Thread: "Dream Demons"

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

i rather discuss these things with people who i know have an open mind cus usually people tend to feel alarmed when i mention the supernatural. People will immediately jump to conclusions if i mention psychedelics are in play here. >_<

Yeah, people freak out, they're afraid you're opening the gates of hell and unleashing a demonic apocalypse.

I guess you've seen that I'm against psychedelic use, for reasons I've explained at length elsewhere. So much so that I'd rather not know about supernatural stuff than learn about it that way. This puts me in a little bit of a quandary because I want any experiential knowledge you have which I lack, but I don't want to be a hypocrite about where it came from. And since most of my knowledge is gained empathetically, I actually don't know how much I'm dependent on drug users for my own meditative experiences anyway, it could be significant. I hope that I haven't been too much of an asshole about this, and hope that we can just disagree where we disagree and respect each other as human beings. I try to adequately respect what you do know and who you are, even though I can't completely reconcile that goal with my other values. Sometimes there's just conflict inherent in the differences in our perspectives, we can't do anything about it.

In any case, if anyone doubts your experience on account of your being high when you have it, or because you don't have a rigorously scientific mindset, you can point to people like me who took a more skeptical, sober approach and learned many of the same things.

I've started some threads on demons in the past. Didn't always get a lot of responses.

Originally Posted by kadie

So the bottom line IS?

I think the bottom line is that the witch had something useful to say, and several people suggested useful adjustments to make moving forward. Everyone generally agreed on what that message is and how to respond to it, with differences in emphasis.

As I see it, any other conclusions about what is or isn't a demon or internal or external or a part of one's self depend on simplified ideas about what all those things mean. And there won't be agreement there. Multiple people made valid points, but nothing is settled because nobody here has a deep and broad enough standpoint to accommodate everyone else's experience. As I see it, few of the apparent dichotomies are actually either-or kinds of things, we have been speaking half-truths. In my case, for example, the 'demon' concept is obviously inadequate to describe the witch, but I use the word because it adds something that I'm pretty sure is there and which is omitted if we assume that the individual dreamer was responsible for everything.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Yeah, people freak out, they're afraid you're opening the gates of hell and unleashing a demonic apocalypse.

I guess you've seen that I'm against psychedelic use, for reasons I've explained at length elsewhere. So much so that I'd rather not know about supernatural stuff than learn about it that way. This puts me in a little bit of a quandary because I want any experiential knowledge you have which I lack, but I don't want to be a hypocrite about where it came from. And since most of my knowledge is gained empathetically, I actually don't know how much I'm dependent on drug users for my own meditative experiences anyway, it could be significant. I hope that I haven't been too much of an asshole about this, and hope that we can just disagree where we disagree and respect each other as human beings. I try to adequately respect what you do know and who you are, even though I can't completely reconcile that goal with my other values. Sometimes there's just conflict inherent in the differences in our perspectives, we can't do anything about it.

In any case, if anyone doubts your experience on account of your being high when you have it, or because you don't have a rigorously scientific mindset, you can point to people like me who took a more skeptical, sober approach and learned many of the same things.

I've started some threads on demons in the past. Didn't always get a lot of responses.

You'd be suprised how much i agree with you. I never took offense at you although i have felt harsh feelings in my heart when i have tried to assess your prescence. But i never felt those feelings aren't able to be reconciled. I treasure differences and thrive on them whilist trying to find a middle way in which both parties are able to be transformed. I can not ever agree to disagree for to my mind there is only truth. I would only agree to disagree if i sense communication from the other party is biased and misunderstanding is based on a closed-minded attitude. Usually expressed by people i'm discussing with, but i'm sure i have my own ego biases to deal with.

The thing is that this demon of mine invaded my mind while on drugs but persisted to play a role in my dreams and imagination. I have personally linked these images to this demon but i must say it is much different from what is described sometimes as demons in lucid dreams. I'll make a short account of what happened and how i link these altered dream states to demon entities. I would fear no response at all would make me feel a little ridiculous but what the hell i don't care.

In te meanwhile i'm trying to conjure up a response to what Linkzelda has been saying but it is soo hard to get my thoughts into words. I agree with both Linkzelda but i see the truth and value in what LouiaB is saying as well, albeit she didn't prove anything, that i think is just ego projection. I believe when people speak their minds they speak the truth, the difficulty is conveying that truth into words and to be honest, not everyone seems to take the effort and time to consider if the words they present to another being is actually consistent with one's own thought-process in the ffirst place.

EDIT: Btw, i also have a viewpoint lingering around in which i try to assess a physical presence of demons and entities that i think you might find interesting. It is simply Force/friction. It hit me when i started correlating force with karma. People have known this for ages. I think the I-ching does a fine job in explaining fundementals of the universe with their ying and yang concept. The ying and yang is basically the equilevant to friction. Let me try to elaborate; When you have a balanced still-standing object you have 0 force. When it is affected one way you have either Negative or positive force. So you get ying or yang. Karma is basically the outcome of this force. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it, Apply positive force and you get good karma. Apply a LOT of positive force and you get even better karma.

The I-ching guys knew this and they came up with a method to explain karma. Atleast, i think so i haven't read the damn thing.

EDIT EDIT: Btw Shadow i didn't knew you where against psychedelic use. Coming from you, I actually respect that. It is just tiring when people resort to "You took a drug, it is not real" arguments without presenting any bias in reality aside from the Status quo belief that hallucinations are caused by the brain. Which is difficult to deny but doesn't explain the whole ordeal, science simply hasn't ventured far enough to understand what the brain actually does for consciousness.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

i have felt harsh feelings in my heart when i have tried to assess your prescence.

Yeah I have that effect on a lot of people! Not just you.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

The I-ching guys knew this and they came up with a method to explain karma. Atleast, i think so i haven't read the damn thing.

I've read in the hexagram half of the Wilhelm translation so many times I have it practically memorized, and its one of my favorite books. I think their five elements theory is mostly made up though.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

The thing is that this demon of mine invaded my mind while on drugs but persisted to play a role in my dreams and imagination.

Fairly briefly, since I must pack to move....When people experience a deja-vu moment, it seems that part of that is a felt recognition of the depth of interrelatedness of things. My 'demon', such as I have experienced it, is in many ways bigger and stronger than I am. But one of the things that's remarkable to me is the even greater power and intelligence that I glimpse through it. Its awe inspiring. Off topic maybe, but I just wanted to say that.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

No. Though certainly that is a part of it.



I think your comments here are mostly conjecture, generally consistent with but not actually supported by what is known scientifically. You can't necessarily trust other people's claims, since other people may be delusional or lying. So you must believe what seems reasonable to you based on your knowledge and experience. Or you believe what you want to. But your view is sharply inconsistent with what some other people know from their own experience, and the argument you make has been addressed at length elsewhere.

You're also guessing about what other people mean by demons, and there's no way for you to guess correctly without more information. I use the word demon because its the best word I have, but its probably not very close to what you're thinking, which appears to be mostly a straw-man. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time to go over this from the start again, I move tomorrow and start a new job on Monday.

A relaxed person's mind is like a high-gain antenna, it doesn't take much of a perturbation to form an impression. And we know that perturbations occur, such as with quantum fluctuations. Though these fluctuations are often assumed to be perfectly random, there isn't actually anything in our theories that tell us this, the question is outside of our mathematical models.

In order to conclude that "there has never been an electrochemical message from an unknown source", you'd have to understand how it might work well enough to look for it, and you'd have find time and funding to look for it. But for a variety of reasons which we've discussed at length in other threads, nobody has been doing that. One obstacle is that it is not a message in quite the same sense as something communicated in a vibration or radio signal, so before constructing an experiment you'd have to understand better what it is that people are talking about when they speak of demons. Not everybody who believes in demons has thought these questions through very far, but a few have.

I agree that the demon would have to be at least partially in this realm and able to interact with us physically, in ways that don't involve dreams. But in my experience they do that also. Its usually subtle. A human being has a persistent body with a brain and hands for interacting locally with other objects. A demon can move and act parasitically through many bodies, but has a much more limited ability to 'cause' large-scale effects through direct application of force. By way of analogy, when a current moves through a wire, the electrons are traveling a much shorter distance than the signal moves through them. A demon is more like that than it is like a 'being', but it also acts non-locally, so in some sense it is everywhere at once. Its true that we have almost no idea how something like that would work, since it is as far outside of our current physics theory as radio was a thousand years ago. But just because we don't understand something, and can't control it well enough to easily reproduce it in a lab setting, doesn't make it unreal.

As I see it, the existence of demons follows pretty much automatically from the existence of telepathy: one allows the existence of the other. It is possible to discover something about this for yourself, and if you are sincerely open to discover something new, and remember dreams easily, I can help you do that. Or, if you aren't interested in looking for the evidence, I think that's reasonable, but then you just have to accept being uninformed.

I'm not going to have much time to continue this conversation. There are many old threads going over and over this topic though, addressing at length any objection you're likely to come up with. So far you haven't said anything that we haven't seen many times before. Or you could argue with Sageous or someone else who was there for all of that, though I doubt they have much enthusiasm for it, particularly when at least half of skeptics on this site are mostly trolling and don't really care about discovery. WakingNomad's attitude towards this is shared to some extent by all of us: if you want to find out anything about demons, you'll find out by exploring it. And we can help with that, it doesn't take much time. Or if you think you already know what's worth knowing on the subject, and its not worth your time to peruse what we've already said, then you can go on thinking whatever you want to.

I am sure that with all the discoveries of allot of physical elements, we would have stumbled on the demons' limited effect on this realm, since we now know every atomic, subatomic till the smallest and rarest ones. And it wouldn't be hard to monitor a human brain while sleeping. I disagree that we cannot find the source of any electrochemical signal in the brain. So, demons effect us, but at the same time, don't exist at all in our realm. Telepathy, that's what it is. But, what are the elements of the telepathy? Especially that are between different realms? So, Telepathy between realms? or a nightmare created by the sub? I'd say the second.
Anyways, good luck with the moving and stuff

^^ At the risk of summoning a demon from Shakespeare:

Keep in mind, LouaiB, that there are far more things in heaven and earth that were ever dreamed of by your scientists.

Yes, science has found, labeled, and studied to some degree every particle and energy form that its laws dictate should be there, the Higgs bosun being the cap to it all.

But this is the stuff they are looking for.

There may be an entire category of energy that exists outside the current math, outside the current mechanical sensors (designed to detect stuff the math dictates, and no more), but well inside our human perceptions. Who knows? Our minds might be producing a perfectly novel form of energy with each thought we make. I call that thought energy, though the concept of "Prana" has been around for a very long time.

I am not talking about the electromagnetic energy produced by firing neurons, BTW. That energy has been studied and categorized extensively, and is pretty useless for explaining the existence and movements of demons. No, thought energy, should it exist, could be an energy form that exists outside of our current parameters for nature, mainly because it was formed from a source that also exists outside of nature by many measures -- sentience. So, though the things about thought energy have not yet been dreamed of by our scientists, they might be dreamed about by us every night. Thought energy -- or some other force currently undiscovered -- might be the vehicle on which demons ride.

So, yes, demons (and other visitors) might just be some high-end DC's created by our dreaming minds -- and I agree; they very likely are just that -- but just because science hasn't yet gotten around to uncovering it does not mean that another source doesn't exist...and through lucid dreaming's unique perspective, we might just be able to settle once and for all whether there is another source for all this stuff.

Sorry if this was too brief and unintentionally cryptic -- I have no time to write, as I must go out and get this damn snow off my drive, and can only stall so much.

I thought you all might find this clip interesting considering the thread and the arguments contained herein.The Science of Energy and Thought. Subconscious Mind Power

There are a few documented experiments around the middle of the video.

This is the perfect time for me to come out of the demon closet. I am a demon. They call me Rex Curson.

mhmm yeah because dream psychosis is legit, psychosis = loss of reality, dreams = not reality. it was more sarcasm than trolling, and I'm sure a person can have psychosis and have something real happen to them at the same time. eg someone suffering from psychosis gets punched in the face by a real person, yes it happened.

Kadie

Thank you for that interesting link about thoughts.

Originally Posted by kadie

I thought you all might find this clip interesting considering the thread and the arguments contained herein.

***

The Science of Energy and Thought. Subconscious Mind Power

***

There are a few documented experiments around the middle of the video.

I found in interesting so I went searching hoping there was a Youtube. Here it is

***

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeFu...e_gdata_player

***(10:10)

Under the Youtube reads:

Power of Thought - A Quantum Perspective
- By Kent Healy

ByKentHealyApr 12, 2009

891,876 views
5,925*likes,*
303*dislikes

A scientific approach to explaining the power of thought. We have all heard it before, "Your thoughts create your reality."

Well, new quantum physics studies support this idea.

Learn about recent research about how the mind can influence the behavior of subatomic particles and physical matter.

If you enjoy the video, please pass it on to friends and family.

Hmm. Well, when I go about my daily business I come across choices that I have to make. Sometimes before I make a choice I get that subconscious reminder of, "do the right thing." I always get this and sometimes it pisses me off because I don't want to make that choice, its sometimes so boring. However, when I make the wrong choice and go against my higher self, things tend to not go so well. When I saw your original post you were talking about destroying buildings and dream characters and my initial reaction to just reading that was... "uh oh.." So maybe the witch was trying to keep you in check because she knew what was best for you, as if trying to keep you from making decisions that could have an impact on your better being. IDK, it just always seems that I have something that is looking out for me and when it comes time to make a decision it reminds me to make the right one, and if I don't it let's me know I made the wrong choice. It doesn't let me forget. So maybe you could look at what happened like a good thing and now you know not to do things like that even if its in a dream world, maybe you thinking that it has no impact on you isn't so correct and the witch was reminding you of that. Anyways, great dream... another thought on this when I read it was that, "this almost feels like a novel and should be in a book!" Peace out.

That was exactly the way I saw it. Things just do translate right for me when typing it out. I prolly have a learning disability hah.

Funny thing, all the "another realm", "demons" and all these things are just stuff that we created. Even though we can't prove they don't exist, they don't because we created them as entertainment or something. I can tell you about a cow I saw that flew. You can't prove me right, but I am not right, because I created something irrational.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Even though we can't prove they don't exist, they don't because we created them as entertainment or something.

I don't know what ur trying to say LouiaB but here's what i'm reading:
"We can't really tell if spirits exist but because they are used in hollywood films i therefore conclude with 100% certainty that they do not exist. "

.. Like what..?

Is it not time to go to the senseless benter forum LouiaB because you stopped making a whole lot of sense here

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

"There's no way of knowing if they exist or not. But they don't" .. Like what..? Is it not time to go to the senseless benter forum LouiaB because you stopped making sense by now

Please, read the full post.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Please, read the full post.

Okay, i have read the full post. What changed?

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Okay, i have read the full post. What changed?

I'm sure you didn't understand what I meant.
Do you believe in fairy tails? They are stories fom our creation, but you can't say they don't exist. This is the same opinion regarding superstition believers.

You start by assuming superstition. And that we created it. And that it is fantasy.

Let me use your cow example and simply put your logic to the test.

If i say to you that i saw a cow flying through the air. can you then conclude that there was no cow? Would you send me to the insane Asylum? Or is there a chance the cow actually flew through the air? Perhaps by means of a catapult or fallen from an airplane.. It would be quite unfair if you had choosen to send me to the insane asylum if there was indeed a cow flying through the air.

I think your logic is based on a certain bias. This is most likely obscuring you from being absolutely rational

^^, A cow with wings

Meditate if you don't already and have the intention to rid yourself of this dark energy that lives with you. Dark energy can be born out of your own negative thoughts. It feeds on the fears, negative emotions, unhealthy habits, and dark thoughts/beliefs of the people they possess. The more you focus on this entity, the more it'll be around. Try to disregard it's existence in your waking life by not having any thoughts on it at all(good or bad).
Soleggio frequencies can also help you clear all this negativity. goggle solfeggio negative energy clearing and you can find some free mp3
protect yourself with dark crystals such as black obsidian..
Stay positive!

Yes, it is very important to try to avoid thinking of this problem during the day, especially negative thoughts. Meditation is indeed a great way to relax yourself and clear your mind.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Yes, it is very important to try to avoid thinking of this problem during the day, especially negative thoughts.

I think this is a lot like saying don't pick a scab, or lance a boil, or brush your teeth. Its good advice in moderation in appropriate circumstances. (Teeth brushing is bad after a carbonated drink.)

But if you follow it religiously, you'll turn into a spineless, ignorant, passive aggressive, fair weather friend, because all the nasty behavior will be driven into a form that gets past the 'no negative thoughts' filter. The demon won't actually starve from lack of conscious attention, its nature will just change according to the room you give it. And it will become even nastier, because being locked away in a dark closest is deforming. Lots of people have done this experiment over a period of many years, and that's how the outcome looks to me. Like I said, I think its good advice in moderation though.

Well, maybe it will work if the DC was only from a nightmare, so it might work, because you still can't say for sure that that dream was not a nightmare

Originally Posted by LouaiB

... because you still can't say for sure that that dream was not a nightmare

You can't? Isn't a nightmare by its nature of inducing real anxiety or terror a pretty easy thing to identify?