of a scientific approach, so I brought up a few more questions that would continue that trend.
      It can be an approach, but the act of purely asking questions doesn't put it automatically in the "scientific" field. I guess the key point in your phrase was "somewhat" Also, since we're both on that page, I find it interesting that nowadays there seems to be a negative trend towards positions of skepticism. Specifically speaking:

      I'm not just a diehard materialist trying to debunk everything, I'm open minded about certain things
      Well, I'm also open-minded, and I could may as well be a "diehard materialist trying to debunk everthing". The fact that an idea with X set of arguments shows that those same arguments are illogical, doesn't put anyone in a "close-minded" perspective when they debunk those same arguments. In fact, it makes the discussion more centered about critical thinking AND open-mindedness. )Of course I don't need to say that this isn't a "you belong to this group!" paragraph, because I think you get where I'm going with this )

      However it quickly became clear that he isn't talking about a physically real world, so most of your points are invalid.
      That's a rushed accusation . When have you ever seen my points refer specifically to a physical world? Never. So most of your points are invalid in that same way

      Are you prepared to go where the conversation is leading, in a more spiritual direction, or if the other world isn't a scientifically verifiable physical reality are you done?
      Once again, who said I'm talking about a physical world? I don't find anything in my post regarding "physical reality". And no, I'm not a diehard materialist that debunks everything, I'm merely someone with the opinion that illogical arguments don't make valid points, and the fact of the conversation is heading towards a more "spiritual direction" doesn't invalidate any debunking of illogical arguments. Isn't it far more interesting when we discuss with logic? It doesn't kill the topic, quite the contrary

      Some possible definitions of "real":
      Actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed
      Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence

      Considering one world to be real, whether physically or spiritually (although these concepts still confuse me: how do we even know what "spiritually" means to each one of us? How do we know that we're all using the same definition of real?), just due the sensorial vividness/realism of experience or because there's a pattern in the reality's content, is first of all, something we should analyse AFTER we understand what the OP means by real. And if by real he merely state that "they exist", then it's not a dichotomy. Then the experiences can be dreams AND be real. If he implies that they are real in a sense of "not being dreams", then we have no way of asserting that as true, due lack of reasoning as how that would be possible.

      And PlanesWalker, I think it's a bit rushed off your part to assume that every skeptic here is someone who discards the idea of "other realities". We didn't even settled about what the OP means by "real" and you're already making some sort of accusation that skepticism from some people here is exactly the same as close mindedness. Your post reflects perfectly this negative trend I mentioned. I probably sounded the biggest "skeptic and diehard materialist" here, and I believe in other realities...it depends all on which terms you define "real" as ^^
      Last edited by zoth00; 02-26-2013 at 11:07 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by nito89 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      You have to face lucid dreams as cooking:
      Stick it in the microwave and hope for the best?
      MMR (Mental Map Recall)- A whole new way of Recalling and Journaling your dreams
      Trying out MILD? This is how you become skilled at it.

    20. #20
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      Haha... case in point - we're experiencing a supposedly shared discussion here, and yet our interpretations of it are very different. You don't seem to understand what I meant by some things I said and apparently I misunderstood you as well. Maybe you could drop your insistence on the exact wording I used (which admittedly wasn't perfect) and understand that all I was saying was "It seemed he was beginning to take an investigative approach by asking the three questions, so I posed some additional questions that could take that farther and make it more scientific".

      Some possible definitions of "real":
      Actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed
      Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence
      So part of being real means it can't be imagined or supposed? Then are thoughts, memories and feelings real? How about dreams, are they real? They're just imagined, right? I'd like to hear your honest thoughts on this.

      Also, do you accept, even just as a thought experiment, the idea of telepathy and dream sharing? Neither has been verified, but does that mean they're not possible?

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      I am sorry. This is not another world then, if it is a spiritual place. Worlds are physical places.

      I agree with Zoth on all points. You may believe what you wish, and I can normally see from other people's point of views well, but I haven't seen you express why you have your point of view. The questions could be answered like that in any normal lucid dream. What you are saying is that because you got the same answer many times in a row, and you don't think you effected the outcome it means it is another world? This is the part that confuses me. Explain your logic. You are jumping from point A to point D without bother to talk about B and C. I think that both points look like something fun to hear about and would love to hear the other points. Please express them and do not think me a fool who will not understand.

      If I enter my lucid dream with no thought or expectations then the people and places are always different as if Ive fell into their lives or experiencing their world via someone else.
      This is a point I do not understand. I think it is lost in translation. Are you saying that when you go into a lucid dream you "become" someone else?

      Also, I am not a skeptic as PlanesWalker would have you to beleive. I have heard a lot of what you believe PlanesWalker and it is interesting and a logical idea.

      And Zoth. I think there are very few that do not believe in other "realities" in a broad sense. Any Christian believes that there is a place that loved ones go after death and that there is a spiritual reality that coincides intricately with ours. This is 3 different realities by my definition, though they are all linked. But as you said. We might not all be talking about the same idea of reality. For some might not see what I said as a "different" reality, but an addition to ours. Also dreams are a reality by themselves as they "really" happen. Whether or not they continue on when you are gone or that they are just a place your mind comes up with makes no difference. For they are "real". Just my random thought. I agree with you on your points. Especially to know what he means by reality. I do not like asking defintions of things over and over like sloth and original poster (not trying to bash either of you, it is how you do it though ) do, but this is one thing I would like defined.

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      Brandon, I think you're doing the same thing Zoth is doing - taking things too literally.

      At first I started to do exactlty the same - but then it suddenly occurred to me - maybe he doesn't necessarily mean that the environment itself is a real place, but only that the spirits themselves are 'real' in some sense.

      Do you for example believe Heaven is a real place? With maybe palaces and harps? Or do you believe that's more of just an artistic convention - a way artists have found to represent a more esoteric idea that can't be precisely defined?

      I totally agree with you guys that dreams don't take place in any physical space like a 'world', but I'm willing to grant that maybe the OP just isn't using precise terminology. I suspect all he's trying to say is that the experience itself is real, the spirits are real.

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      I see what you mean, but if you broaden the meaning of real too much then there is no point in believing something is real. Does he mean they are real consciousnesses? Real humans? Real parts of his subconscious? Real spirits?

      He partway explained something and then said that he couldn't convince us and gave up. I am intrigued by what he said, but he hasn't explained it.

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      Yeah I know - I think he left because of too many skeptics tearing into his ideas.

      And I may well be arguing too hard here for something the OP never intended at all. The way he said it, he definitely seems to believe the environment itself is a real place, and he doesn't seem to mean real as in "it's a dream world and dreams are real experiences", he seems to mean that he thinks it's an actual place. I suppose my reasoning was that I could open his mind to the idea that it doesnt have to be a real place in order for the experience itself - the spirits he meets - to be real.

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      Yeah. I wasn't trying to be skeptical, but I might have appeared that way. I hope he comes back. it hasn't yet been 24 hours since he last posted. We should continue this discussion when he returns, if he does.

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