Personally, I have only ever had lucid dreams, not astral projections. But, I had a friend tell me that it can be dangerous and you can seriously mess with your astral body, even causing things such as schizophrenia. Is this true?
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Personally, I have only ever had lucid dreams, not astral projections. But, I had a friend tell me that it can be dangerous and you can seriously mess with your astral body, even causing things such as schizophrenia. Is this true?
I subscribe to the idea that they are one if the same. So technically your astral projecting every night u go 2 sleep. How ever astral projection can resemble your waking states so its easier to figure out what's actually happening almost immediately. Dreams can pale in comparison to what u actually witness while your awake but that doesn't mean your not projecting. So IMHO no astral projection is not dangerous on the strength that you naturally do so every night wether your lucid of it or not. Namaste.
My opinion is that long term cultivation of the ability to astral project is probably unhealthy, but its not something to be afraid to experiment with a few times, or to freak out about if it happens by accident. I agree its technically a lucid dream, but the experiences I had with it were a remarkably strong dissociation between where my body was and where I felt it to be, notably different from other lucid dreams. What I call OBE is more like other lucid dreams. What I'm calling astral projection is more tactile. OBE is more of a transfer of one's first person perspective to what would normally be an imagined third person perspective. In my 'OBE' experiences my perspective is out of body, there's no awareness of an astral body.
Some theosophists think it leads to demon possession and insanity, which may be a source of people's thoughts about that, along with the general antipathy of all theologians towards anything they can't do. I think its certain though that the practice of astral projection doesn't lead to liberation, that it does not strengthen your 'astral' body or develop true independence from your physical body. I think your astral body, such as it is, develops well when acting in harmony with your physical body, without trying to separate it. I don't think the 'astral body' is real in quite the way that a lot of people imagine it is though. Tentatively, I doubt that its made of exotic matter, and if it is, its definitely not made out of matter 'at a higher vibrational frequency'.
Generally speaking, I think that all dissociation is unhealthy. Your physical body is the primary point through which you contact and act on the physical world and receive impressions. If you develop your imagination too much independent of your physical life, it makes it harder to face and deal with what is yours to deal with, because there's a tendency to squirm away emotionally and hide in your mind when things get difficult. A lot of people do this with drugs for instance, but people with a developed inner life do it without drugs.
It seems to me likely that if you listen to different perspectives with an open mind, while understanding that what you feel inside of yourself is also influenced by other people, then you can make the best choice for yourself.
In the Western Esoteric Tradition astral projection is highly praised, and unreservedly recommended. In older times it came with a warning, that if the link (the "silver chord") between your physical body and the astral body got severed, then you would physically die. This was scaremongering though, done to keep astral projection amongst the initiated (the chord is supposedly immensely sturdy). Nowadays, esotericists heartily recommend astral projection.
My own view is virtually the opposite of shadowofwinds: getting away from your physical body is good for you - too much lingering around in the physical will drain your energy away from the important stuff: thinking, contemplating, meditating, understanding.
Schizophrenia is caused by malfunction in the physical brain - it seems generally to come about if the dopamine levels are too high. Astral projection (if it is real) might actually help bringing these levels down again (as might dreaming).
Given that they have been that dishonest, about the 'silver chord', I don't care what they heartily recommend. Their tradition is so deeply corrupt that it can't be trusted for anything. Your view is of course informed by different experiences than mine though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldmer
I think that you can not think and understand effectively without the physical, it depends on it even if the dependence may not be obvious depending on what questions you ask. Your intuition works better if you're more 'away' from the physical, but it also limits how you interpret what you intuit. Its kind of a positive feedback dynamic, where if you spend a lot of time 'away' its harder to see why this matters. But physical events tend to point to why it matters so long as you regard them as a form of evidence. This is a criticism I have of eastern teachings that say that definite knowledge can be obtained on any subject by contemplation. That kind of contemplation doesn't show what can't be known this way, so if you make an axiom of it you work to make yourself nuts. Your descent is limited mainly by your laziness and hypocrisy, which in this regard act as blessings.
Probably we're talking past each other to some extent though, and see this in at least partially the same way, even if its not obvious from the words we are using.
Wow... I'm "cultivating" OBE for nearly 30 years, and I don't plan to end it... My OBE doesn't equal LD. LD has other feeling, other mindset, other type of thought... many thing are different. I have problems with inducing LD because of this. Well, if I have to chose, I would take OBE(astral, mental, budhic, and other dimension projection) over LD anytime. Outside of my body I feel more real, more alive, then in real world. LD could be interesting... but that is only imagined world.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowofwind
No, OBE is NOT DANGEROUS. Dangerous is your mindset. If you are told there to do harm to someone and you do it because you were told, then it is dangerous. But that is not different from what you can do, if you are told to do the same in this reality. I didn't detect any problems, any attempts to posses my body, nor I don't think I would complain... Because my spirit wouldn't be possessed. I'm not my body. I only have body. If there would be such occurrence I see two possible outcomes- I would left my body for good(on my own will)... Or I will take it back. Movies such as Exorcist, or Constantine... are making very bad light and impressions. I don't know why people thinks so darkly- Everything is dangerous... there are horrors just beyond reach... don't touch... :doh::holyshit:
I never saw silver cord. Or felt. But if there is such thing, I don't believe it could be damaged. Or disconnected.
And I don't believe that there is possibility to develop psychological condition from OBE. I believe that you are more likely to develop some condition in physical body. When I'm in astral I'm concentrated. I am. Only there and at that time. There is possibility of time travel but you are there and at that time. Whether it is in past or in future. It doesn't matter. there is only here and now. You feel it. You don't think with thoughts similar to thoughts normally used in real world. I know I'm probably confusing... I can't explain it fully even in my mother language.
There are no limits other than limits of what your concentration level allows.
^^ Well, after 30 years, Psionik, you could be insane -- or someone else altogether -- and simply not know it! ;)
Just kidding, of course! Right?
I couldn't help but notice one bit in your thread, Psionik, that might explain your difference with Shadowofwind's thoughts: You confirm that, though you've left your physical body, there is no actual dissociation because you retain your identity, your "Self." You must have thought the phrase "I'm not my body. I only have body," was important, because you set it in bold for us. I think you're right, if perhaps for a different reason.
Yes, Shadowofwind, consistent dissociation from our physical bodies, from our true roots in reality, as it were, could be a bad thing. But what if a traveler were able to bring the essence of that body along with him on his journeys? In other words, astrally travel with the knowledge that "I'm not my body. I only have body?" That seems a healthy condition to me, if you can maintain it.
I just want to recommend this interview with Graham Nicholls on Navigating The Out-Of-Body Experience. He got some great knowledge about this subject, and many years experience to!
Graham Nicholls on Navigating The Out-Of-Body Experience - YouTube
The interview is made by Bob Olson, a former private detective. He got some really interesting other interviews about near-death-experience etc. He seems like a legit guy, so that's why I warmly recommend checking out his channel on youtube. Enjoy:)
I know :D Sometimes I ask myself whether I'm normal, but it is hard to answer it myself :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
I dissociate from body, not from myself. How could I do that? If something I feel more whole then in physical reality. Even if perception of reality is greatly changed, even if thought process changes too, I am ME :) Crazy english- sometimes I don't understand what I'm writing, it is like it has to be written this way :) Dictionary offers: I'm per se. :) And yes it is important. It is cornerstone of what I learnt after great many OBEs. It isn't something to fear as some people are thinking. Even if nothing of what I experienced is real, I lost fear of my body demise because for me existence without body is real enough... But I didn't lost self preservation. I will not be dead till my time comes.
A few quick points:
An astral body is still a body of sorts. So astral travel does not involve distinguishing one's "self" from the body. Recognizing this, jnana yoga and other similar traditions generally regard astral projection as a detour from "the path". I'm not agreeing with them about their "path", I'm just pointing out that the body/spirit dichotomy has multiple layers to it, and that "astral" is a layer pretty close to the physical body, so to speak.
Elsewhere I've distinguished between astral projection and out-of-body. If I'm projecting my tactile sense, I call it astral projection, and if I'm projecting my sense of perspective, I call it OBE. Other variations are possible though depending on how one qualifies one's attention. I don't regard any of these as my "Self", and I'm skeptical of the whole "distinguishing one's self from the body" approach, having practiced that for a few years and having reached a different conclusion than the traditional dogmas. I'm generally skeptical of "detachment" for the same reason, but I haven't said anything about that yet because I think my off-the-cuff criticisms wouldn't be fairly applicable to what Psionik is doing.
Obviously Psionik has a lot more experience with astral travel than I do. So although I might at some point have some hopefully constructive criticism about how he's interpreting his experiences, I think its reasonable for him to pursue it and recommend it to other people if it seems to be working for him. I'm not arrogantly stupid enough to think that I know what's best for everyone else, I just share what I see based on my experience.
I'll reiterate something that I've argued with people about before though: those of us who advocate meditative or astral practices need to be open about our physical, emotional, and mental health issues. We shouldn't hide stuff because we've decided its not relevant. Other people deserve a chance to decide that for themselves. When we're sharing knowledge on intimately personal subjects, honesty forces us to give up a lot of privacy, lest we mislead by omission. Though its true that being all timid and paranoid isn't healthy, it is possible to do harm with this sort of thing, just as it is possible to harm oneself with drug experimentation.
Body of sorts- yes of course. About half of time I have more or less similar body to real, other half of time I don't have visible body, only feel it. (and I'm at the same time more or less capable to feel also physical body lying in my bed) . A few times, my body was sun like ball of fire. Once or twice I had wings consisting of fire...
Why would I have to identify myself as vessel of mind, and not mind itself? Even in astral body I'm not identifying myself as that body(if I see it)... But as ME(that thing of me which is feeling its own consciousness, existence.)
You are projecting only tactile sense? No vision there? Yes, I start with tactile sensory input, but visual input comes usualy relatively close after tactile. For me OBE means all od the non dreaming experiences(I feel I'm not dreaming) And from differences in thought process, in type concentration, feelings from surrounding... I can differentiate dimensions I projected into. I was capable to recognise astral, mental and budhic dimension- from description on internet. There are others, but I wasn't capable to project to them till now.
Starting with visual content(with help of visualization) I'm doing LD
Of course, what I feel is right after nearly 30 years of experiments, but this doesn't need to be true. Maybe your findings are right and my wrong. We must remember that we can't proof this objectively :) My interpretation were changing firstly fast, then slower... and I tend to stay on current interpretation nearly 10 years. They will change if I would have contradictory facts.
I can only tell what I experienced... And I tend to be skeptic about things I found to be subjective and product of imagination. As I wrote, I'm trying hard to stay away from imagination in my experiments, because otherwise feeling of astral starts to change into more dream like feeling, feeling of existence slowly changing...
But then, there is subconscious mind. I doubt I can prove or disprove its input in whole experience. Either OBE is real thing and I travel, explore and learn from it, or it is imaginary thing from my subconsciousness and then it is only different kind of lucid dream. And I have to have some nearly exact vision of future in it too. A few of them were very close to reality after more than 15 years before they come true. I would have doubts about visions dealing with past. They could be false, constructed of memories, history books, or my own experiences from past.
False dichotomy I think. The vessel vs essence-in-vessel distinction only seems to work if you don't look at it too closely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
I think that at the moment you're thinking of yourself as ME, you're not fully aware of its interdependence on the body because you're not thinking about that. I also think that the interdependence is not something that is easily shown by in-the-moment-experience-and-intuition, and this is a weakness of that kind of thinking. I think that spirits are dependent on bodies also, just not particular bodies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
I don't think that thought or any kind of picture or sound imagination or memory is possible without some kind of matter. Its pretty much in the definition of what matter is. So always mind is also a body of some sort, even if that body consists of other people's thoughts or something exotic like that. And even though 'body' isn't a completely concrete thing either, and always has an element of freedom or absence of definition to it.
I think that some of this stuff can be known objectively, at least to some extent. For instance, it is possible to objectively prove shared dreaming or dream premonition are possible, and it is possible to prove it to other people.
I think something to be attentive to is the extent that other people's thoughts influence your experience of what 'astral' is. Floatinghead experienced this in relation to the moon, but I think it also applies to more fundamental things like the experience of different bodies and planes. It seems that most people tend to assume that if an experience comes to them internally without dependence on memory or external exposure to other people's ideas then it must be authentic, but this isn't the case in my experience.
In any case, I don't mean to denigrate your experience, I'm sure you know a lot that I don't. This is just a little of what I see, in hopes that it might be helpful.
I've projected vision and hearing along with tactile sense, but also vision without tactile sense.
Well, we could discus forever about mind(soul) dependency of body(be it physical, astral, others.) And since english isn't my first language, it is possible, that I don't understand nuances of what you are trying to say :(
My opinion is we(as soul, mind etc) only need physical body for interaction with physical world. I see brain as antenna for soul to be capable to control body, and to see(feel, hear) exactly what happens around it. Our soul has grown used to control it exactly... and every body has it own distinctiveness so no other soul can use it effectively. Other thing is, I think that we used to be very material, too oriented on physical world. We tend to feel, that we need body even if it is unnecessary. Therefore our subconsciousness creates kind of vessel in astral too. I found, that my astral body is simpler, then physical one... and it grows more simple as observer state(and detachment) grows stronger. Eventually there is no visible body, and I can touch things in higher dimensions without it... One could polemize, I only don't see my higher body, but it is there. That is possibility I could take. And what about point like body(or sometimes small ball of energy) with spherical view of surrounding?
I understand and I see by myself how are thoughts changing higher reality. Sometimes I feel silly about my attempts to understand it. But at the same time I can't let it go and only accept it as it is. In physical dimension we need use body to express our soul. In higher dimension we use our mind (consciousness and subconsciousness)
Also for definition, I tend to see mind as soul(at least partially) and differentiate it to conscious and subconscious part. The bigger part is conscious the smaller remains subconscious. To be fully conscious(subconscious part turned into conscious) means to me that soul and mind are the same thing. Other people may see it different. I don't have problem with it.
If animals have souls, it could be that unconscious part of their mind is overwhelmingly large. Their brains are not built to express nuances of soul expressions in such detailed way as human brain.
I am not angry about your different believes nor I feel any animosity. This is forum. To discuss our thoughts, experiences... And I'm here also for other view, different opinions on what I subjectively understand. It can, but it doesn't need change my perspective... You have different approach, and therefore other set of experiences. Maybe my way is bad. But it is my own way. I built it myself, it became integrated to my life philosophy.
Psionik: You said earlier that you don't want to be deluded. That is a strong desire I have also. Just thought I'd mention that we have that in common.
In addition to being an antenna, the brain also encodes very complex interrelationships. I don't think that for us there is structured thought without that. Demons think without having their own bodies, apparently, but I think they use ours, renting time in the subconscious part of our minds, so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
As a thought experiment, suppose your soul didn't come back to your own body. What would that mean? It seems to me that I don't come back to my own body, that I'm not tied to my body. But the personal thoughts that are a part of the brain are a part of the body. So that experience stays with the same body. In other words, its not that the soul comes back to the body because of its affinity for that particular body, its that everything that seems to be attached to the body is actually the body. I guess I can't be certain there isn't some 'soul' information stored somewhere other than in the body, but this is how I experience it. This doesn't mean that 'I' die when my body dies though. There is interaction between my body and other bodies even while I live. Dying would be like losing one part of a hologram. Maybe it loses a little bit of fidelity, but all the important things I care about continue elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
I disagree with this I think. What people call 'spiritual' seems to me to be much the same has how I see the 'material' world. Thoughts have structure, memory, as does matter. There is freedom in thought, but there is freedom in matter also. Objects are only isolated and solid as an approximation, the physical world isn't really like that either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
My experience has also been that 'spiritual' people who are less attached to 'material' things are also generally as selfish and dishonest as people who are more sense-bound. To my taste, the world doesn't suffer from a lack of spirituality, it has another kind of problem. If people were more 'spiritual', they'd mostly use it for creating even more exotic ways to screw each other over. One sees this with money, as an example. Money is less 'material' than bartering, its an idea. Yet the more abstract people's dealings with money become, the better they become at using it to exploit other people from a distance. Religious understanding and magnetism is like that too. To use an analogy I've used before, if the world is like a prison, most 'spiritual' people are trying to find a way to bring the perks of their gangster outside life into the prison, or find a way of breaking out, instead of repenting from the kind of thinking that got them into prison to start with.
I think its worth remembering that what you experience as your body is not your body, its a mental representation of your body. When we manipulate that mental representation independently of what comes in through our senses we call that 'astral', but its still a mental model in both cases. I don't think its possible to understand this and view the 'astral' in the same way, it makes a huge difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
I rarely project a body at all when I dream. Half the time I don't even project a visual perspective. But its still all in my mind. I'm not saying that the physical world is in our minds, though that's a separate topic. I'm saying that a mental experience is a mental experience that is only indirectly related to the physical world, even though this is so habitual that most people don't recognize it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
This seems to imply a different thought than mine of what a body is. You physical body is there on the bed. The 'astral' body, so far as I know, isn't anything, its sort of a ghost of the physical body. Almost by definition, if it has a location in space its a physical body. It doesn't make sense to imagine something having a form in space unless its interacting with other things in space in a way that's directly related to that form. It makes not sense to hypothesize the existence of an invisible body unless its doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
As I've mentioned previously, I think that the objectively paranormal aspects of our 'astral' are not directly related to the 'astral' experience. We get information about remote objects through some kind of non-local interaction, but I don't think we're doing that 'astrally', I think the astral experience is how we metaphorically represent that process to ourselves.
I had a dream once where I could see from many directions at once. This wasn't like having eyes in several places, it was more like a tactile feeling of presence, except seeing instead of feeling. This kind of thing makes no sense as a perspective from any kind of body. But I still think that the experience depends on the body that is lying there on the bed, just as all of my other experiences do. Even the experiences that seem to be in other people's minds depend on my body for memory, if I can think about them later in that context.
As I experience it our 'astral' intuitions are reflections of the physical world, but also show aspects of how destiny flows from the present. There seem to be interactions with other physical worlds besides ours, but I haven't seen anything yet to make me think that there are 'higher' worlds besides that. It all seems like a vast machine of idea-like interactions to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
My subconscious part is definitely a lot larger than the conscious part. I hope yours is too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
I'm pretty close to 100% certain that animals have souls in pretty much the same way that people have souls, even though we're a lot smarter than they are. I think the only people who believe that animals don't have souls are people who want to feel good about trapping or eating them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
I think we have less personal ownership of the philosophies we seem to have developed than is often assumed. The muses that work through us work through a lot of other people also, and the conscious thoughts are only a very superficial summary. But I'm with you on thinking through things and experimenting instead of just regurgitating stuff from books.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
I think that those of us who value not being deluded have to give up our life philosophies when the time comes, even though we've invested a lot in them. Usually we can salvage something important. In my case, I had to throw almost all the ideas away once or twice and start from scratch. And I'm still looking for a basic description of 'astral' that makes any sense to me.
Astral traveling can be a little bit dangerous. If you leave your human body for too long you weaken your silver cord, which is a sign for demons to posses your body, and the only way you can get rid of them is by someone on earth performing and exorcism which can go extremely wrong. Astral traveling is occult practice which is massively forbidden by god.Witches and demons used to astral travel to gain pleasure such as sex, they would look for people, and in a way...Rape them,that's why some males and females would wake up having and orgasm.I would just stick to lucid dreaming, its safer and you don't leave your body, and its allowed by god.
Nope... I don't think entities could posses body, the difference is too large. Also, I don't have any cord. I haven't seen nor felt it. Some people report about it, but some people also report that even if OBE is possible, it isn't possible to travel far from body... some speaking about distances of meters to tenths of meters, some little further. The furthest place I traveled was into intergalactic space... hundreds of thousands light years. My brother traveled billions of light years away. He described feeling of veeeery fast movement and galaxies he passed very fast.
Sex in astral... I tried something, far in past, at beginnings, when I met some women there (a very rare event, because during my travels I'm rarely finding someone). Problem is that even if I'm traveling out of body, I also feel more or less also physical body. I maintain balance of feelings. Sex makes physical body agitated. The balance is therefore hard to maintain. If I have to give into sex, I lose balance, detachment... and travel ends shortly- something I never wanted. Observer state, detachment, as pure being as possible is much better feeling than orgasm :D (The same by lucid dreaming, but in LD I have more leeway in disposal so more action is possible. Again I didn't do that for long time, because I want as long experiences as possible.) There is also that... People, I find in astral, tend to be not quite there... they looked as if they don't comprehend surrounding fully... as if they aren't fully conscious. I often think, that there are many levels of astral,and one must tune to the same level to understand and see why they are doing things they do. Theories :) To make sex with someone, it looks like you are trying to make love with indifferent entity (woman for example) It is possible, but reaction of partner is lethargic. In LD not so :) But then, LD is a dream, it is a fantasy.
Why would demon or something like to mate with human? It is maybe comparable of human being mated with some animal or something. If something, I found entities have fear of me. At least darker ones (on rare occasion I find some) Even when I traveled to hell the devils feared me and ran away. They don't like state of mind I use by travels.
We can do everything god(gods, spirits or something) allowed us. We can't do things for which we have no capabilities. If travel is possible, then it is allowed. Only complains I ever heard were from rigid fundamentalist... for them free thinking seems to be also great sin. Beware people who want to tell you what is good for you and dismiss your way. They are sinning against free will and against truth.
I also have experiences AT for at least 30+ years and I have to agree with Psionik whole heartedly.
Its not harmful. It is impressively euphoric. It has never lead to an unhealthy obsession of disassociating my physical lifestyle. My personal experience of course.
Looke (: