I want to learn Invading Dream

StephL, I actually have some personal experience of a form of "dream sharing" with members on this forum. Not sure if they are aware.

These are some hard to explain feats of consciousness but i have had instances of meeting Danon Oneironaut and seeing WakingNomad and Atras on deep introspective psychedelic journeys.
Surely, these wrinklings of my imagination are related to dreamsharing as well.

Anecdotal data is as good as it gets here. I would define myself as Skeptic as well. I even wrote an exceptionally long post on why i believe shared dreaming is unlikely when i first visited this forum.

As for my experience, I've had an instance of *Sober* communication in which i hallucinated Danon Oneironaut in my mind's eye and had a real-live conversation with him. Followed by a dream which included Danon Oneironaut. To be seen here Maybe.. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views. Which is kind of a vague intuitive belief that the man in the dream who showed me around the Barn was actually Danon Oneironaut. It's an old dream but my memory actually filled an image for me, of him showing me around his barn. Not conclusive evidence in the least, but then again, i'm not trying to convince you of anything!

What is the god-spoken truth is that when I smoked DMT for the first time it was the image of Danon Oneironaut who showed me around a fully immersive world or dimension. His image functions as an initiatory in these realms. I do not think the mechanism is any different than Images of Shiva or Ganesh showing you around the Hindu dimensions as described in their religion. This tells me something about the possible mechanism for these experiences. Carl Jung has some literature on this form of dreaming. But i only know these things from hear-say, I have never actually delved deep into mythological writings or Carl jung for that matter.

What peaks my interest is that all these people that I have met in this hallucinatory form are all also seekers of "enlightenment". Or atleast spiritually inclined. This could mean something very special or it could just be that I look up to these people. I am not sure if that what I am talking about is even in the same realm as dreaming but what I have noticed is that it is hard to create an image of someone you haven't actually seen in real life. For instance, trying to assess a face to someone who i have never met seems impossible. When i try to assess a form of telepathic connection, all i get is feelings and images that are relative to former experiences and memories. I think that if i would try and form a Telepathic connection with you, Steph, that it is quite likely that you will appear to me as some kind of hyperdimensional-cat!! (Which would be quite awesome, lol!)

Besides that, IOSPD has some instances of good synchronistic dreams. On the surface these can be explained by shared thought-forms and interests. Like comic books. But when you really start going into details of the dream you find similarities that are unlikely the result of 'just' coincidence. But it is surely not as black-white as simply invading dreams. I think these things are very unlikely unless one is very lucid in dreams. Which i have no emperical data for myself, being such a lucid noob! :lol:

Hope i sucesfully injected a sense of light-heartedness in my post. Hehe. As a side-note. Since last week i have been actively trying to make a permanent mark on the shared dreaming-realm as imagined by IOSPD (Prontera). Except for now I have not yet released any information on what I have been doing but I hope to leave in imprint on their dreaming minds to assess validity of shared experience in a sort of double-blind study. It is surely going to be hard to prove it to anybody but myself. But who cares when you are actively having shared dreams for yourself. :alien:

One can surely hope! :bow:

You are sweet, Dthoughts, you really are.
If your heart is so much in it - all the luck with your planned study - try to be really honest with yourself and you will see.
What you describe above would be - in my view - representations of these respected members, which your mind creates for you - esp. if these members themselves are not aware of the communion having happened.
But you know how this is a possibility as well and have stated it so.
So peace be with you!

Attachment 6886

I did a bit of back and forth looking and I am pretty convinced now, that Dannon's avatar picture - which I also have on my computer - really shows a newly discovered animal: The Venezuelan Poodle Moth - thought, why not off topic this thread and give you a bigger picture of this most beautiful dream-guide animal you seem to have flying about in your dreams, Dthoughts:

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7b43870c.jpg

That's intense. I am speechless. That's one hell of an animal.
Really many thanks for sharing. that's a frigging cool animal. Looks very happy as well.

Btw, had the worst night. Fell into bad habits and drained my energy. Slept enough hours but really did not get enough rest. Not quite on-topic but ye.. Have to go now. Can't really go much into this further.

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Originally Posted by StephL

Neither is dream-sharing possible.
....
So many people are trying it, and nothing worth any notice ever came of it.
....

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Steph,

Every time I notice one of your rants about how shared dreaming is impossible, I offer to prove it to you, and every time you turn me down. I don't think its unreasonable for you to not want to share dreams, but then I can't see how its not a farce to rail against people who believe in it. Just the fact that you don't want to try it seems to show something, why the reluctance if there's nothing there? It doesn't even take any of your time, you have to sleep every night anyway, the only thing that's required is your openness. I suggest you go ahead and try it enough to convince yourself whether its real or not. Then when you're going on a tirade about the lack of evidence, you won't be in the ridiculous position of avoiding the evidence that's available to you.

I agree that Castaneda is mostly nonsense.

The Randi challenge is a dishonest publicity stunt, or else a remarkably ignorant one. They set the statistical bar so high that few scientific studies could reach it on most subjects, and they set so many constraints on the experimental conditions that they've effectively barred investigation of everything except their own straw men.

Okay - I'm up for it, shadowofwind - I wasn't really interested, since I wouldn't be convinced by the examples you have brought up in the past.
Including the precognitive dreams.
But of course - I have nothing to loose - you are hereby officially invited to visit my dreams!

Attachment 6888

How would I know, that you've been there?




Edit:
I've just been talking with my husband about it, and I said, that there would be a level of extraordinariness, which could convince me, that what might happen is not some sort of artefact. He found it silly of me to even think about it. Thinking is cheap, though - and why not while I wait and see.

In theory, I should say - it is still more probable, that somewhere deep in my mind, there is bit of a hope left - a latent wish, that there is something mythical about the world and curiosity and whatnot - and that this is, what could produce even such an exceptional experience.


I actually don't think, you would even claim to be able to cause an effect, which a total sceptic like me would accept, though.
Or better - which would seriously spark my curiosity first of all.
There could be other things of an equal power, but the actual example I brought to my husband was - have a lucid dream tonight, and a clearly autonomous DC shows up, identifies as you and we engage in some sort of information exchange.
That doesn't sound much - no password and lala - but a lot on the other hand - I'm not getting lucid lately, and DCs tend to be rather vague as well, if I do.
As said - maybe something non-lucid - but then it gets in muddy water.
And it had to be repeatable.

Thing is - everything somehow weak, would surely not lead me to throw out of the window large parts of what the scientific community and me consider our knowledge of nature, and my understanding of the world. So the motto goes: Extraordinary claims ask for extraordinary evidence.
I will always ask myself, if I could simply be subject to psychological effects first - and extensively - and maybe down to ask some experts.
But if I really were convinced - I would have found my purpose in life, actually - find out, what that was.
And if I came to see it as some sort of powerful and hopefully benign dream-madness - then I want to know, what that means.

Weell - I sort of see what my husband means as well - I will wait - but I have no hope, except it hides very, very deep.
Can't help that, it has to work without - I'm just being honest.

Ramble.. sorry.
My whole point should maybe have been - the boundaries of what I believe in, are not clearly defined and not clearly definable, even..


What I will do is report what will happen completely and honestly - as far as my not so great dream-recall enables me (good way to practise, too).
Would it be different - like easier - if I was lucid on my own devices? Would an encounter with you make me lucid?
Do I remember correctly, that what classically is meant by SD, is not exactly the way you do it?

It's sort of exciting - I can see the fun in it, too, actually!
I just really honestly think, people are wasting their time.

Not that I am happy with myself in that regard - maybe hence the motivation to care..

Steph,

I guess its put-up-or-shut-up time for me then! I'm very short of time to type, but here are a few thoughts without having time to word it all very well....

I don't think your scientific skepticism is a limiting factor here. I think you can keep your skepticism and still get a satisfactory result. You can't control the form that result will come in, and you have to be comfortable with that lack of control. But the answer will meet your standard of objective honesty, and you'll be able to agree that its unreasonable to write it off as a statistical fluke or other fallacy. I don't know whether you can get a "this is definitely real" result immediately, for me it started with "I don't know if this is real or not, but this is significant enough that I can't just dismiss it". I'm not concerned that you haven't found the anecdotes I've shared to be convincing. I haven't shared my most convincing examples with you because it would have violated the privacy of other people involved, and because you asked me to stop pushing the conversation in that direction before I got that far.

I won't be "in your dream". Some subconscious part of me/us is in you and vice versa, and this can produce effects in our dreams. The openness should be more at the level of identity, being willing to share something of who you are. If you try to keep it in your sensate imagination "at arms length" without it touching your essence, like how some people try to have romantic experiences without putting themselves at risk emotionally, it won't work as easily.

Aside from the openness, I think the strength of your curiosity is also important. But you've obviously got a fair amount of that or you wouldn't still be hanging around these shared dreaming threads after all these months. It might help to have some kind of other topic of philosophical interest to focus the experience, to help determine what the dream should be about. Something you want to know about metaphysics, or solving a problem in your interpersonal relationships, or dealing with life issues rooted in your childhood, or something else relatively 'deep' that you care about. This helps engage the part of our minds that can make the contact, its less likely to care about stupid stuff like passwords. Also, questions on lofty moral concerns helps keep us from forming inappropriate romantic attachments despite the intimacy, if that makes any sense.

One way this can play out is I'll get some specific details about you in my dreams that you haven't shared. It could go the other way too, but it wouldn't be as much of a demonstration for you that way.

I really have to go now, people are waiting for me at work.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I agree that Castaneda is mostly nonsense.

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Haven't read more than one book, surely Castaneda was one troubled individual but I woulden't go as far as to say that most of his stuff is nonsense. Deep occult mysticism is involved in and around Castaneda. And from what I understand in this vid: Robert Wagonner . Is that Castaneda is one of those figures who popularized Lucid Dreams and made LDing available for a wide audience such as this. Carlos Castaneda is responsible because he influenced these Lucid Giants such as Robert Wagonner and Stephen La Berge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf0g1YZa8co

Steph, If it is mysticism and spirituality you want. You don't even need dream sharing for that. I suggest watching this video. It gets increasingly interesting. I recommend tuning in starting from 18:30 the first 15 minutes we have all heared already. His book must be a charm to read as well, i can imagine.

I can speak for Mudras here as well. They are a known phenomenon amongst some of my internet buddies. I have had an amazing dream which involved an outsider influencing my dreams and a level of control/manipulation of my own lucid dream that is beyond my comprehension. All in accordance to Mudras.. Which goes back to ancient spiritual roots. Which brings me to my final point. Which is that Lucid dreaming has been a spiritual practice for at least thousands of years. So look no further. Lucid dream progression - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views Night #1. Notice an outsider influence triggered my lucidity in a very engaging way.

As far as confirming actual experiences. I am certainly willing to try and dream share with you. If I must trust my own intuition and feelings, I have already established multiple instances of telepathic communication with you, or a part of you. Which I am uncertain about. To be completely honest. But nevertheless, engagement and interactions with YOU felt real and honest.

Those experiences are still not Dream sharing though. I will work on that, I hope I am welcome as well! Sounds like fun. ;)
All (most) feelings and dreams will be reported in my Dream Journal. :)

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Originally Posted by UdIe

Hello everyone, thanks for reading my post. I want to learn Dream Invasion. Like I want to invade other people's dream and want to telepathically communicate with them, is there anyone who will teach me, step by step, how invade someone else's dream.

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What are your motives?

By the way Steph, if you have a similar kind of openness in relation to me and DThoughts at the same time, then what you get in a dream won't necessarily be completely segregated, it will be sort of a hybrid of both of us. At least that's how it works for me. This can be confusing, like too many people talking at once, or it can actually help, if the third person adds some missing ingredient. I guess you have some sense of each of us though, who you think we are, so if you can sort of taste that in the experience you can get a flavor of how much of who you are interacting with.

You imagine, I presume, that your sense of who other people are is your own private model of them, that its not actually directly connected to them. The proof of that would be how much specific information gets through along with the vague impressions.

I tried this with DThoughts a few months ago by the way. I got an interesting dream, but there wasn't anything in it that I could objectively connect with him. He never got back to me, so I guess nothing of note happened on his end, or he got distracted somehow. I might worry that I don't still have the knack for this, that I can't do it any more, because I haven't had notably strong dreams of this type for about two years now. A lot of that is because I've lost interest, the experience isn't novel to me any more. I still have such experiences, but weaker, and unfocused. But I think what you do or don't experience has more to do with you and your own personal journey than with me, I'm just a willing participant, not really 'doing it'. And I have confidence that you will find what you are looking for, based on my past experience and on my sense of who you are.

And yet again, shadow is completely on point.

Dthoughts - lets see, what happens with shadowofwind first - if I really came to make an experience, which surprises me sufficiently - you are invited as well and I'll look out for you!
But don't forget - I'm not exactly searching for such experiences - not at all, actually, since I believe they are not possible.
It's just that I take up this challenge in a scientific spirit now, so to speak - how can I not, after such a confident invitation!
But if you happen to come across my "hyperdimensional cat" (she likes you said that!) - greet her from me and send her on over - I'd like to dream her as well! How about shadowofwind and you? You said, you had some maybe contacts, didn't you? With him as well?

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Steph,

I guess its put-up-or-shut-up time for me then! I'm very short of time to type, but here are a few thoughts without having time to word it all very well....

I don't think your scientific skepticism is a limiting factor here. I think you can keep your skepticism and still get a satisfactory result. You can't control the form that result will come in, and you have to be comfortable with that lack of control. But the answer will meet your standard of objective honesty, and you'll be able to agree that its unreasonable to write it off as a statistical fluke or other fallacy. I don't know whether you can get a "this is definitely real" result immediately, for me it started with "I don't know if this is real or not, but this is significant enough that I can't just dismiss it".

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Okay - sounds good!

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I won't be "in your dream". Some subconscious part of me/us is in you and vice versa, and this can produce effects in our dreams. The openness should be more at the level of identity, being willing to share something of who you are. If you try to keep it in your sensate imagination "at arms length" without it touching your essence, like how some people try to have romantic experiences without putting themselves at risk emotionally, it won't work as easily.

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How exactly do you mean this - that I should emotionally be set up in a way, that I let you in, so to speak, and don't hold you off with some sort of inner resistance - that I'm not afraid you could find things out?

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

It might help to have some kind of other topic of philosophical interest to focus the experience, to help determine what the dream should be about. Something you want to know about metaphysics, or solving a problem in your interpersonal relationships, or dealing with life issues rooted in your childhood, or something else relatively 'deep' that you care about. This helps engage the part of our minds that can make the contact, its less likely to care about stupid stuff like passwords. Also, questions on lofty moral concerns helps keep us from forming inappropriate romantic attachments despite the intimacy, if that makes any sense.

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Do you mean, I should put my mind to such a matter - meditate on a question, I might have - without telling you what it is?
To tune in to it? So it doesn't go right down to my intimate private core, or however to say that?

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

One way this can play out is I'll get some specific details about you in my dreams that you haven't shared. It could go the other way too, but it wouldn't be as much of a demonstration for you that way.

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Okaay - now this would have to be something I really didn't share - and I've always been pretty open on here, too much at times, even.

From the top of my head - I could imagine a whole bucket full of things I didn't directly share, but which a sensitive person could maybe follow and extract and extrapolate by pure worldly means - even if it came to you in a dream and not sifting through DV and looking for clues. But okay - surprise me.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

You imagine, I presume, that your sense of who other people are is your own private model of them, that its not actually directly connected to them. The proof of that would be how much specific information gets through along with the vague impressions.

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Yupp - you presume exactly correctly.
Problem is - and I've been thinking about this before - with my one and a half thousand posts + DJ - if somebody with a bit of a professional eye goes over it - they will be able to paint a picture of me, which I never really consciously was aware, I had put out in that complexity.

I actually have a hard time to imagine a "secret" of mine, which is not implied somewhere ..
But enough guesswork - doors are open!
Attachment 6890

Steph,

We picked a difficult time to try to do this, I have insanely short deadlines at work, and my wife has been up most of the past two nights working. For me its kind of like raising a puppy or growing a plant though, once started it can't just be put off for a more convenient time.

In our initial discussions of shared dreaming, most of the thrust of your argument wasn't that you thought it was impossible, it was that you weren't convinced that it would be a good idea. That was an argument that I'm sympathetic to, and I guess you recall that I've supported that side of it. This is an issue now though, if you want to have that kind of experience, another desire has to reach an accommodation with or overpower your opposition. Whether or not you believe in it scientifically is a side issue I think, that's not a reason to be against something happening. There are things that I strongly doubt are possible that I still very much want. Maybe my lack of faith is a barrier, but I had that kind of skepticism when I started with the premonitions, so I know it doesn't always have to be an insurmountable barrier.

Maybe meditating or something helps, but I've never done anything like that. My approach, for better or worse, is to address the obstacles that I see, then what happens happens. If you're still against shared dreaming because its something you don't want to happen, then that's the most important thing to look at. And my approach would be to respect it and reach an agreement with it rather than trying to overpower it.

I find the 'extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence' argument to be unconvincing. As scientists, we describe things, forming mathematical/mental simplified caricatures of things that allow us to predict behavior to an extent. But those models aren't isomorphic with the things they describe, always they work well within some defined scope but fail if we extrapolate too far. We know this, and understand this. Nature is a kind of math I think, but its not the algebra we use. So always there is something outside of our scientific understanding. Psychic phenomena are not extraordinary in human experience, they're just hard to control well enough to do predefined experiments with. What would be extraordinary to me, is if our scientific models become so inflated in importance in our minds that we expect them to be able to account for everything, and strongly resist seeing things that they don't already accommodate. We need evidence, but I don't think it needs to be as hard as what you're implying. Its a conversation, a relationship. How does someone prove to you that they are a friend, and not just a sociopath trying to use you? Its almost impossible. Every kind thing they do you can plausibly explain as being some kind of setup for a later betrayal. How can they prove it? It doesn't make sense to demand that kind of proof from people, and I don't think it makes sense to treat our souls that way either. We need strong evidence, but the evidence shouldn't have to overpower that kind of prejudice.

However this works out, I'm going to stop challenging you to try shared dreaming, because I'm not going to try to tell you how open you have or haven't been. If we fail, that's a failure of my argument, and I'll have to make other arguments instead.

I need to work now. I had dreams last night, but if they involved you, they didn't involve you more than about 30%, and like all of my dreams in the last year or two they were weird and abstract. The people in them are not real people, the places are not real places, and do not even represent places or objects in a physical world. There were a couple of scenes that can at least be translated into something I can describe metaphorically, but if I share those I'll do it in a private message. I don't think my muse let me down, I think it tried to share a dream with you, and what happened was a fair reflection of our situation, if we can understand it. I think that to say anything sensible about my last night's dreams I need to describe a little more context of where I'm coming from, the desire that is driving my side of the interaction, since this is such a large part of what my dream-muse is responding to. I'll try to say a bit more at lunch.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Steph,

We picked a difficult time to try to do this, I have insanely short deadlines at work, and my wife has been up most of the past two nights working. For me its kind of like raising a puppy or growing a plant though, once started it can't just be put off for a more convenient time.

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First of all - please don't feel pressured now. I won't go ahead and say - see, told you - I would be patient, and as you said, I have nothing to loose.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

In our initial discussions of shared dreaming, most of the thrust of your argument wasn't that you thought it was impossible, it was that you weren't convinced that it would be a good idea. That was an argument that I'm sympathetic to, and I guess you recall that I've supported that side of it. This is an issue now though, if you want to have that kind of experience, another desire has to reach an accommodation with or overpower your opposition. Whether or not you believe in it scientifically is a side issue I think, that's not a reason to be against something happening. There are things that I strongly doubt are possible that I still very much want. Maybe my lack of faith is a barrier, but I had that kind of skepticism when I started with the premonitions, so I know it doesn't always have to be an insurmountable barrier.

Maybe meditating or something helps, but I've never done anything like that. My approach, for better or worse, is to address the obstacles that I see, then what happens happens. If you're still against shared dreaming because its something you don't want to happen, then that's the most important thing to look at. And my approach would be to respect it and reach an agreement with it rather than trying to overpower it.

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I do remember - but it is more of a kind of argumentation line of mine - that if it really was possible - the consequences would be horrifying.
That does and did not mean I am actually afraid of it - it is more that I wonder, how people can be so blue-eyed in their wishful thinking to completely ignore the dark side, that would naturally be implied in such a way of thinking.
Same as next door - if I were a devout Christian, really taking it seriously - I had to stop LDing, because it is witchcraft and more.
This I tend to bring forth to make people think - not because I am actually worried.
Then was this Castaneda story, I told you and here - but that was in my youth, and I'm quite ashamed of being so stupidly superstitious, after having been much more reasonable at age 13. Whatever.
So no - I am not blocking anything.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I find the 'extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence' argument to be unconvincing. As scientists, we describe things, forming mathematical/mental simplified caricatures of things that allow us to predict behavior to an extent. But those models aren't isomorphic with the things they describe, always they work well within some defined scope but fail if we extrapolate too far. We know this, and understand this. Nature is a kind of math I think, but its not the algebra we use. So always there is something outside of our scientific understanding. Psychic phenomena are not extraordinary in human experience, they're just hard to control well enough to do predefined experiments with. What would be extraordinary to me, is if our scientific models become so inflated in importance in our minds that we expect them to be able to account for everything, and strongly resist seeing things that they don't already accommodate. We need evidence, but I don't think it needs to be as hard as what you're implying. Its a conversation, a relationship. How does someone prove to you that they are a friend, and not just a sociopath trying to use you? Its almost impossible. Every kind thing they do you can plausibly explain as being some kind of setup for a later betrayal. How can they prove it? It doesn't make sense to demand that kind of proof from people, and I don't think it makes sense to treat our souls that way either. We need strong evidence, but the evidence shouldn't have to overpower that kind of prejudice.

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Well - it's not exactly "we" - I do not need anything - but I might consider something coming my way.
I don't believe it - and you are the one making a claim.
The evidence, I will consider, needed to persuade me - and really persuade me, because a lot of physics would have to be re-written to accommodate such phenomena.
Dark matter is also a really big not yet resolved issue of physics - and they dig themselves into a mountain to make sure, they don't by mistake detect cosmic radiation. Not sure, if you get my point, though.

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

However this works out, I'm going to stop challenging you to try shared dreaming, because I'm not going to try to tell you how open you have or haven't been. If we fail, that's a failure of my argument, and I'll have to make other arguments instead.

I need to work now. I had dreams last night, but if they involved you, they didn't involve you more than about 30%, and like all of my dreams in the last year or two they were weird and abstract. The people in them are not real people, the places are not real places, and do not even represent places or objects in a physical world. There were a couple of scenes that can at least be translated into something I can describe metaphorically, but if I share those I'll do it in a private message. I don't think my muse let me down, I think it tried to share a dream with you, and what happened was a fair reflection of our situation, if we can understand it. I think that to say anything sensible about my last night's dreams I need to describe a little more context of where I'm coming from, the desire that is driving my side of the interaction, since this is such a large part of what my dream-muse is responding to. I'll try to say a bit more at lunch.

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I would like to keep this all out in the open - and out of areas, which wouldn't be suited for this thread.
It is meanwhile a public event, so to speak
But go ahead, whatever you have.
If you think, this is already the right moment of course.
And please take your time and don't let me keep you off work - I'm not working at the moment, obviously.

Steph,

Its not obvious to me that you're really open. I think that to some extent you're just pretending to be open so you can appear to win the argument. The shared dreaming doesn't work unless its something you really want, and you can't fake that. In any case, I can't prove or even know completely the extent to which that its a fair criticism. Let's try it one more night, and see if you have any interesting dreams.

Also consider if you experienced anything unusual two nights ago, before I posted my challenge. It usually comes the night prior to the external interaction for me. All I got this time though was the kind of weak impressions of other people that I've been getting for the past year or so, without the stronger experiences that seem like something's being pushed into my mind from some third facilitator. Although I haven't shared the fine details of the dreams with you, I don't think its highly likely that there's anything in there that would be meaningful.

Regarding Castaneda....I find his approach to self development to be brutal and lacking in love. I also have a problem with teachers who make shit up or who allow others to make shit up for them. Being a part of a long tradition is like that by default if you don't attempt to sort out what is and is not true from that tradition. I guess not everyone needs to play that role, but it's an important one that appears to me to be mostly abandoned in all religious and philosophical traditions. Science is superior for what it does well, but is often practiced like a religion.

Regarding physics: No physics would have to be rewritten to accommodate shared dreaming. We have physics theory for electromagnetics, but it's clear that shared dreaming does not work through light. We have physics for gravity, and other particle interactions, but again these deal with other conditions and effects. It's true that proving paranormal phenomena would be a big deal, because this would open up a new area for people to study, if they can. And of course that's what you meant, even while I make this other point. But proving paranormal phenomena doesn't overturn anything. It contradicts the vanity of people who think that the understanding of their chosen in-group defines reality, but it doesn't go against any actual science. If you study quantum theory, for example, and you consider it in this way, I think you find that a lot is assumed about how nature behaves that isn't actually in any the equations. Not everybody thinks about that though. Some people are really, really, good at manipulating symbols without examining or even recognizing any of the philosophical implications. Others do recognize philosophical implications, but don't pursue them because it's too hard. Existing physics is safe, in the same sense that Newtonian mechanics is still valid for what it was developed for. I don't think that new physics theory could be developed to accommodate paranormal phenomena any time soon even if people were working on it. Too little is known. I do agree though that puncturing the arrogant and somewhat stagnant bubble of present day science would be something notable. More people would recognize the folly of trying to complete theories by fine tuning them when they're radically incomplete. Knowing that this is what is going on is a big part of what drives me.

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Originally Posted by StephL

Dthoughts - lets see, what happens with shadowofwind first - if I really came to make an experience, which surprises me sufficiently - you are invited as well and I'll look out for you!
But don't forget - I'm not exactly searching for such experiences - not at all, actually, since I believe they are not possible.
It's just that I take up this challenge in a scientific spirit now, so to speak - how can I not, after such a confident invitation!
But if you happen to come across my "hyperdimensional cat" (she likes you said that!) - greet her from me and send her on over - I'd like to dream her as well! How about shadowofwind and you? You said, you had some maybe contacts, didn't you? With him as well?

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First.. Cats !! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ruNIIvXo8
Second.. Yes, I do find a piece of resemblance to myself in the short dream-scenes that Shadowofwind has sent me. But quite abstract. There was little to no shared aspect of it, at all. Simply a shared interest. As far as I know.

And.. @ Shadowofwind, Sorry that I never got back at you. I wanted to wait with posting until i got myself together at the time. And i guess it simply took a long time before I got myself back together and the momentum kind of faded. Expect more of a coherent response from me the next time we interact as opposed to our last encounters. I finally got most of my shit together, I think. Even had a bitch ass kicking lucid dream tonight and loads of information from last night's dream that I want to share.. Simply do not have the time to update all my internet conversations. I do however, value the exchange you and I where having and I plan on still writing a response if you don't mind.

On another last note.. I intentionally did not dream share tonight.

About Carlos Casteneda and physics. (Realy need to go to school so i'll keep it short). I have experiences. Even in my lucid dream tonight that seems to indicate that Dream sharing and even dreaming itself is governed by the laws of physics on a deeply intimate way. It simply isn't so Obvious from the perspective of the dream. But when you disillusion yourself you can see particles as opposed to dream images. Both are different perspectives of the same kind of thing. I should go now.. Late for school! :)

Bye!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StephL

People supposedly show up in other people's dreams unexpectedly – if somebody was proficient in LDing and in actual "magic" - like The Cusp and others seem to have claimed in the past - piece of cake - same mechanism.

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You DO NOT need to be proficient at LDing. I've never been that great at getting lucid myself. Shared dreaming seems to happen on it's own, and in my opinion the only reason it isn't noticed more often is because people only recall a small percentage of their dreams each night.

If you want to force it to happen, you could use dream incubation or my specialty, dream control. Now the similarities and overlap between what I consider dream control and magic are uncanny, and I've found the theory behind ritual in particular to be most useful in building reliable dream control skills/tools/systems.

I've never said use magic and presto you get dream sharing. What I have consistently said is that dreams follow in the wake of your focused attention. That's all you need to know to force a shared dreaming scenario in order to play around and see for yourself. I'm sure it's only coincidence that the object most representative of magic is a magic wand, and that wands or pointers do one thing and one thing only, direct and focus attention.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mzzkc

As an aside: within Dreamviews itself, there once existed a select few members of exceptional skill and rapport who've demonstrated such phenomena. But again--results and methods were never shared through public channels. Primarily because of threads like this, I imagine.

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It's not that it wasn't shared, I think most everything was public and even linked together somewhat, it's just that it wasn't organized, because of threads like this. Plus it doesn't help that our grandfathered DJs are unsearchable. What a pain in the ass that is.

Nomad did a good job chronicling many of them
Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views - DreamAs1 - Dream Journals
http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-jour...ml#post1178987

As for methods, it's like anything else in dream control. Anything can work, but not everything will work for everyone. Putting on a pair of glasses may stabilize a dream for someone who wears glasses, but it won't do shit for the rest us it. It only works if you've put on glasses thousands of times, in effect ritual behavior which builds a system. I know I don't need to tell you that.

That said, there's no one miracle method to get'er done. You either get too specific and it doesn't fit for a large number of people who try to use it, or you give general advice which doesn't fit with their do X, get Y expectations. I still think the moon is an ideal place to meet, that project went exceptionally well.

Wasn't talking about Nomad and Co.

I've had shared dreams where both parties recall the encounter, yet the ones that left me the most convinced were the ones I didn't remember at all.

Like the one where Nomad, ManofShred and others trapped me in a chest where I found chocolate and beer. How could they have possibly have know I had spent the weekend gorging my self on expensive chocolate and imported beer playing video games that conditioned me to seek out treasure chests? That dream would have made perfect sense in my dream journal, and I would have known where every element came from. But in other people's dream journals? That's way too specific about me personally.

Or another one where Nomad and the gang saw me having 8 tentacle arms, each holding a globe with an individual scene inside. I have no recollection of that at all, and yet I had a notebook where I had sketched out exactly that. I had actually planned out that exact thing, had a drawing of the tentacle arms and everything. Only in my drawing, the focal points at the end of the arms weren't encased in glass globes. I was trying to design something to overwhelm and splinter my opponent's attention, I made it with the intention of using it, then I read about myself doing just that. It didn't end up working at all, but still way too specific to be coincidence. (I should have scanned and uploaded the sketch, but doing so after the fact wouldn't have convinced anyone.)

Even the one where I try to get ManOfShred with the old "your shoe lace is untied" by telling him he was bleeding. He didn't fall for it, but that sort of behavior in the dream character they describe is too accurate to be anyone but me, even if I don't recall the actual encounter.

My most memorable dreams last night were about Cthulhu, and about being a guest or observer at some kind of self-help/recovery/support group meeting. The Cthulhu dream relates to a thought I expressed earlier about constructively engaging the darker side of one's psyche.

Unless something changes in our feelings on the subject, I don't see a point in continuing to look towards telepathetically sharing with Steph. In the past it happens as soon as there's an opening, and if nothing interesting has happened yet, there's no opening. So I have to stop taunting people who dismiss shared dreaming without having tried it, especially since there's no way to compel interest. But I will still continue to suggest that shared dreaming skeptics might either relax their judgments a little bit or take more time to learn about about what they're talking about. There's a lot more anecdotal evidence available than what has been posted publicly, and personal experience that's possible, but you don't know about it if you're not interested in pursuing it.

A general thing up front - to say it is a problem of physics is only one aspect.

How should it be, that brains can communicate over the "ether" in principle, and evolution didn't make use of that supposed unknown property of physics since millions of years? Why are we not animals of telepathy then?
It simply makes no sense.

This specific sort of shared dreaming we seem to be talking in this thread, is so weak in it's supposed results - really - that can be anything from coincidence to people having a good or exceptional feel about other people, and what goes on in their minds, and research on the forum/good memory and and and..
People close together are known to say the same thing at the same time - there are tons of examples of synchronizing minds - this is the much easier and more probable explanation here.

What Nomad and Mylynes and floatinghead and others believed to be able to do, would be something really unusual in itself.


Hi The Cusp!
Nice you chime in - so you're having an eye on us still!
I am quite sure, I read about you doing SD of exactly the kind alluded to above as well - I might go look.
Wasn't it DreamWalkers and Nightstalkers once in the past?

I understand you well, you are correct - your techniques make sense, including the use of rituals, and I can honestly say, I gained some wisdom from you - and thank you for that!
But you keep implying the paranormal and supernatural. Do you even believe in these things yourself? Literally?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Steph,

Its not obvious to me that you're really open. I think that to some extent you're just pretending to be open so you can appear to win the argument. The shared dreaming doesn't work unless its something you really want, and you can't fake that. In any case, I can't prove or even know completely the extent to which that its a fair criticism. Let's try it one more night, and see if you have any interesting dreams.

Also consider if you experienced anything unusual two nights ago, before I posted my challenge. It usually comes the night prior to the external interaction for me. All I got this time though was the kind of weak impressions of other people that I've been getting for the past year or so, without the stronger experiences that seem like something's being pushed into my mind from some third facilitator. Although I haven't shared the fine details of the dreams with you, I don't think its highly likely that there's anything in there that would be meaningful.

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Well - I am definitively not open to do it in PMs and in too much of a grey-zone.
And what you told me there up to now, seems to completely mirror the way you see me - as being torn between my believing side and my agnostic atheistic one. Symbolized as a conflict between two women. That is really not the way I feel.


Otherwise - I am open as in not opposing anything.
But I told you right from the start, that I do not believe in it - so how could I really want it?
That's impossible. And if it is a hindering factor - it's not going to work.
I will update my DJ later, and it's still, and was before your offer - the same quite boring and repeating things - same people, same places, same situations - with a lot of weird plants showing up lately, because I really want to do the plant-creation Task Of The Month. Last night I used a non-lucid shovel to take some home to my balcony ..Attachment 6895

Told you in my PM, why I do this experiment - and I thought, it was obvious.
I do it, not to be one of those people, who say something is not possible, but wouldn't even give it a try, if they wouldn't need to spend time or energy on it.
And you made the perfect offer - you said I neither had to believe in it, nor do something, and you would come up with a phenomenon, I would find extraordinary. If it worked from your side.

It's not that I want to win an argument with you about it - I can't possibly do that.
As per usual - I can't prove a negative, like it not working in general - I can only say, I'm still not convinced it's even an
interesting topic.
Aside from the people connected, so it does interest me to debate it, since I got to know and really like a lot of you "beyonders" - and you are my LDing co-pioneers and all.
Even if I don't always sound so, when the ranting-joy overtakes me.
But I think it a good idea to stop believing - a very good one. :wink:

OK. I misread the nature of your interest, trying to guess why you keep returning to a subject you're not very interested in. I don't think your understanding of how I see you is accurate, even though you made your best guess about what my words mean. But that's probably not worth trying to clarify.

Its an inherently personal experience, I don't think you can do it without being open to a personal interaction. Its much easier to recognize with strangers because there's more potential to be shared that hasn't already been expressed through some other means. But it is personal, so if you're not comfortable with that with me, that's no fault of yours, and nothing to be done about it.

One other thing to reiterate Steph: You've said several times now that you don't want private messages. You've also repeatedly said that people's anecdotes are things that can be explained in terms of coincidences, synchronous thinking, etc. But as I've told you repeatedly before, people are not going to post their strongest evidence in an internet forum, because its private. It takes something personal and fairly significant to make a strong supernatural dream experience. What you've essentially been saying all along is "I don't find your anecdotes to be at all convincing, but I don't want to hear anything more convincing." That's fine, but then you should take that into account when judging other people's assertions. I don't think anyone here cares much about whether or not you believe in shared dreaming. But you keep coming back and challenging people on the subject anyway, even though you want to keep it at arms length. Then we respond to your challenges. It sort of seems like you're trying to have it both ways. But I can see why you don't see it that way, since you don't actually know what we're all talking about, since you keep trying to interpret it from a distance, and then it looks like something else.