There is no possible way shared dreaming or astral projection is possible.
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There is no possible way shared dreaming or astral projection is possible.
Astral projection is the same activity as Lucid dreaming. The difference is that people whom believe in spirits, souls and ghost and other nonsense think of lucid dreaming as they are ''astral traveling''. It's the matter of understanding the philosophy of life.
And the shared dreaming is great. Of course you can't have other people's conciousness in your head, yet, with no cables... :) But you can summon your friend in a lucid dream and then you can speak about it with him in waking life. This is kind a possible fun of shared dreaming.
Okey. So how do you know all this is true then?:)Quote:
Astral Projection and shared dreaming is nonsense
There is no possible way shared dreaming or astral projection is possible.
How are you going to just totally trash something with no reason or evidence to back it up?
No, they are not the same. Also, I don't know where you get the idea that everyone sees ghosts a ghouls when Projecting. The Buddhist monks have been writing about Astral Projection for ages. If you have never been in a deep meditative state and had an extraordinary experience, well then who are you to first of all knock it and second of all who are you to name the experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nfri
Because right now the evidence compiled is suggesting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamyBear
The same way most people on Beyond Dreaming believe in it without evidence to back it up, lol. He's obviously challenging somebody to prove him wrong but if no one feels like stepping up to the challenge then I guess since the evidence suggests its not possible we have to assume it isn't, don't we? Of course, that will remain so until any new, credible evidence surfaces suggesting other wise, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by OneUp
A way you can see if its true is if you try it. If others succeed and you keep failing there are two possibilities.Which is its not true or you just suck at it. Just because you don't have evidence on the physical nature of it yet doesn't mean its not true. Can you say someone among many witnesses is guilty in committing a crime just by looking at him/her? If you did you could be sending a innocent person to jail. The same goes for shared dreaming.
If you don't know everything about the human brain/body how can you say its not true? You could be missing something important that might change the way you look at things.Quote:
Because right now the evidence compiled is suggesting it.
I think this might be a troll. . .
/Ignore and rock on with our astral projecting. :rockon:
Wow yeah, take that mindset into waking life in general and you won't get anywhere. Thats a horrible thing to go by. If everyone thought like you do snoop we wouldn't have much progression in society- no offense of course. Just because one does not have the knowledge to understand an idea at its present time, or the knowledge for it isn't "accessible" yet or hasn't been put forth by someone, does not mean that it is possible. Innovations, Inventions, and all new ideas come from taking a step forward into what you don't know, outside of your comfort zone.Quote:
He's obviously challenging somebody to prove him wrong but if no one feels like stepping up to the challenge then I guess since the evidence suggests its not possible we have to assume it isn't, don't we? Of course, that will remain so until any new, credible evidence surfaces suggesting other wise, right?
I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just asking the OP why he thinks astral projection and shared dreaming is not possible. I try to stay open minded about alot of things, but dissing something because you don't understand it fully, especially when you provide no reason or opinion on your part as to why you feel that way seems a bit odd.
If everyone thought like some of the nuts in Beyond Dreaming society wouldn't get anywhere either. I don't see what's wrong with what I said at all, in fact it's the basis of scientific thought and I think you can agree that science has probably led humans to the most progress in waking life as opposed to some of its religious and spiritual predecessors. Do you not agree?Quote:
Originally Posted by OneUp
I never said we could never understand any of this or that it isn't worth investigating. What I said was that the evidence that we have been able to come up with and prove thus far suggests that these abilities are not real and a figment of the imagination. If and when evidence surfaces suggesting otherwise (which it very well may, and especially could if Beyond Dreaming would be willing to put themselves through the rigorous standards and procedures when running a proper experiment using the scientific method of investigation, but alas no one here seems to be willing to do it to standard or says that it simply can't be proven or disproven so therefore exists (which by the way, is a logical fallacy)) then I will believe in it fully without a problem.
You guys really like to put words in my mouth. I didn't say it wasn't true, I said I believe that the corroborating evidence we currently have suggests that it isn't. Besides, because you don't fully understand something you can't say it's not true? Well, you're partially right. Partially. I don't know everything about the earth, but I know that the claim that it is flat is untrue. You don't have to have all the facts, just the pertinent ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEye11
My reaction is to say that this is all based on personal experiences, so at this point I don't think it can be scientifically proved or disproved either way. Although I personally think its possible and happens, albeit still uncommon for people. So if they are just wanting to troll, its working! However I see the thread going (or could go) in these directions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
Science/research based
-astral projection is not validated by the actual scientific community, and there'd have to be a definition of what "research" would actually entail. how can you research something which technically would be in the ether? not just talking about confirming seeing things remotely that exist in our world, but my understanding is that "astral" implies places in other realms. since they are reportedly nonphysical, that in itself is a problem, along with establishing continuity with what is observable and what constitutes evidence in the first place.
Belief/opinion
-self explanatory. can be based off of previous viewpoints or align with a particular paradigm or not. not substantial for scientific proof, but enough for personal/experiential proof.
Experience
-it actually happened to you! not scientifically provable, but real from that person's perspective. the said person can confirm or deny astral projection based upon their beliefs/opinions and if they align with the scientific paradigm.
Spiritual/esoteric
-this forum is for you and you're probably giving astral projection a chance at being real. may align with shamanism. experiences are real for you since they are a part of your perceived reality. may see connections to certain aspects of dreaming, OBE, science, ect, although not recognized by the actual scientific community.
Edit: ahh missed that shared dreaming bit, but ya'll get the idea :P
You can ASSume what ever you want, but you know where that leads. Oh and lets not play "the world if flat, the world is flat!" For some people it is round.Quote:
Originally Posted by snoop
You're playing semantics kadie. You know full well it is more of an assumption to assume that all of this shit is real without evidence than to assume it isn't, because one implies something has evidence backing its existence and there isn't any. The latter is less of an assumption than an educated guess, where as the former is most definitely an assumption. Also, my point is that the world is round? I'm confused by your statement. I was telling DawnEye that you don't have to have a full understanding on something (as in know exactly how big the earth is, how fast its moving through space, how much rainfall there is, etc.) to know something specific. All you need are the pertinent facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by kadie
By the way, if this experiment showed promise, why are the other 2 impossible?
'Telepathy' experiment sends 1st mental message
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
That remark would seem to be the forum-based equivalent of mooning out the window, while driving past in a car ...
Not impossible, improbable--given the evidence right now. That's what I've been saying this entire time.Quote:
Originally Posted by kadie
So just because the creative people in Beyond Dreaming have an imagination you are going to dismiss them as nuts? I agree that its the basis of scientific thought, but only a small part. Our top scientists know very little about the mind when it comes to this topic. When they can find out where consciousness originates from then maybe they get a little farther than just the simple explanation of "its all in the mind" because of course it is.Quote:
If everyone thought like some of the nuts in Beyond Dreaming society wouldn't get anywhere either. I don't see what's wrong with what I said at all, in fact it's the basis of scientific thought and I think you can agree that science has probably led humans to the most progress in waking life as opposed to some of its religious and spiritual predecessors. Do you not agree?
I never said we could never understand any of this or that it isn't worth investigating. What I said was that the evidence that we have been able to come up with and prove thus far suggests that these abilities are not real and a figment of the imagination. If and when evidence surfaces suggesting otherwise (which it very well may, and especially could if Beyond Dreaming would be willing to put themselves through the rigorous standards and procedures when running a proper experiment using the scientific method of investigation, but alas no one here seems to be willing to do it to standard or says that it simply can't be proven or disproven so therefore exists (which by the way, is a logical fallacy)) then I will believe in it fully without a problem.
The real question though when it comes to this topic, beyond dreaming, is what is the potential of our mind, what can we really do? Hope that made sense. Since we aren't dealing with survival or a complete necessity for knowledge about astral projection and/or shared dreaming I think its safe to say this doesn't have much to do with our progress as humans in general, all though there are indeed many benefits to the hobby of lucid dreaming itself, and I'd imagine the same for astral projection. We all think differently based on the personal experiences we have gone through. which I would say definitely makes us lean towards one side or another. Experience is key, but of course analyzing it and seeing it for what it really is another.
So that leads me to this question snoop: Have you ever successfully astral projected?
I'm curious how would you like to measure something subjective... and what more, something that any of our physical equipment can't measure in principle. Everything our mind is able to sense or feel Is so subjective and so much flavoured by imagination that it can't have exact formulation.
Imagine you are two dimensional entity. If someone would tell you, there is third dimension, would you believe? You are unable to measure third dimension. And if there is being which can travel through third dimension, he would effectively disappear from your senses till he will return to the same level of two dimensional space where you are existing.
I'm skeptical too. I'm even scientist... PhD degree of chemistry. But I do also this unscientific research purely for myself. Even after a few thousand of OBE I can't be certain I see some kind of reality other than physical one(I have only indices that there is more to this)... But I'm not fanatically closed and narrow minded. There is possibility. And if there are hidden spiritual dimensions, then it would be pity not to do something with it. If it is only imagination, then there is no harm of doing it, only you perfectly relax your body and mind(which is healthy in this chaotic world). It is a win-win situation.
Wouldn't cognitive brain activity cease or decrease dramatically when a person projects out of his body? I would think that change would be quite detectible, whether the experience is subjective or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
Anyone know if this has ever been looked at?
Attachment 7757
I always like the way people start throwing the word "troll" around when someone expresses a view that differs from their beliefs.
People are great! :rolllaugh:
If mind is free but connected to body, I don't see why would that be necessary. There were described different things... like nonREM dreams... Or deep relaxations where brain has low activity, but consciousness is preserved. OBE is something different, but I din't know, and I'm not sure if there must be lower or higher activity by OBE. I would like to know, why I sometimes see things before they happen. Or why I know sometimes things I was not aware of. The experiences which have this type of informations are rare, but they are here. Don't forget Murphy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
^^ Good point.
Of course, by the same token, I would imagine that there is a detectible change in brain activity during NREM or deep meditation that would show a rise in cognitive (or some sort of unusual) activity. Of course, I suppose AP might also show a change in activity as well, because some part of you must hold the door open for your return.
And, of course, the brain could just be acting in parallel with whatever activity your wandering mind is performing... which is why I asked if anyone knows of anyone successfully looking into this stuff.
Curious subject, all around!
Especially a thread that turns out pretty good, just because the OP was phrased as it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobblehat
Yes, it's a strategy I use sometimes when I want to find out people's opinions on something but I'm undecided myself - open up with a very contentious post.
Maybe we don't know what to look for. Or maybe interpretation of brain activity is not satisfactory...
As for existence of shared dreaming- I don't have evidence. Some people believe in noosphere... collective mind. Could this make sharing possible? Maybe this is reason why big inventions could happen on very close timeframe at different parts of world.
1) No, I dismiss the ones that deny the possibility of it being proven so therefore it must exist as nuts. I call the ones that call me close-minded because I want evidence to support the claim instead of blindly believing in it nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneUp
2) No, and even if I did I don't know or have any way of truly telling at this point in time if I have actually astral projected or if my mind was in a highly altered state and it was all just an impressive perceptual disturbance.
I've got a question for you now OneUp. How many hallucinogens have you tried? How many trips have you totally lost your mind and had your reality shattered? I've had hundreds, and they have all shown me without a doubt that shared dreaming, astral projection, OBE, etc. could be an illusion created by an altered state of consciousness. Why? Because I've had crazier shit than that happen to me on drugs, stuff far more impossible.
With an attitude like that you never will. How did LaBerge prove lucid dreaming was an actual phenomenon? It's subjective isn't it? He got creative and found a way. How can you measure one's happiness or emotions? It's easy, you create a scale. You find new, different ways to prove things. If you're stumped beyond belief its either time to take a break or be willing to admit you might be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psionik
OBE, Shared Dreaming, and ESP or future sight would all be incredibly easy to scientifically prove, only no one has been able to do it so far. They claim that there is some sort of interference or something. How wonderfully convenient, now nobody can prove that you're wrong. If something is unfalsifiable, then it is not able to be investigated using the scientific method and will never be accepted by the scientific community. That's just the way it is.
