Exploring Delta Sleep

A few days ago, while on another thread, I confirmed that a state of self-awareness like LD’ing is not only possible during Delta Sleep,* but also that the potential for conscious exploration is just as enormous as REM LD’ing. Gab noticed the post, and called me on it.

So, since I’ve been meaning for oh, about a year, to start a thread about delta sleep exploration, I figured now’s as good a time as any…

First, what is delta sleep? Named after the long, slow brain waves produced during this phase of the sleep cycle, Delta is the period of deep, “quiet” sleep that precedes that stage of sleep everyone here knows quite well: REM. Though it repeats throughout a normal night’s sleep as your sleeping body cycles through the stages of sleep, delta lasts longest in its first appearance of the night (often as long as an hour), and occurs between REM periods for shorter amounts of time as the night wears on (down to just a moment if you manage 10 to 12 hours of sleep).

In the LD’ing universe, delta is traditionally held as an obstacle to lucidity. It is that long period of emptiness that makes WILD’s almost impossible to do right at bedtime. But I (and of course many others, especially practitioners of sleep yoga) have found that there may be great value in Delta sleep exploration.

Why? Because, if you’ve got your self-awareness and memory working well, the quiet emptiness of delta, with its thorough lack of active unconscious input, can afford you a unique opportunity to do things such as relax in perfect nothingness, deeply explore your Self, tap your still-dormant dreaming mind in a manner unfettered by existing dreams, explore transcendental states, and, perhaps, connect your awareness to the supernatural-plane type things we all get excited about here, like dream-sharing and AP, all without the distraction and misinformation of your brain’s REM dream engine. That’s all I’ll say about the “why” for now. If anyone’s interested in this stuff, or feels a need to take issue (i.e, “dude, the reason delta sleep is useless is because those long slow waves don’t carry any useful information”), please go ahead and maybe we can start up an interesting conversation.

Gab specifically asked me, on that other thread, to expand on my experiences in delta. I will, if the thread progresses, but for now let me give a quick history of my time in delta:

When I first got interested in dreaming, back in the pre-internet, pre-PC, pre-video game, pre-cell phone dark ages of the 1970’s (what did we do back then?), I tended to attempt to stay awake straight into my dreams when I went to bed at night. LaBerge hadn’t even invented the term “WILD” yet, and I was still a kid in high school with no knowledge of dream physiology, so I didn’t know that WILD at night is a non-no. Needless to say I failed almost every attempt (though I did get lots of DILD’s thanks to my strong intentions and waking-life prep). However, occasionally I would succeed, and found myself drifting in this weird non-space that I would later learn is delta sleep. So, with nothing better to do, I tried stuff.

At first I did little more than pay attention to the nothingness, and in time I noticed it wasn’t necessarily all nothing -- I could hear distant voices if I listened carefully: conversations that were audible, but words that were not quite comprehensible; I could “add” small things like shapes, lights, and (hard to describe) tangible thoughts to the nothingness with some effort. It was kind of cool; and, according to my dream journals from those days, I sensed potential.

But then two things happened: first, I discovered that WILD (I still didn’t call it that, of course) works better after many hours of sleep. Second, I went to college, where I studied the stages of sleep in psychology classes. Those classes, along with lots of independent research in the library, taught me that for my purposes Delta sleep didn’t matter, and could be ignored. So ignore it I did, and began simply going to sleep at night and reserving any LD efforts for the next morning.

Then, some twenty years later, my LD’ing practice was taking me to self-imposed places devoid of all things, all input, places of singular stillness, of real peace, of blank slates set for real creation and unique dives into the ocean of my unconscious, dreaming, mind. At the same time, I heard about this thing called sleep yoga and discovered that it (sleep yoga) was what I had been doing all along -- except that sleep yogis don’t just stay aware in REM, but also in delta. So I put the two together, and realized that it might be time to look at delta again, if only (at first) because it seemed a lot easier to remove everything from my dreams if there was nothing there in the first place. So I did.

Since then, I’ve had several dozen excursions into delta that I could honestly say happened, and were not just HI or false lucids. The experiences varied from the most common ones which were moments of undisturbed oddly linear thoughts, to several occasions of non-dual blissful emptiness, to possible transcendental mind-blowers. Essentially, I had returned to a place I had chanced upon over 30 years ago, and used my time-tested LD’ing tools to make that place both interesting and extremely valuable.

As I’m getting tired of writing, I'm well into “tl;dr” territory, and I'm not sure anyone cares anyway, I’ll leave this at that for now. If anyone’s curious, particularly about: my experiences, how to recognize delta, how to form “dreams” in delta, or why you think I’m full of shit, let me know, and we can continue.


* Delta sleep is known on these forums as NREM, but I'll keep calling it "delta" if that's okay -- the term "NREM" isn't entirely correct in this case, because NREM occurs during other sleep stages that are not delta. Also, it involves too many caps, and sounds kind of nasty.

Sageous, I'm so glad you wrote this, thank you.

Delta exploration sounds very intriguing.

So how can I tell I'm in delta?

Thanks for starting this thread, it looks like a very interesting topic and am looking forward to learning more about delta itself, delta dreaming opportunities as well as other's experiences during this sleep stage. :)

Before posting any deep sleep impressions myself, I will try to mentally go back to those moments to see if I can remember anything interesting about NREM sleep.

Thank you SO MUCH Sageous - for getting Delta Dawn stuck in my head!! :cheeky:

I love threads like this (not that there are many others like it here) - by people who were lucid dreamers even pre-LaBerge and happened upon it all accidentally and explored it on their own terms. For me this post wasn't TL;DR it's TI;RIA (totally interesting; read it all!). And I want to hear some of what you found diving deep into the delta.

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Originally Posted by gab

...So how can I tell I'm in delta?

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Good question! I'm guessing the answer to that is different for each person who consciously experiences the state. Was that a dodge? How about this, then:

If you are familiar with WILD, you will know that there is a "pause," a brief moment of absolute stillness, in between the last vestiges of waking life and the first of dreaming life. If you're doing WILD correctly (including making your attempt in the morning after several hours of sleep), that pause is extremely short, though you likely have experienced it. You may have ignored it, failed to notice it, or noticed it and just didn't care, simply waiting for it to pass in anticipation of things to come; but you likely experienced it.

At night, when you first go to sleep, that pause can be very long, and, if you are able to pay enough attention to it (which I highly recommend, of course), you'll find it is less empty than it seems at first glance: thoughts still stream, but far more slowly and palely than you're used to, and if you listen carefully, you might hear sounds or voices that always stay just out of range (or not; that last bit could just be me). Or you might experience something else altogether; but when your self-awareness enters delta intact, you will recognize the pause for what it is.

I believe that if you are able maintain self-awareness through the entire initial delta period, you will know that you are there, and there will be no confusion with HI or other pre-REM phenomena. Also keep in mind that it is possible to dream that you are in delta, but once you experience the real thing, you will be able to tell the difference.

That may sound vague, but as I said, I'm guessing that the answer to your question is truly different for each person who consciously experiences the state... the pause, however, should be the marker shared by all.

Thanks for typing all of that up! It does seem like an interesting topic to me.

What are some of your past experiences in delta sleep?

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Thank you SO MUCH Sageous - for getting Delta Dawn stuck in my head!! :cheeky:

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Yes, Helen Reddy just emailed me a thank you note that reads, "Someone remembers me!"...

[we may be the only folks on this thread who get this]

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Originally Posted by DragonMaster21

What are some of your past experiences in delta sleep?

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Let me give you three examples in the distinct categories into which they seem to fall (you or others here may find yourself familiar with some of this stuff, I think):

First, there is a state I've often been in, during that long wait for REM, where I am alone in darkness, bodiless, yet with fading but still distant awareness of my physical form. Almost invariably in that state I will hear voices having quiet conversations -- voices I hear quite clearly, but I can never make out the words. At first this drove me nuts, but in time it offered me sort of an odd comfort (it may be the only noise I welcome during normal WILD dives).

Next, another thing that regularly happens is a subtle shift to the thoughts that normally (even in dreams) flutter chaotically about my head like a thick swarm of tireless, annoying butterflies. In delta, thoughts are reduced to just a few, and seem to slow down and stretch out, becoming strangely tangible, as if entities unto themselves. It's difficult to describe, but I guess the best way to try is to say that perhaps these thoughts are the little brothers to the thoughts that become "reality" in dreams. Now the ironic bit: Clear and slow-moving as these thoughts may be, I can to this day remember absolutely no specifics about any of them -- as if they never happened... yet I can still feel their pressure and presence; as if their energy were more significant than their content.

Then there are the rarer bits: On several occasions I held onto my self-awareness long enough to successfully do something during the pause. At first I tried the things I wanted to do in my dreams, like construct the places or situations I wanted to visit, but I quickly found that wasn’t happening -- each attempt left me with either more “nothing” or a loss of self-awareness and surrender to normal sleep and dream (though DILD usually followed, eventually). So, taking the hint from those quiet voices and tangible yet unheard thoughts, I decided to be subtle. Initially, I summoned geometric shapes in primary colors with some success, and even managed to visit a few strange places, though those places were always very dim, very gray, and oddly immersed in the wind of my body’s distant breath (I never did figure that one out!). More occurred, some of it certainly fun and novel, but suffice it to say that image-making in this state is a limited process indeed, perhaps due to the disconnect with the physical mechanisms that create dreams during REM. Oh, and pretty much all of my perceived OBE experiences started from this state -- I never thought much of that, but it might be worth mentioning here..

Beyond these clear (ha, ha) examples are the precious few transcendental moments when I could command my self-awareness with enough gusto to try the big stuff -- like taking a metaphoric dive into the ocean of my unconscious to see how deep I could go, what or with whom I might be swimming with, and whether I could pour that ocean into a spiritual cup and take it home with me. Those were amazing dives, but I have trouble describing them both because my memory of where I went is fraught with things I cannot describe even to myself, much less others, and because I cannot honestly say whether these things truly happened during delta, or were perhaps given to me later in REM -- It’s all too vague, but suffice it to say that some very excellent stuff was initiated by my interest and conscious presence in delta.

That’s all I got for now… I’m going to take some time this week to browse my dream journals and see if there’s something interesting that I may have forgotten (though I doubt that could happen!).

Thanks for your interest guys, and I hope that answer holds it for a bit! Feel free to discuss, deny, demand elaboration, or, perhaps, add your own experiences...

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Originally Posted by Sageous

... and if you listen carefully, you might hear sounds or voices that always stay just out of range ...

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I was WILDing today and on a grey background, I started hearing voices in the distance. As you would hear many voices from a crowded restaurant. Same as I imagened it would sound, when I was reading your post.

I'm not saying it was from delta. I was WILDing early morning, so most likely it was regular HH. But I was able to think "hey, this is what sageous was talking about". I like how my mind remembers everything I read here on DV with interest. Btw, this was my only second auditory voice HH. It was interesting.

During the first hours of the night, as expected I don't have many dreams, but have noticed that from time to time have audio dreams. These may be some form of HH, but they do seem to continue for a rather long time. Like I begin falling asleep and some HH HI would start and after I fall unconsciously asleep, this conversation between me and someone or my mind? would go on for hours, I would sometimes be aware that I am having these dream conversations, and as I wake up in an 1-3hrs I would know they have been going the whole time. I usually cannot recall anything of those conversations though, because they occur in deep sleep. Could that be related to delta somehow?

I will continue on my new task to pay more attention to everything as I fall asleep. Hopefully this becomes a habit in the future and I make some more practical discoveries.:)

@ sageous

How do you keep yourself aware? Same as when WILDing?

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

During the first hours of the night, as expected I don't have many dreams, but have noticed that from time to time have audio dreams. These may be some form of HH, but they do seem to continue for a rather long time. Like I begin falling asleep and some HH HI would start and after I fall unconsciously asleep, this conversation between me and someone or my mind? would go on for hours, I would sometimes be aware that I am having these dream conversations, and as I wake up in an 1-3hrs I would know they have been going the whole time. I usually cannot recall anything of those conversations though, because they occur in deep sleep. Could that be related to delta somehow?

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Yes, it very well could.

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I will continue on my new task to pay more attention to everything as I fall asleep. Hopefully this becomes a habit in the future and I make some more practical discoveries.:)

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Always a good plan...let us know if you find anything, especially if its something that's been there all along!

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Originally Posted by gab

How do you keep yourself aware? Same as when WILDing?

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Yes, it's pretty much the same as with WILD'ing; it's also the same as with waking life, for that matter.

Maintaining self-awareness is no different during delta, except maybe you need a little extra patience, and really must be comfortable with nothing going on for long stretches of time.

Ok, now the silly question. You do need to fall asleep to experience delta, right? So you just keep your awareness and observe delta stage.

Thanks for the feedback and for taking time to write all these explanations and experiences. :)
Looking forward to future insights and discoveries for all of us. :dreaming:

@ gab, I also think that delta waves can occur during meditation. With regards to that it probably doesn't matter if you are asleep or awake because if you are into deep delta meditation, you are kind of asleep anyways. If you manage to keep yourself awake while completely shutting off the internal dialogue when meditating you get all kinds of indescribable experiences, like sageous would put it.

But if you were to ask me, how can you be sure it's delta waves during meditation, for me, it feels like a very deep relaxation where you don't seem to care what you are engaged with anymore, yet you remain totally alert. You feel as if you are totally merged with the room, which may become obscured by light patterns (if your eyes are open during the meditation), etc and it may even disappear. Whenever that has began to happen, I would usually be too startled to let the world shut down and see what's behind the room becoming pixels and disappearing while my eyes are wide open. I guess effects can go even deeper with even more delta waves...yogis know best...

Sorry to drift off topic here, decided it might relate a bit to delta sleep though.

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Originally Posted by gab

Ok, now the silly question. You do need to fall asleep to experience delta, right? So you just keep your awareness and observe delta stage.

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Yes indeedy, Gab, you do need to fall asleep to experience delta.

Not to contradict NyxCC (because he's right; more in a sec), but delta occurs long after your body has begun its slumber. In the normal cycle, your body has already passed through two stages of sleep before you even reach delta. In those first two stages you're drifting between wake and sleep, but you have begun the process of being asleep. In other words, you're already asleep by the time delta turns up -- which makes it all that much harder to get to it, and through it, consciously.

Not so silly a question, though, given all this talk about staying awake! ;)

A brief WILD aside: those early stages are the times you most need to do your mantra and hold your focus during WILD, because they're the times your mind is most apt to wander (because, of course, you've begun to fall asleep).


NyxCC: I too have heard that a (very) deeply meditating person can reach a state that produces delta waves, but I think you'd have to go even deeper than the state you describe.

Delta really is a state of complete conscious isolation. During the meditation you described, I think delta waves would likely start being made at the extreme end, after you've shut off your physical perception tools and set aside all input from the world (including your own body); indeed, probably just after that moment where you noted you tend to get startled.

I am confident that some yogis can, and do, do this, especially hyper-advanced practitioners of Samadhi yoga and, of course, sleep yoga. It would also be easy to prove, if you can get a meditating yogi hooked up to an EEG!

So, yes, I agree that delta waves can be produced during meditation, but it would have to be some very advanced meditating. Easier, I think, just to fall asleep with your self-awareness intact and let your body do the reality erasing for you...

I agree with you sageous, the true delta state would most likely start after the room shuts down. That would mean that at that point delta waves would be the predominant waves. Before that in the state I am describing, I think though, that delta waves begin to emerge and are present in the brain together with other waves. But I can't prove that unless I hook myself to EEG, and if that happens I probably won't be able to meditate at all.;)

One thing I forgot to mention, why I feel so confident it is deep meditation - my breath. Usually during the deeper levels of meditation I notice three breathing patterns I associate with different deep meditation experiences. Those are not in a sequence or according to scale, I just list them.

Pattern1: somewhat slower and deeper breathing than light meditation
Pattern2: such a slow breath not so deep as Pattern1, that often gets me wonder how I can even get enough oxigen, this is my most relaxed yet alert lightweight state
Pattern3: a temporary breath shifting, where I actually feel like something is forcing me to inhale deeper, and my breathing speeds up by itself, this is when the room tries to shut down ( this breathing gets me more agitated not the other way around)

That really got me thinking about a possible pet project that you could also try if you are interested. Trying to record breathing patterns during sleep to see if you can pinpoint delta. I would also like to compare sleep breath with meditation breath for myself. Now all I have to do is find a good recorder, and hope this works.:)

^^ That sounds like an interesting project, NyxCC, but for me there is but one problem: In delta sleep -- and likely in delta-wave producing meditation, there is no breath.

Remember that this is the "deep sleep" stage of sleep, when you are completely removed from your bodily and mental activity (hence the slow wide brain waves), so any ability to register your rate of breathing will likely be absent. Indeed, during my self-aware moments in delta, I noticed what I assumed later to be my breath only as a distantly based, quiet, yet all-pervasive wind. I don't think I would have the faculties to register the source and rate of that wind, and I have a feeling that if I did, I would rapidly rise from delta.

Though I've never been there myself, I would guess the same would work for meditation: In order to truly approach the ultimate "letting go" that delta-level meditation would require, you would, I imagine, need to quietly dispense with things like minding your breathing until that breathing is simply no longer there, and delta meditation has "room" to ensue.

Of course, I could be wrong. But, given what I know of delta, both from science and personal experience, I think attempting to track my breathing during delta sleep would not be helpful for me.

I like your wind- like explanation of the breath. I agree with what you said, trying to monitor the breath yourself can be hard, I was thinking using a voice recorder next to your head.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

I like your wind- like explanation explanation of the breath. I agree with what you said, trying to monitor the breath yourself can be hard, I was thinking using a voice recorder next to your head.

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Now that would work... as a matter of fact, it would be interesting to record my breath throughout the night, just to see how close my actual breathing is to what I think I'm doing.

I hope you try it out ... if you do, I also hope you'll share the results!

So, can I stay in one continuous, aware, and lucid dream state all night? Slowly drifting in and out of my meditative delta states and my action packed LDs? I love you.

And how would I enter the delta (because I have no chance of DILD in NREM)? Should I just WILD without prior sleep? Also, off-topic, but did sleep yogis in Buddhism use WILD or DILD methods exclusively or did they use both?

I really would like to try that out, just have to find a good voice recorder, because I don't want to keep the mobile phone too close to my body. When I do that I will share any findings. Will also be happy to read your impressions if you decide to do that as well.

Great topic! Thanks for posting this, Sageous.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Yes, it's pretty much the same as with WILD'ing; it's also the same as with waking life, for that matter.

Maintaining self-awareness is no different during delta, except maybe you need a little extra patience, and really must be comfortable with nothing going on for long stretches of time.

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Did you perform any particular training in order to prepare yourself for staying aware all the way to the darkness of delta sleep? I mean, apart from practicing lucid dreaming for 40 years, which I'm sure doesn't hurt. :)

A dive this deep sounds like a pretty daunting journey. (You should see how much I pat myself on the back for a basic WILD!) How would you recommend someone start down this road if they were interested in where it leads?

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Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

...Did you perform any particular training in order to prepare yourself for staying aware all the way to the darkness of delta sleep? I mean, apart from practicing lucid dreaming for 40 years, which I'm sure doesn't hurt.

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Nope, no particular training... just a whole lot of practice (much of it trial and error at first), a whole lot of failure, and a whole lot of patience. Indeed, unless you're willing to go to Tibet for several years, I doubt there is any particular "training" you can get from a third party in this department; and, for that matter, I'm not a big fan of training and all these techniques birthed by the internet anyway -- better to simply learn to maintain self-awareness and memory. And, though 30+ years of dream work, with WILD as a primary tool, didn't hurt either, keep in mind I had my first delta experiences decades ago... interest, focus, and adherence to the fundamentals can get you a long way quite quickly.

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A dive this deep sounds like a pretty daunting journey. (You should see how much I pat myself on the back for a basic WILD!) How would you recommend someone start down this road if they were interested in where it leads?

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Yes, it is daunting, but not impossible. I guess my best recommendation, which I think I might have made last paragraph, would be to get very good at WILD. If you can master holding your focus and self-awareness for long
stretches and through the various stages of sleep that WILD entails, then you're halfway there. After that, all you need is patience and a powerful waking-life interest in visiting delta sleep. Beyond that, I guess an interest in sleep yoga would help, as would spending time in your "regular" LD's trying to erase all the scenery and schemata in a "non-dual" manner.

I hope that helped...

One time I remember waking up from sleep in void of nothing. It seemed I was just awareness hovering in a blank space. Fully aware of what was happening I asked A question and that question was answered instantaneously through a hyper vivid symbol. It's gold shimmering appearance just floated in the black void all by its self and I knew it to be the answer I was looking for. :-).

^^ That's an excellent example of a delta sleep moment, Dreamcatcher, thank you!

Very impressive also that you had the sense to ask a question.

Thought seems to flow with a different pace and content during delta, one that seems to defy language and most metaphor. I've often suspected that this might be because, when self-aware in delta we are "plugged" into our unconscious mind in a slightly different, perhaps more direct manner, if only because the standard plug for communication -- dreams -- has not yet been activated. Asking a question during delta -- especially one that relates directly to your Self, if that makes sense -- could lead to a very clear, direct response. I've found that the simple symbols, tones, and light-shows that often come back directly are unintelligible, but every now and then one shines through that just makes sense.

Oh, and for those who say "Well of course it makes sense, because you wanted it to make sense," I say: Fine. Is there something wrong with you attaching meaning to a message your own mind just sent to you?

If I may: When you asked, did you use specific words or project a feeling or image of the question?

It was a very specific question. But asked in a commanding manner. As in show me what it is I seek this instant. The answer I received came in the form of a symbol a symbol that was very relevant to what was going on in my life at the time. The information contained in the symbol was not symbolic in its self. Instead It was a crystal clear explanation with out words. I did not question the validity of the symbol or the information that came along with it maybe because of its hyper real appearance. It was like looking at something you've seen every day but in micro scopic detail with out zooming in on the object 1000 times over. I wanted to test the symbol's vality but was too awe struck to focus and write the information down.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

When I first got interested in dreaming, back in the pre-internet, pre-PC, pre-video game, pre-cell phone dark ages of the 1970’s (what did we do back then?)....

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LSD

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Originally Posted by Sageous

If anyone’s curious, particularly about: my experiences, how to recognize delta, how to form “dreams” in delta, or why you think I’m full of shit, let me know, and we can continue.

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For whatever its worth....You know how if you run a faucet really low, it drips, then a little higher it has a nice smooth flow, then a little higher it gets choppy with big droplets again, then higher it does something else? Obviously these distinct states are not designed in somehow. A lot of dynamics like this can be modeled fairly easily with differential equations, and if you change the magnitude of the forcing term, that's just what it does. I think that states of sleep are a lot like this. Researchers take a small sample of people, measure brain activity, and organize what they see into different categories of sleep. But not all people are tuned in exactly the same way. To push the faucet analogy further, depending on the shape of the faucet there may be no smooth flow period. But that doesn't mean that its dysfunctional somehow, that something essential isn't getting done.

I go through phases lasting a few months or years where it seems to me that I'm conscious pretty much the entire time I'm asleep. I'm thinking while I'm asleep, even though the sensate processing and motor control stuff is shut off. And if there is an external event like a baby waking up, it seems as if I'm always in the middle of a thought while that is happening, not coming out of some kind of deep stupor. (I realize my impression of this can't be entirely reliable, since my measuring tool is also what I'm trying to measure.) For the last year or so I've been less aware while asleep though, maybe more like what most other people experience except with a larger number of vivid dreams. Anyway, my point is just that I think these sleep categories can tend to break down, just like how the lucid vs non-lucid distinction isn't very meaningful if you're not a person who dreams about being awake. This isn't mean to contradict anything you said.

Some people have a passive, visually imaginative phase that they go through as they fall asleep. I don't have that. It takes me about an hour to fall asleep, during which time I'm completely awake then the transition is abrupt, there is no sound or picture imagination, and if there's a period when I'm not aware at all its after that. From what you describe that sounds like the delta phase. I never remember the initial instant of falling asleep, though I may be aware at other times when I'm not 'dreaming' with sounds or pictures or language-like thoughts. Other experiences like astral projection always occur when I'm transitioning towards waking up.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

LSD

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:chuckle:

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For whatever its worth....You know how if you run a faucet really low, it drips, then a little higher it has a nice smooth flow, then a little higher it gets choppy with big droplets again, then higher it does something else? Obviously these distinct states are not designed in somehow. A lot of dynamics like this can be modeled fairly easily with differential equations, and if you change the magnitude of the forcing term, that's just what it does. I think that states of sleep are a lot like this. Researchers take a small sample of people, measure brain activity, and organize what they see into different categories of sleep. But not all people are tuned in exactly the same way. To push the faucet analogy further, depending on the shape of the faucet there may be no smooth flow period. But that doesn't mean that its dysfunctional somehow, that something essential isn't getting done.

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And, to stretch that analogy just a mite further: when you're using that water around the house, it has definite value as a trickle sometimes, as a coarse flow sometimes, and as as close to as smooth a flow as possible sometimes. Yes, the same water is coming out every time, but in very different potential forms (due to chosen force), and your needs and interests both define those forms and utilize them as appropriate. [This sounded deep and meaningful when I wrote it; not so much now ... so be kind if you respond!]

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I go through phases lasting a few months or years where it seems to me that I'm conscious pretty much the entire time I'm asleep. I'm thinking while I'm asleep, even though the sensate processing and motor control stuff is shut off. And if there is an external event like a baby waking up, it seems as if I'm always in the middle of a thought while that is happening, not coming out of some kind of deep stupor. (I realize my impression of this can't be entirely reliable, since my measuring tool is also what I'm trying to measure.) For the last year or so I've been less aware while asleep though, maybe more like what most other people experience except with a larger number of vivid dreams. Anyway, my point is just that I think these sleep categories can tend to break down, just like how the lucid vs non-lucid distinction isn't very meaningful if you're not a person who dreams about being awake. This isn't mean to contradict anything you said.

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Yes, though the averages seem to hold, these patterns definitely vary (i.e., my wife suffers/enjoys a form of narcolepsy where she is in REM sleep immediately, delta seems to come in the middle of her night, and her NREM transitional stages are nonexistent). But I believe that all sleepers must experience delta, as that is the period of real rest and revitalization. And, of course, by its nature delta would only be a meaningful stage if you make it meaningful. Otherwise it would simply pass unnoticed and subjectively very quickly.

For what it's worth: Though I have no doubt that your conscious state during sleep is unusual, there is a chance that you actually only hear that baby crying during non-delta NREM and REM: your stupor is simply too deep during delta to be disturbed. Just a thought.

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Some people have a passive, visually imaginative phase that they go through as they fall asleep. I don't have that. It takes me about an hour to fall asleep, during which time I'm completely awake then the transition is abrupt, there is no sound or picture imagination, and if there's a period when I'm not aware at all its after that. From what you describe that sounds like the delta phase. I never remember the initial instant of falling asleep, though I may be aware at other times when I'm not 'dreaming' with sounds or pictures or language-like thoughts. Other experiences like astral projection always occur when I'm transitioning towards waking up.

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You and I fall asleep in exactly the same way. Interesting.

That "passive, visually imaginative phase" is likely the early drifting between waking and sleep [most] people do before finally entering delta, but not delta itself. When measured, scientists found that that early phase produces alpha and beta waves rather than delta waves, so that "flow" hasn't become a drip yet. It's during this phase that a sleeper is wandering between consciousness and physiological sleep, and images can get interesting... So it is an NREM phase but it is not delta. Moments just before waking are indeed very similar, which would make them more conducive to AP (and LD'ing, for that matter), because the water flow has increased from the roughness of REM to the smoother flow of waking consciousness, but the memory of earlier flow is still strong. I think the water analogy may have run dry..

I think the reason you may not remember the instant you fall asleep is that that is the time you are in delta -- and it might be a whole lot longer than an instant. Just another thought.

[PS -- I just read over this post and determined it is all a jumble, but will post anyway.]

Yes I don't know how long the initial oblivious stage is. And I agree it could be long. I think there have been times when I feel bored even in that stage though, and am vaguely aware of my surroundings.

I don't think there are periods where I don't hear what's going on around me though, even if that hearing is processed subconsciously during the initial oblivious stage. It seems that if there is an unusual sound at any time while I'm asleep I always wake up immediately, based on the absence off experiences where someone talks to me or something happens and I miss the first couple seconds of it because I'm sleeping. I'm guessing this kind of awareness is common, its part of how we keep from getting killed by wild animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

And I agree it could be long. I think there have been times when I feel bored even in that stage though, and am vaguely aware of my surroundings.

---

Yes, awareness during delta seems remarkably conducive to boredom, or at least disinterest. I've tended to find peace in such environments, though (in waking life, too).

Quote:

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I don't think there are periods where I don't hear what's going on around me though, even if that hearing is processed subconsciously during the initial oblivious stage. It seems that if there is an unusual sound at any time while I'm asleep I always wake up immediately, based on the absence off experiences where someone talks to me or something happens and I miss the first couple seconds of it because I'm sleeping. I'm guessing this kind of awareness is common, its part of how we keep from getting killed by wild animals.

---

Yes, our reticular system is definitely wired, still, to wake us up if we're disturbed (or we're starting to fall out of the tree, I suppose). I believe that the one small exception to that is delta, when, for a brief time, our attention is removed enough from the world that it takes substantial stimulation to wake us up. This could be why delta comes first, so you can be least attentive right after you were just awake and reasonably secure.

There are always exceptions, though, including light sleepers and those whose waking consciousness tends to linger throughout sleep -- you might fall into both those categories.

Well, talk about amazing coincidences. I have just started a thread about this very same topic.
I have been trying out Sivasons Dream Yoga for a couple of weeks, and started becoming aware, before dream states begin.
The state I am experiencing looks like this.

Attachment 5442

the image should be slightly blurred, and moves very slowly.
Is this what you have experienced ?

^^ Not exactly, but I've definitely experienced similar. My closest image to that would be a thick, thick fog made of whisps of many shades of gray that swirls very slowly.

It certainly appears to me that you might have tapped into delta... any plans for next time?

I would like to ask few questions if you don't mind, when we go to sleep for about an hour or 40 minutes and we are getting a lucid dream what happens to Delta and REM?

When we wake up in the morning and we go back to sleep in few minutes, do we simply skip Delta and are getting back to REM directly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Not exactly, but I've definitely experienced similar. My closest image to that would be a thick, thick fog made of whisps of many shades of gray that swirls very slowly.

It certainly appears to me that you might have tapped into delta... any plans for next time?

---

No plans as such, but last night I tried to reach the same state.
I did not reach delta, but had an amazingly long, very clear dream with several DV member in.
I can only remember saying, "we have done it"
The rest of the dream just dissolved into nothingness.
This is unusual for me, as if I remember dreams, I can keep them clear long enough to write them down.
I had the full dream in memory when I woke, and was in a very good mood, as I thought I had made a breakthrough.
Then as the seconds passed, the dream began to fade.
I have just managed to get this down, and it has now all disappeared.
Another attempt will be made some time today. I intend to sneak off to bed, and have another go.
If caught, I can claim that I was trying out a new meditation technique, and fell asleep.
Have you had any more experiences ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flowofmysoul

...when we go to sleep for about an hour or 40 minutes and we are getting a lucid dream what happens to Delta and REM?

---

Usually NREM (of which delta is a substantial part) lasts about 90 minutes in the beginning of a night's sleep. It doesn't need to last that long, but that is typical. As the night wears on, delta periods are shorter and shorter, therefore making REM periods closer and closer together. After several hours of sleep (usually more than 5), REM periods are so close together, and delta periods so short that they are pretty much nonexistent. Delta also tends to be absent during naps, because your body has simply not settled into a full night's sleep.

So, if you are napping, or if you happened to have a short delta period, you could certainly have a LD within an hour of going to sleep. Also, if you are in any way narcoleptic, you could begin dreaming as soon as you fall asleep at night. There is no hard fast rule for all people in this.

Quote:

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When we wake up in the morning and we go back to sleep in few minutes, do we simply skip Delta and are getting back to REM directly?

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Yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TiredPhil

Have you had any more experiences ?

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Sure. In the name of expedience (and sheer laziness), I hope you won't mind if I just quote myself from post #8 of this thread:

Quote:

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Let me give you three examples in the distinct categories into which they seem to fall (you or others here may find yourself familiar with some of this stuff, I think):

First, there is a state I've often been in, during that long wait for REM, where I am alone in darkness, bodiless, yet with fading but still distant awareness of my physical form. Almost invariably in that state I will hear voices having quiet conversations -- voices I hear quite clearly, but I can never make out the words. At first this drove me nuts, but in time it offered me sort of an odd comfort (it may be the only noise I welcome during normal WILD dives).

Next, another thing that regularly happens is a subtle shift to the thoughts that normally (even in dreams) flutter chaotically about my head like a thick swarm of tireless, annoying butterflies. In delta, thoughts are reduced to just a few, and seem to slow down and stretch out, becoming strangely tangible, as if entities unto themselves. It's difficult to describe, but I guess the best way to try is to say that perhaps these thoughts are the little brothers to the thoughts that become "reality" in dreams. Now the ironic bit: Clear and slow-moving as these thoughts may be, I can to this day remember absolutely no specifics about any of them -- as if they never happened... yet I can still feel their pressure and presence; as if their energy were more significant than their content.

Then there are the rarer bits: On several occasions I held onto my self-awareness long enough to successfully do something during the pause. At first I tried the things I wanted to do in my dreams, like construct the places or situations I wanted to visit, but I quickly found that wasn’t happening -- each attempt left me with either more “nothing” or a loss of self-awareness and surrender to normal sleep and dream (though DILD usually followed, eventually). So, taking the hint from those quiet voices and tangible yet unheard thoughts, I decided to be subtle. Initially, I summoned geometric shapes in primary colors with some success, and even managed to visit a few strange places, though those places were always very dim, very gray, and oddly immersed in the wind of my body’s distant breath (I never did figure that one out!). More occurred, some of it certainly fun and novel, but suffice it to say that image-making in this state is a limited process indeed, perhaps due to the disconnect with the physical mechanisms that create dreams during REM. Oh, and pretty much all of my perceived OBE experiences started from this state -- I never thought much of that, but it might be worth mentioning here..

Beyond these clear (ha, ha) examples are the precious few transcendental moments when I could command my self-awareness with enough gusto to try the big stuff -- like taking a metaphoric dive into the ocean of my unconscious to see how deep I could go, what or with whom I might be swimming with, and whether I could pour that ocean into a spiritual cup and take it home with me. Those were amazing dives, but I have trouble describing them both because my memory of where I went is fraught with things I cannot describe even to myself, much less others, and because I cannot honestly say whether these things truly happened during delta, or were perhaps given to me later in REM -- It’s all too vague, but suffice it to say that some very excellent stuff was initiated by my interest and conscious presence in delta.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Usually NREM (of which delta is a substantial part) lasts about 90 minutes in the beginning of a night's sleep. It doesn't need to last that long, but that is typical. As the night wears on, delta periods are shorter and shorter, therefore making REM periods closer and closer together. After several hours of sleep (usually more than 5), REM periods are so close together, and delta periods so short that they are pretty much nonexistent. Delta also tends to be absent during naps, because your body has simply not settled into a full night's sleep.

So, if you are napping, or if you happened to have a short delta period, you could certainly have a LD within an hour of going to sleep. Also, if you are in any way narcoleptic, you could begin dreaming as soon as you fall asleep at night. There is no hard fast rule for all people in this.



Yes.

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I dont know if i am narcoleptic, but i can LD when i go for a quick nap, and enter my dream very fast.

^^ Which is why it's an excellent idea to attempt LD's during naps.

I tried this going to sleep last night, and wow is it ever difficult. I was trying so hard to clear my mind of all thoughts, and it went something like this :

"Ignore that... don't pay attention to it... don't think about anything, just think about what it's like to have a clear mind... but crap that's a thought as well! Must... not... think... about not thinking..."

So at some point I decided to stop fighting it. I decided to take another approach, and went into a "passive mode" where I was no longer the central focus of a thought, but just a listener to what came up. And what I observed was a ton of incoherent chatter and random noise. As time passed it seemed to lessen in intensity, but unfortunately I ended up falling asleep at some point. This did keep me "awake" for a solid half hour or even longer than usual, so I did lose some sleep over it. Hopefully this gets easier (somewhat quickly) with practice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blade5x

"Ignore that... don't pay attention to it... don't think about anything, just think about what it's like to have a clear mind... but crap that's a thought as well! Must... not... think... about not thinking..."

---

Well. That pretty much describes most of my meditation efforts; very familiar indeed! And yet there comes a point when the thoughts finally do slow down to a manageable torrent; a point that for me is reached only with patience and a steady mind that manages somehow to corral the endless random thoughts. There are a few tricks, though: Ever try mantras or (mental) mandalas to ease your mind, or perhaps to help learn to allow the thoughts to pass by unattended?

Or, perhaps you can just stop fighting it:

Quote:

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So at some point I decided to stop fighting it. I decided to take another approach, and went into a "passive mode" where I was no longer the central focus of a thought, but just a listener to what came up. And what I observed was a ton of incoherent chatter and random noise. As time passed it seemed to lessen in intensity, but unfortunately I ended up falling asleep at some point. This did keep me "awake" for a solid half hour or even longer than usual, so I did lose some sleep over it. Hopefully this gets easier (somewhat quickly) with practice.

---

That's an excellent idea, but it has one small risk: a passive mind tends to lose self-awareness, and lost self-awareness means you miss the lucidity boat, in delta or REM. Still, if you keep your wits about it, it could work with practice.

I hope that when it gets easier, and when you have a moment or two in delta, you'll share the experience (and remind us how you got there)... it would be greatly appreciated!

Another thought on this:

I did a little exploring this morning, and emerged with the realization that I hadn’t made very clear an important point about Blade5x's problem with clearing thoughts, and my problem with that torrent of untamed thoughts:

One of the more attractive aspects of delta for me is that it is the one place I can go where that torrent of thoughts will not follow. By its very nature it has the potential of being a place defined by nothing, or at most a disorganized nothing so well described above by Tired Phil.

So, if you are bothered by thoughts that just keep coming, random thoughts, contradictory thoughts, or thoughts that seem to argue with your very purpose as you attempt to reach a goal, as Blade5x illustrated above, delta offers a break from that mess.

After I drifted this morning on the edge of that nothingness, it came to me that I should have repeated that this nothingness is one of my favorite salves of delta. So, Blade5x, should you reach delta, you too will enjoy a moment of “thoughtlessness,” and it will happen without trying.

Sageous, i wrote this topic - http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ll-asleep.html

I am having two different ways of how i get lucid, in first one i know where is Delta Sleep, in second there is no delta sleep and no delay of dream, i get my dream before i fall asleep completely. What do you think is happening in second scenario?

Now I have tried dozens of different so called sound based meditations.
So many out there on the internet that a person could easily get lost in the confusion.
Then I searched Google for "Reaching delta sleep"
By chance, the first video I came accross worked first time.
It only took me a min' or so, and I was in another state of mind. Eyes were closed
All external input ceased, and I was sat there in an inner mind state.
I could just detect my breath. Hands felt like they were swolen to a great extent.
The state lasted only ten mins' but the experience was new, and exciting.
Please have a listen with headphones, and give your opinion.
This is the only time I have ever been influenced by sound.
I am off to have another go, just to validate that it was the sound that caused the experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vas8OdHZKcw

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flowofmysoul

Sageous, i wrote this topic - http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ll-asleep.html

I am having two different ways of how i get lucid, in first one i know where is Delta Sleep, in second there is no delta sleep and no delay of dream, i get my dream before i fall asleep completely. What do you think is happening in second scenario?

---

I'm not sure what causes that second scenario. My first thought was narcolepsy, but I read the OP on your thread, and see you've already tossed that out. Another guess might be that your sleep cycles don't folow the norm, which can and does happen: you may simply be starting REM earlier, and the NREM occurs at another time... this seems simplistic, but it could be the case. My only other guess, which I'm sure you've also explored, is that you are losing awareness for a time and simply emerging in REM on schedule, but feeling like the transition was instant.

In other words, you're probably fine, just a bit different.

That's all I have for now; I'll chime in on your thread if I come up with something else.

If I understand what flowofmysoul is talking about, I think this is common. My sister does this, and my friend who doesn't dream very lucidly does this. Probably a lot of other people do it I think, most people just don't talk about this sort of thing. They just relax and their imagination goes free, like a dream, then their mind lets go of the 'outward' control and they're asleep and dreaming. It doesn't work that way for me unless I've already been asleep for a long time and have just woken up though. Maybe you can see this in my ponderously analytical nature - that part of my mind doesn't let go very easily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

I'm not sure what causes that second scenario. My first thought was narcolepsy, but I read the OP on your thread, and see you've already tossed that out. Another guess might be that your sleep cycles don't folow the norm, which can and does happen: you may simply be starting REM earlier, and the NREM occurs at another time... this seems simplistic, but it could be the case. My only other guess, which I'm sure you've also explored, is that you are losing awareness for a time and simply emerging in REM on schedule, but feeling like the transition was instant.

In other words, you're probably fine, just a bit different.

That's all I have for now; I'll chime in on your thread if I come up with something else.

---

Thx for your reply. I already answered to a similar question regarding lost awareness in OP.

I cant say that second scenario is better then first, I think going through all those cycles normally makes a whole different level of dreaming. I believe there are several types of dreams, around 5. The ones that I experience when I go to sleep without loosing lucidity are pretty simple, I am creator of my world, I can create anything I want, have fun and so on. There I can do all crazy stuff that comes to my mind, also there I can easily perform OBE/Astral and make some experiments.

But since I am lucid dreaming for a long time, I prefer another dreams. Dreams where world is generated before I become aware, dreams where real laws of nature occur, laws of our world or laws of other worlds. Dreams where I can control only what I do and where I cannot manipulate what is going on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

If I understand what flowofmysoul is talking about, I think this is common. My sister does this, and my friend who doesn't dream very lucidly does this. Probably a lot of other people do it I think, most people just don't talk about this sort of thing. They just relax and their imagination goes free, like a dream, then their mind lets go of the 'outward' control and they're asleep and dreaming. It doesn't work that way for me unless I've already been asleep for a long time and have just woken up though. Maybe you can see this in my ponderously analytical nature - that part of my mind doesn't let go very easily.

---

In the beginning when I just started lucid dreaming I also could do this only when I just woke up. Some part of it is different and some is the same, I cannot say that process of going back to dream is absolutely identical to the process of going to dream from awake.

Oh I am grateful I found this, although somewhat late.

I have been reading some B.A.Wallace books and he describes shamata without a sign or awareness of awareness as a way to fall asleep consciously. I also have tried visualizations in the heart chakra or just watching my thoughts which is more often recommended in other books. I like the first one because the focus is not to care about mind content but just the feling of being aware, which I found very relaxing and easy, but also easy to fall asleep.


Usually I just fall asleep, other times I have some different quality of sleep, but I can't say that I am sure I had accomplished sleep yoga.

One thing i can notice and find very interesting while falling asleep, specially if I try to keep my mind active, is a particular moment where thoughts get weird and some time after this I find I can't even think or remember what I was thinking before. My memory gets impaired and I seem to experience a sort of blankness. I feel like in the edge of falling asleep and loosing consciousness. I don' t know if this is something Sageous described as the pause. it's very interesting to explore these things. I really would like to learn to sleep consciously, and somehow I think it may be like my ultimate LD technique, so to speak, although this is not my only motivation.

Thank you guys for this topic, I have to read it further and better and I am sure i will post again here. Now I will return to sleep, hopefully I can WILD after this one hour wbtb ( hope my iPad light doesn't hurt )

I forgot to mention that another option or possibility according to B.A Wallace ( Dreaming yourself while awake ) is to focus gently on hypnagogic imagery. This seems also an interesting and perhaps easier approach. I will quote him, this is available for preview on google books.

Quote:

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Another WILD approach is to pay attention to hypnagogic
imagery as you fall asleep. This can be done either when you fall
asleep at bedtime or upon awakening during the night. If you
are able to maintain some clarity-to stretch your attention a
little further than normal into the process of falling asleepyou
will be able to detect broken images, dreamlets, and a variety
of visual patterns that are part of the process of losing
consciousness as we fall asleep. These images occur in a space
between initial drowsiness and light sleep (that is, during NREM
1). If we are able to maintain lucidity through this transition, we
will find ourselves in NREM 2 and conscious of dreamless sleep.
Maintaining your attention on hypnagogic imagery requires
that you observe in a very gentle and passive manner. View these
images without becoming excited, making no attempt to hold
onto or enhance them. If you can maintain this delicate balance,
eventually full-fledged dreams may form from them. Remain
passive, and simply allow yourself to be drawn into the
dream. Preparing to fall asleep using the shamatha practice at
the beginning of this chapter is very helpful in this approach.
This type of WILD has much in common with the practices of
dream yoga, which we will explore in later chapters

---

TiredPhil:

I finally checked out that video you posted, at least for a few unprepared minutes. It reminds me of the Ultra Meditation sessions I listened to back in the '90's -- without the pretty pictures, though. If you haven't tried those guys yet (sounds like you have, though), you might give them a listen too.

Feeling intrigued, and a little nostalgic, I think I'll give this a real try this week, with proper mental prep in place. I'll let you know how it went.

Thanks for sharing!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TiredPhil

Now I have tried dozens of different so called sound based meditations.
So many out there on the internet that a person could easily get lost in the confusion.
Then I searched Google for "Reaching delta sleep"
By chance, the first video I came across worked first time.
It only took me a min' or so, and I was in another state of mind. Eyes were closed
All external input ceased, and I was sat there in an inner mind state.
I could just detect my breath. Hands felt like they were swolen to a great extent.
The state lasted only ten mins' but the experience was new, and exciting.
Please have a listen with headphones, and give your opinion.
This is the only time I have ever been influenced by sound.
I am off to have another go, just to validate that it was the sound that caused the experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vas8OdHZKcw

---

I did the meditation with eyes closed. The graphics made my eyes sore.

Interesting!

I was looking at the graphics, but all the while was distracted by thoughts of how to make the pictures bigger, more enveloping (without having to press my face against the screen). It seemed like a bit too much, especially when your mind creates similar pictures on its own. I'll have to try it with eyes closed as well.

Wow!!
I am highly interested in this!
And I think, I know, what you mean with the pause too - I had a first "really-WILD-like" DEILD with dream gone and being awake - and then there was something like this, before I began seeing a vista of my LD like through a camera-seeker - and went there with a sort of "woosch".
There was this - honestly almost blissfully empty - black moment.
And basically in the long run - I am most interested in working with my mind in LDs - so it almost sounds more attractive to me than REM LDs, when I read this.
Fantastic thread - thank you so much for sharing this with us!
Can't be found on every corner, definitively - I have read something about it only once, not much - and don't even know, where - not on here.
How is it going with your delta-exploration at the moment?
I know, I didn't even have a regular WILD without connection to a dream just before - but I will probably try this anyway - can worst casely only fail.


Edit: It is a bit not so practical, that this is in beyond dreaming, I actually find - many more people might be interested!
Do you have it linked up prominently in your main WILD tutorial(s) maybe somewhere?
This is great stuff here!!
I also listened to the clip of yours TiredPhil - I like it, brings me in a meditative mood - will try!

^^ Thanks Steph!

My delta dives have been few and far between these days, as the focus they require has become quite elusive. But I do plan on setting aside some time next month to give this wonderful condition a little more attention... I'll post if anything interesting happens!

I love this thread. Finally I feel like I know what I have experienced so many times over the years. I have been trying to explain to gab what AT is like for me and this thread has helped to put names and explanations to things that I could not find the words for. I know what you mean by peace or bliss in the black nothingness! Its the most comforting, beautiful thing I have ever experienced. Sometimes I just want to stay in that state(I get HI) but its the feeling of being one with yourself and everything else. Its after this point that I AT if that was my intention. Mostly I find this "Delta" part the most rewarding.
Thank you a million times for this thread as I have been trying to figure out how to explain or describe this state of meditation, or self hypnosis, or AP or what ever. I know this is right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StephL

can worst casely only fail.

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No, worst case you'll induce a shared dream by accident.

Just kidding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flowofmysoul

Sageous, i wrote this topic - http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ll-asleep.html

I am having two different ways of how i get lucid, in first one i know where is Delta Sleep, in second there is no delta sleep and no delay of dream, i get my dream before i fall asleep completely. What do you think is happening in second scenario?

---

noticed that kadie liked this post, just want to update it. Long time passed and I now understand how and why it seemed to me so before.

1- The moment where I notice Delta sleep is nREM WILD, I think that there is no REM WILD, but it is another topic. So it is nREM WILD followed by next stages of sleep, until the Delta sleep where I experience emptiness, complete void, followed by a blank space of recall, the next thing I remember is appeared in REM DILD dream.

2- Scenario where I said there is no delay of dream. Same thing, nREM WILD, followed by next sleep cycles including Delta sleep, followed by REM DILD.

The different is that in first case I recall nREM WILD and because of that I stay aware to notice Delta Sleep. When my REM starts, I appear in DILD. In second case I simply do not recall nREM WILD, what makes it impossible to notice Delta Sleep, the first time where I become lucid is in my REM sleep which is DILD. So having no delay between falling asleep and having lucid dream was just an illusion, every time that happens we just do not recall our nREM WILD, also if we do not recall nREM WILD - we do not remember Delta because you can say it is part of nREM WILD, the ending part.

That is not a bad thing, they are very different in their nature, nREM WILD and REM DILD. Depends what are you planning to do and what are you goals are, you can choose whether you want to have nREM WILD or not.

Thanks flowofmysoul.
This happens to me when I meditate. I don't know how to WILD and I can stay in this state for a long time. Anywhere from a few minutes to about a half hour. Sometimes I AT to a designated place, but over the last 10 years I learned that I prefer this "Delta" stage. I use a lot of color inagry during meditation, so I usually get sucked into a vortex of color that is a lot like the colors of the Omega nebula. But the feeling and enlightened awe is very much like what is being described in this thread.
Normally I meditate before bed, however I wake up anywhere from 2 to 6 times a night. Most of the time I actually get up and putz around the house or smoke a cigarette etc. Maybe I have some kind of sleep disorder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kadie

Thanks flowofmysoul.
This happens to me when I meditate. I don't know how to WILD and I can stay in this state for a long time. Anywhere from a few minutes to about a half hour. Sometimes I AT to a designated place, but over the last 10 years I learned that I prefer this "Delta" stage. I use a lot of color inagry during meditation, so I usually get sucked into a vortex of color that is a lot like the colors of the Omega nebula. But the feeling and enlightened awe is very much like what is being described in this thread.
Normally I meditate before bed, however I wake up anywhere from 2 to 6 times a night. Most of the time I actually get up and putz around the house or smoke a cigarette etc. Maybe I have some kind of sleep disorder.

---

I wake up every night many times, but just for a second, to think of what I just dreamt of and repeat it in my head to improve chances of recalling it in the morning. I can't even call those wake up's, just short periods of being almost waken up. As soon as I close my eyes my dream continues, but those are during REM DILD's.
I think that is normal for every Lucid Dreamer to wake up, at the moment I think it is important to wake up because you can improve your recall. I don't have DJ's, I usually post on web only the most interesting dreams and I do not write anything at night, I am keeping them in my head.

As for the Delta Sleep, as for my experience and knowledge, there are no dreams in Delta Sleep. There are nREM dreams before the Delta stage and they are nREM WILD's, but as soon as I come to Delta stage I experience nothing, just emptiness, no audio, no visuals, no senses. It lasts for a very short time, then I come to a point where I can't recall anything, the next thing I see after the Delta stage is a REM DILD Lucid Dream. According to my feelings and also EEG graphs that I found on internet, there is a delay between Delta and REM DILD, this exact delay I never recalled in my life, it is always a blank spot for me, but I recall the Delta which is always emptiness for me.

Hey! Great topic, still reading it. And I have a question. Can you speak during delta? Or are there any manifestations of language during delta?

^^ Hmm. Now there is something I honestly never thought about, but it is an interesting question.

If you are asking if during Delta LD's you can use verbal communication, either spoken or thought, then I think the answer is yes, you can.

Since you can (and likely will) think in words and sentences to some degree, especially at the beginning of the dream, when you are still slightly attached, through your still active memory, to your physical self and its basic means of communication. Delta dreams certainly have room for your conscious verbal input, and Delta dreams have a strong intellectual aspect (thoughts seem to form more easily than images), so you ought to be able to speak "out loud" during a Delta or NREM LD. So yes, there can be manifestations of language, just as there can be manifestations of pretty much anything else. And yet:

In retrospect, personally I never gave speech much attention or even thought during my dives into Delta. I guess it was because in my case I had no interest in talking to anyone -- not even myself. I was much more interested in the opportunity Delta offers to move past mundane means of communication or observation like speech. Now that I think about it, I probably did talk to myself early on, saying things like "this is totally not a normal dream," or "This is cool," and I do have a memory of hearing myself say these things out loud (aka, manifesting language)... but that was it. After some time exploring the potential of schemata-free dreaming, I began to lean much more on a sort of metaphoric exchange with my environment, and speaking just didn't fit into the formula.

tl;dr: From my perspective, the answers to your questions are yes, and yes.


Can I ask why you asked this fairly unique question? It wasn't a trick question, was it? ;)

It was an intuitive question I think.

I'm interested in science and philosophy and there are always models of different things and processes in my head. They are emerging, changing and dying. Living their own lives without my conscious involvement :)
One of my greatest interests is philosophy of language which began to me from Wittgenstein. Since I knew him I often think about relation of language and inner experience or language and world. Which is pretty much the same for me now.
There is an analogy in my mind between delta/REM and unconscious childhood/conscious life. In both cases there is a line beyond which lies "dark ages": you don't remember your early childhood and you don't remember how this dream started (if DILD). And i thought that if you don't talk much when you are a child (of age 2 or so) then maybe you will unable or at least hard to speak in delta dream.
But it appears that analogy doesn't fully work. Maybe it's time to think different way. :)

I sometimes fall asleep and have these dreams right away that feel like a conscious stream of thought, and like I'm not really sleeping, but I am. And sometimes there will be visuals (I am prone to hypnagogic images, so maybe an extension of this?). For instance, I'll see the images of a video game I'm playing, and have a conscious stream of though planning what I'm doing in the video game the whole time. But it's not like I'm in a dream world. I still feel very much in my body, just viewing these images from behind my eyelids similar to my hypnagogic images. I always felt like this was just dreaming in Stage 1 sleep.

Is this delta sleep, or another stage of sleep? It feels different from my REM sleep dreams.

^^ It does sound like Delta dreaming to me, Lumiina!

Delta dreaming does seem to be more about your own conscious thoughts and imagery than the input of unconscious thoughts and imagery (aka, normal dreaming). I would also imagine that HI can appear in any stage of sleep, so those visuals could have been HI, especially if you are prone to it.

Also, I think you were right in thinking that it "always felt like this was just dreaming in Stage 1 sleep," because that is probably just what it was. I think if I had these sorts of dreams, I would start doing WILDs at bedtime to take lucid advantage of this dreaming opportunity you've been given... your mind has cracked open the door to Delta; might a well use your lucidity to push it open some more and do some exploring, right?

Hmm... Maybe it's time I look into doing WILDs. I have had some, but all were accidental and brief. I'm used to jerking myself out of them because the auditory hallucinations scare me.

I could use my HIs as a doorway too. They are usually very gruesome and frightening because of my OCD. But if I can learn to conquer those, my sleep issues would be solved. I did the same for my false awakenings, and I no longer dread dreaming. I love it. I haven't felt afraid in a dream in such a long time. It's just those HIs I have a problem with. My grandmother had the same issue with HIs and learned how to change them into pleasant things (which I haven't learned yet). But I heard they can be gateways into lucid dreams too, which would be even better. Because that's basically what I did with my false awakenings.

I think I'm going to look into the WILD course. It could be really beneficial for me. I just wish the course had workbooks! I really enjoyed the Intro course workbooks.

I am also practicing full language immersion at the moment with Japanese, and want to pull it in with my dreaming. So maybe I can blog about my experience in Japanese in place of the workbooks, then come back to the forums on my English days to get new exercises, post my experience with WILDs, get feedback and so on. My long term goal has been to find the connection between the subconscious and language through lucid dreaming. So I really want to get serious about this.

Hi guys, that's a very interesting topic indeed. Quite long living as well :)

As Sageous mentioned in the beginning of the thread, I am also trying to enter the dreamland directly from the start. I am trying that for more than 20y already. Is kinda strange experience. I am not sure if is Delta or not but for quite some time my night are developing as follows. First i relax my body and find the most comfy position on my bed, usually lying on my back. Then close my eyes and start some breathing and imagining technique, like breathing energy through crown chakra, driving it to tan tien and then distributing it to the rest of the body. Also stopping the conscious process of thought. This kinda changes the state of mind quite abruptly. It feels like a audible click and sometimes as electric shock. During that period body is vibrating with power and after a short while body is no more only the power. Then i have no feeling of my surroundings as well. There are some weird voices in languages which most of times i don't understand but sometimes i do. Can be quite scary sometimes but i learned not to pay much attention, just listen patiently. Similar story and with visions. Then comes something like a void. Kinda dark but calm place and some thoughts are present and deep. A bit like on a small MJ dose. One can go really deep on certain thoughts. Or just be there and recharge. All this usually lasts between 40 min and an hour. Then i usually prefer to come back, open my eyes and roll on the right and then continue with 'normal' sleep :)
I have one question about experiences which are bothering me for a while and which were usually happening after i wake up from a dream. But now they started to happen even after that period i described earlier. Is weird for me coz i know that that state of mind is different than my usual sleep mode. Anyhow. So when i open my eyes after that period i see things in the dark. Some floating entities. Usually reminding of a mesh of threads but constantly moving and morphing. But sometimes some strange shapes. Anyone had any of those?

Interesting stuff, Kenietz; thanks for sharing!

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Originally Posted by kenietz

I have one question about experiences which are bothering me for a while and which were usually happening after i wake up from a dream. But now they started to happen even after that period i described earlier. Is weird for me coz i know that that state of mind is different than my usual sleep mode. Anyhow. So when i open my eyes after that period i see things in the dark. Some floating entities. Usually reminding of a mesh of threads but constantly moving and morphing. But sometimes some strange shapes. Anyone had any of those?

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Aside from dust motes in my eyes upon waking that can look like things floating in the room, and to which you are probably not referring, this has never happened to me. My wife, however, often awakens to imagery like this (and even more complex stuff sometimes); imagery that she insists is real for at least a few minutes. She does not practice any sort of Delta sleep exploration, though she does enjoy a lot of dream activity immediately upon falling asleep (probably thanks to a bit of narcolepsy) .

In any case, though, I have a feeling that this stuff has nothing to do with your Delta explorations, if that is what you were implying. It probably has more to do with your conscious mind entering the waking world a few seconds before the rest of you, and some residual imagery might be lingering in your perception even after you've begun to perceive reality -- a little psychic feedback, as it were, and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by kenietz

I have one question about experiences which are bothering me for a while and which were usually happening after i wake up from a dream. But now they started to happen even after that period i described earlier. Is weird for me coz i know that that state of mind is different than my usual sleep mode. Anyhow. So when i open my eyes after that period i see things in the dark. Some floating entities. Usually reminding of a mesh of threads but constantly moving and morphing. But sometimes some strange shapes. Anyone had any of those?

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It happens if you slowly and naturally wake up at night, it is dark in your room, no loud sounds, you did not wake up completely. What you see are dream fragments mixing up with your waking world. You are waking up and you can see your room, you are still partially sleeping and some dream imagery goes through, I know its a weird feeling. Actually the same mechanism is behind sleep paralysis, but in this case there is no paralysis. Next time when you start seeing those figures, remember those are dream fragments, you can try to control them if you want, the same way you control dreams.

So i can observe them for couple of mins or so but i am not sure they are dream residues. They seem not to be connected to my visions during sleep or presleep state of mind as described in my previous post. On the other hand i tried to interact with them and i found there is not much i can do to them. Usually my arms pass through them. However only once i felt an impulse to put one of them onto my third eye and that produced a weird flash and vision in my mind which unfortunately i cant remember.

^^ You lost me, Kenietz. Were the phenomena you described a result of your Delta sleep practice, or did they happen at other times as well? I was under the impression they occurred later on/after regular REM dreams, mostly because we don't tend to physically wake up during Delta, but maybe I misunderstood.

In any case, I obviously cannot know for sure, but I don't think your Delta work would be responsible for the imagery you describe, so you probably don't need to worry about that aspect, at least.

I am sorry for the confusion.
Usually it was happening after i wake up from my regular dreams, like 3-4 times per night. But as of lately it started to happen and after the initial Delta ( or meditation ) state.

Btw, Sageous, I would like to ask you about the initial stage of going to sleep and hunt for Delta. How could you describe the feeling of it? For me is quite fast, feels like a sudden dive within and knowing the state of mind is different already. Difficult to explain :)

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Originally Posted by kenietz

Btw, Sageous, I would like to ask you about the initial stage of going to sleep and hunt for Delta. How could you describe the feeling of it? For me is quite fast, feels like a sudden dive within and knowing the state of mind is different already. Difficult to explain :)

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I hope you don't mind, but in the interest of saving myself some time, I have simply cut and pasted below a couple of early posts from this thread (#'s 5 & 8) that seem to answer your question. I hope they are adequate.

Beyond that, I have personally found that there is no actual "hunt" for Delta. It will come, without fail, whether or not you are aware of its arrival. The hunt itself lies in maintaining self-awareness during the early states of sleep when your body has no interest in having you do so. I figure you were just using the word "hunt" as a general term, but I felt a need to respond for some reason.

And yes, the transition to Delta for me is very fast (or seems so, at least), to a point where I am in it before I realize that my body has even fallen asleep.



On the general feeling (the pause):

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Originally Posted by Sageous

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Originally Posted by gab: ...So how can I tell I'm in delta?

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Good question! I'm guessing the answer to that is different for each person who consciously experiences the state. Was that a dodge? How about this, then:

If you are familiar with WILD, you will know that there is a "pause," a brief moment of absolute stillness, in between the last vestiges of waking life and the first of dreaming life. If you're doing WILD correctly (including making your attempt in the morning after several hours of sleep), that pause is extremely short, though you likely have experienced it. You may have ignored it, failed to notice it, or noticed it and just didn't care, simply waiting for it to pass in anticipation of things to come; but you likely experienced it.

At night, when you first go to sleep, that pause can be very long, and, if you are able to pay enough attention to it (which I highly recommend, of course), you'll find it is less empty than it seems at first glance: thoughts still stream, but far more slowly and palely than you're used to, and if you listen carefully, you might hear sounds or voices that always stay just out of range (or not; that last bit could just be me). Or you might experience something else altogether; but when your self-awareness enters delta intact, you will recognize the pause for what it is.

I believe that if you are able maintain self-awareness through the entire initial delta period, you will know that you are there, and there will be no confusion with HI or other pre-REM phenomena. Also keep in mind that it is possible to dream that you are in delta, but once you experience the real thing, you will be able to tell the difference.

That may sound vague, but as I said, I'm guessing that the answer to your question is truly different for each person who consciously experiences the state... the pause, however, should be the marker shared by all.

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Some specific experiences:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

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Originally Posted by DragonMaster21: What are some of your past experiences in delta sleep?

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Let me give you three examples in the distinct categories into which they seem to fall (you or others here may find yourself familiar with some of this stuff, I think):

First, there is a state I've often been in, during that long wait for REM, where I am alone in darkness, bodiless, yet with fading but still distant awareness of my physical form. Almost invariably in that state I will hear voices having quiet conversations -- voices I hear quite clearly, but I can never make out the words. At first this drove me nuts, but in time it offered me sort of an odd comfort (it may be the only noise I welcome during normal WILD dives).

Next, another thing that regularly happens is a subtle shift to the thoughts that normally (even in dreams) flutter chaotically about my head like a thick swarm of tireless, annoying butterflies. In delta, thoughts are reduced to just a few, and seem to slow down and stretch out, becoming strangely tangible, as if entities unto themselves. It's difficult to describe, but I guess the best way to try is to say that perhaps these thoughts are the little brothers to the thoughts that become "reality" in dreams. Now the ironic bit: Clear and slow-moving as these thoughts may be, I can to this day remember absolutely no specifics about any of them -- as if they never happened... yet I can still feel their pressure and presence; as if their energy were more significant than their content.

Then there are the rarer bits: On several occasions I held onto my self-awareness long enough to successfully do something during the pause. At first I tried the things I wanted to do in my dreams, like construct the places or situations I wanted to visit, but I quickly found that wasn’t happening -- each attempt left me with either more “nothing” or a loss of self-awareness and surrender to normal sleep and dream (though DILD usually followed, eventually). So, taking the hint from those quiet voices and tangible yet unheard thoughts, I decided to be subtle. Initially, I summoned geometric shapes in primary colors with some success, and even managed to visit a few strange places, though those places were always very dim, very gray, and oddly immersed in the wind of my body’s distant breath (I never did figure that one out!). More occurred, some of it certainly fun and novel, but suffice it to say that image-making in this state is a limited process indeed, perhaps due to the disconnect with the physical mechanisms that create dreams during REM. Oh, and pretty much all of my perceived OBE experiences started from this state -- I never thought much of that, but it might be worth mentioning here..

Beyond these clear (ha, ha) examples are the precious few transcendental moments when I could command my self-awareness with enough gusto to try the big stuff -- like taking a metaphoric dive into the ocean of my unconscious to see how deep I could go, what or with whom I might be swimming with, and whether I could pour that ocean into a spiritual cup and take it home with me. Those were amazing dives, but I have trouble describing them both because my memory of where I went is fraught with things I cannot describe even to myself, much less others, and because I cannot honestly say whether these things truly happened during delta, or were perhaps given to me later in REM -- It’s all too vague, but suffice it to say that some very excellent stuff was initiated by my interest and conscious presence in delta.

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After reading through this thread, it seems I've consciously experienced this Delta dreaming many times. I was under the impression that it was some kind of alternate or distorted form of dreaming, or some kind of pre-dreaming state, in which my thoughts took on a totally unique type of activity that is rather hard to describe but matches the descriptions given here almost perfectly. Thanks for the information guys!

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Originally Posted by kenietz

As Sageous mentioned in the beginning of the thread, I am also trying to enter the dreamland directly from the start. I am trying that for more than 20y already. Is kinda strange experience. I am not sure if is Delta or not but for quite some time my night are developing as follows. First i relax my body and find the most comfy position on my bed, usually lying on my back. Then close my eyes and start some breathing and imagining technique, like breathing energy through crown chakra, driving it to tan tien and then distributing it to the rest of the body. Also stopping the conscious process of thought. This kinda changes the state of mind quite abruptly. It feels like a audible click and sometimes as electric shock. During that period body is vibrating with power and after a short while body is no more only the power. Then i have no feeling of my surroundings as well. There are some weird voices in languages which most of times i don't understand but sometimes i do. Can be quite scary sometimes but i learned not to pay much attention, just listen patiently. Similar story and with visions. Then comes something like a void. Kinda dark but calm place and some thoughts are present and deep. A bit like on a small MJ dose. One can go really deep on certain thoughts. Or just be there and recharge. All this usually lasts between 40 min and an hour. Then i usually prefer to come back, open my eyes and roll on the right and then continue with 'normal' sleep :)
I have one question about experiences which are bothering me for a while and which were usually happening after i wake up from a dream. But now they started to happen even after that period i described earlier. Is weird for me coz i know that that state of mind is different than my usual sleep mode. Anyhow. So when i open my eyes after that period i see things in the dark. Some floating entities. Usually reminding of a mesh of threads but constantly moving and morphing. But sometimes some strange shapes. Anyone had any of those?

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Void... There are kinds of void. Something I have written in my dream journal here- when I experience void during a dream, then I don't think it is actual delta dream. I also experienced void during OBE and that can be connected with delta waves, I think- because I experienced the Void also during my meditations, quite many times and it had similar taste to my consciousness. Like: no normal thoughts but blank mind where the singular feeling flash in and it is answered by other feeling instantly, the experience of being one with everything... no feelings from physical body, no astral or dream body, no timeflow experience(it feels like being in the eternity)... I experience mainly black void, but I had also experienced once grey void and twice also the white void. Other than color no difference is felt between them.
Seeing things while in darkness is probably equivalent to seeing things while having closed eyes. I think, they are created by accidental firing of neurons in eye because of lack of signal. With concentration this effect diminishes. If you aren't concentrating on the images, but inside of your mind, then you will slowly lose thoughts, lose feelings from body and fall into meditation- void without features. Otherwise, you can use those "entities" as base to create images for starting the LD.

Interestingly, I was listening to binaural beats last night while trying to fall asleep. I think the one I was listening to was delta. Anyway within like 2 minutes of closing my eyes I started seeing dark swirling colors that kept getting darker until everything quieted down and faded to black.
I know exactly what you mean by being in the void psionik. Its like asking and knowing at the same time. I think its the most profound feeling I ever . very beautiful and enlightening.

^^ And there it is.

And there what is? Are you calling me an it?

^^ Oops! Sometimes something so clear and simple in my head just fails to survive the trip to print.

What I meant was this: "And there, in Kadie's example, is what I was talking about in my OP and on this thread; that brief example clearly illustrated both the experience of lucidly exploring Delta Sleep and the value of doing so."

... I guess I should have used my words; sorry!

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Oops! Sometimes something so clear and simple in my head just fails to survive the trip to print.

What I meant was this: "And there, in Kadie's example, is what I was talking about in my OP and on this thread; that brief example clearly illustrated both the experience of lucidly exploring Delta Sleep and the value of doing so."

... I guess I should have used my words; sorry!

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Don't be so hard on yourself, it was crystal clear to me! I think kadie was just having a blonde moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Oops! Sometimes something so clear and simple in my head just fails to survive the trip to print.

What I meant was this: "And there, in Kadie's example, is what I was talking about in my OP and on this thread; that brief example clearly illustrated both the experience of lucidly exploring Delta Sleep and the value of doing so."

... I guess I should have used my words; sorry!

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No worries there Sageous. I thought that was what you meant, was just looking for a little clarification.
However as for Vincefields derogatory, ignorant and assumptive comment. I must ask WTFDYTYA? :takethatfoo: lol. jk

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Originally Posted by kadie

No worries there Sageous. I thought that was what you meant, was just looking for a little clarification.
However as for Vincefields derogatory, ignorant and assumptive comment. I must ask WTFDYTYA? :takethatfoo: lol. jk

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Hahaha I didn't assume you were blonde, just thought it would be less offensive than calling it a "girl moment." :tongue:

Lol. Your batting 1000 there Vince.

I had a bit of a strange experience last night. Not sure whether it was actual delta or some type of dream (I've certainly had dreams about exploring delta before). However, this one occurred at a time when I definitely don't normally have REM dreams. My recollection of it isn't that great, so I can't say a whole lot.

I initially went to sleep for the night and woke up about 90 minutes later to record notes about my first dream, which is pretty usual for me. I went back to sleep and eventually found myself awake around 2h:20m or 2h:30m into sleep, which was unusual (normally the next REM/wake-up is quite a bit later, usually around 3h in). I was a bit startled to discover that I had been lying awake there zoned out and daydreaming about things for who knows how long (at least several minutes) before actually realizing I was awake. Then I suddenly had a vague recollection that something had apparently happened at some point after going back to sleep at the 1h:30m point and before waking up here.

It felt somewhat similar to the brief conscious periods of light NREM that I occasionally experience immediately before or after a normal dream. Maybe it was a bit different (there seemed to be something about it I wanted to remember but couldn't). But I have the impression that it went on for an unusually long period of time, though how long I don't know. I seem to remember recognizing the state and believing that I was in some sort of conscious NREM again, perhaps wondering if I might be in delta sleep now since I had been in it so long. I believe I attempted to observe my thoughts or state of mind and compare them to the reports I had read in this thread. I seemed not to notice anything obviously unusual about them but decided that my mind was possibly exhibiting a tendency to remain particularly still or “blank”.

My memory is very fuzzy, and I don't remember how the event began or ended. It also appears that I remember my thoughts during the experience more clearly than the experience itself.

^^ Sounds like Delta to me, Travis; thanks for sharing!

One thing in particular that seems to stick out to me right now was the apparent timelessness of the episode. I initially attributed it as being merely an artifact of not recalling it well, but I'm starting to wonder now. Maybe next time it happens I'll recall it a bit better and have a clearer idea.

I have been noticing more of my sleep time that I think involves a NREM stages and possibly Delta on 3 main separate occasions - during the night, during Wild Dive after wbtb and during nap in the daytime.
With each time there is a similar pattern of a open, spacious stillness that comes quite instantaneously at a point after thoughts and tiredness has gone on for a bit then subsided...if I manage to get here without falling asleep I feel refreshed and recharged...
I have been enjoying this 'healing' for some years on and off but I am now wanting to use it very consciously in-order to strengthen my ability to Go in to a LD - in particular Wild but ultimately any way of LDing is fine:)

Today, this afternoon I put on some white noise and earplugs in darkness for 45 mins and went to this place - I used White noise as a way of helping me keep an eye on a point where I may not hear it and to see how I could relax with it as you mention in another thread to see if there is a point where you don't hear it anymore but staying full of self awareness.... Is this a good strengthening exercise do you think? Any advise:alien:

The only thing is I have read something Ophilea Blue wrote where she said while she slipped out of her body during a wild she could still hear her fan clearly and another time she could hear the tv the whole time too - so that makes me think it's not sure that the sound will go as one goes into different stages of NREM and into Delta and into rem ...

Can you give some more advise on exercises to strengthen self awareness as one moves through relaxation and possibly the stillness of NREM in prep and in making sure one is going in the direction of LD?
Thank you :D

Travis:

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Originally Posted by Travis E.

One thing in particular that seems to stick out to me right now was the apparent timelessness of the episode. I initially attributed it as being merely an artifact of not recalling it well, but I'm starting to wonder now. Maybe next time it happens I'll recall it a bit better and have a clearer idea.

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A feeling of timelessness or the presence of eternity (if that's even a thing) are definitely things I've come across when in Delta... such a feeling, perhaps by its nature, can be very difficult to recall, though, because your mind needs to attach it to something "timely" to it in order to form a memory, and that timeliness sort of defeats the essential moment of the experience... such is the nature of transcendental events, I guess.

If you do manage to remember this, or any other Delta experiences, your report of it would be most welcome!

Patience:

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Originally Posted by Patience108

I have been noticing more of my sleep time that I think involves a NREM stages and possibly Delta on 3 main separate occasions - during the night, during Wild Dive after wbtb and during nap in the daytime.
With each time there is a similar pattern of a open, spacious stillness that comes quite instantaneously at a point after thoughts and tiredness has gone on for a bit then subsided...if I manage to get here without falling asleep I feel refreshed and recharged...
I have been enjoying this 'healing' for some years on and off but I am now wanting to use it very consciously in-order to strengthen my ability to Go in to a LD - in particular Wild but ultimately any way of LDing is fine.

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What a nice feeling, huh? I have to ask: do you really want to cloud or eclipse that special time with a push to LD? Something to think about, I think. But:

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Today, this afternoon I put on some white noise and earplugs in darkness for 45 mins and went to this place - I used White noise as a way of helping me keep an eye on a point where I may not hear it and to see how I could relax with it as you mention in another thread to see if there is a point where you don't hear it anymore but staying full of self awareness.... Is this a good strengthening exercise do you think? Any advise?

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Probably. Since the sudden absence of sound can be a very encouraging thing during a WILD, because it means your body has fallen asleep, listening for the absence of white noise could be a good practice. I see it as more of a tool than a strengthening exercise, though, because you really don't need to develop any special skills to prepare yourself to hear that lack of noise. One caveat, though: it can be very easy, because of expectation, to dream that the noise has ended, so be sure to do a RC when you note its absence. Also:

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The only thing is I have read something Ophelia Blue wrote where she said while she slipped out of her body during a wild she could still hear her fan clearly and another time she could hear the tv the whole time too - so that makes me think it's not sure that the sound will go as one goes into different stages of NREM and into Delta and into rem ...

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That post of mine that you reference was, I believe, in response to an individual's question and experience, and your (and Ophelia's) results can vary ;). That said, keep in mind that there is a substantial difference between sensory activity during early sleep stage Delta/REM than during LD's when they generally occur. Many LD's tend to happen when a dreamer is very close to a waking state, so it stands to reason (and, BTW, my personal experience) that they'll hear that fan during, say, a late-cycle LD. Also, yes, should you be able to maintain self-awareness throughout the night, you will indeed notice your white noise (and your breathing, and your body movements, and your sheets, etc, etc) coming and going as you slip from period to period, Still, I'm pretty sure that when you first fall asleep early in the cycle, you will note that the white noise can no longer be heard.

So: use the "disappearing noise" trick as a tool to confirm that your body has fallen asleep, but trust that confirmation only early in your sleep cycle. Later on, do an RC, and don't be surprised if you can still hear it as background noise throughout a late-cycle LD.

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Can you give some more advise on exercises to strengthen self awareness as one moves through relaxation and possibly the stillness of NREM in prep and in making sure one is going in the direction of LD?

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Sadly, I don't have time right now to address this one properly (I'll try to come back later with more), but suffice it to say that I would suggest instead that you keep your Delta exploration separate from your LD process, so you can get the most out of both. That said, If you are lucid during Delta, your self-awareness is probably in fairly excellent shape, and you are heading in the direction of a LD anyway... you've already done the mental heavy lifting.

All that is needed is to carry that lucidity into a LD, which you could accelerate by working on forming your dream, perhaps by focusing on a small detail of the dream you expect to have, and enlarge that detail after it appears until it encompasses an entire dream scene (and your dreaming mind is engaged). For instance, let's say you want to spend some time lounging on a tropical beach: pick an easy shape that would be on that beach, like a palm tree or towel, and visualize that object. When you have formed the object, fill in details around it -- sand, sun, other bathers, water, etc) until the scene is complete, and your dreaming mind hopefully gets the hint and takes over. Again, I don't have time right now, so I'll have to leave it there...

Thanks again Sageous:) as I am not LDing all the time just yet and my Self Awareness is still a bit from excellence ;) my experience of Delta is most probably in its baby stages too - thanks for giving it thought tho I appreciate your advice:alien:

I have found that patience can take anyone to the doorway of Delta sleep. ( Well me anyway )
On an evening, around 5pm, I often have an hours nap.
Later, when it is time to sleep, I do not feel as tired, and can take my time concentrating/preparing, without falling asleep too quickly.
Dark room - No disturbances - Comfortable position on my side, or back - Light covers
It is simply a matter of closing my eyes, and looking at the afterimages of light.
Lots of random lights for the first few minuits, then the centre of my vision begins to fade to darkness.
Probably the cells in my retina have become accustomed to the dark, and have stopped firing.
However, the outer cells are sill active. This gives me a black spot surrounded by dim light.
As more cells relax the centre dark spot seems to grow.
Then it is just a matter of keeping my attention on the dark.
Some times I can go through, and others I just fall asleep.

This method needs no visualisations, or skills, just lots of patience.
Hope this helps anyone trying to enter Delta without using lucid dreaming techniques

I have been away for a while, so this approach may have already been posted.

Cheers,
Phil

Went to bed at around 9 pm after reading about Reverse Blinking. I would like to try give it a shot although I am not sure if I understand how to do it correctly but can see some folk get great results.

So laying there after taking some time to relax and I start to blink ( I think this means open my eyes and close them again quickly but in one place I read you have to open your eyes long enough to focus on something ...) my eyes open every 5 seconds or so... it was hard to count for 5 secs at same time but I am hoping it gets more natural next time ;) I went on for quite a while like this and my eyes ,more than anything , started to get very very dry almost painfully dry.

So I decided to stop and relax - HI was strong and I tried to look past it instead of straight on - it goes on for a bit and calms down - I slip into a restful/sleep.

I am suddenly awake/lucid within in a calm space, I think ,recognise as Nrem/Delta? I sense a strong profound presence and feel I have been communicating for some time in my sleep unconsciously...Now i am fully here tho ;

' Who are you?' I ask

' How do you know I am here, most people don't notice me.' The voice says

' I can feel your presence.' I answer

' I am the Universe, I am everything.' The voice tells me

' ................................' I am in silence for a while with the presence - trying to make sense of what was just said to me - I have a wonderful wholeness feeling about me.

I feel my waking life coming back to my physical body in bed. I look at the clock its 10 pm -it feels like I have been sleeping a long time....

I try the RB for a while again and feel myself drift into a relaxed state once again - the presence is there again but not strong enough for conversation...I sleep .
I Wake up this morning and cant help wondering about the presence :) ? Also because I Have been aware of a pressence of someone i have ben speaking to in my dreams for a long time - its often as i am waking up or going to sleep - but i never got to ask who it was befor :)
Has anyone used RB - got any tips?

^^ No tips from me, Patience, except maybe that you would probably do fine without attempting that reversing-blinking technique, which in my mind has always seemed a bit silly.

It seems you had a very interesting experience regardless; I hope you'll tell us more about that "presence" in the future -- though I do hope you take care to abandon all expectation, and let that presence form on its own. It could just be an echo of you, perhaps a little unconscious noise as bits of you struggle to make sense of being aware in Delta; which in itself is extremely interesting... or it could of course be something else altogether, but be sure to let experience and not expectation do the defining (I'm not sure the actual universe speaks English)...

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^ No tips from me, Patience, except maybe that you would probably do fine without attempting that reversing-blinking technique, which in my mind has always seemed a bit silly.

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So what's all the fuss to do with RB about - nothing :)?

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]It could just be an echo of you, perhaps a little unconscious noise as bits of you struggle to make sense of being aware in Delta; which in itself is extremely interesting... or it could of course be something else altogether, but be sure to let experience and not expectation do the defining (I'm not sure the actual universe speaks English)..

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Sageous. :D thanks - will do:alien:

You mean you havn't met the ' Universe ' he he he :wink:

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Originally Posted by Patience108

So what's all the fuss to do with RB about - nothing :)?

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I would say so. Sometimes things just become popular because they sound cool -- and the popularity grows because people just don't like reporting that the cool stuff doesn't work (beyond initial placebo effect, of course) or, worse, they report that it does work from some need to belong. Or I could just be a cynical old bastard, I suppose!

:sageous:

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You mean you havn't met the ' Universe ' he he he :wink:

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Not that I know of, and certainly not one that speaks to me personally, in English. ;)

... There is a lot of depth to explore in Delta, Patience, of that I have no doubt; just be careful not to obscure that as yet undiscovered depth with imagery formed from existing expectation...just sayin'...

Thanks for sayin :) - So how, would you advise, does one best explore that depth in delta and also the depth in LD ... What are the first steps for some one like me, always asking questions about reality etc, in exploring that 'undiscovered depth ' ��

^^ I would say the first step is to simply be open.

Expect nothing. Ask the questions, but try not to insert answers; just let the experience happen, and sort out what may or may not have been going on later, after you are awake and have recorded everything in your DJ.

Hopefully this doesn't contradict things I said earlier on this thread (I'm too lazy to look), but I think the best thing to do during early exploration of Delta is simply get there. Learn to hold your presence in Delta, get used to existing in a place that seems to defy (or rather negate) existence, and let the void of Delta become an accessible goal. Then, once you are comfortable with yourself being in such a different neighborhood of your Self, go ahead and ask those questions... however, when you ask, consider avoiding specific, expectation-haunted questions like "Who are you?" (more in a sec), but instead open yourself to answers to questions that were never asked; those answers might just be more interesting!

The trouble with asking questions about reality during potentially transcendental journeys like some (not all!) made in Delta is that those questions often come with built-in answers based on expectations. If you think in terms of reality or esoteric stuff like "undiscovered depths" during your time in a place that might lack both, you could find yourself attaching abstract explanations to define the reality of what you are experiencing [edit: Did I say "Undiscovered depths? I did, didn't I? Well, I'm sure I meant to intellectually consider those depths during waking life, and not during the dream.] Those abstracts could then convert to handy metaphors with which you are familiar, but also which you just summoned from memory, and not the void. Delta is at its foundations nothing, a sort of blank slate on which to attach new things: new experiences, new imaginary journeys, new feelings, perhaps even new communications or spiritual encounters, all of which might defy anything you already know or expect. Let that stuff in, openly, for a while before you ask any questions or expect any answers.

As a quick aside to your earlier post, keep in mind also that the presence you feel communicating with you might, simply, be you. I know that is a bit mundane, but look at it this way: if that presence is some profound external entity, you will communicate eventually, no questions asked; if that presence is "merely" a profound aspect of your own mind, you may learn some interesting things about yourself...either way seems a win/win situation to me, but neither will occur if you allow yourself to abstractly define the questions and answers from your own conscious expectations.

tl;dr: During your early dives into Delta, don't ask anything, or expect any answers; just be open to whatever you find, and leave the esoterica for waking life. Later, when you've got your void-legs firmly under you, ask away but do so without expecting any particular answer.

So if your experience at the start of sleep is not void like but more OBE/astral projection like with full visuals and a dream body, is this in the brief theta stage preceding delta?

^^ It shouldn't be.

Full visuals and a dream body seem extremely unlikely during normal stage 1 sleep. That is the established rule, anyway: your experience could be an exception to the rule... and with dreams exceptions seem more common than rules, so that could be the case.

There is one, more established exception to this rule that you might consider: People who have some form of narcolepsy tend to begin dreaming immediately upon falling asleep. This is the only case I can think of right now where the first stages of sleep (including Delta, or stage 3) are skipped and REM begins immediately. I am also pretty sure that narcolepsy comes in more than one form, so you could have it without experiencing the more familiar symptom of falling asleep suddenly during waking-life.

Regardless, it could just be that your sleep cycle begins unusually with a bit of REM; this sounds like a good excuse for you to break another rule and attempt WILD's at bedtime!

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ It shouldn't be.

Full visuals and a dream body seem extremely unlikely during normal stage 1 sleep. That is the established rule, anyway: your experience could be an exception to the rule... and with dreams exceptions seem more common than rules, so that could be the case.

There is one, more established exception to this rule that you might consider: People who have some form of narcolepsy tend to begin dreaming immediately upon falling asleep. This is the only case I can think of right now where the first stages of sleep (including Delta, or stage 3) are skipped and REM begins immediately. I am also pretty sure that narcolepsy comes in more than one form, so you could have it without experiencing the more familiar symptom of falling asleep suddenly during waking-life.

Regardless, it could just be that your sleep cycle begins unusually with a bit of REM; this sounds like a good excuse for you to break another rule and attempt WILD's at bedtime!

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I only had the experience once with my first LD, before I had read more extensively on the topic. I started relaxation and then had the buzzing, vibrating sensations. I rode these out without having any predetermined destination or goals in mind, just opened up to the experience. I ended up in a place with physical qualities, although pretty boring, and populated with people. I was able to look down at my body as I walked. I even noticed one of my shoelaces was undone and tied them up (I had no idea what to do with myself). The whole experience only lasted a few minutes if that. When I began reading more into it I just assumed I did what OBE/AP enthusiasts do all the time. They often take their journeys at the start of the night so I've always been uncertain of what phase of sleep this occurs in.

^^ That now sounds very much like a WILD to me, with the buzzing and vibrations you felt simply the noise experienced on the way to the dream. After the noise, you seemed to have been in a LD, rather than AP/OBE (which, BTW, might also "just" be LD's as well).

Landing in a LD seems like a fine place to be though, and, if you got there after first going to sleep at night it is very unusual indeed!

I battled through a brief bout of mild food poisoning yesterday and my sleep experience reminded me of delta dreaming. This has happened to me under similar circumstances in the past as well. It seemed like I never entered deep sleep, but a part of my consciousness remained aware and engaged in mental activity that I can probably best compare to psychosis. It was the same theme throughout the entire night, but I couldn't possibly begin to explain it because it made absolutely no sense, but it was a more or less continuous experience throughout the night.

^^ It sounds to me like the difficulties (understatement, I'm sure) of the poisoning might have kept you out of deep Delta and early stage sleep in general... you might have skipped "slow wave" sleep entirely, left with a night of NREM that more resembled dreamless REM than Delta:

Maybe you were experiencing something like a primal defense mechanism, meant to keep you just a little aware so you could tend to your body's needs throughout the night (needs like, say getting up to vomit instead of doing it while lying on your back while asleep). I wonder if your enhanced consciousness skills helped you to notice this mechanism, while most people would just register a fitful night's sleep?

So you may have missed/skipped early stage Delta, but got to experience lots of NREM throughout the night, perhaps with your head in a very different place, thanks to your ability to pay attention. Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing!

To add to discussion, i've had my share of weird experiences lately. What they all have in common is that i drank coffee and then tried to sleep after staying up for so long studying.

I've often awakened after NREM dreams while still keeping memory of them. Other times i would be almost lucid during an NREM dream.

And through all of these and every time, i go through a period of hallucinations which i suspect to be REM atonia or SP..
I would be trying to normally sleep and rest my mind, only for my body to fall asleep while my mind is wide awake. I get an audio hallucination of that brainwave sound in my head going extremely loud. There was one time i tried opening my eyes and i saw something creepy, though i'm not sure if it was a dream or not back then.

And according to my memories from NREM dreams i know so far, NREM dreams are stranger than normal dreams. It's hard to describe it, but they feel kinda weird. Through most of them i get a false-awakening.. And only once, i had a dream on the streets near my house, the streets were very weird though. Also the most notable thing is that all of the NREM dreams i experienced were night-time and dark. The lighting would be way down. I expect the quality of it overall to be sloppy.

There were times i got lucid by accidentally WILDing my way into an NREM lucid dream, which is probably what all of these are. The dream though, was EXTREMELY short, around 6 seconds long after i got into it. I guess this is why they don't recommend WILDing right away at night.

Quite strange, and i bet i'll be going through more of these. Unfortunately, i'm not very happy about them since they're messing up my sleep after studying.

I had not heard much about delta dreams before seeing this thread, but I definitely relate to that sensation of the void. I have had a few dreams there that I can recollect, although I suspect that most of the time they do not make it back into my memory and I am left only with the sensation of having been in a state of strange and wonderful wholeness.

One such dream that I do remember still stands out to me distinctly. I am in the void, it is black. But in my mind I have the concept 'garden'. I stir to consciousness, I begin to 'vibrate'. Subconsciously, I become aware of a presence, and before I even know what I have done, I spit out an image. I clothe the presence in a form automatically. It is a woman. I then do the same to to another presence, this time a male. He knows what I have just done and smiles at me.

There are no words. Everything is just shared, known. The man shows me that they do not create thoughts, but make for them shapes. They show me what I look like, a spinning golden triangle.

I know that the actual images, such as the triangle, were symbols drawn from my own experiences. I suppose we clothe our experiences in the closest approximation of what our waking mind can understand. I try not to read too much into this dream now, and just enjoy it for what it is.

I had a rather bizarre and fascinating dream which makes me wonder if it could have been some sort of delta/NREM dream. I was totally nonlucid in this case. There was no real visual imagery that I recall. There was a continuous, deafening roaring noise that I can't really describe. It was somehow intense yet indistinct, diffuse, and undecipherable. I suppose it was something like what one might get by playing millions of naturally-occurring sounds of all types all at once at high volume. My mind was in some state of strong chaos, confusion, and fear. I seemed to be nonverbally imagining an enormous lightning storm with a devastatingly loud strike hitting right next to me, or even directly striking me. Perhaps I wondered if that had just literally happened. I had no idea what was going on. It seemed that all I could do was lie there, hold still and endure the emotional feelings, and wait for them to run their course or for something to happen. It felt like this went on either continually for some time, or many times in succession. It's not clear which, nor for exactly how long (or how many times). There just didn't seem to be much of a clear notion of time here.

I may take the time to read this whole thread, sorry for skipping it guys! Let me know if there is anything I say that's already been discussed. Anyway, I saw the thread and figured it'd be a neat discussion to get into.

To start off, I want to address a few things you've stated in your opening post, Sageous. I want to address, most specifically, the idea that delta sleep is "empty" and quiet. There isn't much evidence that much dreaming takes place during this stage of sleep, but given the fact that the structures that are responsible for episodic memory and cognition are typically shut off during this stage, meaning any dream that is occurring may as well not be occurring at all (much like a night where you drank wayyyyy too much). Granted, one of the major structures for cognition being shut off suggests that you be unable to experience anything at all during a typical session of sleep, but children are known to have night terrors during this portion of sleep (apparently stage 3 and 4, so as deep as it gets). Children have vastly different brain functioning, but it is interesting to note regardless. The reason I argue that dreams may still occur at times during these two latest NREM stages is based on more reading I've done about brain activity during sleep. As just a small tidbit of background information, I need to shed some light on how consciousness is constructed. It is a result of self-regulating thalamocortical circuits... feedback loops that filter relevant somatosensory information and prune irrelevant signals by feedback induced inhibition of neuronal excitation. This loop of thalamocortical circuits basically traces the spreading of electrical signals through the brain as it takes in sensory information, associates things and gives them meaning based on past experiences, comes together as a final "big picture", which is then analyzed by higher brain function, i.e. "you".

Time for a new paragraph, phew. The term thalamocortical comes from the sharing of information up from the thalamus and thalamic circuits through the cortical circuits. Thalamic circuits are shut off during deep sleep... they are the circuits that send sensory information to the rest of the brain. Similar things can be said of other known brain structures involved in the actual taking in of sensory information. However, cortical projections always keep running through their circuit, even with a total absence of information from the brainstem and thalamus. This happens no matter the cause of the loss of sensory input, it's how the Ganzfeld experiment and hypnagogic hallucinations work. The difference in these cases is that brain structures paramount to cognition and memory are functioning at the time. This easily explains why NREM sleep is capable of dreams, even though they are typically fragmented and difficult to derive any meaning out of. Now, enough neuronal firing in pertinent areas of the brain may be inhibited that the imagery and sensations generated by the still-projecting cortical loops may be so fragmented and localized that the projections by those circuits aren't able to communicate properly as well, I haven't read enough yet to know. Certainly if acetylcholine is well-inhibited enough in the 3 structures I mentioned at the beginning of the post that are responsible for episodic memory and, to a degree, cognition, it wouldn't count for anything anyway. Sleep-induced amnesia would see to it that all the information is lost on you. However, any interruptions during sleep or other significant function-alterating circumstances like drugs (pharmaceutical and otherwise), diseases, disorders, injuries, lucidity, etc., might allow for a dream to both be remembered and to have occurred in the first place.

I know, it's kind of a silly thing for me to have written all this information about, but I figured someone might be interested. After all, the thread is named Exploring Delta Sleep. Maybe I misinterpreted exploring's meaning in this case, but... well, fuck it who cares, lol.

^^ Thanks for sharing all that info, Snoop, though it does sort of rip all the mysticism out of the picture, doesn't it? ;)

I can't remember at this point, but I think that if you read on in the thread (past all that emptiness stuff in the OP) you will see that it has been discussed that dreaming in some form does occur during Delta, though it is extremely different, and much less imagery driven (if at all) than REM dreams.

The peaceful emptiness I spoke often about might reflect more on the nature of the experience itself than on there being no dream production at all. Indeed, many of my times in that peaceful emptiness had me existing in a gray mist, which is surely a sign of dream production... not to mention that, in order to sense your self at all in a dream, dream-body or not, there must be some dreaming going on. This also indicates that, dream production or not, no matter how perfectly empty you might find a void, it is still not actually empty because you are present in it.

It could also be that the presence of self-awareness and memory (aka lucidity) in Delta leaves room for expectation-based dream incubation, and the void we experience is actually a dream about a void, and not actual nothingness (I don't entirely agree with that, but it is a thought I just had).

So: Yes, dream production does happen in Delta, but it is very different from "regular" REM dreams -- at least to me.

Regarding the inability to remember existent Delta-stage dreams: That is likely correct -- except that lucidity includes access to memory; so, when experienced by a self-aware (lucid) dreamer, the dreams, and whatever else, can be remembered.

I'm not sure if this addresses what you were trying to share, but I do have a feeling that if you view more of the thread you might see more clearly what we're discussing here, and that it generally tends to be in agreement with what you posted. Or, if you already are clear, I hope you don't mind that I tended to shy away (or totally ignore) the physiological details, mostly because, for me, examining what is physically happening can put a bit of a damper on the experience itself -- especially if you start remembering physiological details during your Delta dive.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Good question! I'm guessing the answer to that is different for each person who consciously experiences the state. Was that a dodge? How about this, then:

If you are familiar with WILD, you will know that there is a "pause," a brief moment of absolute stillness, in between the last vestiges of waking life and the first of dreaming life. If you're doing WILD correctly (including making your attempt in the morning after several hours of sleep), that pause is extremely short, though you likely have experienced it. You may have ignored it, failed to notice it, or noticed it and just didn't care, simply waiting for it to pass in anticipation of things to come; but you likely experienced it.

At night, when you first go to sleep, that pause can be very long, and, if you are able to pay enough attention to it (which I highly recommend, of course), you'll find it is less empty than it seems at first glance: thoughts still stream, but far more slowly and palely than you're used to, and if you listen carefully, you might hear sounds or voices that always stay just out of range (or not; that last bit could just be me). Or you might experience something else altogether; but when your self-awareness enters delta intact, you will recognize the pause for what it is.

I believe that if you are able maintain self-awareness through the entire initial delta period, you will know that you are there, and there will be no confusion with HI or other pre-REM phenomena. Also keep in mind that it is possible to dream that you are in delta, but once you experience the real thing, you will be able to tell the difference.

That may sound vague, but as I said, I'm guessing that the answer to your question is truly different for each person who consciously experiences the state... the pause, however, should be the marker shared by all.

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This an old post I know so excuse me for Necro posting but I think I have experienced this before. You mention about hearing voices? Well while heading to sleep sometimes, I hear voices, I hear my name being called, knocks etc, would this be the case of me being delta sleep? At times, these don't seem to be outside noises but feel more mental. After experiencing this is usually jolts me awake.

^^ No worries on the necro, Habba; it's always nice to see the conversation continue....

What you are hearing could certainly indicate that you're witnessing a bit of Delta, but I'm not sure. It also may have been the hypnagogic imagery (HI) that would occur before Delta, while you are still on your way to falling asleep. I say this because of one small clue in your description: the experience jolted you awake.

Delta is a fairly deep sleep period of NREM, and your body will not be very interested in being jolted awake. On the other hand, HI occurs while you are still riding the fence between wake and sleep, and it can be very easy find yourself awake after encountering it. So it might have "just" been a bit of HI.

I could be wrong, of course, but the only way to be sure is to go there again, and try to remain calm enough that you don't wake yourself up... Maybe next time you'll get past those voices, and find yourself truly in that pause I mention above!

Thanks for that sageous!

I've experienced this pause a few times I think, it's kind of hard for me to explain. It felt i was just laying there for a very long time and it was just completely blackness. It felt like I was asleep but apart of me was still awake. Is there a certain way you stay aware in this? Or is it like watching yourself go to sleep but keeping your awareness?

^^ I can't think of any specific way I retain self-awareness during Delta; it's more a case of establishing it before you get there, I think, and once established, the self-awareness, for me, tends to stay with me... I have a funny feeling that if you tried specific techniques -- like repeating a mantra -- you might wind up diminishing the experience, because you've added something to it.

I want to make something clear, though: Delta sleep is a sleep stage you naturally enter after you have fully fallen asleep. All the things you do to become lucid in a dream (like WILD techniques) have already been done, so once in Delta you are already self-aware, and the only tool you need to stay aware is your attention to your presence in this place (attention is not a technique, BTW, but a state of mind). I suppose this is sort of like the WILD activity of watching your body fall asleep, only there is no body anymore, and sleep during Delta is more of an abstract than a thing to be witnessed. Also, attention is really the only tool, because other traditional tools for prolonging (i.e., spinning) are based on perception, and perception does not significantly exist in Delta

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I have a funny feeling that if you tried specific techniques -- like repeating a mantra -- you might wind up diminishing the experience, because you've added something to it.

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I agree with you on this! Let's say you're naturally a good footballer, yes and instead of using a football you use a tennis ball. You are adding something that doesn't need to be added, correct?

I would love to hear more of your experiences with this, it's fascinating!

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Originally Posted by Habba

... You are adding something that doesn't need to be added, correct?

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Correct!

In real terms, by using a proscribed LD'ing technique, you are adding something that can't be there (i.e., you can't prolong by spinning because there is no dream body to spin, or perceived dream scene to spin within).

Can this occur in the morning? After awakening and trying to go back to sleep? Over the past couple of nights, I will wake up in the morning and when I try to sleep it feels like an laying in completely nothing for like 10-30 minutes, then I go into a dream

^^ NREM can (and does) occur throughout the sleep cycle, though it is a bit different later in the sleep cycle than in first stage sleep, when things are moving truly slowly. NREM seems much easier to navigate when it occurs after several hours' sleep (or before your dream starts up during WILD, for instance); I imagine that this is because there is more brain activity at that point than there is in the beginning of the night.

So, in other words: Yes.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ NREM can (and does) occur throughout the sleep cycle, though it is a bit different later in the sleep cycle than in first stage sleep, when things are moving truly slowly. NREM seems much easier to navigate when it occurs after several hours' sleep (or before your dream starts up during WILD, for instance); I imagine that this is because there is more brain activity at that point than there is in the beginning of the night.

So, in other words: Yes.

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Well, it's good to say i have a little spark of awareness when I enter this!

I believe I had another lucid delta episode today. It lasted for what felt like perhaps several minutes, though of course I have no way of knowing how long it actually was. For all I know, it could have been anywhere from a couple of minutes to over an hour. Time doesn't seem to be something I tend to concern myself with much in this state.

The beginning is fuzzy, so I don't remember exactly how my consciousness or lucidity got triggered. It seems I may have had some thoughts leading into it, but I don't remember what they were. I seem to recall seeing what looked like HI trying to form, but it never seemed to resolve into anything distinct. I seemed to be a little puzzled by this at first.

A bit later, when I had a better idea of what was going on, I noticed that it was relatively quiet and stimulus-free. Not quite 100%—there were some occasional slight sensations of fast movement or floating, perhaps, with maybe a sort of “windy” effect at times, sort of like what I often get during light NREM (just before waking up or entering REM), but maybe a bit more muted or “soft”, for lack of a better description. Possibly there was some very weak visual “noise” or patterns, but nothing distinct or well-defined. I chose to just passively observe and didn't spend much time thinking about anything. I guess this would usually be described as “being present”. Doing this seems to be quite easy, even natural, in this stage of sleep.

One thought I do seem to remember at one point was something along the lines of wondering if it could get kind of scary to feel like I was “stuck” in this state for an extended period and wondering if I would be able to wake myself out of it if I wanted. I don't think I actually felt that way; I seemed to just be exploring the idea.

Eventually, there was a quick, noticeable transition, and I could tell I had returned to lighter NREM. The most obvious difference, I think, was that I could feel my physical body again; just before, body sensations as a whole seemed to be largely absent. Seconds after the transition, I was fully awake. This was the first awakening of my sleep period (almost exactly 90 minutes since getting in bed). I'm not sure if I even had any REM in that cycle. I would have expected it to occur after delta, but it seems I may have just woken straight up instead, unless it somehow snuck in there without my noticing it (it felt like the transition was perfectly contiguous in consciousness to me, but who knows).

Like before, my thoughts seemed to all be nonverbal. It's sort of as if it simply never occurred to me to think in words, which is interesting since in a waking state it's the opposite, where I always tend to think in words by default without thinking about it.

It seems like my memory of this episode was rather clear this time; I wrote this all from memory after getting up and then checked with my immediately-after-waking notes. I hadn't forgotten to mention anything.

^^ Interesting experience, Travis; Thanks for sharing! Me being me, I did of course manage to find a couple of things to comment on:

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Originally Posted by Travis E.

One thought I do seem to remember at one point was something along the lines of wondering if it could get kind of scary to feel like I was “stuck” in this state for an extended period and wondering if I would be able to wake myself out of it if I wanted. I don't think I actually felt that way; I seemed to just be exploring the idea.

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This really isn't something to worry about, because you will always wake up, whether you want to or not. But if your concern or fear about something like this threatens to overwhelm, the easy solution is to just let your self-awareness slip away, allowing you to return to normal sleep (waking yourself fully up from NREM can be difficult, but it isn't impossible; it's best to save that as a last option).

That said, the feeling you had isn't necessarily a bad one, if you can manage to massage it into a sense of permanence, of being safely enveloped in an eternal place or condition... this is hard to describe, but if you get there it is a very amazing place to be. Once there, you might not want it to end!

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This was the first awakening of my sleep period (almost exactly 90 minutes since getting in bed). I'm not sure if I even had any REM in that cycle. I would have expected it to occur after delta, but it seems I may have just woken straight up instead, unless it somehow snuck in there without my noticing it (it felt like the transition was perfectly contiguous in consciousness to me, but who knows).

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Though you can certainly go 90 minutes or more without a REM period, and wake up before one, there is a chance also that some non-lucid REM dreaming did indeed sneak in, and you didn't remember. After all, you consciousness was a bit occupied with absorbing where it had just been, right? Those regular dreams might have just slipped from your memory.

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It seems like my memory of this episode was rather clear this time; I wrote this all from memory after getting up and then checked with my immediately-after-waking notes. I hadn't forgotten to mention anything.

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This makes sense to me; after all, significant waking-life consciousness level events like these tend to be very easy to remember... hard to forget, even!

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Why? Because, if you’ve got your self-awareness and memory working well, the quiet emptiness of delta, with its thorough lack of active unconscious input, can afford you a unique opportunity to do things such as relax in perfect nothingness, deeply explore your Self, tap your still-dormant dreaming mind in a manner unfettered by existing dreams, explore transcendental states, and, perhaps, connect your awareness to the supernatural-plane type things we all get excited about here, like dream-sharing and AP, all without the distraction and misinformation of your brain’s REM dream engine.

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Speaking here about Delta Sageous you mention some of the reasons why we might appreciate the state and stuff we can possibly explore from it :) ...Could you share some of your own experiences of exploring in this way with say - AP, Dream Sharing, connecting to super natural planes and about your experience of bliss/emptiness you mention in another post?

Thanks in advanced Sageous - for sharing -

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Originally Posted by Sageous

This really isn't something to worry about, because you will always wake up, whether you want to or not. But if your concern or fear about something like this threatens to overwhelm, the easy solution is to just let your self-awareness slip away, allowing you to return to normal sleep (waking yourself fully up from NREM can be difficult, but it isn't impossible; it's best to save that as a last option).

That said, the feeling you had isn't necessarily a bad one, if you can manage to massage it into a sense of permanence, of being safely enveloped in an eternal place or condition... this is hard to describe, but if you get there it is a very amazing place to be. Once there, you might not want it to end!

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Yeah, it was an interesting thought, given that these days I'm reasonably comfortable with consciousness during non-dream sleep, though it did take me a few years to get that way. Those are some good points to keep in mind if it becomes a problem. I seem to have a feeling it won't, though, just as I enjoy LDs and the more familiar non-delta NREM enough that it's been quite a long time since I've actually attempted to leave on purpose. ;)

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This makes sense to me; after all, significant waking-life consciousness level events like these tend to be very easy to remember... hard to forget, even!

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Even more so than most of my regular LDs it seems, as I usually forget at least one or two very small details from my notes, but not here!

Funny, too, how when I first woke up my initial impression was that it was actually a fairly uneventful experience and that I had little to say… until I actually started putting it into words and remembering more of it. ;)

It was certainly a fun ride, and I'm looking forward to the next one. Maybe I'll remember to get a closer look at some of the interesting aspects of it that I only happened to catch a quick glance at this time.

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Originally Posted by Patience108

Speaking here about Delta Sageous you mention some of the reasons why we might appreciate the state and stuff we can possibly explore from it :) ...Could you share some of your own experiences of exploring in this way with say - AP, Dream Sharing, connecting to super natural planes and about your experience of bliss/emptiness you mention in another post?

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I'm not sure when or why I said things about using Delta for AP, Dream-Sharing, or connecting to supernatural planes (I would normally include supernatural planes in the AP category, BTW, and also can't believe I used those words), but I've no time to read through the thread, so I'll assume that I did. I'm guessing I was trying to "sell" the concept of exploring Delta to the AP'ers and dream-sharers out there. I've never been a fan of AP (it seems more an engine for self-delusion than exploration; and conversely, isn't every dream sort of an AP/OBE? Both of those are thoughts for other threads, I think) or dream-sharing (I don't like talking to people in waking-life, so why would I want to do it in dreams?), but if I were to pursue them, I think I would do so during regular REM-period LD's, when I could use my dreaming mind's resources to help with making and defining the scenes and connections relevant to AP/supernatural planes and dream-sharing. Sorry if I misdirected you there; I was probably just a bit too excited or earnest at the time...

I can't say much more about the emptiness than I already have; I hope you don't mind if I take a pass, having no more new ways to describe peaceful nothingness.

Bliss? Did I actually use that word? Gosh I hope not! Bliss to me is an illusion, or rather a sort of emotional veil that acts as a barrier to the really advanced stuff, so I've always had a bit of a problem with pursuing it (again, that sounds like the stuff of another thread -- or website).

That said, what you left off your request was the opportunity in Delta to seek transcendental experiences...and I have actually pursued them during Delta. Of course, the difficult thing about transcendental experiences is that they are, almost by definition, very difficult to describe -- even to myself. I did start a thread a long time ago that discussed it; I finally listed a couple of dreams on post #40, if you're interested (most of the thread is about why it's so hard to describe them, of course). I believe the dreams listed happened in REM or late-stage NREM, but the advanced one at the end is not very different from my attempts from Delta... it also illustrates why delta is a nice place to begin a transcendental leap: I'm already in a void, or gray mist, so no need to eliminate the dream to get things started.

So: I guess I'm 4 for 4 in not giving you examples...but I also think I may have managed to at least hint at my own experiences, or at least I hope so! But let me add just one more dodge, just to be annoying: I think I've said elsewhere on this thread that the Delta experience is an extremely personal one -- in my mind it may be the most personal thing you can do -- so my experiences probably will not relate to what you might discover in Delta. In fact, reading other people's specific experiences might just harm your own time in Delta, because you might build a set of expectations about what is supposed to happen, and those expectations might muddle your moment (this is one reason I don't post a DJ, BTW).

Thanks that's clear - to tell you the truth I wanted to clear it up also because when I re - read it (it's right at the beginning of your Delta thread *1)recently I coulnldt paste those bits it together with the Sageous or Delta :)I have got to know over the last year

- thanks again, I will continue with the Delta exploration and development of self awareness

As time passes, I seem to notice more of what apparently are NREM dreams (whether delta or some other sleep stage, I'm not sure) that have an overall scary/cataclysmic emotional feeling, kind of like one I described earlier in the thread. It's rather interesting since my normal REM dreams are usually fairly benign by comparison, and it makes me wonder that maybe these are actually fairly common experiences for me during this stage of sleep and I simply don't happen to notice or remember them most of the time despite their intensity. They generally have little to no visual imagery (though there are often ear-piercing thunder/glass-breaking/complete-chaos-type sounds) and are primarily thought- and emotion-driven (and often my notion of time is nebulous like with the other delta-like episodes I've experienced). They seem to occur usually during the first sleep cycle or two.

I had a rather unusual example of these a few days ago, where the feeling and sounds came in waves much like (or coinciding with) the “vibration/numbness” waves I commonly see during conscious NREM, and this time I actually seemed to be running some sort of story in my mind to explain the feelings (though I didn't remember much of it when I woke up). I suspect I may have also had a tiny bit of semilucidity during that one; I seemed to (just barely) be aware that there was no actual danger and appeared to play around with it a little bit.

With a bit more lucidity, this could be interesting to explore.

Hi!

This is all very interesting. I will read all comments. Now I was reading just here and there, but I begin to understand something. I was always asking, where is this delta? I made a bunch of going to bed WILD-s, but I was never sure, when I am "sinking" through the delta. When I am going to bed and rarely I do a successful WILD, I am mostly meditating for long times. The way, how I got into the lucid dream, was many times different, but there are some experiences that I always have. One of them is after some good relaxation and awareness I feel some "electric" feelings (whoosh). Mostly in my arms. Another one is, that I reach a state, that I call trance. My body dissapears. Not thinking is easy like to breathe. No more strugle, or "using powers" to catch your thoughts and stay aware. It is a peacefull floating. Almost always I see white dots, similar to stars, in 3D swirling around me. I think now, that I found this missing delta dream.

Great post Sageous! Your posts and the comments under it are enough for a smaller book. Im really thinking to copy paste some of the best posts from the older members, with the comments, in the MS Word, and print it out. Reading it before bedtime, without sitting before my laptop to radiate my eyes. (RIP my ebook...I will ask Santa for a new one in a LD :))

Edit: Smaller book - I mean, after extraction of the essence. In raw, there is information thicker then the War and Peace.

Sageous, have you ever been able to pull off remaining conscious throughout an entire 8-hour sleep cycle like this? This thread is extremely interesting by the way.

^^ I've managed to maintain self-awareness throughout the night just a few times, and did so many years ago. I really don't try anymore, though, because it requires way too much time and effort on my part, and my Delta goals have sort of been refined away from needing a whole night to achieve (or at least approach) them.

Still, I would highly recommend making the effort to succeed at it at least once. The work involved to do so includes the sort of mental prep and focus that will only help improve your LD'ing (in particularly WILD) skills.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Interesting stuff, Kenietz; thanks for sharing!



Aside from dust motes in my eyes upon waking that can look like things floating in the room, and to which you are probably not referring, this has never happened to me. My wife, however, often awakens to imagery like this (and even more complex stuff sometimes); imagery that she insists is real for at least a few minutes. She does not practice any sort of Delta sleep exploration, though she does enjoy a lot of dream activity immediately upon falling asleep (probably thanks to a bit of narcolepsy) .

In any case, though, I have a feeling that this stuff has nothing to do with your Delta explorations, if that is what you were implying. It probably has more to do with your conscious mind entering the waking world a few seconds before the rest of you, and some residual imagery might be lingering in your perception even after you've begun to perceive reality -- a little psychic feedback, as it were, and nothing more.

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I realise this is an old thread but I get those too, like I also read about your wife I fall asleep and dream quickly too. If I've had an intense or profound dream the 'dust' is more organised forming patterns or tubes, that interlock. I think of it as dream dust, though I sometimes see it in meditation too.... I've looked it up over the years but not many people seem to know what I'm talking about.

I've been in this place a few times too, the first time I think it must have been at the start of a 'dream' I'll just c&p the first of my experiences here.

Condensing clouds dream - from18 Jun 2016

It was almost like I was meditating in the dream... I don't remember anything - no body or thoughts

All of a suddenly thoughts retuned - The thoughts became physical and they started to condense into huge grey fluffy clouds the moment they hit the dream scape, it was really epic looking!

I became more aware of myself I was watching the thoughts causing these huge storm clouds, I also became aware I was floating way out in a grey sea.

I wasn't alone, but others were all a distance from me. I noticed the thoughts were also making waves..... the more extreme/unbalanced the thought the more I bobbed up and down on the sea and the bigger the waves I made.

I herd a word that I thought was perhaps Samsara,

but all morning walking the dog the word Samskara has been in my head.... I wasn't even sure if it was a word till I just googled it.


That was the 'dream' I woke straight up from it too.
My 2nd experience was when I accidentally blew myself our of a dream into it.

Greetings to you all! :)

Delta and meditation

I was doing pranayama (form of meditation practice I decided to try), counting excercise and entering delta state here is not simply complete physical relaxation, but I was not aware of body at all.

So, it went like this: years back, for some 5-7 days every evening for almost an hour I was "doing my excercise" and that evening was the same, except for what happened. I was counting during breathing as usual, and suddenly I found myself in this strange void state. Nothing there. Continuing with counting my breath was no longer an option, since there was no breath at all, nothing moves, no sound... OMG - my body? Where is it? No sensation at all. Am I alive? I must be, since I am thinking this thoughts and asking this question and looking around me and seeing this ... I called it "starless space". ...

So, this was during meditation. My first stuningly conscious excursion into this "area"...

^ Interesting. I remember that during one of my suspected lucid delta sleep episodes I got the impression that I had more or less an absence of body sensations. However, my sensory memory for the two such episodes I've had so far is fuzzy, so it's hard to remember clearly. What I did remember very clearly were the thoughts I had, but interestingly, I couldn't really remember the order of the thoughts nor how long I spent on each one. In other words, it seems my perception of time was also very “fuzzy” or even nonexistent—it was striking to realize afterwards that I had no clue at all how long the episode had lasted, whether it was just a couple of minutes or much longer, nor did I apparently even care at the time. That in particular was quite an interesting and unusual thing to experience.

I have no problems with thinking process there. Maybe because I think in two basic ways (not counting the 'not-thinking' ;-) ) in the waking state, one is "normal" and the other I can't explain, like "background thinking", more intuitive (if it's the right way to describe it), like entering into subject and not thinking about it from external, but entering it and like simply realizing it. This other type seems to have no problem thinking in delta if I think (verbalize in my mind) there.

Once I simply popped-out from my LD, from scene, outside of it into similar darkness (I've read later that some people call it void), but having no interest in staying or exploring that futher I spinned myself like a gyro back into same dream-scene.
On another occasion when I DILD-ed (which is what I mostly do anyway when I do LD), I decided to simply sit and meditate. And at the same moment of my entering meditation, all scenery of my dream environment started dissolving. It looked like some rain of light-spots is falling and dissolving everything into itself, a bright light. I looked into that brightness with a bit sense of astonishment (I was supprised by this turn of events) for a moment (subjectively for several seconds), and then I woke up.

I am also aware of the moments or phase, similar to what you Travis describe, when thoughts get for a moment fuzzy and actually mostly I can recall them but I rarely do that since they do not seem all that important in the first place. Usually I simply retrieve my focus and "breathe it" into and from and through that fuzzyness... It gets better :-)

Not to jump over my head here, I would like to ask Sageous (or anyone who would like to give some feedback) and would appreciate some input if it is similar for him:

Would you say that these what you call "delta-LD'S" (during consciouss falling asleep) seem more like mental, as if you can see the scenes but then again not really, as if there is dream-object there, you know it's there, you know its colours, shape, environment... but than again, all that is not actually vividly visible as real LD (or even ordinary dream)? Like some kind of attenuated image, sometimes even as you looked at it through some thick gray curtain.

And there is another thing, as Sageous mentioned - "their energy is more significant than their content". Only when I don't delve into them and let them be, leave them in a way, there is energy. Otherwise, I just feel draind by either focusing on them, entering into them or play with this kind of dreaming (LD), if it at all is a part of delta-ld. Result for me is quite the same as if I have indulged (or fallen into) a very hard case of internal-verbalization episode (). It even seems to me that real delta-LD is going beyond these half-thought - half-vagely-visual(ized) imagery.

Thanks for any futher input. :)

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Originally Posted by Reverb

Not to jump over my head here, I would like to ask Sageous (or anyone who would like to give some feedback) and would appreciate some input if it is similar for him:

Would you say that these what you call "delta-LD'S" (during conscious falling asleep) seem more like mental, as if you can see the scenes but then again not really, as if there is dream-object there, you know it's there, you know its colours, shape, environment... but than again, all that is not actually vividly visible as real LD (or even ordinary dream)? Like some kind of attenuated image, sometimes even as you looked at it through some thick gray curtain.

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Actually, no, I wouldn't say that. What you describe here sounds much more like dreamlets, which can occur during a WILD dive as you straddle the fence between wake and sleep. Dreamlets are basically bits of dream imagery that don't quite comprise the imagery you would get in an actual dream, and they are also perceived poorly by you because your mind, being that is still associating with waking-life perception as well, hasn't quite shifted into a mode meant to perceive dreams.

What you described in your earlier, "delta meditation," post seems much closer to how I might describe the Delta experience, BTW.

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And there is another thing, as Sageous mentioned - "their energy is more significant than their content". Only when I don't delve into them and let them be, leave them in a way, there is energy. Otherwise, I just feel draind by either focusing on them, entering into them or play with this kind of dreaming (LD), if it at all is a part of delta-ld. Result for me is quite the same as if I have indulged (or fallen into) a very hard case of internal-verbalization episode (). It even seems to me that real delta-LD is going beyond these half-thought - half-vagely-visual(ized) imagery.

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I don't remember mentioning that bit about "their energy is more significant than their content," or in what context I was making the statement, but I probably was speaking metaphorically, and not talking about existent energy activity itself . Because dream content is essentially missing in delta, and because possibly the only "thing" present in Delta is your own consciousness/self-awareness, I suppose that the energy to which I was referring was that presence, and not a specific energy form. I know that wasn't what you were talking about, but I just wanted to be clear. [however, if I was talking about actual energy, maybe thought energy, let me know the post number so I can see what I really meant; I do have a tendency to contradict myself! ;)] That said:

Yes, I could see how attempting to focus on dreamlets or HI during Delta could be draining, because you would in essence be be trying to organize perceptually chaotic information, information that by its nature refuses to be organized, probably due to the fact that your dreaming engines are currently at idle. It would be better for you, I think, to just let this stuff wander past. That said:

I know in the past I have suggested that you can form dreams from such imagery, but if trying to do so truly exhausts you, it might not be worth the effort... just enjoy the peace of Delta's emptiness, and leave the imagery for your "normal" dream periods.

Thank you very much Sageous!

You have answered more questions than I've actually asked, though, I was wandering what dreamlets (you all speak about) are. Its clear now (I hope ;-) ). Ever since I've became intensively aware of them, I did call those thingies 'delta-dreams' (in my thoughts) because for one, I did not now how other people have named them and secondly, they did for me appeared when my body is asleep and mind awake and almost especially and intensively during certain kind of excercises I attempted some five years ago.
I saw them as I've tried to describe them in my previous post, mostly in the phase where my breath has already became, "sleeping breath" (breathing-patterns change when we (body) are sleeping of course). One and the same one appeared even before my teens and I saw it (always the same one) for years ahead (that's probably why I was so curiouss about them later.)

I do not think of them as actual "delta-LD" (or clear delta lucidity), but a kind of obstacle to it since in some strange way, in my experience, they do open the doors and lead straight to internal-monologue (IM). During my awareness of this phase, I even had the impression that they actualy provide main subject for IM and the moment that self-awareness drops a little, automaticaly IM on that subject appears as train of thought, argument, memorized tid-bits...

As for "energy" part in delta-lucidity ( first page on this thread post No8 ), yes I have noticed that you like to speak metaphorically. :)
And from my experience (and theoretically also) I do agree with you wholly on this one. Totaly. I wasn't sure what these things I have been seeing are so I really wished for some more cleareness regarding imagery I described.

I would also like to add that in or through what you call dreamlets there is also energy, this time more like actual energy-sensations (not tinglings nor something like that felt in the body while relaxing), sensations of pleasant-vibes or flows or balls (for lack of better words) I sense or feel when I become aware of a dreamlet and simply go (as if through it, or simply remain marginaly aware of it with a kind of peripheral attention) and hold more deeply and focus into self-awareness at that moment. At least, these are my experiences here.

Yes, I do let it pass when they occur. It's really rather rare now anyway, but was rather intensive during the period some five-six years ago while I was experimenting with one specific metod or technique. It produced more downs than ups and some really strange (internal) stuff and experiences came out and consequentlly I almost had to "build-myself" and my-self-awareness from the scratch again.

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I could see how attempting to focus on dreamlets or HI during Delta could be draining, because you would in essence be be trying to organize perceptually chaotic information, information that by its nature refuses to be organized, probably due to the fact that your dreaming engines are currently at idle. It would be better for you, I think, to just let this stuff wander past.

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That might be also good advice for all others who try to enter delta-lucidity state and are either curiouss or investigative (at some point I believe most of us are) as I was about 'the nature of stuff' we experience in that, let's say 'pioneering area' of our own being, awareness and life.

I have to admit, I've never tried to form dreams from this kind of imagery, neither from HI (flows, colours, light-spots, wavings or swirls...), I simply tend to notice them, and sometimes (as with these 'attenuated, grayish but really' seen imagery) to look closely and investigate a bit. That latter proved to be draining (for me), to say the least. On the other hand, I've found out that entering really vivid coloured and meaningfull scenery that appear later (I do not and will not call these HI, since that is what and how clairvoyant people see) is a good option for my LD or AP (from dild its mainly AP). Now, that's not delta any more, and is a good place to finish my post here.

Once again, your answer helped a lot with puting some drifting parts in their right place in my head. Thanks Sageous!:goodjob2:

I recommend the book: Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, you can download it for free of the web, just google its PDF form.

The book has pretty much everything you need to know about what Sageous is talking about in this thread, it's what they call sleep yoga. Dream yoga is the lucid dreaming part, sleep yoga (which is far more difficult) is the practice of maintaing your awareness as you drift into the unconscious dream state. The ultimate goal of sleep yoga is to be aware of your own awareness and nothing more. There should be no thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. you might be aware of it, but you should not be tied to any form. This is also most likely the reason you remember these experiences metaphysically, leaving it almost impossible to explain with thought form.

Thank you TheHomeBeef, if nothing else, you have prompted me to continue here with a few words
after I quote a few paragraphs from the recommended book:

"In the first moment of any experience, before a reaction occurs, there is only
pure perception. The prana involved in this pure experiencing is the primordial
wisdom prana, the energy that underlies experience prior to or free of grasping
or aversion. This pure experience does not leave a trace and is not the cause of
any dream. The wisdom prana moves in the central channel and is the energy of
rigpa. This moment is very brief, a flash of pure experience of which we are
usually unaware. It is our reaction to this moment, our grasping and aversion,
that we think of as our experience." (from above mentioned book)

and this:

"Clear light is defined in most texts as the unity of emptiness and clarity. It is
the pure, empty awareness that is the base of the individual. "Clear" refers to
emptiness, (...), the base, (...). "Light" refers to clarity, (...)
pure innate awareness. Clear light is direct realization of the unity of (light+clear), of awareness and emptiness.
Ignorance is compared to a dark room in which you sleep. Awareness is a
lamp in that room. No matter how long the room has been dark, an hour or a
million years, the moment the lamp of awareness is lit the entire room becomes
luminous. (...) You are that
luminosity. You are the clear light; it is not an object of your experience or a
mental state. When the luminous awareness in the darkness is blissful, clear,
unmoving, without reference, without judgment, without center or
circumference, that is rigpa. It is the nature of mind. (...)" (same)

+

"Liberation from ignorance and suffering occurs when we recognize and abide in
our true nature. That which recognizes is not the conceptual mind; it is the
fundamental mind, the nature of mind, rigpa. Our necessary task is to
distinguish, in practice, between the conceptual mind and the pure awareness of
the nature of mind." (same)


One main problem I have both with dream and / or sleep yogas is that in my experience, AWAKE yoga is what is and where "the catch 22" lies hidden. I've had both dream and sleep (I believe now that most if not all people do so practicaly every day, even if not aware of it) dynamics during awake. Now, it is my sincere understanding that only in a unity of the three (states: awake, dream and sleep) is what ultimately all seekers look for and endeavor to find. In any case, both dreams and sleep-state "leak" into our everyday awake life, not only the other way around. It is true that one can solve some things in dreams and LD's, some other in sleep and lucid-sleep, but it is what we bring HERE from there is what counts. Subjective mind (double, dream-consciousness or whatever) has intelligence of its own and does it's thing all the time. I see many who try to experience "it" (even I myself was one of those) as if it is a goal and an end in itself, but it is only the beginning. The realization that it is not not only "the end", but a real beginning, was for me completely unexpected and I dare say: shattering.

Even that thing called "liberation" is not lived during sleep nor dream, but in full everyday awakeness. Yoga does not end with samadhi, it starts with it. After that famous "eighth step" called sama+dhi (translated in english as something like "composure-ness", deep inner sobriety or clearness or clarity of intelligence (intelligence here seems more appropriate then overused "mind"-term), there is the 9th step and even 10th and not only both, but all eight previous steps relate to what is known as Dharma - the right way (of living one's life).

So, if anyone has delta-lucidity experience, one needs to know that delta can and must become the basis for everyday waking life, if one understands delta-lucidity as (not simply lucid nREM but) that "clear-light" awareness.

How easy it is to forget that even yoga itself rests on two first steps and those NEVER end. They are the only steps which show of the kind of unity (yoga) it is all about. And toward the end, they point to what samadhi is all about, not being merely "body asleep+mind awake" (which itself need not be delta-lucidity but may be a handfull of different things) state as some would put it a definition of "meditative state". What today goes as "meditation", few hundred years back was in the west called "contemplation". Since that term was linked in the West with some interesting christian practices (as waiting on God, sitting in silence, like in hesuhasm, quietism etc.), it was subsequently changed into its opposite (at that time) and so we today are left with a bit of confusion... Strange how easily words seem to change their meanings...

For me, that "clear-light" awareness is what delta-lucidity is all about. And same delta-lucidity may be experienced during lucid-sleeping, may be experienced during meditation (I read about the case when swami Rama was connected to EEG during his meditations and it showed some strong delta-waves as in deep healthy sleep), but it also may be experienced during most-lucid-awake. If one knows what to look for. And even than, its only for a moment or few moments, as it makes the link to subjective mind, or better said, subjective mind (clear light) links with objective (usual conceptual mind) here.

Some interesting things on delta waves can be read / for example / here:

Understanding The \"Delta\" Brainwave | 4 Mind 4 Life: Mental Health Tips


I can only hope that this post of mine was not to intense...

It's been a while since I've had anything to share here, but last night I happened to be conscious and lucid through what felt like a decent portion of NREM during my second sleep cycle of the night, some of which may have been delta sleep.

Initially, the feeling was quieter and “deeper” than the usual near-awakening light NREM I experience. Sensory input was fairly quiet, though there were occasional vibration-like sensations and a feeling of my body's orientation slowly shifting in space. At first, I may have not felt entirely certain I was asleep, or I thought I may have only been hovering on the edge of sleep due to the feeling of the sensations coming and going. In retrospect, it seems more obvious that I probably was definitely well into NREM. In particular, it seemed to last quite a while, and in my experience, very light, non-delta NREM doesn't normally last that long before I either go into REM or wake up (or float through half-awake hypnagogia at the very least, which is totally unlike this).

Time passed, and I continued to observe myself. At some point, I noticed that the sensations, and especially my thoughts, were very quiet, and I figured this might be a sign of being in delta sleep. At the time, I believed I had a better handle on my perception of time and how much had passed up to this point, whereas in my last experiences of this sleep stage, time seemed to be a very slippery concept. However, looking back, I feel it wasn't actually all that clear how long it had been, still (or at least, it wasn't once it was over and I tried to look back on it). I also observed that, as during my last deep NREM episodes, it was very easy to keep my mind still, unlike when I'm awake where there's always that irresistible urge to think about anything and everything all the time even when I try to meditate on purpose. And again, though it didn't occur to me to check for this at the time, I get the impression that my thoughts during this stage were predominantly nonverbal.

After a while, I somehow started losing track of waking-life memory and eventually lucidity. I was imagining myself as floating around in some kind of dark underwater setting, perhaps thinking of myself as being a deep sea creature. I may have been thinking of being there with other creatures or “people”. I seemed to start thinking about where my sleeping body was and what physical position it was in, and perhaps imagined casually commenting to one of the other “DCs” about it, but I seemed to start thinking along the lines that this “underwater” setting was my physical sleeping location.

And from there, though I don't clearly remember the transition, I eventually slid into REM, with the usual vivid dream imagery (up to this point, there had been very little or no imagery at all). By this time, I had lost lucidity. There was a fairly brief NLD about being among a family of sea animals living in what looked like a really big swimming pool and seeking assistance from some land animals for warding off predators and for moving from one “swimming pool” to another nearby one, I think. (This is actually rather unusual content as far as my own dreams go, which makes it rather interesting in itself.) Then I woke up, remembering the NLD somewhat, and the lucid NREM that preceded it more clearly.

I'm not exactly sure where one would draw the line between light sleep and delta NREM, but last night I had a nice lucid experience, occurring just short of an hour into sleep at the beginning of the night, during what felt like at least “medium-deep” sleep (or if nothing else, definitely distinct from the light, “just under the surface” NREM I more typically experience in late sleep and near the point of just falling asleep or waking up). I believe much of it took on the form of perhaps a NREM dream: There was some imagery, making it perhaps not quite “pure” delta sleep, but it wasn't like a typical REM dream, either.

This one was relatively short (as far as it felt) and not strictly groundbreaking, but I enjoyed it for being another fresh, new excursion into the deeper realms of sleep as well as providing me an encouraging demonstration of how my sleep-time self-awareness has been improving over the last few years.

Initially, there was a dream plot (mainly verbal, without much in the way of visual imagery) in which I heard family members telling rather frightening stories about past close encounters with lightning strikes during storms. This was putting me in a somewhat tense mood, as if I thought I was under a thunderstorm in which something like this might happen to me. (It seems I was also meanwhile trying to cognitively navigate a house, despite the lack of visual imagery, which is hard to explain.)

But at some point I somehow happened to remember that I was actually in bed sleeping and recognized I was probably undergoing NREM and experiencing some of the “chaotic/frightening/cataclysmic” sorts of thoughts and emotions that seem fairly common to me in this state. Knowing that there was no actual danger allowed me to relax and observe and appreciate the fascinating things going on. By this point, things were mostly dark and quiet, but I visually saw the occasional bright, colorful phosphene- or HH-like swirls that have been a familiar occurrence in previous NREM episodes I've had.

At one point during the quiet period, I remembered how someone had posted earlier in this thread about how they had tried asking themselves a question about a deep personal issue during delta sleep and received some kind of immediate, powerful symbol with the answer. I decided to try it myself amid the swirling HH, but seemed not to get a clear reply.

Then, some new imagery formed: It appeared as though I was enclosed inside a small, dark and opaque cube. Each of the six sides seemed to be bounded by an impenetrable wall of colored swirls encased behind what looked somewhat like a stereo speaker grille. The imagery still felt more like that of perhaps a NREM dream; it wasn't as bright and vivid as usual REM dreams. Thoughts still seemed to play a more primary role in the experience than physics or a (dream) body (I never really took notice of whether or not I actually had one). My instinctive reaction was that I wanted to break out of the confinement and escape, but I again remembered what was really going on, realizing that the feeling of being trapped was merely illusory, and there was thus no particular need to “escape”. So I continued relaxing and observing. I decided to try meditating to see what would happen, but just as I prepared to do so, I felt myself rapidly rise toward awakening, and a couple of seconds later I was fully awake (I could somehow tell even before opening my eyes).

Intriguing stuff.

^^ Intrguing indeed; thanks for sharing, Travis!

This is an amazing thread. Thank you Sageous. gab pointed me here.

I've remained conscious through the night before. I wasn't even sure at the time if I was sleeping or just daydreaming all night. It was such a blissful night.

It wasn't until I read this thread that I realized perhaps I was even conscious during delta sleep. It explains the weird timeless periods of 'almost nothingness'.

I'm aware that deep sleep is basically a reflection of our true nature. I'm already rather in touch with that still, silent, formless nature. But I take any opportunity to get more in touch with it, so I am going to explore delta sleep some more.

:D

I tried to experience delta sleep and I'm pretty sure I did. About 45 min-1 hour after going to bed, in the middle of exhaling a breath, my senses of touch and hearing went away completely. I could no longer notice my body or my breathing. I found this a bit scary and woke up from it a few seconds later.

I went to bed a couple hours later than I normally do and tried to pay close attention to the experience of falling asleep.

^^ Very cool!

Next time, try to wait out the fear, even if it feels a bit primal (because it is); it will pass as you remember that you are alive and well, and simply in a place you go every night, but don't normally get to witness.

Though I seem to be new here I've been reading in this old but great thread for slightly more than a year as it explained what was happening to me back then. After my first lucid dream (which was a WILD btw) I somehow gained a strange ability: Upon first going to bed my body would fall asleep normally with me staying aware. I didn't intend to do this, I didn't know much about all this stuff let alone that it's possible to be lucid in NREM. It just happened automatically up to the point where I struggled to go to sleep normally (which I needed to do sometimes because staying aware like this for a long time was exhausting nevertheless). Later I found that clearly stating my intention would let me choose how to fall asleep. Has this happened to anyone else?

In that time I often spent half an hour or sometimes more aware in NREM. But still I'm not sure if I indeed experienced delta sleep consciously because I never lost track of my body altogether. It may have been just the memory of it though. Anyway, these explorations where fascinating in themselves. When falling asleep I'd often notice the chemical change in my body (especially the first time); then everything would calm down and my breathing would become slower and regular. I'd feel like sinking deeper over time and my thoughts becoming simpler and somewhat limited, e.g. I remember being not able to access memories once (well, I think I could have accessed them but not without waking me up again). Sometimes thoughts would be represented by dream-like processes except that they were solely based on feeling and not on visual content. After reading about delta sleep here, I tried to go as deep as possible. I came to a room or rather a warehouse with a heavy sliding door, filled with all-consuming darkness. After some time the door opened and that nothingness from within leaked slightly through the entrance. I tried to move on, through the door but I couldn't enter the room no matter what I did. I'd really like to know what I had found in there.