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    Thread: Questions for the Astral Traveler

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      Post Questions for the Astral Traveler

      Here are a few questions for those who claim they "astral project". I would appreciate honest answers, because my questions are serious and honest as well.

      1. Based on what exactly do you believe that astral travel and lucid dreaming aren't one and the same thing? "It feels different" is not an acceptable answer.

      2. Have you ever done a digital clock reality check while astral projecting? If yes, what were the results, and if not, why not?

      3. What can you do during astral projection that you can't do while lucid dreaming?

      4. What can you do in a lucid dream that you can't do during astral projection?

      5. Is there a difference between an OBE and astral projection?

      6. How do astral beings behave differently from dream characters (or dream beings)?

      7. Have you ever thought you were astral projecting and then it turned out to be just a regular lucid dream? If yes, how did this happen?


      I would appreciate if someone could answer each question, instead of posting a general response such as "you don't understand astral projection."

      Thanks much!
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      1. I do not know if Astral travel, and Lucid dreaming are/not the same thing, so a reliable answer that meets your criteria is not forthcoming.
      2. I have never thought of checking a digital clock during the few astral experiences I have had. I do not even use this method in dreams. I just 'know' I am dreaming.
      3. This answer to this question, and number 4. seem to be the same.
      4. I have no control in astral experiences whatsoever. In a lucid, almost anything is possible.
      5. I think they are the same thing, but again, I do not speak with too much experience.
      6. Never met a single entity, ever, in any astral experience. Not managed to get out of my room yet, so this answer must also go partly unanswered.
      7. The difference between a possible astral experience, and a lucid dream are so far apart on the Tiredphil spectrum, I have never mixed the two.
      The only common theme, is I am not conscious when either take place.

      I have tried to answer as honestly as possible, and will follow this thread, as it sounds like it could generate a few good replies.
      Any further questions you would like to add, wil also be answered - if I can.
      Cheers,
      Phil
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      Quote Originally Posted by TiredPhil View Post
      1. I do not know if Astral travel, and Lucid dreaming are/not the same thing, so a reliable answer that meets your criteria is not forthcoming.
      Ok, I appreciate your honesty.

      2. I have never thought of checking a digital clock during the few astral experiences I have had. I do not even use this method in dreams. I just 'know' I am dreaming.
      But don't you think it would be smart to do the digital clock RC during astral projection? If the numbers on the clock change, wouldn't that tell you that you are most likely (99.9%) not astral projecting at all?

      3. This answer to this question, and number 4. seem to be the same.
      4. I have no control in astral experiences whatsoever. In a lucid, almost anything is possible.
      Hmm, this is very weak to be used as evidence. I have had lucid dreams where I can do many things, and other lucid dreams where I can't do anything extraordinary at all. So theoretically, your astral projection experience could have been a lucid dream where you didn't have any control.

      5. I think they are the same thing, but again, I do not speak with too much experience.
      Okay.

      6. Never met a single entity, ever, in any astral experience. Not managed to get out of my room yet, so this answer must also go partly unanswered.
      Okay.

      7. The difference between a possible astral experience, and a lucid dream are so far apart on the Tiredphil spectrum, I have never mixed the two.
      Could you explain, in detail, what those differences are? For example I have had WILDs that could be easily mistaken for astral projection, because they have a completely different feel than a regular DILD, but later on I see that they are really nothing more than a lucid dream.

      The only common theme, is I am not conscious when either take place.
      Let me ask you this: Do you believe that lucid dreams can mask themselves as astral projection?

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      I can read writing in dreams, and it is usualy clear. Same thing with clocks, so not much progress could be made using this method.

      When I am in a dream, I just awaken to lucidity.
      Almost anything that is out of place will alert me to the fact that I am dreaming.
      This is not a learned skill,as I have had the ability from a very young age.
      I even got bored with lucid dreaming, and often let the dream take its course.
      This has knocked the frequency of lucid dreams down by quite a bit, but made dreams much more interesting.
      I have only re-started with the lucid thing since joining this forum.

      A so called OOBE or astral experience is totaly different for me.
      I always start off from my bedroom, and always float upward with zero control.
      I will sometimes drift toward the window, but the floating sensation is quite scary, and I am afraid of heights.
      Once I drifted out, but tried to claw my way back in because I was quite afraid of what was happening.
      This is not the case in lucid dreaming, where I can fly, or do almost anything at heights.

      Also in oobe/astral, I sometimes look around my room, and there are no items out of place.
      In dreams, which are lucid, or not, my bedroom is always similar to the real thing.

      In total, I have had hundreds, or maybe even thousands of lucid dreams, but only a small amount off oobe/astral ( Less than a dozen in 40 years - probably less )

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      "Let me ask you this: Do you believe that lucid dreams can mask themselves as astral projection?"

      Not in my experience. Not at all.

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      Quote Originally Posted by TiredPhil View Post
      I can read writing in dreams, and it is usualy clear. Same thing with clocks, so not much progress could be made using this method.
      This is where I have to stop you. Text can be very clear in a dream, but it isn't stable. Especially not if you look away, look back, and repeat the same thing twice. It has to do with certain parts of the brain that are less active when asleep.

      So yeah, this is the perfect method, no matter how you slice it or dice it. Now if you tell me that the clock does not change for you if you look away and look back, then in all honesty, I find that very hard to believe.

      Of course many "astral travelers" on the forum will confirm your statement and not mine, because they hate the idea that astral projection = lucid dreaming.

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      In real life, I look at a clock only once, however if I look back again it often changes to one more min' ahead.
      So in dreams when I see a clock, and look back again, if it has changed, the change seems normal to me, and I pay it no attention.
      Plus we have quite a few clocks in our house, and all are a few mins out from each other. So change - again - seems normal
      Because numerical figures are quite stable ( to me anyway ) this method of reality checking has never been adopted by myself.
      As for reading. I can not read long stories, or even Dream View replies. I have an an undiagnosed attention problem.

      Question.
      Are you looking to prove or disprove a link between astral/lucid dreaming, or looking for evidence either way ?
      Rhetorical question, that I will answer

      If you are looking to prove the connection, then you will always find 'your' answers.
      If you are looking to disprove the connection you will also always find 'your' answers.
      If you are looking for evidence either way, you may find the real answer.

      It will take more than my poor replies to get to the bottom of your query.
      Why not try some Astral Travel Techniques
      Then some Lucid Dreaming Techniques
      Answers will always make themselves known to a true, determined seeker of knowledge.

      I wish you luck, my friend.

      We need more replies from other members -
      Last edited by TiredPhil; 08-03-2013 at 01:06 AM. Reason: Addition
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      Personally I've had several obe's/astral projection over the last 4 years so I'll share what I 've noticed during that time through your 1st question. (I would answer your other questions Im just tired from a long day @work)

      1) When people say astral travel feels different they may be referring to several things. One being the ability to make a visual distinction (depending on how dark your room is) between you and your sleeping body. Sometimes looking at your sleeping body is not necessary because u can sense it and your consciouness as being temporarily apart from each other. Two. you usually start where your physical body lays which more then likely will be your room. It's not your physical room its an exact copy of it. You know this because if u knock over a lamp during the experience that same lamp will be standing when u wake up. For example If you had a dream that started somewhere else and u managed to make it back to your room the accuracy of what your room looks like will pale in comparison if u were observing it from an astral projection point of view. People may also be referring to the strong vibrations felt at the onset of the experience. Or how u may feel when you wake up from an astral projection, which can feel like you never were asleep in the first place. In other words you don't wake up groggy or slightly disoriented as normally observed after a dream.

      2.
      I can't remember a time I looked at a clock during an obe/ap experience. ?? But if your referring to how something can change when looked at more then once then yes I have witnessed this many times in my dreams it can be quite frustrating. I can't say the same about my obe experiences things seem to be more stable and familiar. I remember walking to my kitchen 1 morning and asking to see lottery numbers pop up in my head. As usual nothing happen. So I got the urge to manifest a newspaper and with in seconds I had one sitting on my kitchen counter top. I flipped a few pages and there they were a six number set. I did look away and look back several times and the numbers stayed the same. I was only able to remember 12,18,32. Those exact numbers came out in the next powerball draw.

      3.
      I think you have a better sense of where your body is located during an Ap , you can even observe it sleeping. Although just like your room being an exact copy of it self so is the body that your observing.Kinda Like looking at another version of yourself in a neighboring reality. Scientist our now theorizing on a multiverse idea which could explain my previous statement alluding to parallel universes. I have also noticed a sense of duality the ability to exist in more then one place. I remember watching my self struggle from a hundred feet away because something was trying to guide me out of earths atmosphere.

      4.
      In a (lucid) dream you can be indifferent from anything accurately resembling your physical reality.


      5.
      I would say an obe is the initial exiting of the body and ap is exploring beyond the initial setting of your room like your neighborhood, other places etc.

      6.
      Astral beings seem to want to guide u in some way or communicate telepathically. Only in my dreams can I recall having verbal conversations with people. But On the other hand I've had astral beings assist me out of my body by pushing me on to my bed room floor or pulling me out of my bed out in to my neighborhood where I flew through the clouds at high speeds. Telepathically I communicated with a astral being through some sort of twitter thought bubble that had tweets I could read from them.

      7. I have yet to see a obe change to a lucid dream or vice versa.
      Last edited by dreamcatcher81; 08-03-2013 at 10:30 AM.
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      "when you fall unconscious, what your mind expresses is a dream.
      When you are aware, what your mind expresses is creativity. It creates your life.
      When you are in a higher state of consciousness, it not only creates the life of whatever you want, but also on whom ever you want". -LifeBlissFoundation

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      Quote Originally Posted by Gills View Post
      Here are a few questions for those who claim they "astral project". I would appreciate honest answers, because my questions are serious and honest as well.

      1. Based on what exactly do you believe that astral travel and lucid dreaming aren't one and the same thing? "It feels different" is not an acceptable answer.

      2. Have you ever done a digital clock reality check while astral projecting? If yes, what were the results, and if not, why not?

      3. What can you do during astral projection that you can't do while lucid dreaming?

      4. What can you do in a lucid dream that you can't do during astral projection?

      5. Is there a difference between an OBE and astral projection?

      6. How do astral beings behave differently from dream characters (or dream beings)?

      7. Have you ever thought you were astral projecting and then it turned out to be just a regular lucid dream? If yes, how did this happen?


      I would appreciate if someone could answer each question, instead of posting a general response such as "you don't understand astral projection."

      Thanks much!
      such a great and in your face question.
      1: no different other than expectations.
      2: exactly the same as in lucid dream, figures change before your eyes
      3: nothing other than your own expectations limiting factor
      4: ^
      5: the only thing I can possibly think of that's different is medical emergency type experiences which I have not experienced (research traumatic events, near death, war stories of men being "blown out of body" by extreme force of impact etc)
      6: not at all different
      7: yes at first. after much experimenting i have come to the conclusion that they are exactly one and the same. the experience is no different between the two other than what your own expectations might constrict it to being.

      now having said all that..the real question for me at this stage in my learning is "what exactly is happening during a dream"? (especially lucid dreaming). are we actually spiritually leaving our physical bodies during this time or is it all taking place in our own mind? i've had many experiences that I could 99.9% swear I have exited my physical body and gone some other place yet, comparing to a lucid dream experience, the experience itself and all the laws applying to the experience pertain to both "astral projection" and lucid dreaming. I do not post my lucid dreaming count or "OBE" count but they are both in the several hundreds.
      as i said though, after many experiments during both experiences i've determined for my own knowledge that they are one and the same. this is not to say that an OBE experience is not genuine, interpret that as you will.
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      Quote Originally Posted by TiredPhil View Post
      In real life, I look at a clock only once, however if I look back again it often changes to one more min' ahead.
      Uh yeah, but I'm talking about it changing from 06:23 to 06:28 and then to 27:05. That's how it works in a dream.

      So in dreams when I see a clock, and look back again, if it has changed, the change seems normal to me, and I pay it no attention.
      Next time you are "astral projecting", look at a clock, remember the time, look away, look back, repeat. I am convinced, 100%, that the numbers will change and reveal to you that you're not astral projecting, but lucid dreaming. That is, if you're honest enough to admit it afterwards.

      Plus we have quite a few clocks in our house, and all are a few mins out from each other. So change - again - seems normal


      Because numerical figures are quite stable ( to me anyway ) this method of reality checking has never been adopted by myself.
      The point is that you should at least try to pay attention and see if the clock changes drastically. A very simple, regular reality check, no more no less.

      As for reading. I can not read long stories, or even Dream View replies. I have an an undiagnosed attention problem.
      That may very well be true, but it seems to me that many people are very dishonest about the AP-LD connection. I'm not sure (yet) if you are one of those people.

      Question.
      Are you looking to prove or disprove a link between astral/lucid dreaming, or looking for evidence either way ?
      Rhetorical question, that I will answer

      If you are looking to prove the connection, then you will always find 'your' answers.
      If you are looking to disprove the connection you will also always find 'your' answers.
      If you are looking for evidence either way, you may find the real answer.
      I have so far found that there are no real differences between AP and LD other than what Runeword already pointed out, and it has to do with expectation. You expect that the AP is something different, and it will feel different and have certain different characteristics than a regular LD. I am talking from personal experience when I say that I thought I was astral projecting for quite some time, and then figured out I wasn't... by learning about a simple digital clock reality check.

      It will take more than my poor replies to get to the bottom of your query.
      Why not try some Astral Travel Techniques
      Then some Lucid Dreaming Techniques
      Answers will always make themselves known to a true, determined seeker of knowledge.
      I tried many things, and I'm convinced that AP is a normal LD masked as AP.

      I wish you luck, my friend.

      We need more replies from other members -
      BTW, here is a thread that made me bust into tears from laughing: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...-dreaming.html

      The OP lists 30 similarities between LD and Astral Projection, lists not one single difference, and then claims they are not the same thing.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Runeword View Post
      such a great and in your face question.
      1: no different other than expectations.
      2: exactly the same as in lucid dream, figures change before your eyes
      3: nothing other than your own expectations limiting factor
      4: ^
      5: the only thing I can possibly think of that's different is medical emergency type experiences which I have not experienced (research traumatic events, near death, war stories of men being "blown out of body" by extreme force of impact etc)
      6: not at all different
      7: yes at first. after much experimenting i have come to the conclusion that they are exactly one and the same. the experience is no different between the two other than what your own expectations might constrict it to being.

      now having said all that..the real question for me at this stage in my learning is "what exactly is happening during a dream"? (especially lucid dreaming). are we actually spiritually leaving our physical bodies during this time or is it all taking place in our own mind? i've had many experiences that I could 99.9% swear I have exited my physical body and gone some other place yet, comparing to a lucid dream experience, the experience itself and all the laws applying to the experience pertain to both "astral projection" and lucid dreaming. I do not post my lucid dreaming count or "OBE" count but they are both in the several hundreds.
      as i said though, after many experiments during both experiences i've determined for my own knowledge that they are one and the same. this is not to say that an OBE experience is not genuine, interpret that as you will.
      Great post. I appreciate your honesty.

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      I have a strong belief that lucid dreams and "astral projection" (I prefer the term "out of body experience") are somehow related. That being said, but having experienced a number of both, I still find them still to be quite distinct events. The following are just observations from my own experiences and are obviously my own speculation and beliefs - not necessarily "reality".

      In a lucid dream, you are aware you are dreaming. In an OBE, you are quite certain you are NOT dreaming. (Big distinction!).

      In a lucid dream, your focus of awareness is the "you" in the dream. In an OBE, you often observe your physical body from a focus of awareness outside the body. You may observe, from your physical body, the "outside you" actually separate from the "physical you" and later observe the reconnection from either or both perspectives. Your consciousness seems to reside in separate focuses but your awareness can be concentrated in one or the other.

      Lucid dreams often lead to OBE's, but OBE's never seem to lead to lucid dreams.

      Lucid dreams, though unusual, are still within the normal realm of human experience. Out of body experiences feel decidedly "not normal" - especially the first time you experience one. In fact, an OBE can change one's paradigm about the true nature of consciousness, reality, and spirituality.

      Your first lucid dream is usually a fun experience. Your first OBE will likely scare the living daylights out of you!

      Lucid dream settings can be virtually anywhere. OBE settings inevitably initiate from the location of your physical body.

      In a lucid dream, your consciousness is already separate from your body. In an OBE, you witness the separation as it actually happens.

      Again, my belief is that lucid dreams, OBE's, false awakenings, sleep paralysis, hypnogogic and hypnopompic states are all related somehow, but the characteristics of the events themselves are markedly different.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tarvus View Post
      I have a strong belief that lucid dreams and "astral projection" (I prefer the term "out of body experience") are somehow related. That being said, but having experienced a number of both, I still find them still to be quite distinct events. The following are just observations from my own experiences and are obviously my own speculation and beliefs - not necessarily "reality".
      Fair enough.

      In a lucid dream, you are aware you are dreaming. In an OBE, you are quite certain you are NOT dreaming. (Big distinction!).
      I disagree with this statement, as many people are aware that an "OBE" is taking place, if that is what you meant. On the other hand, if you are not aware/lucid, that means an OBE could be a simple "dream" which masks itself as an OBE. You simply dream about being separated from your body. Many years ago I thought I had OBEs for months, and after learning about lucid dreaming I was able to find out that these OBEs were nothing more than WILDs. Why is everybody avoiding the question about doing a simple digital clock reality check in an OBE? They either ignore this question or say something similar to "numbers are always stable for me in dreams", which is 99% bull.

      In a lucid dream, your focus of awareness is the "you" in the dream. In an OBE, you often observe your physical body from a focus of awareness outside the body. You may observe, from your physical body, the "outside you" actually separate from the "physical you" and later observe the reconnection from either or both perspectives. Your consciousness seems to reside in separate focuses but your awareness can be concentrated in one or the other.
      A lucid dream has the power to make you observe your "body" lying in bed, as well as a feeling of separation from your body. A lucid dream has the power to do all those things. If you can be an animal in a lucid dream, grow limbs in a lucid dream, clone yourself in a lucid dream, and do a ton of other spectacular things, what makes you think a lucid dream can't also give you the feeling you're outside of your body? I hope you see where I'm going with this. It seems the biggest argument/evidence the astral travelers have is that it "feels different", and that's it.

      Lucid dreams often lead to OBE's, but OBE's never seem to lead to lucid dreams.
      Seeing how there is no solid evidence that OBE's are something other than dreams, this statement has no value.

      Lucid dreams, though unusual, are still within the normal realm of human experience. Out of body experiences feel decidedly "not normal" - especially the first time you experience one. In fact, an OBE can change one's paradigm about the true nature of consciousness, reality, and spirituality.
      Actually, the WILDs I had (and still have) made me change my paradigm about the nature of consciousness. If someone dreams they are out of their body and looking at themselves in bed, this might seem frightening at first, but there are also many other dreams and nightmares that can convince you that something supernatural happened.

      Your first lucid dream is usually a fun experience. Your first OBE will likely scare the living daylights out of you!
      Actually, my very first lucid dream scared the living daylights out of me, as did my first two or three WILDs.

      Lucid dream settings can be virtually anywhere. OBE settings inevitably initiate from the location of your physical body.
      Every single WILD I have had (and I've had hundreds) began in the room I fell asleep in, so I don't see anything significant in this statement.

      In a lucid dream, your consciousness is already separate from your body. In an OBE, you witness the separation as it actually happens.
      Dreams can create wonders. You can feel your body passing through walls, tasting food, having sex, flying, shapeshifting, growing additional limbs, and whatnot else... so why can't a dream recreate a realistic feeling of separation from your body?

      Again, my belief is that lucid dreams, OBE's, false awakenings, sleep paralysis, hypnogogic and hypnopompic states are all related somehow, but the characteristics of the events themselves are markedly different.
      My belief is that OBEs are dreams, no more no less. I don't see any reason to believe otherwise, and in my personal experience all me OBE's turned out to be dreams after doing a simple reality check. Again we see the popular pattern of people repeating "it feels really different" as a convincing argument.

      "It's scary", "you look at your body", "you feel separating" are really really weak arguments.

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      This thread is going nowhere.
      You are contradicting almost every comment made, that does not match your beliefs.

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      Quote Originally Posted by TiredPhil View Post
      This thread is going nowhere.
      You are contradicting almost every comment made, that does not match your beliefs.
      It doesn't have anything to do with beliefs. I am asking if someone has done reality checks, specifically the digital clock RC, during an OBE experience. People are avoiding this question, and those who aren't avoiding it are claiming they don't do this reality check ever... which is also... a bit strange to say the least.

      What do you want me to say to someone who claims OBE's aren't dreams simply because they "feel special"? Of course I will counter that statement every time someone makes it. The question is WHY can't a dream, lucid or otherwise, create a perfect OBE experience? Why can't a simple dream recreate the feeling of you separating from your body and looking at it?

      If someone during an OBE or astral projection can find some text to read, reads it 3 times and it hasn't changed, then looks at a digital clock 3 times and it hasn't changed either, then there is reason to believe that he is really experiencing something other than a dream. In this case he is most likely having some type of out of body experience.

      Everything else a.k.a "it feels different" or "it's scary" simply isn't evidence enough. Dreams can fool you. They fooled me, too. The sole reason I made this thread is because I managed to convince a friend that he is not having an OBEs, by making him do the digital clock thing. He never knew about reality checks or what lucid dreams are.

      So please don't get all worked up about it. I simply want, those who claim they are separating from their body, to do a simple digital clock reality check next time they are having this experience... and to honestly post the results.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Gills View Post

      My belief is that OBEs are dreams, no more no less. I don't see any reason to believe otherwise, and in my personal experience all me OBE's turned out to be dreams after doing a simple reality check. Again we see the popular pattern of people repeating "it feels really different" as a convincing argument.

      "It's scary", "you look at your body", "you feel separating" are really really weak arguments.
      As I said in my post before, I believe lucid dreams, OBE's, sleep paralysis, hypnogogic/hypnopompic states are all somehow related. You may well be correct that OBE's may in fact be lucid dreams. But since we draw a distinction between sleep paralysis and hypnogogia or lucid dreams and hypnopompia, what's wrong with making a distinction between lucid dreaming and OBE's? My post was made with an intent to state the differences I've personally observed between the lucid dream experience and OBE experience. It was in no way intended to appear argumentative. Sorry that you perceived it that way.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Gills View Post
      It doesn't have anything to do with beliefs. I am asking if someone has done reality checks, specifically the digital clock RC, during an OBE experience. People are avoiding this question, and those who aren't avoiding it are claiming they don't do this reality check ever... which is also... a bit strange to say the least.

      What do you want me to say to someone who claims OBE's aren't dreams simply because they "feel special"? Of course I will counter that statement every time someone makes it. The question is WHY can't a dream, lucid or otherwise, create a perfect OBE experience? Why can't a simple dream recreate the feeling of you separating from your body and looking at it?

      If someone during an OBE or astral projection can find some text to read, reads it 3 times and it hasn't changed, then looks at a digital clock 3 times and it hasn't changed either, then there is reason to believe that he is really experiencing something other than a dream. In this case he is most likely having some type of out of body experience.

      Everything else a.k.a "it feels different" or "it's scary" simply isn't evidence enough. Dreams can fool you. They fooled me, too. The sole reason I made this thread is because I managed to convince a friend that he is not having an OBEs, by making him do the digital clock thing. He never knew about reality checks or what lucid dreams are.

      So please don't get all worked up about it. I simply want, those who claim they are separating from their body, to do a simple digital clock reality check next time they are having this experience... and to honestly post the results.
      I do not do reality checks of any kind. I never have.
      It will not be such an important task that I can remember to do these things when I become lucid.
      It just is not something I have ever done, so I must decline on this one.
      If you can think of some other task for me, that fits in with my way of thinking/dreaming. I will glady take part.

      Again reading text more than once is not a common task that people undertake.
      DV members becoming lucid may want to do the Superman thing, rather than waste an opportunity reading words on a page three times.

      Going downhill in a car feels very different to going uphill in a car. These two are poles apart, but are the same thing.
      They feel very different, and they are. But different forces/circumstances dictate their definitions as being 'not the same'
      You can argue that the two actions are the same, or they are distinctly seperate.

      As you have converted one believer from their beliefs, do you now want to convert everyone else ?
      Then 'if' you are proven wrong, will you then try to convert everybody back to your version of the truth.

      Try asking yourself, why you are so adamant that you should make your beliefs come before others.

      If you do not resort to any more comments like " So please don't get all worked up about it" then I will gladly respond to your thread some more.

      I might even think up some exercises, or reality checks to support your point of view, but not at the moment.

      Cheers,
      Phil
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      This thread needs a few other participants to drag it up from the pits.
      There is too much counter contradiction going on by all sides, and not enough experienced events being shown.
      I would send messages to Sivason, Original Poster,Joanna B, Linkzelda and a quite few others to join in on either side, but they are probably too busy, and do not have the skills to put in a good opinion.

      ( That will rattle a few cages ) or am I beating a

      Love this forum

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      Quote Originally Posted by Gills View Post
      Here are a few questions for those who claim they "astral project". I would appreciate honest answers, because my questions are serious and honest as well.

      [COLOR="#800080"][B]1. Based on what exactly do you believe that astral travel and lucid dreaming aren't one and the same thing? "It feels different" is not an acceptable answer.

      What kind of answer are you looking for if you are going to limit what can be answered. See below,,,

      [COLOR="#800080"][B]1. Based on what exactly do you believe that BLUE and YELLOW aren't one and the same thing? "It LOOKS different" is not an acceptable answer.

      [COLOR="#800080"][B]1. Based on what exactly do you believe that WARM WATER and COOL WATER aren't one and the same thing? "It feels different" is not an acceptable answer.
      Peace Be With You. Oh, and sure, The Force too, why not.



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      Quote Originally Posted by sivason View Post
      What kind of answer are you looking for if you are going to limit what can be answered. See below,,,
      My questions are very simple, and Runeword answered them honestly.

      Based on what exactly do you believe that BLUE and YELLOW aren't one and the same thing? [COLOR="#B22222"]"It LOOKS different" is not an acceptable answer.

      Based on what exactly do you believe that WARM WATER and COOL WATER aren't one and the same thing? [COLOR="#B22222"]"It feels different" is not an acceptable answer.
      This is a very weak comparison. We have a light spectrum, wavelength, energy of light, and frequency. We know what separates blue from being yellow, and black from being white. Same thing with warm and cold water, we measure temperature.

      As far as OBEs and/or dreams go, we have several possibilities to test and see which state we are in. Why does this seem so problematic to some people? Unless of course, they don't want to accept the idea that their OBE experiences are simply their subconscious fooling them.

      Fact: If the numbers on a digital clock change in an "OBE" just as they would in a dream, then you are dreaming. If they do not change after looking back repeatedly, then you are definitely in another state of consciousness, perhaps really some kind of OBE.

      Very simple. 2 + 2 = 4.

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      Quote Originally Posted by TiredPhil View Post
      I do not do reality checks of any kind. I never have.
      It will not be such an important task that I can remember to do these things when I become lucid.
      It just is not something I have ever done, so I must decline on this one.
      But are you not interested to see if your OBEs are really OBEs?

      If you can think of some other task for me, that fits in with my way of thinking/dreaming. I will glady take part.
      The digital clock RC takes 5 seconds, or a bit more if you repeat it a few times. Couldn't be quicker, and easier, and more reliable to see if you are really separated from your body. So why not do it?

      It seems that you do not want to see the results of this reality check, because it might shatter your beliefs and show you that you're dreaming.

      Again reading text more than once is not a common task that people undertake.
      DV members becoming lucid may want to do the Superman thing, rather than waste an opportunity reading words on a page three times.
      Then you haven't read some of the threads on this forum. Many users use "reading text" as a way to become lucid in the first place. Hell, that's what DILDs (Dream Initiated Lucid Dreams) are all about. Sure, some might count fingers or try to breathe through their nose, but in the end testing your state it what it comes down to... unless you're a "natural".

      Going downhill in a car feels very different to going uphill in a car. These two are poles apart, but are the same thing.
      They feel very different, and they are. But different forces/circumstances dictate their definitions as being 'not the same'
      You can argue that the two actions are the same, or they are distinctly seperate.
      I don't see how this can be applied into this situation. Going downhill cannot be masked so you think you're going uphill, and vice versa. Dreams on the other hand, can very well fool you when it comes to hundreds of different things. That's why we have reality checks to see if we are dreaming.

      As you have converted one believer from their beliefs, do you now want to convert everyone else ?
      Then 'if' you are proven wrong, will you then try to convert everybody back to your version of the truth.
      First, I did not convert anyone, I simply suggested he should do a reality check next time he "separates" from his body. He actually converted himself.

      Second, how can I be proven wrong? I have convinced myself that my out of body experiences are not out of body experiences, but maybe some other person really has them. That's why I suggest doing the digital clock RC. I don't see a problem.

      Try asking yourself, why you are so adamant that you should make your beliefs come before others.
      I'm not. I simply asked a few questions, and one user (Runeword) answered them very honestly.

      If you do not resort to any more comments like " So please don't get all worked up about it" then I will gladly respond to your thread some more.
      It just looked that way. No offense.

      I might even think up some exercises, or reality checks to support your point of view, but not at the moment.

      Cheers,
      Phil
      Okay.

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      Wave length meters and thermometers are physical devices. As no physical devices are present inside our heads, please give me an example of how you would answer those questions assuming you have no access to any device I would not have access to while dreaming. It makes little sense. Deprived of any form of physical measuring device, you almost have to just say "blue is not yellow because I SEE it with my own eyes"

      I am not being a jerk. I know you like science and you know I claim to have a prestigious science degree. Think of this as just a bonus question to help your exploration. I am sure reasonable answer could be drawn up. So, here is the challenge. As no material is available in the dream/astral question, take the blue/yellow question as a simali and show us, via your answer, what form of answer you would like to the origanal question you posed.
      Last edited by sivason; 08-04-2013 at 11:29 PM. Reason: G
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      Quote Originally Posted by sivason View Post
      Wave length meters and thermometers are physical devices. As no physical devices are present inside our heads, please give me an example of how you would answer those questions assuming you have no access to any device I would not have access to while dreaming. It makes little sense. Deprived of any form of physical measuring device, you almost have to just say "blue is not yellow because I SEE it with my own eyes"

      I am not being a jerk. I know you like science and you know I claim to have a prestigious science degree. Think of this as just a bonus question to help your exploration. I am sure reasonable answer could be drawn up. So, here is the challenge. As no material is available in the dream/astral question, take the blue/yellow question as a simali and show us, via your answer, what form of answer you would like to the origanal question you posed.
      We do have a "device" of sorts, and that's called reality testing. What is so problematic about doing a simple digital clock RC during an OBE experience or during astral projection? Why does the question "did you ever do a digital clock RC during astral projection" always result in 20 paragraphs of text basically avoiding the issue?

      Scenario 1: I think I have just separated from my body and I'm not in a dream. I do a reality check. The numbers change. Result: It's a dream.

      Scenario 2: I think I have just separated from my body and I'm not in a dream. I do a reality check. The numbers do not change. I do it again, the numbers do not change. Result: It is not a dream, but another state of consciousness, perhaps really an out of body experience.

      What is the problem? I don't see it.

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      I can't be seen as expert in dreaming of any sort. But I will tell you that I'm with Gills on this one. The question he poses is pretty simple guys. Go do the reality check. I guess if you're an experienced OBEist you won't mind wasting 5 sec of your hundredth OBE on a simple RC. After that you can go do whatever you planed! I'd do it right now if I could and I'm also very interested in this. I felt the "feeling" of the OBE once (scared the crap out of me). That's what got me into Lucid dreaming in the first place, but I also felt a WILD entrance which was quite similar. Again I'm no expert but I'd like this to be discussed and got over with.
      "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one" (especially here)

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      Quote Originally Posted by Gills View Post

      Scenario 1: I think I have just separated from my body and I'm not in a dream. I do a reality check. The numbers change. Result: It's a dream.
      You seem to be making an either-or assumption. It's a possibility that the same part of the brain used in reading digital clocks is disengaged during an OBE as well as in a lucid dream. Have you considered that? If you assume all single headlight vehicles are motorcycles you aren't accounting for the car with one burned-out headlight.

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