Back Again With A More Intense Need Than Ever

First of all I want to apologize to everyone who I promised not quite a year ago that I would stick to lucid dreaming learning no matter what. Real life issues overrode willpower.

Well those real life issues came to a head in a way that I don't want to go into detail about here. As a Wiccan I've been praying desperately to the gods to help me with these issues. Being a big believer in working to answer your own prayers after making them, with the added willpower gained from communication with the gods, whether they exist as psychological representations or actual existing beings (I'm probably an agnostic in almost the truest sense), I'm going to do everything I am able to do in the PHYSICAL plane to help myself and those I need to be helping. However, I am thinking it can't hurt to delve into the realm of the spiritual, in order to cover all possibilities of setting things right, especially in this coming week, or month, depending on my psychological progress, as I'll be rather limited in what I can physically do during that time.

So, to get to the point. I am asking for help with the concept of shared dreaming. I honestly have no idea if dreams exist in a separate plane or only in the mind, but by the gods, if shared dreaming IS possible it could potentially be more helpful to me and those I love than anything.

The situation I'm in involves soulmates and life destiny, the latter of which I believe is not preordained but determined by one's actions. This will be the most dedicated I have ever been to learning something because it is the most desperate situation I have ever found myself in. To all who are able to help, thank you.

personally i don't think shared dreaming is real. i've tried to verify it many times with close friends and have never come up with anything that made me even remotely confident that it's a valid concept. not sure if that will be of any help but you really didn't ask any particular question that i could be more specific about. "destiny", "soulmate" etc all that is something i flat out do not believe in.

And now for another positive, helpful response ;):

I don't know if you're going to get much useful help here, Kael, other than lots of testimonials from people who are sure shared dreaming worked for them, or from the many who "believe," and don't believe, in shared dreaming.

If shared dreaming exists, it may be that your own personal concept of it will work as well as anyone else's. Indeed, I would guess that it must be your personal concept that drives your inquiry into shared dreaming, as doing it, I imagine, would require metaphors that mean something to you and to the dreamers you wish to share with.

In other words, you'll likely learn more useful information about shared dreaming on your own than you would getting info from individuals here, whose concepts are centered on their experience (or, worse, what they read from others).

That said, I would love to see shared dreaming exist, because that would rewrite the physics books and completely change our concept of reality, given that shared dreaming must defy several laws of space and time, and I imagine would need a new form of energy that can be directed and received in ways that electromagnetism simply can't match. Plus, it would prove that our consciousness is not confined to our heads, which would be cool on a lot of levels.

Gotta say I appreciate your honesty, Runeword.

Sageous, yea I'm finding that I'm mostly on my own. Talking in the chat rooms has directed me to some good resources though.

my journey with dream new agism, life destiny, soul mates, ended back in 2011. Basically i had created a DC and was going to use that based on the law to attract a soul mate. well i met 2 close calls. one was a muslim girl who was thrown into an arranged marriage shortly after i met her (ouch yes, i know). The other was the spitting image of my DC but was 8 years younger than me with extreme daddy and abuse issues, who even in spite of having a short lived really wonderful friendship, moved away and couldn't even take 5 minutes to call me, after i had an abusive episode with my dad. Her excuse being that she had to watch a movie with her room mate. I had dreams of her, psychic readings, signs and synchronicities (you name it) all saying she was going to come back and say sorry. now 2 years later it's pretty clear it's more than likely not going to happen.

needless to say, i think i have a pretty good understanding of what your desperate situation FEELS LIKE. It's like getting an arm cut off while you constantly hallucinate it being there, while having a constant emotional flue than never seems to go away (and also wants to wake you up in the middle of the night screaming that person's name). after 2 years it's about 80% less intense, but still not completely gone.

So now I've gone the other way. /well yeah, to Jesus. Who actually has shown up in dreams, I've done my research on this quite a bit. but you my friend have been a victim of demonic harassment, As have I. the gods you pray to, or the spirit guides i used to meditate to, aren't gods or guides. They are fallen angels, The bible describes quite clearly how these beings entice and manipulate people, certainly describes my situation anyway. These beings are like cruel masters who tease dogs with meat and take it away at the last second, doing anything to lead you on, but not deliver much of anything. I suggest you do your own research on this. good luck.

Thanks Man Of Shred. I do have a feeling that evil has been doing its work in my life of late, whether or not it's related to the gods I'm currently praying to, well, as you suggest I'll do my own research.

Kael Seoras:

It seems unlikely to me that shared dreaming could help much with any life or relationship problems. To whatever extent you have a real psychological or 'spiritual' connection with another person, that connection is there whether you're dreaming or not. And if you need to interact in sounds and/or pictures with someone, we already have a method of shared dreaming that works very well for that, in other words waking life. If you're obstructed in waking life, you're probably obstructed in that regard anyway. But to whatever extent love and/or prayer helps, you don't need shared dreaming for that, it just works automatically when you do it.

Man of Shred: I'm glad that you're going in a direction that's working for you. I agree that New Age stuff is 90% BS, and yes of course spirit guides are fallen angels. But I still find your conclusions somewhat depressing in this sense: A relationship with Jesus involves the real Jesus, and your thought about who Jesus is, and other people's thoughts about who Jesus is, blended together. Your thought of Jesus isn't perfect, and neither are any of the collective thoughts of who he is that we tap into psychically. So always good is mixed at least a little bit with bad. Relationships with other people are like that too: our relationships with other people are important, but they're fallen too. Many, many people try to simplify this and try to categorize people as saved/not-saved, Christian/heathen, conservative/liberal, Protestant/Catholic, white/negro, Muslim/infidel, Sunni/Shia, pet/lab-animal, or whatever. Always it dehumanizes and villainizes the out-group so that we can mistreat them with a clear conscience. Of course there are real differences between different groups, I don't mean that everything is equivalent. But its all shades of gray. Trying to pick out one authority or image of something and calling it white so that we have something we can trust makes us much less able to grapple with whatever is wrong in our thought about it and our relationship with it.

But even if we disagree on that point, and we must regard one thing as pure white, I think its still worthwhile being conscious not to paint other things black. Here the same principle applies in the spirit world as in the physical world, because they're deeply interrelated, almost the same thing. Spirits, or fallen angels, or demons if you will, are an inescapable part of what we are. Like human personalities, they make mistakes, tend to be corrupted by power, and don't make very good Gods. But they're a part of life. Branding them as 'evil spirits' and trying to banish them from our reality is very damaging in my view, to them as well as to us. I don't mean that we should seek relationships with spirit guides. I'm just commenting on the absolutist philosophical division between good angels and bad angels, so to speak, since this is an important issue to me personally. I realize it was beside your main point, and maybe not something that's worth everyone else's while to ponder too obsessively anyway.

I've had one experience in shared dreaming where I had the exact dream as another person, at the same time. I'm not sure what you're looking for though...do you want to know how to practice it?

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Originally Posted by Hishtar

do you want to know how to practice it?

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Yes that's what I've been looking into.

shadowofwind, I get what you're saying. I'm always going to prioritize physical communication in the waking world as #1. I'm just trying to build on that, and avoid missing any possible opportunities, waking or sleeping.

The shared dreaming experience I had happened spontaneously as a child. We only knew it happened because we were sleeping in the same room, and it was a scary dream, so we both woke at the same time. How many times does this happen, I wonder, and we don't know about it?

In Robert Waggoner's book Lucid Dreaming, he goes into shared dreaming a bit. Basically, you become lucid, and think of the person you are trying to communicate with. And you go to them. There is one story given about a guy who went to visit a friend but on his way he was blocked by a big black wall. He couldn't get past it. The next time he spoke to his friend, she explained that night before sleep she'd set the intention that she wouldn't be disturbed (something like that). You are not the only player in shared dreaming, you may not be able to share a dream for reasons on the other person's end.

That's actually what I figured it would involve without knowing much about it. Looks like I've got another book to add to my reading list. Thank you.

The Bible gives very clear distinctions on how fallen Angels manipulate us and also provides tests to discern good angels from fallen ones. If you are seeing a psychic such a test might be to ask them them, "Do you believe that God came here in the Flesh as Jesus Christ." I once went to a psychic reading where the woman was channeling one of my guides. i could unfocus my eyes and see her face shit into a bearded white man. When i began reciting the lord's prayer just in my head she suddenly stopped channeling and said "Funny, I'm suddenly not getting anything". I'm not trying to judge people as a group. I am more against the fallen ones. When angels come as messengers from god they give very clear and precise messages in the bible. So called Spirit guides always give vague messages and directions, through synchronicity, dream synchronicity, repeating numbers ad infinitum. I use to follow them without question even though they're directions gave no clear sense. As a result of doing so my life got a lot worse instead of better even though i was given the promises of spiritual power, wealth and love. Quite often they're repeating number signs just lead to endless more signs and don't really lead to anywhere.

as for soul mates. I have spoken with many long time couples who did get together under strange circumstances such as dreaming of their partner before they meet them, or following very clear signs to meet them. Yes this is how i met those people, I was supposed to meet them without a doubt. but people have free will, and also fallen angels can influence people's thoughts and actions. The young girl was a big fan of psychedelic drugs, she also eventually took a mixture which almost killed her. So yes I'm sure I was supposed to meet them but because i was already heavily influenced by fallen angels i believe they went and sabotaged any success that may have come.

Last year a read a free book by Stacie Speilman, called "Betrayed by my Guardian angel". She gives and account where through communicating with spirit guides they were trying to get her to meet her soul mate. they told her to go to a restaraunt in a particular town where she was supposed to meet him. after going there several times she never met him. however a few years later the night she did meet him, she was getting several messages from her guides not to go out with her friend. however she a a strong feeling that she should do so, she went anyway despite her guides almost curing at her. She wound up meeting the man that they had described that night. in later conversation with him after they were together it turn outs the man used to visit that particular restaurant she was guided to, only he frequented there several years before she was getting the promptings from her guides to go there. So that tells me how these guides, they mix truth with lies. So I'm sorry i I'm going to judge people's spirit guides if they are causing people pain.

"By their fruits you will know them."

Man of Shred:

I agree with everything you say there, with one big qualification. If you were to ask me "Do you believe that God came here in the Flesh as Jesus Christ", I'd say that there are too many implied assumptions about the nature of God and reality packed into that for me to be able to give a meaningful answer. On balance I'd have to go with "no". Does this mean I'm less trustworthy than people who would answer yes, or that my thoughts about Jesus Christ are due to my being under the sway of the devil? My thoughts about Jesus are a matter of sincere devotion to God, as I experience and understand God, and I would be sinning against the Holy Spirit to answer "yes" to your question. I can't imagine that makes any sense to you though, within your set of assumptions and definitions.

I think I was clear that I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't judge people's spirit guides if they are causing people pain. Yes, spirit guides do lie, and yes, looking for signs and messages in everything is chasing oneself around in circles. Those things deserve criticism, and you and I are in almost complete agreement about those things. I'll bet we agree about drugs too. Like I said, I'm not doubting your experience or that the path you're taking is right for you. I was just asking for a little bit of tolerance, to not assume that your present ideal and understanding is the best possible for everyone else. If you categorically judge angels as 'good' vs 'fallen', you judge people also, whether you see it that way or not, because we're not entirely separate. If you must condemn me for speaking as who I am, even when I'm not primarily identified as my human personality, because you think I'm possessed by an evil spirit, that's OK. I want you to have that freedom of your own honest perceptions, and to thrive in your relationship with Jesus Christ. But if you can relax your black and white categories a little bit, and accept that you don't always understand what things are for other people, because their experience and understanding is different from yours, that can make things a lot easier. In other words, I'm asking for you to criticize me honestly but please don't persecute me, it has caused far more damage than you know.

The division into categories of 'good' and 'fallen' always results in a kind of persecution, just as it does with categories of people. Its good and necessary to criticize, and even necessary to criticize categories of people, but its a further step to demonize what you don't fully understand. If you call me evil I'm even OK with that, there's an element of truth to it, as shocking as that might sound from someone else's perspective. It reminds of when I was working in the drone warfare industry, and my Christian colleagues working on corrupt, revolving-door contracts were all shocked and offended at my suggestion that we were thieves and killers. But it was true. When I say I'm evil I'm not justifying it, saying I'm content with it, or arguing that I shouldn't be accountable for who I am and what I do. But if you were to draw a contrast between me and other people or spirits, and call them good and me bad because I'm not afraid to admit my own shortcomings, then I would say you don't know what you're talking about. In my mind, honesty is a critical step towards redemption, I can't be redeemed if I can't admit what I am. (I typed omit instead of admit, that's probably true to an extent also.)

It doesn't seem that you understood what I mean when I said that you have a relationship with an individual and collective thought about Jesus Christ as much as with Jesus Christ. If you did, I don't think you'd make the distinction you make about angels. The 'thought' has real power, and almost something like an identity. But maybe that's not a point I'm going to get across.

This goes off topic, so if you want to continue, I think we should start another thread or send private messages. Or we can leave it alone, I'm not asking you to agree with me, just to hear something of what I have to say one time.

You are a Vivaldi fan? His music hasn't clicked with me, but I might like Bach as much as all other music put together.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Man of Shred:

I agree with everything you say there, with one big qualification. If you were to ask me "Do you believe that God came here in the Flesh as Jesus Christ", I'd say that there are too many implied assumptions about the nature of God and reality packed into that for me to be able to give a meaningful answer. On balance I'd have to go with "no". Does this mean I'm less trustworthy than people who would answer yes, or that my thoughts about Jesus Christ are due to my being under the sway of the devil? My thoughts about Jesus are a matter of sincere devotion to God, as I experience and understand God, and I would be sinning against the Holy Spirit to answer "yes" to your question. I can't imagine that makes any sense to you though, within your set of assumptions and definitions.

I think I was clear that I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't judge people's spirit guides if they are causing people pain. Yes, spirit guides do lie, and yes, looking for signs and messages in everything is chasing oneself around in circles. Those things deserve criticism, and you and I are in almost complete agreement about those things. I'll bet we agree about drugs too. Like I said, I'm not doubting your experience or that the path you're taking is right for you. I was just asking for a little bit of tolerance, to not assume that your present ideal and understanding is the best possible for everyone else. If you categorically judge angels as 'good' vs 'fallen', you judge people also, whether you see it that way or not, because we're not entirely separate. If you must condemn me for speaking as who I am, even when I'm not primarily identified as my human personality, because you think I'm possessed by an evil spirit, that's OK. I want you to have that freedom of your own honest perceptions, and to thrive in your relationship with Jesus Christ. But if you can relax your black and white categories a little bit, and accept that you don't always understand what things are for other people, because their experience and understanding is different from yours, that can make things a lot easier. In other words, I'm asking for you to criticize me honestly but please don't persecute me, it has caused far more damage than you know.

The division into categories of 'good' and 'fallen' always results in a kind of persecution, just as it does with categories of people. Its good and necessary to criticize, and even necessary to criticize categories of people, but its a further step to demonize what you don't fully understand. If you call me evil I'm even OK with that, there's an element of truth to it, as shocking as that might sound from someone else's perspective. It reminds of when I was working in the drone warfare industry, and my Christian colleagues working on corrupt, revolving-door contracts were all shocked and offended at my suggestion that we were thieves and killers. But it was true. When I say I'm evil I'm not justifying it, saying I'm content with it, or arguing that I shouldn't be accountable for who I am and what I do. But if you were to draw a contrast between me and other people or spirits, and call them good and me bad because I'm not afraid to admit my own shortcomings, then I would say you don't know what you're talking about. In my mind, honesty is a critical step towards redemption, I can't be redeemed if I can't admit what I am. (I typed omit instead of admit, that's probably true to an extent also.)

It doesn't seem that you understood what I mean when I said that you have a relationship with an individual and collective thought about Jesus Christ as much as with Jesus Christ. If you did, I don't think you'd make the distinction you make about angels. The 'thought' has real power, and almost something like an identity. But maybe that's not a point I'm going to get across.

This goes off topic, so if you want to continue, I think we should start another thread or send private messages. Or we can leave it alone, I'm not asking you to agree with me, just to hear something of what I have to say one time.

You are a Vivaldi fan? His music hasn't clicked with me, but I might like Bach as much as all other music put together.

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damn you talk allot of sense - will you be MY dream guide :D lol!

Well I'm finding that my problems are being slowly solved by prayer and communication in waking life. However, I still think it will be beneficial to work on this stuff.

I'm sorry I don't follow. Do you even read the bible? because it makes pretty clear distinctions about Who jesus was. He was God's son, yes but he also is a personification of god in the flesh. He did so in at the current times to make a new covenant. That's a primary fundamental belief of what a christian believes in. as for what good and evil spirits or angels are. the Bible makes pretty clear distinctions of their characteristics, sites many story by story examples, and provides many tests for discernment, one of which i gave in and above post. I don't appreciate you calling me judgemental against people with a certain belief just because i shared my story and some of the conclusions i have drawn. my only intention was to help someone, not judge them. I'm not judging anyone. i have no idea whether you are possessed or not, i really don't care. I'm a bit peeved that you jumped all over my post and made a bunch of unwarranted assumptions just because i mentioned I'm a christian.

I also don't like you implying that I'm a moron because I "just don't understand things," and you think "i only see things in black and white." my day to day life is a struggle with all sorts of sinful (for lack of a better term) and good things about myself, there's a lot in between so i am well admitted in my own shortcomings. The only difference now is that i have a strong desire to improve myself and my life. So I'm not thinking i am sitting up on a high place judging you or anyone. All i did was share my story and belief, YOU are the one who came in here and blew my post way out of proportion so my initial reaction to your post was that you were judging me.

you mention christian, your corrupt christian friends and Jesus a lot. but a lot of what you said contradicts what beliefs make a christian a christian. You said you don't believe Jesus was God. Does that make you more untrustworthy? Does that make me judge anyone who says that per se? No, not really, There are many really cool and good non christians out there. but does that Make you a Christian who has a relationship with Jesus Christ? I would say no. in John 1:1 the word was god in john 1:14 the word became flesh which came to dwell among us. So we have the Word which is God, then the Word becomes flesh. The flesh is Jesus, the flesh is God, Jesus Is God in the flesh. Jesus is even quoted as saying “I and My Father are one.” It was this attitude which angered the Jews which ultimately led to him being crucified in the story. The people who still believed he was god are those who became known as christians. It was their belief that Jesus was god was the thing that separated them from jews and other religions of the time. That's one of the number 1 things that makes a christian a christian is the belief that Jesus is God. so your initial assumption that i get my attitude towards jesus from other people is wrong. I get it from the bible, yes other people wrote it, but it is supposed to be His word.

as for my attitude towards fallen angels or other people's spirit guides. Jesus cast out a demon speaking through a false prophet while he walked with one of his disciples through town. He also gave the same power to all of his followers to do the same. in my own example i stopped a psychic from channeling a fallen angel, just by reciting a prayer in my head. so that alone tells me what has value and what has not.As a christian i am kind of obligated to do such deeds. so I'm sorry if my attitude towards Jesus and other spirit guides may depress or offend you I"m sure you'll get over it in time. . As for me. I'm done here with this thread.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

I'm sorry I don't follow.

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I think the fault has been largely mine. I communicated poorly, maybe especially in my second post, and also have a knack for inadvertently pushing people's buttons in a counterproductive manner.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

I don't appreciate you calling me judgemental against people with a certain belief

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That was not the thrust of my criticism. I am sorry I gave that impression, but that was never my thought. I did not feel you were judging me as a human being, or other people.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

I'm a bit peeved that you jumped all over my post and made a bunch of unwarranted assumptions just because i mentioned I'm a christian.

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The only assumption I made is that you regard the spirit world as being dividable into 'heavenly' and 'fallen' categories. If that assumption is wrong then I apologize, but from everything you've said so far that assumption seems to stand. Yes I'm well acquainted with the Bible. No, my response was definitely not due to your mentioning you're a Christian.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

I also don't like you implying that I'm a moron because I "just don't understand things," and you think "i only see things in black and white."

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I don't think you're a moron, I said more than once I agreed with most of what you said. Clearly you don't understand who I am and what I know and have experienced, but this doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your intelligence, it just means that you're not me. People are different. Yes you seem to have views about God and fallen angels that are black and white relative to mine. That fact doesn't make your view wrong and mine right, since often black and white distinctions are appropriate. But black-and-white does seem to be a fair characterization on the point that I was speaking about. To reiterate, I was talking about your perception of the spirit world, not the physical or human world, and my various human world examples were primarily for the sake of analogy. I don't care if you think I'm demon possessed either. I do care about the effect your apparent philosophical outlook has historically had on demons though, because I care about them in much the same way that I care about animals and about other people. I have no quarrel with people judging spirit guides or casting them out: dangerous animals or outlaws also sometimes need driven away, imprisoned, or even killed. But animals or criminals can still be mistreated and harmed, and deserve some degree of respect and compassion. Likewise with demons.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

All i did was share my story and belief, YOU are the one who came in here and blew my post way out of proportion so my initial reaction to your post was that you were judging me.

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I think your perception here doesn't match up well with what I actually said. I started by saying that I was glad for you about your direction (that includes your story and belief, and I don't say that sort of thing unless I mean it). I said that I agreed with the main part of your characterization of New Age beliefs and spirit guides. Then I described a point of criticism, then finished up by saying that my point, while important to me personally, is mostly beside your main point, and possibly not worth other people's time anyway.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

so your initial assumption that i get my attitude towards jesus from other people is wrong. I get it from the bible, yes other people wrote it, but it is supposed to be His word.

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As you know, there is considerable disagreement among Christians about various subtleties of Biblical interpretation, and even on the major areas of general agreement there are usually at least some Christians who believe differently. If you think its possible for anyone to read the Bible or think about Jesus without other people's interpretations of dogma or thoughts about Jesus having any psychic interaction with their perception whatsoever, then one of us is wrong about how the mind works. I stand by my assumption, such as it was. I did not assume that you get the major part of your attitude from other people.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

As a christian i am kind of obligated to do such deeds.

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I respect that you have to do what you see to be the right thing.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

so I'm sorry if my attitude towards Jesus and other spirit guides may depress or offend you I"m sure you'll get over it in time.

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This comment seems to show that you do not have the same kind of respect for my obligations, that you hold my love and my moral perspective in disregard.

But you can't respect what you can't see, and as I said I'm aware that I've done a poor job communicating.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

As for me. I'm done here with this thread.

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Offended by my suggestion that there are things you don't understand, while uninterested in understanding my perspective and experience which you do not understand.

OK. Like I said at the beginning, it wasn't your experience and path that I was concerned with anyway, it was the logic of your perspective on fallen angels, and I can address that elsewhere. I wish you the best in your faith journey in any case.

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Originally Posted by Man of Shred

As for me. I'm done here with this thread.

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It's a shame that the discussion had to end so abruptly, and that you were offended so easily. Honestly, it pains me to see you like this mate, I have been following your threads and journal on and off for a few years and have always been interested in reading about the experiences you have related to the board.

It seems to me, just in general, that we have a tendency to find a belief system that works for us and hold onto it with such a grip that any other viewpoint starts to become invalid. It it the human condition to do this - which is why we have so many organised religions, and so many... 'disagreements' . Even New age ideas get set in stone because it is just so difficult to remain open. We thrive on structure because we need to understand, but to understand does not necessarily mean we cannot adapt an idea. I believe we can ALL learn from one another, whatever our viewpoint or belief is - as long as we remain open.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I do care about the effect your apparent philosophical outlook has historically had on demons though, because I care about them in much the same way that I care about animals and about other people. I have no quarrel with people judging spirit guides or casting them out: dangerous animals or outlaws also sometimes need driven away, imprisoned, or even killed. But animals or criminals can still be mistreated and harmed, and deserve some degree of respect and compassion. Likewise with demons.

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I would be very interested in hearing more about your viewpoint in regards to Demons: How would you describe a demon? Does it differ from the christian view? I also get why we should love all aspects of ourselves - but why demons?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by floatinghead

I would be very interested in hearing more about your viewpoint in regards to Demons: How would you describe a demon? Does it differ from the christian view? I also get why we should love all aspects of ourselves - but why demons?

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I'm continuing in the 'thinking outside the box' thread, to avoid hijacking this thread any longer.

Thanks for your compliments and encouragement by the way.