I posted this on Skype and forgot to post it here. I think it's interesting and well, if you want to take a look and share your opinions on it here you have it.
WE DIE TO REMEMBER WHAT WE LIVE TO FORGET.
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I posted this on Skype and forgot to post it here. I think it's interesting and well, if you want to take a look and share your opinions on it here you have it.
WE DIE TO REMEMBER WHAT WE LIVE TO FORGET.
Downloaded, thank you!
That article was a tough slog. The author is completely unconvincing to me. He does not seem very confident of his own insights. Mostly he offers quotes from others to validate his perspective. His own personal accounts are only a few pages and most of what he says has been said many times by many others. He offers very little that is original or profound.
One could say that his perspective is so commonplace because it must be universally true, but it could also be that he is merely repeating the most favorite delusion of human ego - the desired belief that we will not die. It all could be true, or not. I desired it to be true for decades and wrote many diatribes like this author did. Over time I have learned more about neurology and psychology and it seems much more likely that what this author writes is simply an ego dream based on fear of death and grandiosity.
What do you think, Astaroth? You didn't say.
JJ
I think the beliefs are mostly made up. They resonate because they are partially true, but to some extent they're definitely not true, and since it's based largely on speculation and vague feelings that can't be sorted out very well.
I think I know that something survives death, because I know that I extend beyond my body even during life. But what that is I can't say. I think most of the things that people imagine they will have after death belong to the body. I think the things we know when we're dead are more similar to what we know in deep sleep than they are to anything else in our experience. I think I probably survive as an individual, sort of, but I say that because of characteristics of my thought which don't merge seemlessly with who other people are. If I have a soul that's some kind of invisible substance I'm not currently aware of it. I think that people misinterpret their astral experiences.
I do not completely agree with the article. There're a few things I can't think of. That recurring theme of the cyclical existence has been in my mind since I started questioning reality and it gained strenght as I tried psychodelics and saw and experienced things that couldn't been explained with words. A thing that has always frustrated me was not being able to think or reason about the very beginning or the end, it's something that has always ended up giving me headache. That's not the point anyway. I found that article and scared the hell out of me because I had never really thought that I could have been here a million times before. Not having any control freaks me out.
Besides all that I'd need to figure out a few things, for example, it says that you die and then you're born again into you very same life, so you go back to when you were a child. What I am trying to say, which is even more difficult as I can't explain myself in a proper way in english, is that you're living here with other people which are also living their own lives, and then you die and go back to the beginning to live the exact reality in a different time and space? So there would be an infinite numbers of reality for every consciousness, right? But then comes to my mind the thought that there's only one ''consciousness'' which is repeated over and over, and the others are just projections or fragments of one consciousness, which also appears in the text mentioned as God playing hide-and-seek. That thought seems too weird for me, even thought this whole idea is by itself quite strange. Just my thoughts on it.
You're just on the tip of the iceberg as far as thoughts like this go. Many of them logically do not make sense, but suspending disbelief allows you to come up with some pretty creative thoughts. However, these thoughts shouldn't seem too weird, what's weird about them? Just that they've never occurred to you before? Have you every thought that, from one moment to the next, there is never a way you could prove you have not wound up in a different time or space, or a different multiverse, and currently the only you are experiencing is dictated by your mind's emotional responses to the scenarios going on in your life and the decisions you make? Following the idea of karma just for fun, you could imagine that, with the way it seems like things happen for a reason sometimes, that you are actually led to a more positive or negative multiverse (by this I mean people will start to react to you differently and remember different things) based on your decisions and how bad or good they are for you? What if this explains why people have such different recollections of the same events? Because that version of them was in a different multiverse and the same event that occurred slightly different for them, and for everyone else for that matter.
That's just one example. Like I said, these ideas don't logically make sense but are fascinating to entertain in your head because the implications. Not to mention they sometimes give rise to other ideas that do make more logical sense, and also allow you to keep your mind fresh and not so closed off to the possibility of things we take for granted being true or false, as being false or true. I know that most people don't think like this very often and it's very disappointing knowledge to have. Try and open yourself to go deeper. The weirder it feels, the better. Reality doesn't work like we think it does, and that's okay.
Hello err'body, I'm the writer of the paper. :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by JJFrank
I am happy to see that some of you are panning it; I find this extremely helpful and wish to discuss some alternative points of view if you are down to civilly hash-out some cosmological ideas. I have been researching quite a bit about cosmology over the past year and have yet to update my paper on that side of things.
But first, from the paper:
"As a general preface before going any further, please let it be duly noted that I am acutely aware of the highly speculative nature of this text. I do not wish to be taken unequivocally, as I have remained as objective as possible when considering the congruence of this idea with reality. I openly admit that my subjective conclusions could be completely off the mark. To me, the premise of the Eternal Recurrence has become a provocative thought experiment – not an ideation that I am futilely attempting to validate with anecdotal proof, as I am most aware that no such absolute answer exists in regards to the question herein posed (unless, of course, a truly quantum leap in scientific understanding emerges). The following, if read as a psychological treatise masquerading as a scientific truth, will most certainly be digested as a most sour and unpalatable theory at best. However, if looked upon with a healthy sense of skepticism and an open mind, this theory can be very thought provoking indeed. To those who have experienced particular moments in their lives that give weight to such thinking, the idea takes on a peculiar psychological momentum that is quite uncanny; such moments are discussed in the ensuing pages. For those that dismiss this central idea immediately off-hand, you may simply stop here."
I am a fence-sitter on the subject of the after-death state. At the beginning, I thought I was mainlining dogma straight from the Godhead. Now, I have integrated/objectified my experiences and find them to be interesting meditations on cosmology and the context of life - nothing more. I have received over a hundred emails from individuals thanking me for taking the time to write about my experiences, because it ultimately helped them integrate their own experiences via my alternative frame of reference, therefore steering them away from schizoid (megalomaniacal) interpretations. To know that others have experienced the very same thing is very important in integration.
The tendency for messianic interpretation is very high for individuals with little frame of reference; other people just think they're going fucking nuts, which was the boat I was in. I was an atheist and suddenly, during my trips, I began "hearing" a "telepathic dialogue" that was like a broken record: "I am God. The One, the All and Nothing." I chose outright rejection at first. I stopped tripping because I thought I "went too far." Then, every once and awhile, I would partake again, and once again, the dialogue returned and began elaborating during my experiences. I danced a fine-line with insanity; of this, I am acutely aware. Hence my love for Carl Jung.
If the experience is a delusion, it is a most incredible one and a repeatable one at that (the consensus of NDE research is quite astounding if you are unfamiliar with the literature). At the very least, I have been able to help others integrate their experiences by sharing my own. I openly "dismiss" my own ideas because I do not wish for people to become dogmatic. I openly admit that I was once lost in ignorance. My only aim is to help others so they don't have to go through the naive, misguided, "ultimate search for truth" that I did during my integration.
For me, the journey of life can be both tail-chase and ascension, for lack of a better term.
I find myself sitting on the fence, and my balls hurt.
I think that the drugs have enabled you to psychically tap into other people's religious beliefs. This demonstrates that our minds are somehow interrelated, but in other regards doesn't validate the truth of those beliefs.
As far as me tapping into the collective unconscious during my experiences, I think that that is an absolute given. This doesn't, however, "invalidate" my experience as a trivial borrowing; the archetypes that were "presented" were specific and cohesive, lending to the potential of their autonomy, i.e. objectivity, to human thought, such as mathematics. Again, potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowofwind
If we evolved from a quantum state nearly 14 billion years ago and as such, are an entangled whole, then the idea of Oneness/Timelessness as an archetype is not arbitrary, in my opinion. Have you ever read about Wheeler-Dewitt Quantum Cosmology? Mind-blowing stuff.
We are the Universe, the question is whether or not this allows us some kind of experience of Eternity, immortality, recurrence, or just "one and done" existence.
The Eternity of the Universe is interesting, because a lot of data shows that the Universe cannot be past-eternal, but it may be future-eternal, which arguably is the same thing. We could live in a multiverse via chaotic eternal inflation, of which the Universe is a growing fractal. We could live in the Many Worlds of quantum mechanics, of which everything that - within reason - can happen, will happen, forever. We could live in the eternal loop of a bouncing (expanding and contracting) Universe via loop quantum gravity.
Or the Universe could expand into heat death/or freeze. "End" of creation.
I find it interesting that a lot of our leading cosmological models allow for an eternal Universe of sorts. My psychological conjecture on top of that is not an argument, but an observation which I know to be utterly subjective, even if my observation is being digested by inherited archetypes. I can assure you that the psychedelic experience has plenty of novelty - ineffable things that I could never English. From DMT I "learned" that the Universe is an infinite fractal of sorts, but I'm still skeptical.
Al,Quote:
Originally Posted by Fence
Its good to hear from you here. You seem fairly aware of the potential that your experiences may be pure silliness, and still enamored with the possibility that you (we) may be god.
You seem to have looked at much literature on the subject. Have you looked into the possibility that what you love about your drug experiences is similar to what drug addicts love about getting high?
I personally believe that it is likely that we are god, that god is simply the totality of all existence, and being part of that totality we are all one, temporarily experiencing separation consciousness. I don't get giddy about that perspective because it doesn't change my day to day life. Its just an idea layered over everyday existence.
It would seem to me that theorizing is only useful if it shows a better way to live. Lofty theories about quantum entanglement to me just seem like mental-eroticism. For example, if we really are all god, then why can't you bring unlimited wealth to yourself? Surely that would be a useful practical application that would be simple enough for a god-aware person at one with all. Think of all the good you could do for others in the world.
I read that the chemicals in drugs do not create our experience of being high, but instead they only induce the body to release the natural chemicals that are already part of our complex neural anatomy. If this is true, then you should be able to recreate the high experience directly, without drugs. Once you learn to do that, you should be able to teach others to do it. That would be useful application.
To my perspective, I am glad you have had the experience that you had. It sounds like it was fun. I would like to hear what you have done with it that makes it different from the experience of any other stoner.
JJ
But you didn't get there by thought, you got there by tripping. How did the archetypes get developed into something specific and cohesive? This isn't inherent in the objective nature of what is perceived, someone else did it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fence
To illustrate what I mean, consider a ball, objectively round. It looks round to you because you have a lens in your eye to focus it, a visual cortex to process it into an impression, and experience that informs how you do that. It doesn't just happen suddenly by grace, a billion years of evolution went into making this possible, along with your childhood experience perceiving objects, without which you would be blind. And that amounts to a type of thinking. Religious intuition depends on that groundwork. And to the extent that the groundwork is flawed, the intuition will be wrong, despite the appearance of cohesion in those limited aspects that were imagined.
I don't see how you're in a position to assure anyone of novelty. New to you, I can take your word for that. But nothing you have said so far is even remotely novel, and ineffability is a cop out. Mystics claim all sorts of ineffable experiences, but for you it is still a trivial borrowing if you share those experiences by sharing their mental space. And actually everything is ineffable, there is nothing in the word 'cat' for instance that communicates anything of the nature of cat, yet we find a way to communicate anyway. You can communicate your new or novel insights if you have any, just try and a few of us will read your mind enough to understand you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fence
DMT users are generally big on fractals, but fractal intuitions are grounded in difficult work that mathematicians have been doing since the late 70's. The mathematics exists in the abstract without that work, but it comes into form for us through that work. Religious intuition, in my experience, can precede the work, but it still depends on it, and comes much easier in the years succeeding that work. DMT users several hundred years ago would not have experienced the fractal nature of reality in the way they seem to now. This isn't to suggest that what is shown in those experiences is invalid. What I'm suggesting is that the experiences are grounded in other people's understanding, and that the strength and power of the experiences does little to help validate or invalidate their content. I make this claim for three reasons: 1) I have never seen anything described by a hallucinogen user that I was not already aware of through other means. 2) What is described typically has glaring internal inconsistencies that are obvious to someone who gained similar knowledge through other means. 3) My intuition is subject to these same limitations.
Maybe its not clear what my point is. I point out a huge limitation with hallucinogen based exploration which is by self-selection generally not obvious to drug using mystics. I'm not trying to make a judgment about whether or not this limitation more than offsets the value that your experiences have had for you.
derpQuote:
Originally Posted by JJFrank
honestly, I think people misinterpret all astral projections. I think its just a person getting a whacked-up Cognitive mixed with the Spiritual.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowofwind
No responses. :D
I feel like this belongs in the Inner Sanctum... anyway I didn't read through the whole thing, but I did have a weird psychedelic experience where I also felt that I am, was, and will be living through this same life of mine for eternity. Just infinitely living through this same life over and over again, with nothing beyond it. I'm not sure if this is showing that its actually what is taking place, or more of a figment of my imagination. But I know I felt this before I had read this thread, and it was a new idea to me at the time. And apparently this idea has also been elaborated upon before.
I'm not so sure this is really the case though, as it seems similar to thought-loops on psychedelics. And thought-loops in turn can be traced back to brain functions being altered by the substance and its interaction with brain chemistry. At least for me, thought-loops can be deceptive since it'll seem like you are literally "stuck" in a reoccurring frame of timespace, and that nothing else exists outside of this timespace. I've read online that people experience doing actions over and over again, like continually going from a backyard to the back door and repeating itself x number of times. Couldn't this same phenomenon apply to a much broader span of time like an lifetime? Since these are psychedelics that are being referenced. So I'm just not sure what to make of this infinitely repeating lifetime idea since I've just experienced it once and it seems so similar to thought-loops.
Edit:
In response to the thread title though, I don't know. I think there's a lot to be said of Eastern traditions and religions in relation to reincarnation and after death realms. I think its as others here have said, there is a lot of interconnectivity and there will always be threads of truth that weave through these spiritual texts or wisdom. This may be what the article is saying, but I think that we have amnesia so that we can continue to learn and grow in our own ways. Whether or not we are aware of spiritual things, we still move through life and go through struggles. If we're talking about karma, then we still work on karma whether we are aware of the concept of karma or not. I just think these mysteries extend far into the afterlife, and that our "not remembering" is just part of our human condition here on Earth. I suppose some people can remember more than others, but I think that the stuff we "die to remember" is already known here on Earth and its written and spoken all around us.
When we die, we experience our entire life all over again as a single interactive moment; there is no time, there is only a 4th dimensional block of your life played back simultaneously like a movie. Each event is played back as a single moment and you feel the emotionality of every person involved and how your morality played out. If you managed to cultivate Love and Humility in the best way you could (when you were able), then you are bathed in Love, Oneness, and Eternity. This experience feels like forever, but "after" you experience it, you are then left with a choice. You may either choose to forget everything and be reborn into the selfsame life immediately OR you may choose retain everything and spend time in the 4 dimensional block of Eternity doing whatever you please; however, as you can imagine, you will eventually get "bored" and choose to forget everything anyway and start over all over again.
So, yes, everything is paradoxical; everyone is an illusion, a projection of our own collective mind; however, you are also an illusion as well. The entire Universe is a single entity of energy and consciousness is the ability to be aware of this absolute fact.
If you die and were a repugnant individual, then you will experience purgatory in Eternity until the Universe collapses and starts over (roughly hundreds of billions to trillions of years). Then you will experience the very same life all over again and the cycle starts over.
If you die and were an individual who tried their best to achieve Love and Humility, then you will be given the option, the choice, to either forget everything immediately and start over OR you may sail off into the 4th dimensional Eternity and do whatever you want for as long as you want, but eventually, as I said before, you will get bored and choose to forget everything, just to start all over again.
That is what I have experienced and seen.
Only recently have I studied enough quantum gravity and physics in general to realize that this could very well be on the money.
As far as reincarnation: We are all One entity, only it is that since we live as subjective individuals that we repeat the existence as a singular entity, both as a collective whole and as a subjective state of quantum consciousness.
Reading through this thread and article more, I think I can see where you are coming from now. It seems that you have put the information and experiences you have gathered into a cohesive framework.
But I also see some pitfalls that it holds, and like others have said here, relating this spirituality stuff directly to science poses issues that I see. Specifically with the quantum loop gravity. Don't get me wrong, I would like for science and things seen in psychedelics to ultimately come together. But I just don't see that happening at this point. Correct me if I'm wrong Dream Views, but I still don't think our present technology is able to observe planck length scales and smaller. So while the inclusion of quantum loop gravity within the article can be interesting to think about, I don't think that it proves anything either way. If I understand quantum loop gravity correctly, it involves a geometric framework of reality with discrete points/nodes which act as the base substance of matter. And the "loop" part of it has to do with a diversion from big bang theories, to the universe "bouncing" back and forth instead. Keeping in mind that this is my very basic understanding of quantum loop gravity, I'm doubtful that this can be applied to spirituality or these psychedelic experiences since it relies on specific interpretations of shamanistic phenomenon. We would all have to agree and assume that the notions of what you are saying is true for everything to fit within this framework. I realize that you already admitted that you don't assume all the answers, but I think including anything science-related (especially when it involves abstract theoretical physics) is just setting yourself up for disaster. I could see it working better as a spiritually focused text with its various pieces of wisdom from Nietzche, Alan Watts, Huxley, and so forth. But you'd better back up and explain the physics stuff so much more if you hope to include it solidly in this article, otherwise it just won't hold together.
Another problem with including quantum loop gravity, is that you'd have to show how the mathematics of it relate to these spiritual experiences of oneness. For this argument, I am going to assume that the mathematical number that would appear at these Eternal, Oneness level of enlightenment (and I say enlightenment here loosely) would be infinity, since this is basically at the "highest" level spiritually. There is no separation anymore, and it all is realized. This gets into the realms of shamanism. Where the problem here lies, is that science has got issues with an mathematical answer of infinity. I'm not a scientist or theoretical physicist, but it seems to me that infinity cannot be experimented with or observed, since it is an infinite amount. Can quantum loop gravity, or any other theory, account for this hypothetical mathematically infinite answer which arises at these levels of God and the eternal moment? Quantum loop gravity seems to point to a T.O.E, but even then it would still be a starting point to unraveling the mysteries of the universe.
So basically I just don't see this relationship of quantum loop gravity working, because of these reasons: science does bad with mathematical infinity, quantum loop gravity and its mathematical functions would have to be related to these spiritual insights, and that this very basic definition of quantum loop gravity leaves me uncertain if it even applies to these high level spiritual realms of oneness.
As to the spiritual content, I do find it interesting as I've experienced or contemplated similar thoughts, but I've still got searching to do so I'm not 100% convinced on this stuff yet. I tend to sway in spiritual directions, but being in the "here and now" seems most important to me at the moment. And reality does seems to be a manifestation of an oneness of consciousness, in an eternal moment, but as to how this really plays out in our lives and in the afterlife still remains to be seen for me. I also may be feeling a bit of hubris saying this next part, but I personally don't see how someone can become bored after going all the way to an form of enlightenment, and then consciously choose to come back to human existence if not to teach others to love and be compassionate. I don't know, just my long-winded response, since I can definitely relate to some of the spiritual stuff but see it more as an individual point of view and erroneous in including the quantum loop gravity section.
How would you factor in sociopaths and psychopaths in this karmic "afterlife" Fence? It's a hell of alot easier to become a loving person growing up in a nice suburban family than in say... war torn Liberia..
Hi there :) Interesting theory, I am wondering about something though. You say we are born into the same life again, but what about people who died as infants to genetic disorders, etc. Would they replay the same very short life? Would it be different (no disorder, therefore a longer lifespan?) the next time around?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fence
I don't know. It's fascinating, though, especially as you claim to have had the same experience multiple times. I would like to believe we can have new lives in new bodies, with different families, and in different times, rather than the same over and over. There are people out there - children - who can recall past lives convincingly. What do you think of that?
Perhaps I am just not quite able to grasp this fully yet. In any case, thank you for sharing it. :)