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    Thread: On The Nature of Shared Dreaming

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      On The Nature of Shared Dreaming

      The Nature of Shared Dreaming -- a Loose Theory That Might Work

      There are a gazillion threads discussing shared dreaming on this forum, and yet another one might not make a difference, but I had a thought this morning regarding an explanation of its physical nature -- and a rationale for it being “real,” that I thought might be worth some discussion.

      I was actually thinking about bubbles at first -- you know, the ones kids blow through a wand, basically spheres of soap held together by surface tension. I don’t even know why I was thinking about bubbles; probably a forgotten dream, as I had just woken from a late-morning nap. But then I started imagining the shape of bubbles, and their necessarily cohesive surface. And for some reason then I started thinking about thought energy.

      I’ve written many times about thought energy here and elsewhere, so most of you likely know the tune, but here it is again [this is all conjecture based on no more than wishful thinking, BTW, so please hold off on the physics lectures! ]:

      Thought energy is the energy created by conscious, sentient, thought. It is an actual form of energy which, because it is completely new and unrelated to the physical world, does not conform to the currently known laws of physics -- it is not electromagnetic, and does not contain known units of energy. Also, thought energy is not to be confused with the electromagnetic energy of brainwaves produced during the physical act of thinking -- that is something else. Thought energy is unique in form to each person generating it, sort of like fingerprints, but it likely would tend to be drawn to the same locale as other thought energy…which, finally, is where the bubbles come in.

      Here’s the theory itself: Thought energy is created by individuals and tends to be attracted to other individuals' created thought energy, as well as itself. This dual attraction, when combined with the billions of actively sentient beings these days, has formed a “bubble” of coherent thought energy that encompasses our entire planet. So what we have is an energy sphere of connected thought pools (each pool representing an individual), and that energy is not under the jurisdiction of Newton’s laws.

      When we dream, we enjoy a direct connection with our personal pool of thought energy, which in turn is connected to all the rest of the world’s pools through the surface tension of the thought energy bubble. From this position we have an opportunity to “transmit” to all the other individuals’ pools simultaneously, and also to listen to any recognizable transmissions that might be coming from other pools. If we can manage to recognize and understand these exchanged transmissions, then we are dream-sharing.

      A couple of corollaries:

      First, your transmission goes to the entire sphere of all the billions of pools at once; there is no directed communication. However, if you know the individual whose thoughts you are looking for, and they know you, you should be able to spoon out a conversation from the general ocean of thoughts you are experiencing simultaneously, simply by recognizing a moment of order (your known individual) from the overall chaos of the sphere.

      Also, this theory still doesn’t answer the question of how we would convert incoming thoughts into symbols or images that make sense to us, and vise-versa. I imagine/hope there might be some sort of “universal translator” built into our minds that can convert thought energy to usable metaphor. This could be similar to Jung’s collective unconscious, and his theory of universal archetypes.

      So that’s what I have so far. I know it’s pretty rough, and probably totally wrong, but it does at least offer a partial answer to the problem I have always had about the “physics” of shared-dreaming: How can two people communicate in a dream instantly, without regard for time or space, and how do they find each other at all?

      So, if anyone would like to discuss, upgrade, query me for details, or trash this theory altogether, then go for it… This for a change is a dream-sharing thread that asks how it can work, rather than just assume that it does, and thoughtful discussion about the “how” might get us a little closer to creating techniques for more easily and/or accurately practicing the art of dream sharing. .


      In case anyone wants to start a conversation: I hope you won’t mind if I include a few ground rules for discussion that I urge you to follow:

      * What I want to avoid on this thread is an “Is not, because I said so! / Is so, because I said so!” argument, as these sorts of conversations are pretty much useless and tend to lead to angry, if heartfelt, exchanges… let’s not go there!

      * I am not asking if you “believe” in dream-sharing, or asking you to assume that I believe in it. I really don’t care what people want to believe; perhaps nobody should.

      * I don’t care at all about how good you are at shared dreaming, or that a friend of your cousin’s uncle is a master dream-sharer. This is not a thread about belief, anecdotal proof, or how cool dream-sharing might be. It’s about the “how.”

      * And, of course, if you’re inclined to post with something like “dream-sharing just exists, and we can never understand why,” don’t bother. Though that is likely true, it will do nothing for the conversation.



      Any thoughts?

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      While I don't (currently) believe in dream sharing, this theory does seem plausible. Though hoe we'd prove the existence of thought energy, is anyone's guess. A theory I've had cooking for a while (well, thought about once on a long bus trip), is that quantum entanglement could have something to do with it, but I don't really know.
      As an aside, considering some of the disturbing things in my mind, I'd rather they stayed private.

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      A thought energy... in higher dimension it creates things...
      Collective unconsciousness could be superconsciousness, something like higher intelligence made of everything thinking on planet. It would be named unconsciousness, only because we are not aware of its existence we do not observe it...
      I would be cautious about believing in something immeasurable. I believe in existence of higher dimensions even if I can't measure them, it is because I found a few things which correlated with this reality. But I need much more than a few before my belief will become an reality for me.

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      Nice theory Sageous! From all of the current ideas and theories currently out there regarding dream sharing I think this may be one of the most competent ones. Based on the experiences I have had I would say this helps to explain (my own experiences) very neatly. Are you proposing that in order to receive others dreams we first need to tune in/transmit? In which case what is protecting the dreamer from incoming dreams from others? Our individual pools seem to help us stay primarily contained within our own dreaming (proven by looking at the majority of our dreams which seem to be populated by our OWN characters based on people we know and our OWN self created places based on places we have been) so why is this? Does this mean that each person has their own set of symbols and 'language' which, on one hand would help to ensure that we are more or less protected within our own personal pools from a barrage of other peoples thoughts, but on the other hand language then gets muddled when entering another person's dream, making it difficult to read and possibly impossible to match the the person sending the dream?

      I also had a thought regarding shared dreaming which would fit nicely into your current hypothesis - in order to share a dream we would first need to 'tune in' (as you previously proposed) but like tuning into a distant radio station there may be static and interference from other stations, but the more we tune in the better the connection gets until we have 'clear reception' This would help to explain why people find it so difficult to dream share straight away, and why persistence is necessary in order to get clear and concise results.

      Another idea to help get 'better/stronger' results would be to plan meetings and exercises using symbolically neutral places and ideas. Using symbolically neutral (or alternatively symbolically agreed) places to meet would help the 'translator' perform at a better rate

      sorry if this does not make any sense, just throwing ideas around!
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      Maybe the place is irrelevant... maybe it is enough if we try to communicate... I tried to call... to yell for target person. So he/she would appear. Once someone appeared, but that wasn't person I called, it was some crazy looking old man He spotted me and started to cackle... when I started to come to him to communicate, he ran away and disappeared. I try it quite often.
      I believe the communication needs right tuning. To be on the same "wave length" And tuning is something I don't know how to do easy. Persons I met in astral seems not to see me... Or they see me but they are unresponsive. The best results I had was with my brother, even then we didn't communicated fully, only partially. And many, great many communication efforts were absolutely failed.

      I remember, I met once a friend in astral, and she waited on bus station. I was naked. And I wasn't concerned about it, that was irrelevant. Some people who went by told me that I'm naked, and I told them that that is not important. I went to that women and started to speak. She didn't answer. I sat down next to her and took her hand. I started to try to tune her(because of my problems to tune myself I thought that it would be simpler to tune her). As I concentrated lightnings danced from my hand into her... I felt as I transferred energy... but... I didn't succeed. She remained unresponsive to end of experience.

      Or I went from bedroom where I left my body down to kitchen. I found there my wife, standing, not moving. She wasn't reacting on me. I put my hands into her body. And she started to speak that she feels something in her stomach, head... and so on. I told her later about my experience and she didn't know about it. So... fail too.

      I dragged my wife to LD as I was falling to sleep with help of WILD method. And then I made guide to her during whole experience... I tried to make her awake... I failed.

      It will take time.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Also, this theory still doesn’t answer the question of how we would convert incoming thoughts into symbols or images that make sense to us, and vise-versa. I imagine/hope there might be some sort of “universal translator” built into our minds that can convert thought energy to usable metaphor. This could be similar to Jung’s collective unconscious, and his theory of universal archetypes.
      About this, just like we just know how to interpret certain wavelength into specific colors we could interpret these energy thoughts for what they are. I assume most of us see the same thing when we see red, that a mother sounds the same to all her children. Then, most of us would interpret this thought energy in similar way. Some people might be different and interpret them wrong. The daltonians of dream-sharing.

      This is an interesting theory but I still have trouble imagining how bubbles are all linked outside of space. I'm imagining like a thousand beads in a flask. They touch the other beads beside them. But no other. Are you saying the whole surface of the bubbles creates a whole?

      This reminds me of something from physics... Apparently, protons interact with neutrons through field particles called gluons. In fact, all of the fundamental attractive forces are caused by particles. Perhaps thought energy is similar. It can travel through space and create a connection between two consciousness (the two nucleons).
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    7. #7
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      Thanks for the excellent responses, guys; you've really got me thinking now! I hope you don't mind my lazily jamming all my responses to you on one giant post (I hope I don't contradict myself too much! :

      floatinghead:
      Quote Originally Posted by floatinghead View Post
      ...Are you proposing that in order to receive others dreams we first need to tune in/transmit?
      I suppose I am. In a sense, everyone's energy -- everyone's thoughts, their pool, their individual presence -- is united with the "bubble," universally and timelessly. All those billions of different presences being "broadcast" simultaneously would imply that an individual would need to know how to tune in to the specific broadcast of their chosen sharing partner -- which is why it is extremely helpful to know your dream-sharing target well.

      In which case what is protecting the dreamer from incoming dreams from others?
      Nothing. But that bubble -- that ocean of other pools of thought energy -- is vast enough to be perfectly chaotic (is that an oxymoron?), and that chaos, would, I imagine, read like little more than background noise. Perhaps this is where bizarre imagery, completely alien schemata, and totally strange DC's might come from?

      Our individual pools seem to help us stay primarily contained within our own dreaming (proven by looking at the majority of our dreams which seem to be populated by our OWN characters based on people we know and our OWN self created places based on places we have been) so why is this?
      The thought energy comprising our personal pool is, obviously, our own, and the energy of own creation is more attracted to itself than to other people's energy. So our own identity, memories, and feelings have priority, leaving little room or attention for stuff overlapping from the general bubble.

      Does this mean that each person has their own set of symbols and 'language' which, on one hand would help to ensure that we are more or less protected within our own personal pools from a barrage of other peoples thoughts[?]
      I think it is less a unique set of symbols or metaphor than it is that our own thought energy is unique to our individual identity, and more a part of us, of that pool, than is the general energy of all thinkers. Did I just say that a second ago? And yes, because our pool is rich with our own essence, we are indeed "protected" from the accidental or intentional invasion of other people's thoughts.

      There may be a couple of exceptions to this: First, a person with a weak mind, or, rather, a person who limits their level of thought -- of real introspection, wonder, curiosity, compassion, etc -- in waking life for whatever reason might find their pool of thought energy weak and poorly formed, perhaps open to some intrusion. Also, given the billions of permutations, there may be other pools whose energy is very similar to yours, and you may find yourself bumping into each other in each others dreams, though possibly without any real communication (more in a sec). Indeed, I started a thread a long time ago that considered this, though I hadn't yet thought of the bubble or pools yet -- that thread was Finding Yourself in Other People's Dreams, if you're curious.

      ...but on the other hand language then gets muddled when entering another person's dream, making it difficult to read and possibly impossible to match the the person sending the dream?
      Yes, and this is a critical point that I hope earns more discussion on this thread.

      I also had a thought regarding shared dreaming which would fit nicely into your current hypothesis - in order to share a dream we would first need to 'tune in' (as you previously proposed) but like tuning into a distant radio station there may be static and interference from other stations, but the more we tune in the better the connection gets until we have 'clear reception' This would help to explain why people find it so difficult to dream share straight away, and why persistence is necessary in order to get clear and concise results.
      Agreed.

      Another idea to help get 'better/stronger' results would be to plan meetings and exercises using symbolically neutral places and ideas. Using symbolically neutral (or alternatively symbolically agreed) places to meet would help the 'translator' perform at a better rate
      I'm not sure that would work, because even the metaphors that seem so obvious in waking life (like agreeing to meet on the moon) become something else altogether when individual minds are independently producing them -- in other words, even the moon might look very different to me than it does to you. However, that is probably a good start for experimentation -- testing that translator -- and might just work; especially if the dreamers know each other well or, better yet, intimately.

      Psionik:
      Quote Originally Posted by Psionik View Post
      Maybe the place is irrelevant... maybe it is enough if we try to communicate... I tried to call... to yell for target person. So he/she would appear. Once someone appeared, but that wasn't person I called, it was some crazy looking old man He spotted me and started to cackle... when I started to come to him to communicate, he ran away and disappeared. I try it quite often.
      I believe the communication needs right tuning. To be on the same "wave length" And tuning is something I don't know how to do easy. Persons I met in astral seems not to see me... Or they see me but they are unresponsive. The best results I had was with my brother, even then we didn't communicated fully, only partially. And many, great many communication efforts were absolutely failed.
      Good point. Keep in mind that, according to my hypothesis, you may actually have connected with your target person, and that cackling old man was as close as you were able to "tune." Something to think about, anyway! Makes sense that you had better results with your brother, for reasons I mentioned above... it also makes sense that you would fail many efforts, because just trying to communicate might not be enough; you might need something to trigger that translator, to construct metaphors that make sense to both you and your target dreamer.

      I remember, I met once a friend in astral, and she waited on bus station. I was naked. And I wasn't concerned about it, that was irrelevant. Some people who went by told me that I'm naked, and I told them that that is not important. I went to that women and started to speak. She didn't answer. I sat down next to her and took her hand. I started to try to tune her(because of my problems to tune myself I thought that it would be simpler to tune her). As I concentrated lightnings danced from my hand into her... I felt as I transferred energy... but... I didn't succeed. She remained unresponsive to end of experience.
      Interesting... it seems as though you were right there, constructing a metaphor for communication (first having only speaking to her as a priority, then intuitively manipulating that lightning); or perhaps (forgive me for saying) it was just a dream? I'm guessing there will be a next time when you will be better able to sort all this out?

      Or I went from bedroom where I left my body down to kitchen. I found there my wife, standing, not moving. She wasn't reacting on me. I put my hands into her body. And she started to speak that she feels something in her stomach, head... and so on. I told her later about my experience and she didn't know about it. So... fail too.

      I dragged my wife to LD as I was falling to sleep with help of WILD method. And then I made guide to her during whole experience... I tried to make her awake... I failed.

      It will take time.
      Yes it will, but your efforts -- and apparent path for exploration -- are fascinating!

      Occipitalred:
      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      About this, just like we just know how to interpret certain wavelength into specific colors we could interpret these energy thoughts for what they are. I assume most of us see the same thing when we see red, that a mother sounds the same to all her children. Then, most of us would interpret this thought energy in similar way. Some people might be different and interpret them wrong. The daltonians of dream-sharing.
      Interesting and agreed; and here is why it may be important to know your sharing partner well.

      This is an interesting theory but I still have trouble imagining how bubbles are all linked outside of space. I'm imagining like a thousand beads in a flask. They touch the other beads beside them. But no other. Are you saying the whole surface of the bubbles creates a whole?

      Yes. Think less of liquid beads than complex molecules (the pools), all joined in a coherent pattern (that sphere or world-spanning "bubble"). Now that I think about it, those pools are more metaphor than I thought; I think the cohesive thought energy -- the complete bubble -- would likely permeate all the pools, though, due to being focused on the nature of our personally generated energy, don't really notice it. So the whole, that bubble of cohesive pools, is really just one great (non-sentient!) entity, and we the pools are both factors comprising it and entities separate form it ... that sounded better in my head!

      This reminds me of something from physics... Apparently, protons interact with neutrons through field particles called gluons. In fact, all of the fundamental attractive forces are caused by particles. Perhaps thought energy is similar. It can travel through space and create a connection between two consciousness (the two nucleons).
      It could be similar to this. But if making such a comparison, I would term thought energy as something more like Higgs particle, with the general sphere being comparable to a Higgs field ... if anyone cares to correct me on this I'd appreciate it, as I'm very bad at quantum mechanics!

      I hope some of this made sense, guys, and I also hope you'll let me know if it didn't, or where I went wrong...
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      I have thought about this a lot. Not just for shared dreaming, but visiting someone/someplace via Astral travel and RV. I think the black"Delta" state is important as it seems to come up in most of the phenomena that we talk about here. I really have not thought too deeply about shared dreamig though Th ere. has to be a common

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      thread that allows for us to find certain energies while in "altered states.
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      There is one problem I have in astral when it concerns with communication, and that is shortage of entities capable of communication. My astral is nearly empty of animal life(I assign humans and other entities like angels, devils, vampires to animal life )
      Most populated place I found was hell (I recognize it as low level astral). I was there two times, once I flew by only, and I wasn't recognized, second time I was there as guide... And from the horde of devils only one was capable of communication, all others were like programmed robots, not capable of doing something what needs creativity. Astral I regularly visit is more or less devoid of animal life... Only trees, plants... and things created by humans... and occasional "automated, not responding" human here or there...
      In mental dimension I found none animal life.
      Budhic dimension was different- there were stars/souls but very far from me and each other. I tried to fly to one(inner feeling told me that I had to merge with one particular) But I didn't manage to hold concentration, to hold the level of detachment needed and was thrown back to my body.
      Therefore 3-4 months ago I started to explore communication possibilities through lucid dreams as in dreams I often communicate with other entities. DILD generated dreams are like regular dreams in therm of animal life... But I found that my LD generated by WILD are similar to astral... only the feeling is different(feeling like this is a dream and I'm aware of it) And possibilities to exact my imagination give it more possibilities to explore. Nowadays I follow both routes- OBE and LD. I like OBE more as there is distinct feel of super reality.

      Does someone here similar observations in regards of animal life populace?

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      The thought 'bubbles' would be in a 'space' defined by the relationships between the thoughts. Within that space, I don't think that communication can be instantaneous, because that would mean all points are equidistant, in which case the thoughts don't have surfaces, or any other relational dynamics.

      The 'space' isn't our physical space though, since those aren't quite the same relationships. So I think there must be a kind of time in that other space, though it's not the same as our time. And it connects or projects to 'physical' time in a way that's not possible to understand if trying to think exclusively in terms of that time.

      Psionik, It seems to me that your astral realm would be defined largely by who you are then you are in it. So if you are alive and open in an animal way, then there will be animals in it. But you probably close that part of yourself, because otherwise you don't know how to stay in your 'astral' state without your passions pulling you out of it.

      Our 'immortality' thread seems to have been a study in using logic to draw almost arbitrary conclusions from flawed premises. From some of the same logic, for instance, it follows that what is real is only what you're aware of, and destroying something is wrong only if you get caught. No doubt my premises and conclusions here are messed up too, so I can only hope it's a tiny step in the right direction.

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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      Psionik, It seems to me that your astral realm would be defined largely by who you are then you are in it. So if you are alive and open in an animal way, then there will be animals in it. But you probably close that part of yourself, because otherwise you don't know how to stay in your 'astral' state without your passions pulling you out of it.
      I closed my animal side? Hmmm... An interesting idea... I really don't know. It had to be closed since I was around 12-13 years old, because even my first astral travel was similar to present ones.

      Hmmm I remembered while contemplating about this problem, that there were some experiences before that. I don't have them written. I can't remember whether it was lucid dream or OBE. I was much younger, I was ill, had high temperature 39°C+, and I remember floating around lamp in room... and then around house. I remembered how still everything was. Peacefully still. No animal lifeform(no domestic animals, no humans)... only house, and plants... nice sunny day. There were maybe two others similar experiences induced by high fever together with relaxation during "perspiration threatment". So I was closed that way even when I was around 8 years old???
      Now comes other memory. I was around 13 years old and I had my first experience with allergic asthma. It was very strong asthma seizure. Physicians of that times, in Czechoslovakia at least, weren't as aware of hay fever. My doctor let me take antibiotics because it looked for him like infection. A few days later I started to have problems with breathing. At night I passed out on WC and I remember some walking around house. It was night in astral like it was in physical dimension. Everything was realistic. But there weren't my parents in house nor siblings. And outside there weren't animals or humans. I remember that I was also in observant and passive state. Mother found me and she used cold water to bring me back... and then I was with my father to visit some of his friends who was physician. I got big injection of antihistamine and I was in a few minutes all right. My brush with death If there wasn't for that father's friend, maybe I would die that night.

      I don't know... Am I doing something wrong? I tried to find guide in astral in past, but I wasn't successful, it would help if I have someone who could help me there... Nobody didn't come on my calls. Therefore I had only one way- to try and to figure things by myself. I have many experiences... but not many references of similar experiences. Things I read on internet are often not similar to my experiences. Sometimes they are contradictory. Either my detached state of mind is necessary because I do something different than "normal" OBE or I'm doing an astral projection but different then other people?

      I think it isn't really very important, but I would still like to know what is "wrong" with me
      Last edited by Psionik; 02-01-2014 at 11:54 PM.

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      Spoiler for For Sageous:
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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      The thought 'bubbles' would be in a 'space' defined by the relationships between the thoughts. Within that space, I don't think that communication can be instantaneous, because that would mean all points are equidistant, in which case the thoughts don't have surfaces, or any other relational dynamics.
      I hadn't thought of that. I was speaking metaphorically about that bubble; not really picturing it as a physical thing encircling the earth as much as a cohesive collection of energy existing outside of the physical realm. So the points, to me, would have all been equidistant, and the thoughts had no surfaces or any other relational dynamics. But they must have those things, mustn't they? Even if thought energy exists outside our known physical parameters, it must still exist somehow. So you make a good point. I was using the bubble and pool imagery metaphorically, with no concern for the actual form of these thought forms, but I suppose I should have. Or not... do you think a novel form of energy like thought energy as I described it could exist without surfaces or other relational dynamics?

      The 'space' isn't our physical space though, since those aren't quite the same relationships. So I think there must be a kind of time in that other space, though it's not the same as our time. And it connects or projects to 'physical' time in a way that's not possible to understand if trying to think exclusively in terms of that time.
      I'm not sure I understand this. Does this answer my question above, saying that thought energy must have dimension, even if that dimension is unrelated to ours? Well, not unrelated, because it comes from ours and we, by being the creators of thought energy are necessarily connected to it; but unrelated in terms of physical law. So maybe there are surfaces and other relational dynamics after all, but they are different enough from ours that its dynamics might allow for communication that we would interpret as instantaneous. Or am I just babbling?


      Our 'immortality' thread seems to have been a study in using logic to draw almost arbitrary conclusions from flawed premises. From some of the same logic, for instance, it follows that what is real is only what you're aware of, and destroying something is wrong only if you get caught. No doubt my premises and conclusions here are messed up too, so I can only hope it's a tiny step in the right direction.
      Not so much flawed premises as thought-experiment-level imaginary premises. I suppose this thread's premises are in pretty much the same boat, but I would very much like to avoid arbitrary conclusions based on beliefs, hopes, or anecdotal proofs. I would much rather have this idea of mine shredded with valid rationale than supported or opposed with dogmatic presupposition. In other words, we don't need to follow the route of the immortality thread (or the matter can't be destroyed or created thread, for that matter) here, as long as we remember that the premise is just some shit I came up with that might be that first step toward understanding how shared dreaming could work -- even if the next 50 steps lead away from that premise.

    15. #15
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      I completely disagree with the words timeless and spaceless. I don't believe anything that doesn't exist in space or time. If it's nowhere and nowhen, then it's naught. Time is just not an illusion, it's just the timeline of events. The future does not yet exist. Well, that is what is intuitive to me. I don't understand people who try to say time or space are illusions. Anyhow, this doesn't prevent weird space physics. According to new physical theories, there might be more dimensions (as in instead of living in a 3D world, the world is actually 10D). I don't know if you'll all saw the ant-paper experiment. An ant walking on a piece of paper is like a 2D entity walking in a 2D world, but us, living in the 3D world, we can bend that paper so that the ends touch and the ant will disappear from one end of the 2D world to the other end. In such a way. maybe thought energy can use these bends to travel through the 4th dimension or what you call it and therefore reach someone that is much further in space.

      About cohesiveness... I'd like to share one of my metaphors for united consciousness. Sometimes, I like to think that there is only one consciousness which I represent as a big sphere of water. Below, there are a few empty glasses side by side, those are human bodies. Then I imagine the sphere of water slowly flowing down until it hits the cups and the water fills them, the rest spilling to the sides. I imagine this is us now, only aware of our body, our cup. but one day, when we die, when the cup breaks, the water will spill and join the rest of the spilled water and be united again and the cycles goes on like that. This metaphor makes me feel connected to all the other beings of this world. Anyways, I can just imagine, if the cups are full and the water is just above the side and touches water from other cups, then, it can be reconnected with any of the other bodies.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      I completely disagree with the words timeless and spaceless. I don't believe anything that doesn't exist in space or time. If it's nowhere and nowhen, then it's naught. Time is just not an illusion, it's just the timeline of events. The future does not yet exist. Well, that is what is intuitive to me. I don't understand people who try to say time or space are illusions.
      Well that's good, because I don't think anyone here (at least not me) is talking about spacelessness or timelessness. Though I would argue (and have argued here) that time might not exist, the perception of time certainly does, as does the apparent directional progression of events and change that drives that perception. The same goes for space. Indeed, I think Shadowofwind just got me to take it a step further and expand my original concept to assume that thought energy must exist in some cooperation with space and time, even if we do not yet understand how it might do so.

      So no worries; I think we're trying to stay within the realm of reason here -- or at least somewhere near its borders! Even if thought energy and this bubble of cohesive energy we're discussing might exist independently of, or in a state of exemption from, the known laws of physics, it doesn't imply timelessness or spacelessness but rather that there may some new,as yet unknown laws that need to be written into the physics texts to define this new energy.

      Plus, to me it would be much better if the nature of thought energy and shared dreaming nestled neatly within the Standard Model itself, because that would only make it easier to establish techniques for shared dreaming that work every time. I have no interest in chatting about some mystical thing we mortals could never understand that exists completely outside reality itself. That invites a more religious than practical solution, which, though it causes fun conversation, doesn't further our understanding of, well, anything.

      Anyhow, this doesn't prevent weird space physics. According to new physical theories, there might be more dimensions (as in instead of living in a 3D world, the world is actually 10D). I don't know if you'll all saw the ant-paper experiment. An ant walking on a piece of paper is like a 2D entity walking in a 2D world, but us, living in the 3D world, we can bend that paper so that the ends touch and the ant will disappear from one end of the 2D world to the other end. In such a way. maybe thought energy can use these bends to travel through the 4th dimension or what you call it and therefore reach someone that is much further in space.
      Agreed, and good example! Thought energy might even occupy its own dimension that disregards the ant's paper altogether. Or not, of course; we simply don't know yet.

      About cohesiveness... I'd like to share one of my metaphors for united consciousness. Sometimes, I like to think that there is only one consciousness which I represent as a big sphere of water. Below, there are a few empty glasses side by side, those are human bodies. Then I imagine the sphere of water slowly flowing down until it hits the cups and the water fills them, the rest spilling to the sides. I imagine this is us now, only aware of our body, our cup. but one day, when we die, when the cup breaks, the water will spill and join the rest of the spilled water and be united again and the cycles goes on like that. This metaphor makes me feel connected to all the other beings of this world. Anyways, I can just imagine, if the cups are full and the water is just above the side and touches water from other cups, then, it can be reconnected with any of the other bodies.
      That's a great metaphor, one which truly makes its point clear. I myself would flip it around, though, and say that we, the cups, are filling ourselves with the "water" of sentient thought energy, and that water is overflowing the cups in a cohesive manner that forms that sphere. That might sound like a totally opposite perspective, but I'm not so sure. After all, whether the united consciousness existed before us and we spilled from it or that we created it from the spillage of our conscious activity really doesn't matter that much, because either way there's still a united consciousness.
      Last edited by Sageous; 02-02-2014 at 05:21 AM.
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      Now, how do we make this discussion practical?

      If we say thought energy is cohesive and touches all other touch energy or is a mode of communication between all entity, what is it that directs this thought energy? Is it simply a random event where we are forced to enjoy are shared dreams with all the other conscious entities of this world randomly or can we "tune" ourselves to specific entities? And what does it mean to tune yourself to some other person? Does it mean to think of that person or to objectively feel what they are feeling at that precise moment?

      What about Sorcer's post about ephemeral entities who like to spend time beside people of similar temperament. Would these entities, trying to stay closer to people of similar temperament cause the attraction of people with similar temperament. I personally have a hard time intuitively believing in such entities but maybe thought energy or whatever might exist could create a stronger bridge between people that are more similar, that resonate more in their inner experience of the world.

      This would imply that when dream sharing, you should not focus on thinking about the person but thinking and feeling what that person is probably thinking and feeling at that moment? Or just being the same type of person.

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      If we say thought energy is cohesive and touches all other touch energy or is a mode of communication between all entity, what is it that directs this thought energy? Is it simply a random event where we are forced to enjoy are shared dreams with all the other conscious entities of this world randomly or can we "tune" ourselves to specific entities? And what does it mean to tune yourself to some other person? Does it mean to think of that person or to objectively feel what they are feeling at that precise moment?
      Good questions all, and for now questions which can only be answers with guesses and experimentation, not hard knowledge.

      I have no idea what directs thought energy after it is produced, or if anything even can direct it. It could be that thought energy remains unattended as it accumulates through your lifetime, and only becomes "directable" after you die and your self-awareness migrates from your dead physical body to that accumulation... But that's definitely not what we're discussing here, so I think, in the name of making shared dreaming work (or explaining why it does work), we must assume that thought energy can be directed, or at least tapped by us. I think it might be wise to look at thought energy in terms of broadcast and reception, where we all are always broadcasting something to everyone, and the sharing becomes a matter of reception. That way we don't have to imagine ways to target individuals directly, or how to aim our thoughts in particular directions, both of which seem impossible to me.

      So, in the context of attempted shared dreaming, the intentional broadcast of thought energy could be considered as not random at all, even though you are sending your message to everyone, and to virtually everyone that message will seem like so much more (unnoticed) random background noise. But if your dreaming partner, who is receptive to your thought, catches and understands it, then suddenly things aren't so random, I think.

      So yes, I suppose a concept to consider here is how we "tune" our attention to our partner's broadcast.

      I think what it means to tune yourself to another's broadcast has yet to be determined. I would assume it must be done on a metaphoric level, perhaps infused with emotion, empathy or compassion. I don't know. But I do have a strong feeling that you cannot tune yourself to someone simply because you shouted for them -- thought energy (indeed, no energy) speaks your language, so just saying commands or pronouncing desires would have little effect.

      Again, what it means to the tuners to do this tuning still remains to be seen (or defined), but that is an excellent base question for figuring all this stuff out. Being intimately aware of what your partner is thinking about or feeling at the time of the sharing would indeed probably help the tuning process, I think; if a specific technique were ever developed, I have a feeling that these aspects would be very high-profile.

      What about Sorcer's post about ephemeral entities who like to spend time beside people of similar temperament. Would these entities, trying to stay closer to people of similar temperament cause the attraction of people with similar temperament. I personally have a hard time intuitively believing in such entities but maybe thought energy or whatever might exist could create a stronger bridge between people that are more similar, that resonate more in their inner experience of the world.
      I don't think you have to worry about ephemeral entities. If they exist (and I'm obliged to suppose they could, given my note above about consciousness-activated pools of thought energy: poorly activated, or very weak pools of energy activated by inattentive individuals could be "wandering" the bubble with little guidance or self-awareness), they are there now, and would have about as much influence on you now as when you are "tuning." At worst, I suppose you might meet some new souls in your dream-sharing searches, which doesn't seem a great obstacle to me.

      And yes, a corollary of all this might be that people of similar dispositions, emotions, or thought patterns might find it easier, perhaps unavoidable, to merge their pools and share their dreams. Who knows? This might already be happening, and we're just not aware of it (so be nice to those DC's, as they could be "real" people! .

      This would imply that when dream sharing, you should not focus on thinking about the person but thinking and feeling what that person is probably thinking and feeling at that moment? Or just being the same type of person.
      Yes, it would.

      It also implies that, if you can create a metaphor or feeling that aligns with your partner's or target's broadcast, you ought to be able to receive it. So, even though I think intimacy seems the primary route for sharing, you probably can still do it on an intellectual basis, as long as both sharers have a mutual image or feeling on which to key. For instance, two people who, say, went to school together years ago, but barely know each other now, might be able to assemble enough mutually similar energy to recognize a broadcast -- indeed, an individual might be able to receive meaningful broadcasts from folks who had no intention to share, simply because those broadcasts carried meaningful, tunable, energy.


      Interesting questions, Occipitalred -- I especially like the ones that raise more questions, especially because this is one field that is still very much in the asking phase.
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    19. #19
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      I think time exists, otherwise there would be no freedom, and no reason for the experience of time. People get stoned and experience timelessness, and lack the perspective to reconcile the two experiences. Or they recognize that our experience of time is a projection or simplification of a more subtle reality, and so call it illusory without understanding what it is an approximation of. People do that with choice too, and I've made that error with astral experiences.

      More later.
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    20. #20
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      What you said about the fact that we affect all other entities and it is only a matter of receptivity rather than focused broadcasting makes much sense.
      It reminds me of suns and planets, how their field of gravity affects every other planet in the universe even those at a distance of infinity (although the value of their effect are similar to 0.000000000000000000000 … 00000000000001 Newton). But if the “force” that thought energy causes is stronger than the force of gravity, we could potentially even broadcast to extraterrestrial life… but surely broadcast to anyone on the face of the earth.
      Now, I’d like to bring something more tangible to prove this. A while ago, I began to wonder about thoughts and what they were. Were my thoughts limited to thoughts of language? If I didn’t know language, could I still think? And talking to this with others, I soon realized that we also think in pictures and such. So I started thinking of each and every sense I had. I would imagine pictures. They would always appear in front of me and whatever I did, I could not see thought imagine behind myself unless my thought eyes were behind my body but that is cheating. Whatever you do, thought pictures are always in front of you. Thought odors are in your nose and thought tastes in your mouth. If you move your arm in your thought, you will feel it where your arm would be. Now, the interesting part. Sounds. I tried to imagine sounds and I soon realized that they all existed in my mouth. I tried hearing these thought sounds but they were all spoken thoughts. My conclusion was that any sound that is a sound, is felt in the mouth. Try this and tell me what you experience. However, in dreams, you can hear sounds in your ears and not only from your mouth. This destroyed my theory that dreams were just thoughts made very vivid because of the absence of stimuli. If dreams are not thoughts, then, they are stimuli. What causes these stimuli if not our own thoughts? They could be activated by these thought energies coming from ourselves and all other sentient beings in the universe, where mostly those that “Tune” with you are received.
      Now, in practice, someone that wants to have a shared dream with another person, according to my opinions and what has been brought forward would be that:
      1. The two people concerned (or more) decide on an event, a place, a thought that they all shared. For example, two friends could decide to choose a park and say they would focus on the swings. So when they would be ready to share dreams, they would have to be in that park, walk around there, especially around that swing. Also, they should choose an opinion they both had there. Let’s say they both were talking about their love for painting, and then they could think about that emotion beside the swing. Furthermore, they should imagine they were the other person in a way to create a sense of empathy and compassion.
      2. These two people would have to do this exactly at the same time. This means, they would both have to be great lucid dreamers who lucid dreamed every night, in most of their dreams. Once in the dream they would have to go to the park, beside the swings, think they are the other person and think about their love for painting.
      3. Most likely, it wouldn’t work because it wouldn’t be at the same time. But if they were good lucid dreamers and they did this frequently, it would most likely happen and having that experience would most likely strengthen their empathy given they would both have been in the same dream.
      This seems complicated but it explains why barely anyone can ever really do it.

      Just to add to all these thoughts, I cannot imagine that all DCs are actually true people because I often dream of people I know, and I know it's not actually them. So at least some DCs must be soulless... unless they are other people that take the appearance that I give them...
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    21. #21
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      I think when trying to share a dream, some people focus too hard on trying to synchronize their thought and activity with the other person. Maybe this is desirable if you can already easily share a dream, and you're trying to learn to control it better, but otherwise it imposes unnecessary and mostly unnatural constraints that make it harder. You're not trying to send or receive a signal. That would be how things work in the temporal world where people are separated by space and you can't share dreams.

      If your mind is open, you are truly naked, you can't hide anything from other people or from yourself. If you're not comfortable with that, then you're trying not to share a dream, even while you try to share a dream.

      I think the existence of minds that are not tied to particular bodies follows as a consequence of contact between our minds. If there were no contact, then your mind would be completely contained within your body. If there is contact, then there are semi-collective, semi-subconscious minds that move and change, incorporating aspects of individual human minds. If you are open, these minds will coordinate the shared dream, if you care about something they care about.

      For me, identity is centrally important. When you think of another person, they feel some way to you. Think about that feeling. If they feel like they want you to stay out of their mind, stay out. Otherwise, accept the limited opening they give you, in relation to what they care about, and become them a little bit, real empathy. The shared dream is incidental, a side effect. It doesn't matter what they are doing when you are dreaming, you're not trying to send or receive a radio signal. Time matters in the sense that there's a 'when' to their openness to you, otherwise it is peripheral. What matters is if there's something to share that both people want shared. Aim for what is real, what you really care about, behind the things you pursue as you try to satisfy those deeper cares. What the other person is thinking at the moment matters less than what they are thinking in their heart of hearts. Temporal, mundane stuff gets shared too, which is part of what objectively proves the experience, but it's more incidental. You have to engage the part of you who knows how to share directly, and that's deeper.

      Maybe this isn't quite the right approach for you, but it's one approach that does work, at least for me. I said this as a 'how to share a dream' rather than as a 'how does shared dreaming work', but obviously the two questions are closely related.


      Three dimensional Euclidean space is a mental model of reality, things aren't 'in' that space. It models some important aspects of reality well, but other's not so well. Hyperbolic geometry helps when modeling gravity for instance. Even the idea of a fixed, integer number of dimensions is a simplification. As we recognize this sort of things more, it opens the door to new experiences.
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      I think when trying to share a dream, some people focus too hard on trying to synchronize their thought and activity with the other person. Maybe this is desirable if you can already easily share a dream, and you're trying to learn to control it better, but otherwise it imposes unnecessary and mostly unnatural constraints that make it harder. You're not trying to send or receive a signal. That would be how things work in the temporal world where people are separated by space and you can't share dreams.

      If your mind is open, you are truly naked, you can't hide anything from other people or from yourself. If you're not comfortable with that, then you're trying not to share a dream, even while you try to share a dream.

      I think the existence of minds that are not tied to particular bodies follows as a consequence of contact between our minds. If there were no contact, then your mind would be completely contained within your body. If there is contact, then there are semi-collective, semi-subconscious minds that move and change, incorporating aspects of individual human minds. If you are open, these minds will coordinate the shared dream, if you care about something they care about.

      For me, identity is centrally important. When you think of another person, they feel some way to you. Think about that feeling. If they feel like they want you to stay out of their mind, stay out. Otherwise, accept the limited opening they give you, in relation to what they care about, and become them a little bit, real empathy. The shared dream is incidental, a side effect. It doesn't matter what they are doing when you are dreaming, you're not trying to send or receive a radio signal. Time matters in the sense that there's a 'when' to their openness to you, otherwise it is peripheral. What matters is if there's something to share that both people want shared. Aim for what is real, what you really care about, behind the things you pursue as you try to satisfy those deeper cares. What the other person is thinking at the moment matters less than what they are thinking in their heart of hearts. Temporal, mundane stuff gets shared too, which is part of what objectively proves the experience, but it's more incidental. You have to engage the part of you who knows how to share directly, and that's deeper.

      Maybe this isn't quite the right approach for you, but it's one approach that does work, at least for me. I said this as a 'how to share a dream' rather than as a 'how does shared dreaming work', but obviously the two questions are closely related.


      Three dimensional Euclidean space is a mental model of reality, things aren't 'in' that space. It models some important aspects of reality well, but other's not so well. Hyperbolic geometry helps when modeling gravity for instance. Even the idea of a fixed, integer number of dimensions is a simplification. As we recognize this sort of things more, it opens the door to new experiences.

    23. #23
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      Shadowofwind,

      I'm not sure I understand exactly what you said but I will address the points I think you brought up.

      What I think you said:
      To share a dream, you just have to think about what a person is to you and to be opened (not feel affected by the breach in privacy).

      My problem with that:
      This sounds like a super power, where you just will things to happen. I just will to fly and I fly. I just will to communicate with a person through dreams and it happens. I personally need a theory where we are less in control with the experience, where it is nature that brings the tuned minds together versus us reaching for each other. I just can't imagine that we are powerful enough to do telepathy given our obvious mental limitations at this present stage of our evolution. I think that if dream sharing is possible, there must be a natural force making it easier for us or else it would not be achievable. Given this, I can't imagine thinking of what a person's identity is to you will connect you with them because your experience of them is very different than their own experience of themselves. If you think of someone as a confident person, they might actually be very self-conscious, just really good at appearing confident. That's why I think it is more powerful to put yourself in someone's shoes than judge them if you want to create a connection that some natural force will match.


      What I felt like you said but I think you wanted to say something else:
      Time is not important with shared dreaming except for the part where the person must be open at that time.

      My problem with that:
      Here, I just want to talk say why I think time is crucial with dream sharing. If you think that dream sharing is timeless, you're technically saying that you can time travel. Let's say I dream share at 9:00 and you dream share with me 6 hours later. In the dreams, we are together at the same time, so I can wake up before your dream share and then tell you about it before you even do it which could cause any of the time travelling paradox. It doesn't work. If you're going to dream share, it has to be at the same time. Now, maybe it is true that you do not need to be tuning exactly at the moment of dreamsharing. Perhaps just frequently tuning together will naturally bring you together in a dream as long as you dream share at the same time.

      Sorry if I sound rude. That was not my intention. I'm just writing all of this really fast.

    24. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      cause any of the time travelling paradox.
      Actually, if you think about it, time traveling through dreams in this way does not create many time traveling paradoxes because the nature of time inside the dream is seperated from the time-space continuum in our universe. You can't actually make any physical changes on the earth or cause deaths. Robert Monroe ran into a lot of trouble with time travel though, he describes doing OBEs about meeting his past/future self and some force stopped him and made it impossible to come into contact with his own self. His guide interestingly remarked on that as well and said that a true paradox simply cannot occur in real life.
      Last edited by Dthoughts; 02-02-2014 at 11:37 PM.

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      I think shared dreaming may rely on acceptance of another persons energy and an agreed joining of energy. That along with energy frequency and things like that. An example of what I mean would be a town where everyone has a passworded safe house. The only way to get into that other persons safe house would be to be allowed in or break in which wold be a lot harder. When I shared a dream it was with my best friend. We have an intense bond and seem to be in a similar mental sate all the time and have the same thoughts as well. That bond may be something that helps energy connect. We were sleeping in the same room and went to sleep at around the same, that might have helped help too if the proximity has anything to do with how quickly the energy interacts.

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