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    Thread: On The Nature of Shared Dreaming

    1. #76
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      Oh God... Why I'm not dead? I was in MRI and I felt nothing... !!! Maybe I'm dead! that's why I didn't felt nothing. I was dead in fraction of second!

      Iron in chemical molecules such as hemoglobine is nonmagnetic. It is only one atom per molecule.

    2. #77
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      Another observation....Shared dreaming is largely a matter of empathy. Get enough empathy to do it well enough to start finding some real answers, how do you handle being able to feel the suffering in the world, and feeling your relation to it and your part of the master mind it belongs to? I think we will have to make more progress with this issue before we can get much further figuring out technical details. Yes this comment is off-topic, but I think it comes up unavoidably. None of us have the knowledge to speculate on the original question in a non-farcical way while staying on topic.
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      In regard to the 3 types of people post by shadowifwind, I am also having adifficult time even accepting my own previously held beliefs on such matters. To me it just was. AT, OBE, RV, telapathy etc. It is all unknown to science, but experienced world wide among so many. .however I find snarky comments unnecessary afterall we are all fools until science says otherwise.

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      Sorry if my comments felt "snarky". I just have some sets of knowledge(I have PhD in inorganic chemistry and I'm working in research of ceramic(mainly) ) and even if I don't know enough about human biology to know this things for sure, I know at least basic and I know what I have to look for. Therefore if I'm believing in reality of OBE it is because of my own experiences. And because I know a little about biology and physic I must either look for nonphysical(that means immeasurable by today's means) reasons, or dismiss all of this as my imaginations and hallucinations. But what to think about things that came true after minutes to tens of years before they happened? If this is possible then also sharing of thoughts(through dreams, OBE, telepathy...) should be possible... Now... I too wrote off topic

    5. #80
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      Continuing with trying to figure out how the shared dreaming stuff works....

      I suggested that I move my sense of identity to partially include some aspect of the other person's identity. It seemed that these identities are defined by a collection of thoughts and feelings and memories, and that maybe the sharing is possible because the 'self' is the same beyond that. Now I'm not as sure about that. I've had dreams where I'm partially in or on the periphery of someone else's "house" of thoughts, and feeling uncomfortable about whether or not I belong there. I've also had dreams where I'm in a world of thoughts and resting in a place that doesn't at that moment belong to anyone, but its not really mine either. Its sort of like being in a big kaleidoscope-like sliding block puzzle of thoughts, with various selves being in temporarily in residence in particular parts of it, like hermit crabs. As times change, I have to move. Maybe I can't reconcile this experience with the idea of there being one undivided universal self, distinguished only by the thoughts. In other words, there's at least one more level of distinction between individuals, we have our own souls or something.

      Somewhat separately, last night I had an astral experience that seems to confirm that the 'astral' that I experience is not a 'parallel world' or 'different dimension' or 'higher plane'. Its an imaginative representation of my experience of this world. It can seem different than this world because of the way I'm emphasizing or distorting different aspects of this world. And this 'imaginative representation' is less rigidly constrained than a physical body, so for instance I might feel and relate things that are not physically connected to each other. This isn't to say that other people don't experience other actual physical worlds or dimensions or higher planes. But I think we're taking our best ideas about what such an experience can be and subconsciously building the experience around that. In other words, the ideas involve assumptions that are projected into the experience rather than being inherent it. I think my 'astral experiences' are in a different space in a figurative sense. But its not a scientifically undiscovered realm or dimension in nature. Its more like a radically different way of organizing our perception of what is already known, and that different understanding makes new powers and experiences possible. Probably this 'different organization' is facilitated by undiscovered properties of nature, but some of those are only indirectly revealed by the paranormal experience. I'm having trouble saying what I mean here.
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      Shadowofwind, are you sure you had an OBE last night?

      I'm not suggesting that during OBE I must be projecting into parallel dimension, astral dimension should be above of that. Time is creating parallel dimensions by dividing timelines by every action done or not done in all universe... but time is fourth dimension... and astral should be five dimensional dimension. Problem is interpretation of dimensions which we can't normally comprehend. I have feeling, that seeing of diffusiveness of things in my OBEs means something... Maybe as I look from astral point of view, I see probability of existence of things in the space-time continuum.
      My last projection a few days ago, I saw my wife with youngest child (Petra) on her lap and speaking with oldest one. I couldn't hear her but I saw her speaking. I tried to touch her and Petra but my hand went through them. (Everything I saw had diffuse borders... and it was as if I feel even that diffuse borders of things...) Then I went away through wall. Going through wall ended me being a some hundred kilometers away from my house. In reality my wife was doing what (I described her) I saw. It is the small things that makes reality of being out of body believable. Now, scientific part of my mind is telling me that it could be coincidence... I need much more of such experiences to draw conclusions.
      Now, mental dimension is different, it is for me as if disconnected from reality. Things are somewhat more substantial and sparkling... Air is sparkling too... everything there seems to be pristine. But again, I don't see there anything connected with my memory, or with any problems I have in physical reality. It is like world of its own.
      Last edited by Psionik; 02-11-2014 at 09:54 AM.
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    7. #82
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      From what I've seen, most English speaking physicists consider it misleading to regard time as a dimension, they say "ten spatial dimensions plus time" or similar. But it is crudely a degree of freedom which can in many contexts can be measured. I don't see that what you describe as astral is like that. You have three spatial dimensions, which you can represent a location in using three values. Now you add a fourth value for 'astral'. As you increase and decrease that value, this corresponds to what? In space, if I increase 'x' I'm moving in one direction, and if I decrease it I move the opposite way. What happens as you change your 'astral' value that describes your change in astral place? What are you measuring in the way a line can be measured? If you can describe this, then I can understand how it can be thought of as a dimension. Otherwise, I have to think its not a dimension, that you've been calling it a dimension without thinking about what that means.

      Yes of course my 'astral' experience may not capture everything that yours does. But the descriptions seem the same in essential ways, and even if my experience is deficient somehow, I think you can guess and point out what that is. I hope its clear that I'm not doubting that there's something 'real' and supernatural in your experience. I'm just questioning the 'fifth dimension' paradigm because I want to know what's really real. And if your astral experience contains something that mine lacks, which I think is probable, since we're different people, then maybe I can get you to examine that for me.
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      As I wrote, comprehension is the key. I have problem to grasp a picture of tesseract (four dimensional cube) Tesseract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... But sometimes I feel while in OBE something like time flow. It may be that I can't see four dimensionaly, But I feel somewhat that fourth dimension. It can be that that is an illusion. I have yet to learn conscious walk through time into future and take some information to confirm later in real time. Well also proofs for real time walking is so sparse that I can't say for 100% it is real thing. My little proofs are indications that there could be reality in OBE but I have no definite proofs. It is only enough to believe in it.

      I think, the key could be the detachment of mind... Could you describe your mind state while you are out of body, walking?

      I found a few weeks a song with video on youtube Schiller Feat - Maya Saban - I've Seen All. - YouTube first part of it may depict dream or lucid dream, there is feeling of passion, fear, desire... It could be also very low astral... but I can't function there with as strong emotions as I feel from the first part. Then when that woman opens door at 2:45 she goes to land very similar to what I perceive as mental dimension- pristine nature, everything is sparkling... Then there is a woman with very calm look... Look on her face... her eyes... it is as if I see myself walking. She holds in her hand a ball of fire, but it doesn't burn her- It is as if her emotion are that fire, but she is calm and observing. When I see this I feel similarity, I feel it related to me when I'm walking(traveling).
      Last edited by Psionik; 02-12-2014 at 05:45 PM.

    9. #84
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      Maybe we are all one organism and connected no matter what or when.

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      Maybe but very disorganized one.
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    11. #86
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      These things are fun to speculate on but we shouldn't pretend we're developing a scientific model. (Not saying you are Sageous but there is this temptation)

      If shared dreaming exists then my crackpot theory is that dreaming occurs in a different dimension independent of our three, and maybe independent of time as well. That would be cool, sharing dreams with people in the past and future
      Last edited by Whatsnext; 02-13-2014 at 01:35 AM.
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    12. #87
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      Quote Originally Posted by Whatsnext View Post
      These things are fun to speculate on but we shouldn't pretend we're developing a scientific model. (Not saying you are Sageous but there is this temptation)
      No, Whatsnext, I don't think we are pretending that here, by any measure... I personally wouldn't know the first thing about developing a scientific model, and would likely quickly doze off if someone else tried... no, this thread is purely about the fun of speculating -- and possibly gaining some insight toward the "how" of shared-dreaming.

      If shared dreaming exists then my crackpot theory is that dreaming occurs in a different dimension independent of our three, and maybe independent of time as well. That would be cool, sharing dreams with people in the past and future.
      That's a fine crackpot theory, with potentially more elegence than my own. Have you considered the "how" of it yet? How sharers actually communicate? How they find each other? What might the interface be between dreamers' brains/consciousnesses and the different dimension itself?

    13. #88
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post

      The Nature of Shared Dreaming

      -- a Loose Theory That Might Work


      (...)

      I was actually thinking about bubbles at first -- you know, the ones kids blow through a wand, basically spheres of soap held together by surface tension. I don’t even know why I was thinking about bubbles; probably a forgotten dream, as I had just woken from a late-morning nap.

      But then I started imagining the shape of bubbles, and their necessarily cohesive surface. And for some reason then I started thinking about thought energy.

      (...)

      Thought energy is the energy created by conscious, sentient, thought. It is an actual form of energy which, because it is completely new and unrelated to the physical world, does not conform to the currently known laws of physics -- it is not electromagnetic, and does not contain known units of energy. Also, thought energy is not to be confused with the electromagnetic energy of brainwaves produced during the physical act of thinking -- that is something else. Thought energy is unique in form to each person generating it, sort of like fingerprints,

      but

      it likely would tend to be drawn to the same locale as other thought energy…

      which, finally, is where the bubbles come in.

      Here’s the theory itself:

      Thought energy is created by individuals and tends to be attracted to other individuals' created thought energy, as well as itself.

      This dual attraction, when combined with the billions of actively sentient beings these days, has formed a “bubble” of coherent thought energy that encompasses our entire planet.

      So what we have is an energy sphere of connected thought pools

      (each pool representing an individual),

      and that energy is not under the jurisdiction of Newton’s laws.

      When we dream, we enjoy a direct connection with our personal pool of thought energy, which in turn is connected to all the rest of the world’s pools through the surface tension of the thought energy bubble.

      From this position we have an opportunity to “transmit” to all the other individuals’ pools simultaneously, and also to listen to any recognizable transmissions that might be coming from other pools.

      If we can manage to recognize and understand these exchanged transmissions, then we are dream-sharing.

      A couple of corollaries:

      First, your transmission goes to the entire sphere of all the billions of pools at once; there is no directed communication. However, if you know the individual whose thoughts you are looking for, and they know you, you should be able to spoon out a conversation from the general ocean of thoughts you are experiencing simultaneously, simply by recognizing a moment of order (your known individual) from the overall chaos of the sphere.

      Also,

      this theory still doesn’t answer the question of how we would convert incoming thoughts into symbols or images that make sense to us, and vise-versa. I imagine/hope there might be some sort of “universal translator” built into our minds that can convert thought energy to usable metaphor.

      This could be similar to Jung’s collective unconscious, and his theory of universal archetypes.

      So that’s what I have so far. I know it’s pretty rough, and probably totally wrong, but it does at least offer a partial answer to the problem I have always had about the “physics” of shared-dreaming:

      How can two people communicate in a dream instantly, without regard for time or space, and how do they find each other at all?

      So,

      if anyone would like to discuss, upgrade, query me for details, or trash this theory altogether, then go for it… This for a change is a dream-sharing thread that asks how it can work, rather than just assume that it does, and thoughtful discussion about the “how” might get us a little closer to creating techniques for more easily and/or accurately practicing the art of dream sharing. .

      (...)

      Any thoughts?
      O o o kay ...

      brilliant.

      From Buddhism, the (I, me, self and) ego don't exist. It is an illusion caused by judging the objects of the senses.

      Senses exist.

      When I can live without judging,

      for example,

      what I "see" as in,

      "That's nice / that's yuky,

      then the skin of the bubble no longer exists and I am liberated into

      Totall oneness "subtly" with all things reality .

      As soon as the judging starts-back-up, the skin of the bubble reforms. And I'm stuck back in the illusion of being a "me" (I, self, ego).

      UMmmm. I really want to address this:

      Quote Originally Posted by Whatsnext View Post
      These things are fun to speculate on but we shouldn't pretend we're developing a scientific model. (Not saying you are Sageous but there is this temptation)

      If shared dreaming exists then my crackpot theory is that dreaming occurs in a different dimension independent of our three, and maybe independent of time as well.

      That would be cool, sharing dreams with people in the past and future
      Yesss

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post

      No, Whatsnext,

      I don't think we are pretending that here, by any measure...

      I personally wouldn't know the first thing about developing a scientific model, and would likely quickly doze off if someone else tried...

      no,

      this thread is purely about the fun of speculating -- and possibly gaining some insight toward the "how" of shared-dreaming.

      That's a fine crackpot theory, with potentially more elegence than my own.

      Have you considered the "how" of it yet? How sharers actually communicate?

      How they find each other?

      What might the interface be between dreamers' brains/consciousnesses and the different dimension itself?
      I got mixed-up with a mean troll in 2008. But to me he/they were wonderful people. My share-dreams and amazing synchronicity with them were of such a tingling-high nature that I took their meaness to be a sort of evil sense of humor (or something).

      But they hammered and hammered and hammered me till I had to do a rethink.

      It was then, after 3 years online with them that I had an epiphany. It happened on 03-27-2011*
      (27-March-2011)
      09:38 PM

      right here on Dreamviews.

      On that day I posted on a big (now locked) thread. Hahaha the tread was locked immediately after my post. Here is the later half of that epiphany post.

      Post #540:

      ***

      [b] ... last couple of days I thought that this might be happening when I “merge” with mean folk like you (username).

      I hook up in dreams and merge with U.

      In this present incarnation U are tooooo mean. But I don’t accept that.*

      And

      I push into folk’s future and find them (U) in their future Buddha State.*

      Then

      I only relate to them from that perspective.

      What will be, IS, and always has been.


      ***

      In my case I am sure that is true. My mind skidaddles deep into the future where we all are perfectly matured (in every way) and we are all friends.

      And we all love communicating, in a childlike, playful manner with ourselfs from long ago.

      Remember time-is-not-linea.
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    14. #89
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      Quote Originally Posted by Psionik View Post
      As I wrote, comprehension is the key. I have problem to grasp a picture of tesseract (four dimensional cube) Tesseract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... But sometimes I feel while in OBE something like time flow. It may be that I can't see four dimensionaly, But I feel somewhat that fourth dimension. It can be that that is an illusion. I have yet to learn conscious walk through time into future and take some information to confirm later in real time. Well also proofs for real time walking is so sparse that I can't say for 100% it is real thing. My little proofs are indications that there could be reality in OBE but I have no definite proofs. It is only enough to believe in it.
      You spoke of five dimensions. Here you're talking about a fourth dimension. What about the other one, what is it and in what sense is it a dimension? I don't think any of us here are arguing that there is no reality in OBE, that isn't at stake. We're trying to understand what it is. And I think that this is the most directly on topic issue in this thread, because if we understand what it is, then we have our answer for how shared dreaming works.

      Quote Originally Posted by Psionik View Post
      I think, the key could be the detachment of mind... Could you describe your mind state while you are out of body, walking?
      Its the same as my usual mind-state. Most of my experiences don't resemble yours closely, but I consider them equivalent to the experiences I have had which do more closely resemble yours. I'll get back to this eventually.

      Quote Originally Posted by Psionik View Post
      Then when that woman opens door at 2:45 she goes to land very similar to what I perceive as mental dimension- pristine nature, everything is sparkling
      I think you're using the word 'dimension' here in a way almost completely different from its scientific and mathematical meaning. You're using it more like a synonym for 'real but radically different kind of experience than waking life sensate perception'. I guess I'll give up on that line of questioning.
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      Shadowofwind- we live in 3D world where we can't use or feel time. I thought that while in astral we would be in 4D world, where the 5th dimension is not directly measurable (which would be similar to physical world as fourth dimension (time) is also not possible to measure directly). I'm not sure if we are meant to be able to understand more than three dimensions. I can feel in astral more, but here not. The difference is profound enough to feel it. Shared dreams (in my opinion) could be possible only through higher dimensions, because otherwise we would be able to measure something... and our brains would need to be very strong emitters and very sensitive receivers of physical fields(which they are not). If we take as working hypothesis that a soul exist, it must be existent on higher dimension too, because again we can measure nothing. If soul exist in higher dimension and we as souls extension can't comprehend our souls senses, it means there is something like incompatibility issue... maybe same kind of block on either our souls senses so it could perceive signals only through body senses??? Or it is all made because of illusion of EGO? I'm not sure whether I understand a concept of EGO fully. Is there possibility of feeling myself if there wouldn't be EGO?

      Mental dimension should be also in 5D dimension. But the feel is little different as is perceived state of mind too. It is harder to maintain that state of mind than state of mind needed for astral dimension. I'm not sure about using word dimension too. But I was able to find those classification on internet and according to that I was able to project into astral(95%+) mental(less than 4%) and budhic (1or2 times) dimension. There were others mentioned, but I think I didn't reached them. Many times when I fail to project out of body I end up in the black void, where there is nothing, there is no frame reference... There is no time... it feels like I'm point and at same time I'm everywhere... Without any perceived body, without thoughts... I'm... I feel... Nothingness. And fullness.
      I think there is no possibility of scientifically measure something out of physical dimensions as we know it. Maybe in future, but I don't think it would be ever sensitive and fine enough. You were in astral and you are saying that your experiences are similar to mine enough. Therefore you probably can relate to what I feel when I try to describe it. But because our background is different our opinions on what we see is different. That is OK
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      I don't do natural AstralProjection or LDing very often i'm not good at it, I usually resort to psychedelic substances to explore the mind. I base my views of shared dreaming and paranormal on these experiences, atleast i use them to explain the nature of shared dreaming. Since you guys started sharing experiences i don't want to be left behind and thought i'd share mine so you guys have an idea where i'm coming from as well. And why I lean towards certain arguments and explanations for shared dreaming.

      I once met an entity on Salvia which seemed to imply having a conversation with my soul in different reincarnations. It struck me that somehow this entity must be outside of time.. What happens on salvia is a weird sort of folding of reality. I have speculated that the body could be multidimensional. The chakra points represent metaphysical system of existence. The throat for example is a system for creating objects into existence. Or something, because i carried my throat with me but it is slightly different in this other form of existence. Salvia engages all 5 senses in a really strange way. It is so strange that even I can not conceptualize it or even remember how it happens.

      I've seen a thread of light linking from my third eye which forms a connection with a white light. For me, there was a blue jade crystal shining through this light. I interpreted it as Budhic dimension. I was able to produce this experience by meditating on 'love' after ingesting DMT. What happens is that my perspective shifted to a slightly higher angle (literally, i feel myself floating up slightly) and when this happens, it's like i'm in space and you see stars and stuff and weird looking organisms/parasites with bright colours become attracted to and attach themselves to what feels like my skull. Very far in this space you see this bright shining light that looks like a star and this sci-fi looking beam is in direct contact and gives a weird feeling in the spot between my eyebrows.

      Once it took me to another brightly coloured non-physical space which when in that space i'm struck with the peculiair realization that this place HAS to and obviously is outside of time.

      And last but not least i have experienced the peculiair sensation of having my consciousness literally feel expanded as if it is a bubble and comes with sensation of much higher processing power and the ability to think in higher dimensions. Now, I have difficulty understanding the mathematical form of dimensions and the implications of such a system. So i can't say too much about that. However, i have enough personal evidence to be convinced that consciousness is able to transcend itself to much higher levels of function. It is a very distinct feeling. When it ends, you feel your consciousness shrink to it's normal size and suddenly you are unable to process what just happened and you have a hard time recalling what happened just one minute ago. This recall problem is very similar to what happens when you just wake up from a dream but you just can't bring it back. There's a link here..

      At one point there felt to be a swarm of fireflies surging through my body. It pointed my attention to my jaw which has been locked for years. The fireflies moved to my jaw and affected my receptors in such a way that i feel my jaw literally being fixed. The problems with my jaws disappeared over the following weeks and is now completely healthy. For this reason i base that mind is able to influence the physical in a currently unknown fashion to scientific knowledge.

      I opt for EM explanations because i have met an elf once on Ayahuasca and it came to sit on my right shoulder. I perceived a weight felt on my shoulder and it talked to me in a spoken language which is a auditory sensation. For this reason i kind of suggest the 'elf' in this case radiates soundwaves and magnetic waves to produce these sensations in my brain. Ok now the very last speculation, one time i put on Delta brainwaves after ingesting DMT and communicating with perceived entities. What happened is that all the hallucinations became fractalled. The entity screamed in panic for a moment and when i 'asked' whatsup. It said, it's okay. I didn't know. But somehow these delta brainwaves put the entity in trouble cus it said it had to now navigate through a maze and i somehow messed with his mode of existence. Same thing when i say i feel entities sucking on my skull.. There are no entities on my physical skull.. That is for sure. Yet i feel like there is a weight there repulsing the magnetic force that touched my pain receptors?

      So eh, i'll probably come back to this. I think ill investigate electromagnetics in sensual receptors first. Sageous, what do you say? Is it on-topic to discuss electromagnetics as a possible mechanism for shared dreaming/telepathy?
      Last edited by Dthoughts; 02-13-2014 at 12:35 PM.

    17. #92
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      I'm not sure we're even discussing this anymore, but I thought of a revision for my OP's [metaphoric!] construct of the thought-energy bubble and figured I would share:

      Instead of pools of thought energy, creating the necessary image of countless little puddles coalescing into a great sphere, what if we stole a string-theory image and considered our accumulations of individual thought-energy not as pools but as threads, and these threads spread in all directions, intertwining with all the other threads created by all the other individual thinkers?

      These threads would follow the same rules as the pools. The threads may intertwine with many others without ever noticing them, because their thought energy doesn't quite match, and those that do almost match have an ability or tendency to communicate.

      I just thought I'd throw this in, because an image of billions of intertwined "threads," each comprised of the unique thought energy (and thoughts) of a sentient individual, seemed to fit here. Also, given that the threads have the potential to come into contact with all the other threads, perhaps simultaneously, such a bundle might make dream sharing (and telepathy) possible.

      Though I still believe thought energy would need to exist outside the known rules of space & time, this thread thing might sidestep the need to transcend space and time, and the metaphor might welcome some constructive ideas about how to get the threads to connect.

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      Now this is weird!

      I thought you already made that post, Sageos.. Are you repeating yourself? Because i swear it is not a lie that i remember reading your post before.. In fact, i had exactly the content of ur current post in mind while i was writing my post on 12:30 today..

      Either way, it is not relevant to the thread except to add in discussion about Precognition and Time.. I asked if it was okay to talk about EM as a courtesy because i REMEMBERED exactly the words "sidestep the need to transcend space and time" while i was writing my post..

      Weird.. anyway.. I did remember you vaguely mentioned strings.. About an hour ago i happened to stumble on string theory and apparently my thoughts connected itself to string theory.. From Electromagnetics to String theory.. It kind of makes sense.. It will take long to formulate a proper sentence about this though, so i will have to come back to it.

      I think if i do manage to formulate my ideas in proper sentence we will have a workable starting-point for a workable theory on shared dreaming. Just like you suggested in the original post, how ur post is a start in the right direction. I have the same ideas about my franctic theorizing the last couple of days. It's a good start. Even though it has loads of holes. And don't worry.. I believe everything discussed here is related to the OP although it may not be obvious at first glance.
      Last edited by Dthoughts; 02-13-2014 at 05:10 PM.
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      ^^ You caught me, Dthoughts!

      It appeared that my post had been lost behind a series of new posts and, still feeling it a relevant update to my OP, I figured it worth moving up a few spaces. And, of course, I moved it before reading your post above.

      I'm glad you noticed, and look forward to your "starting point," should you find those proper sentences!

      Speaking of that:
      So eh, i'll probably come back to this. I think ill investigate electromagnetics in sensual receptors first. Sageous, what do you say? Is it on-topic to discuss electromagnetics as a possible mechanism for shared dreaming/telepathy?
      Sure! Even with this entangled threads idea in place, I still have trouble with electromagnetism working as a force for transferring thoughts, both from energy-level and communication interface perspectives, but I could certainly be wrong...

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      Quote Originally Posted by Psionik View Post
      I'm not sure about using word dimension too. But I was able to find those classification on internet and according to that I was able to project into astral(95%+) mental(less than 4%) and budhic (1or2 times) dimension.
      Psionik,

      As I see it, these internet classifications must have some element of truth or they wouldn't work as well as they do. But I think that to some extent they are thoughts of what might be real, and you're projecting into those thoughts. If the thoughts were different your experiences would be different. I've been trying to find or build a better collection of thoughts, because I feel limited by the other ones.

      When I had my first out of body experiences, I interpreted them in a conventional New Age way, and assumed that I was out of my physical body in my astral body and seeing and hearing astrally. Then I did some math graduate study of geometry and topology, and started thinking of the experience more in terms of projections and transformations. While awake, I have a tactile and visual mental model of my surroundings that I incorporate sensate information into. If I intentionally manipulate that model so that by sense of where my body is no longer corresponds to where my body actually is, then I have an out of body experience. But nothing is going anywhere, I'm manipulating a model. Superficially, this seems to account for the sensate aspects of the astral experiences, without the existence of any additional dimensions. However, I also get a lot of premonitions and synchronous and telepathetic kinds of experiences. So if other people say that something is going on when they're astral projecting that goes beyond warping an experiential model, I believe them. But I still question how real their interpretation of the experience is, because most people don't seem to have thought very much about the differences between objective reality and the experience of one's representation of it. And I see this as an essential step, even though I'm missing other essential steps.

      So your answer, as I understand it, is that a time-like dimension is experienced in a less limited way during your astral experience, and the existence of at least one additional dimension is implied by that experience but not experienced directly. Thanks for putting some thought into that and sharing.

      Regarding the ego....Some people think that the capacity to feel is not a part of the ego, that its a part of the 'true self'. Other people put it with the ego. I disagree with both of them in that I think the ego is less illusory than they make it out to be. But in any case, thinking about this sort of thing seems to be a part of what makes it possible to have these more expansive experiences. And I agree with those who identify the development of feeling and thinking with it as being important.

      In most of my dreams I don't generate the experience of having a body, I'm nowhere and thinking about thoughts. So I have out-of-body type experiences rarely. But I think a lot of what I'm aware of is the same as what other people are aware of in their astral explorations, even though they're projecting a spirit-body representation into some kind of multidimensional space and I'm not. I think if we talk about feeling, or identity, we're talking about the same things.

      I'll have my phone turned off for the next ten days after tonight, but I might find some time to read or post again, we'll see. Thanks for your thoughts. I still haven't replied to everything you said to me earlier, but its still on my list of things I want to get to.
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    21. #96
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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      Psionik,

      As I see it, these internet classifications must have some element of truth or they wouldn't work as well as they do. But I think that to some extent they are thoughts of what might be real, and you're projecting into those thoughts. If the thoughts were different your experiences would be different. I've been trying to find or build a better collection of thoughts, because I feel limited by the other ones.
      It is so even if I found this classifications years after I had started to do my OBEs? I didn't use outside source to be motivated by OBEs, nor I had any sources available(communist regime in Czechoslovakia at the time). And later also wasn't possible to obtain informations... I found it on internet much later, maybe around year 1998. Even my accidental OBE time travels happened much sooner than that. I don't feel limited by any information obtained, I try to confirm them if I hadn't thought of them sooner. Those dimension I found sooner to be existent, I only didn't have interpretation for it. I didn't have names for them too. I only knew that there are OBEs(I name it walking or traveling, before I knew name OBE) of different kind of feeling, different requirements on mind state for existence in them.

      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      When I had my first out of body experiences, I interpreted them in a conventional New Age way, and assumed that I was out of my physical body in my astral body and seeing and hearing astrally. Then I did some math graduate study of geometry and topology, and started thinking of the experience more in terms of projections and transformations. While awake, I have a tactile and visual mental model of my surroundings that I incorporate sensate information into. If I intentionally manipulate that model so that by sense of where my body is no longer corresponds to where my body actually is, then I have an out of body experience. But nothing is going anywhere, I'm manipulating a model. Superficially, this seems to account for the sensate aspects of the astral experiences, without the existence of any additional dimensions. However, I also get a lot of premonitions and synchronous and telepathetic kinds of experiences. So if other people say that something is going on when they're astral projecting that goes beyond warping an experiential model, I believe them. But I still question how real their interpretation of the experience is, because most people don't seem to have thought very much about the differences between objective reality and the experience of one's representation of it. And I see this as an essential step, even though I'm missing other essential steps.
      My first accidental OBE I thought I'm dying. Then I thought that walking out of body is a very special kind of dream. Then when I saw some glimpses of future, of present... while walking I thought that, that feeling of super reality must be something more than feeling. Since then I'm trying to find more proofs... but proofs are very sparse. I try to learn to have more control during OBEs, but it is quite hard to be at the same time passive and active. On the other side, as time goes it becomes easier. Only proofs are not to come by easily. They are sparse and unclear till I found connection. It could sometimes take years till I have confirmed vision.

      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      So your answer, as I understand it, is that a time-like dimension is experienced in a less limited way during your astral experience, and the existence of at least one additional dimension is implied by that experience but not experienced directly. Thanks for putting some thought into that and sharing.
      Well we don't have physical sense for time flow, therefore in astral it is probably thing of habit from physical dimension... But I can feel sometimes time flow.

      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      Regarding the ego....Some people think that the capacity to feel is not a part of the ego, that its a part of the 'true self'. Other people put it with the ego. I disagree with both of them in that I think the ego is less illusory than they make it out to be. But in any case, thinking about this sort of thing seems to be a part of what makes it possible to have these more expansive experiences. And I agree with those who identify the development of feeling and thinking with it as being important.

      In most of my dreams I don't generate the experience of having a body, I'm nowhere and thinking about thoughts. So I have out-of-body type experiences rarely. But I think a lot of what I'm aware of is the same as what other people are aware of in their astral explorations, even though they're projecting a spirit-body representation into some kind of multidimensional space and I'm not. I think if we talk about feeling, or identity, we're talking about the same things.

      I'll have my phone turned off for the next ten days after tonight, but I might find some time to read or post again, we'll see. Thanks for your thoughts. I still haven't replied to everything you said to me earlier, but its still on my list of things I want to get to.
      EGO... maybe there is only one part of it negative, the part which is dealing with "volition"(not sure of word as I'm not an English speaker), fear... But part which makes as feel as thinking and feeling entity is real... maybe. When I'm hovering in black void, in thoughtless state of mind, when feelings are substituting thoughts(my definition of meditation)... I have feeling of identity. That identity is only feel of existence of my entity... there is no fear, no "volition", no passion... there is peace, stillness, being... I don't know whether it is possible to repress that feeling of identity(repress is a bad word, I don't know what word to use... to forget would be even worse)
      I have OBEs rarely too... sometimes only a few times in month, sometimes only a few times of week I want them as often as I need and because it isn't the case, for me it is rarely. And more than 90% of my travels are so uneventful that they don't seem to have meaning. I traveled this week 3 times. I maybe saw into real world- my wife was holding youngest daughter on lap while sitting in children room and speaking with older one. At least she told me so(after my travel). Then I observed again diffusion of material from things. It seems like diffusion is grater around things that could be moved more easily. That would imply that I see possibilities of existence of thing in the place I perceive it? Walls were nearly solid nearly none of diffusion. Maybe I can't often see things which are often moved from one place to different place because probability diffusion makes it invisible? Walking through wall was easy, but I found myself some 100km from my house.
      Last edited by Psionik; 02-14-2014 at 10:23 AM.

    22. #97
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      yoyo, Psionik. What do you mean with Diffusion of material? It sounds peculiar and interesting but i can't quite picture it.. Can you please go more into it?

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      It is like dust surrounding things. Particles hovering around things... they are less concentrated as they are further from things... There is solid mater then it goes firstly through very thick dust then it gradually lowers its concentration to nothingness... Is that more clear?
      I think I see connection of that with probability of things being on that particular place. I can be in an error, of course. But it is not first time I saw that.

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      Yes, that is very detailed. Thank you

      A glow kind of behaves the same way. It has a thick core but it gradually fades into nothing.

      I do not think that probability is a real law of nature. I thought it was just a way of expressing something we don't understand. Hence i do not agree with you. But I agree that it does have a lot of thing in common with Wave-like properties, which is really small particles behaving in a way we don't yet understand.

      Remember how Shadow said it is shaped by our expectation? Well.. When i had my first lucid dreams i didn't even know about Probability or Quantum physics.. I just knew about waves. It lends weight to shadow's words on how we shape things. I think it is possible that this mechanism is abolished if you travel with DMT. Presenting a space that is more true to objective reality than Natural Astral travels. Not implying that one is better than the other, they are just different. I'm pretty sure natural travels are much more rewarding in the long run. It just helps to take DMT sometimes so you have some sense of direction and don't have to be stuck in places that have no significant meaning for you.

      Ur right on the money mate. Glad you brought it up. More fuel for me to find a physical explanation for AP/Shared dreaming.
      Last edited by Dthoughts; 02-15-2014 at 12:20 AM.

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      Probability of thing being at some place in that particular time means for me, at least in light of those experiences, that either I see something like location in 4th dimension(time, like stretched in timeline) or I see it multidimensionally (it could be located in different but adjacent dimensions a little differently)... I mean maybe I see location of thing in many parallel dimensions. I'm not sure why it doesn't have other look, I would take fog form as better fitting than very small but visible particles. But besides first tries to replicate accidental traveling(OBE), I don't try to extent control on things around me with imaginative part of my mind. I keep that part of mind "sleeping". I found long time ago that that is disturbing "reality" of astral, it tends to throw me out, back into my body... or into dream, even if lucid... From time to time people are suggesting doing sex in astral. Very disturbing experience in terms of maintaining balance of feelings, and relaxation of body. I must say, I managed a few times to hold in astral by such activities, but it was because I managed to retain detachment. Such sex is then weird At least for me. Because detachment from what body feels, from what mind thinks normally in such emotional activity leads to something close to indifference... It is close to lack of interest in what I'm doing(sex)... When someone asks me about it, I maintain the standpoint that better is not to try such things. I'm not trying to go through such experiences too. It shortens my stays in astral, and I feel that pity.

      I don't take any drugs to travel. Relaxation and concentration into right physical and mental state is enough... even if not as reliable as I would like. But mind altering drugs do in my opinion much more than only alter function of brain so you have a trip. I think, the control of imaginative part of mind could be impossible...

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