Would it be wrong to cause people to have nightmares?

Lets just assume hypothetically someone with strong dream control has mastered shared dreaming to the point they can infiltrate anyones dreams and exert control over the dreams of others.

Would it be wrong to cause people to have nightmares? Would the intention matter? For example, causing a nightmare while driving a secret email address into the target with instructions to send an email immediately after waking for better recall vs a regular dream message, or doing it simply to spark lucidity in order to guide them into an awesome lucid dream, vs doing it just to mess with people, or for revenge scenarios like maybe you are in jail so you torture the judges mind in order to attemp force giving the lightest possible sentence in exchange for making the nightmares stop. All hypothetical stuff here.

Yes

:nono::nono::nono:

Yep, it's wrong with any intention, actually. It's invading someone's privacy, and what can be more private than the mind realm. If you do want to enter someone's dream you should ask for their permission first.

Morality is subjective. Do whatever you want, the universe doesn't care if it's the wrong or right thing.

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Originally Posted by proctree

Morality is subjective. Do whatever you want, the universe doesn't care if it's the wrong or right thing.

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Ha! :P

I wonder if that still stands in the scenario that you can enter other people's dreams and control them. You might be surprised to find out that the universe does care. :)

(And Dreamzilla, I suppose you can answer your own question by answering this one, in the context of our waking lives: Is it moral to torture people verbally for their e-mail? to help them meditate? Oh, you can have great intentions, but you just will come off as a bit unimaginative and aloof. If you could enter someone's dream, there are much simpler and grander ways to increase their lucidity. You could make the world more vivid, you could stare into their eyes, tell them they are dreaming, stabilize the dream for them. Use your control to make beautiful things happen, fruit trees grow, ancient pyramids rise from the ground, giant peacocks carry you both over the Ganges river.)

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Ha! :P

I wonder if that still stands in the scenario that you can enter other people's dreams and control them. You might be surprised to find out that the universe does care. :)

(And Dreamzilla, I suppose you can answer your own question by answering this one, in the context of our waking lives: Is it moral to torture people verbally for their e-mail? to help them meditate? Oh, you can have great intentions, but you just will come off as a bit unimaginative and aloof. If you could enter someone's dream, there are much simpler and grander ways to increase their lucidity. You could make the world more vivid, you could stare into their eyes, tell them they are dreaming, stabilize the dream for them. Use your control to make beautiful things happen, fruit trees grow, ancient pyramids rise from the ground, giant peacocks carry you both over the Ganges river.)

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I'm not quite so sure about that. I've meditated on this subject quite a lot, and I've found that morality is something that was invented, rather than discovered. Although the notion of right and wrong bas been debated on for quite some time, very few people cared about it at all. In fact, there were almost no non-fanatically religious educated people who even considered it before the 17 hundreds. Kings were largely what would be considered nowadays scum, and baron and earls only cared about power.

What about today? Who rules the world? Corporations and governments, which completely disregard morality except for PR purposes. Very few powerful people alive haven't done some fucked up stuff. And they still rule. So, does the universe really care about some sentient meat on one of the trillions of planets throughout the universe?

Lastly, a couple months ago I did one of my usual 'good luck with money' rituals. Three days after, at exactly 11.11, I saw someone drop a 50 euro note while paying for their food at a shop. I took it, taking the hour as a sign the universe wanted me to. Unless I experienced a crazy coincidence, then I was literally told to steal by the universe.

You are right that if we study just this one life, we will not find any justice: Many good people suffer and many bad people thrive.

But for a person in a good relationship with the Universe, this might be trivial. I personally have never experienced great harm: torture, war, physical/sexual abuse, famine, etc. So I can't talk of those things. But the suffering and pleasure I see in the world I live in, well, it's trivial. I'm in the middle class. If I have a good relationship with the universe, then I have everything I need. Someone in the upper class, with all her wealth and all her power, with a bad relationship with the universe will find herself suffering more than I.

I see life as a story. And all good stories have obstacles. So the obstacles in my life, I see them as a dance with the universe, not as mean remarks from an unfair and ungrateful, sullen universe.

The $50 the universe gave you, well, that's trivial. Your relationship with the universe, and your story, that's what's valuable (in my opinion). And who knows, maybe the Universe gave you the opportunity to show your righteousness, to do a good action and give that person that $50 back, which would have given that person new and fresh hope for humanity. I don't judge what you did. It's part of your story. It's interesting. It's valuable. But I don't think it means the universe doesn't care.

One last thing. I've been reading a few books lately, where a lot of good characters are killed. Who do I blame it on, then? The killer in the story, or the writer? The killer in the story. I praise the writer for the great story but I lust for the vengeance of my beloved character. I think life is similar. The Universe writes the story. I am grateful for it. I praise it, I love the obstacles, I do state what I would like to be in my story, but I don't blame the writer for the story. A story in which the character stops following the plot and tells the writer what to write, is a weird story indeed.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

You are right that if we study just this one life, we will not find any justice: Many good people suffer and many bad people thrive.

But for a person in a good relationship with the Universe, this might be trivial. I personally have never experienced great harm: torture, war, physical/sexual abuse, famine, etc. So I can't talk of those things. But the suffering and pleasure I see in the world I live in, well, it's trivial. I'm in the middle class. If I have a good relationship with the universe, then I have everything I need. Someone in the upper class, with all her wealth and all her power, with a bad relationship with the universe will find herself suffering more than I.

I see life as a story. And all good stories have obstacles. So the obstacles in my life, I see them as a dance with the universe, not as mean remarks from an unfair and ungrateful, sullen universe.

The $50 the universe gave you, well, that's trivial. Your relationship with the universe, and your story, that's what's valuable (in my opinion). And who knows, maybe the Universe gave you the opportunity to show your righteousness, to do a good action and give that person that $50 back, which would have given that person new and fresh hope for humanity. I don't judge what you did. It's part of your story. It's interesting. It's valuable. But I don't think it means the universe doesn't care.

One last thing. I've been reading a few books lately, where a lot of good characters are killed. Who do I blame it on, then? The killer in the story, or the writer? The killer in the story. I praise the writer for the great story but I lust for the vengeance of my beloved character. I think life is similar. The Universe writes the story. I am grateful for it. I praise it, I love the obstacles, I do state what I would like to be in my story, but I don't blame the writer for the story. A story in which the character stops following the plot and tells the writer what to write, is a weird story indeed.

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I feel like the writer metaphor might be a bit off. Books are a method of escapism to another world. This is why most books have some sort of good ending even when the protagonists do not deserve one. We, as humans, build morality-based universes for our minds because we cannot live in one.

I lived my childhood in a less developed country with more than trivial problems. I've seen people do horrible things out of necessity or for fun, and I can honestly say that morality is a thing we only start caring about once we no longer experience real problems. It clouds your judgement and stop you from achieving your potential. One's dance with the universe is one of wits and strength, not of righteousness.

I've never had the universe punish me for being resourceful but immoral. On the contrary, only good things come to the ones that can shape their own path instead of praying for good things from the universe.

I am grateful for the universe helping me along, but the moment I start relying on it is the moment I'll crash and burn. Morality is a notion which you think over while sipping wine, not a force of a universe that's hard and unforgiving. Giving away expecting tenfold gains is only an economist's wet dream, not a lifestyle.

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Originally Posted by proctree

I feel like the writer metaphor might be a bit off. Books are a method of escapism to another world. This is why most books have some sort of good ending even when the protagonists do not deserve one. We, as humans, build morality-based universes for our minds because we cannot live in one.

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Maybe you want to reread my writer metaphor with this in mind: I was not talking about morality at all, just about pleasure and suffering and how much to blame the "writer". And I am not talking about no good ending book. I am talking about books where "moral" characters die an unjust death. The writer may care about the "morality" of the characters and their story in general, but will not necessarily give them a happy ending, or a happy life. The happy ending is for the public, that's a different topic.

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Originally Posted by proctree

I lived my childhood in a less developed country with more than trivial problems. I've seen people do horrible things out of necessity or for fun, and I can honestly say that morality is a thing we only start caring about once we no longer experience real problems. It clouds your judgement and stop you from achieving your potential. One's dance with the universe is one of wits and strength, not of righteousness.

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That is an interesting comment, and a shocking one too, for me. Witnessing these horrible things, I would have assumed that you would have wished for these people to have a better moral compass, that you wouldn't have witnessed those things and the victims wouldn't have suffered. I don't think that because other people are willing to do harm, and because that gives them power, that I would want to follow their steps.

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Originally Posted by proctree

I've never had the universe punish me for being resourceful but immoral. On the contrary, only good things come to the ones that can shape their own path instead of praying for good things from the universe.

I am grateful for the universe helping me along, but the moment I start relying on it is the moment I'll crash and burn. Morality is a notion which you think over while sipping wine, not a force of a universe that's hard and unforgiving. Giving away expecting tenfold gains is only an economist's wet dream, not a lifestyle.

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Going back to my story analogy, because I do see life as a compilation of stories (with no proper endings, just like dreams), we write our own stories, and I think the universe enjoys those stories, and won't act against the natural rules. Obviously, someone who cares not for others will be able to compete better. But you choose if that's your story. You choose if your story is about climbing the ladder and pushing everyone down to fall on their heads, or you choose it to be about a person who struggles to climb this ladder because they want to share their adventures with others, and fail, and strive and go through all the turmoil.

I can't say if there is a better story, but I definitely want to be a righteous character, even if it kills me, even if it stops me from achieving my full financial and social status. Because that's what I find exciting, I find challenging, (well, actually, it hasn't been that hard at all to be honest).

I once had a daydream, where I had to act as a person completely different from me, as a proof of my will (because being good is easy). Because I am naturally good, the only way was to become evil. I have done horrible things in that daydream, never showing any remorse. That was an interesting, but disgusting experience. It won't be my story.

Good and evil is no simple thing. And I don't think there's an objective guide to what to do and what not to do in any one scenario. But I think that whatever choice we make, well, it's valuable. And people who act with good intentions do not cloud their judgement and stop themselves from achieving their potential. They do the opposite, they thrive in their own story. Same as those who live in ill-ways. But those people, I'd rather not be part of their stories. :)

(Evil characters are interesting. I think good characters are too, and not any weaker.)

I think our views of the world are much closer than we think. I can see why you wouldn't want to be part of a morally grey "character"'s story, it very often ends ambiguosly, but somehow worse for others.

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That is an interesting comment, and a shocking one too, for me. Witnessing these horrible things, I would have assumed that you would have wished for these people to have a better moral compass, that you wouldn't have witnessed those things and the victims wouldn't have suffered. I don't think that because other people are willing to do harm, and because that gives them power, that I would want to follow their steps.

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I find that people who have lived their entire live in developed countries often have the same opinion on my experiences as you do. Most of the events that shaped my understanding of the world happened when I was small and didn't have a proper notion of morality yet. With an already calibrated moral compass, my memories are tragic for many, but I view them as enlightening.

For example, one of my earliest and most vivid memories happened when I was very young. My dad hadn't left yet, so I must've been about 6 or so. I was at a festival with my parents. We were near the parking lots and I was looking at a gypsy kid mesmerising a small child. He was showing him trinkets and generally distracting him. A much taller gypsy, dressed completely in black and wearing a bandana came from behind and strangled the little kid with a scarf then dragged him to an SUV. They all got in and restrained the kid and left.
Although the experience seems horrible, I could almost say it made me realize what life really is about. On one side of my family I had my mom, a paragon of righteousness, who struggled for 7 years after my dad left to feed me and pay the mortgage. On the other, I had my dad, who left her with a ton of loans, sold drugs for a while, embezzled from a company then misteriously disappeared. Last I heard he retired from the business and now lives in a villa in Spain, high, drunk, and rich. Perhaps you understand now how I see the world.

You daydream about being evil sounds very interesting. I've never tried being good in an LD. The reason I don't have a DJ is that most of my dreams are pretty fucked up. Nothing worse than Old Testament Yahweh(I'm not trying to be edgy, but there are parallels that can be drawn between LDing me and God) or Zeus, but pretty messed up nonetheless. Given infinite power, I can't help it.

Thanks for sharing some of your story proctree. Nothing is more valuable than stories.

But, poor boy. I wonder just how that incident enlightened you.

I can't go on with words so I'm just going to start being poetic:

One by one,
One block placed on top of the other,
A tower of wooden cubes,
With bright reds and blues and greens on their soft borders.
A simple tower, with no use or splendor,
but yet, is it pride?

And the hands of gods,
Gods with grins that spread from cheek to cheek,
They strike the tower,
I see it fall but I don't truly see it fall.
A simple tower, with no use or splendor,
but yet, is it pain?

Those hands,
Those gleeful hands,
Those destructive hands,
Building their own towers of wooden cubes,
With bright yellows and reds and purples on their soft borders.

My hands,
My own hands.
They are the hands of gods,
but I have no grin,
and the only thing that spreads from cheek to cheek is a red darkness,
They struck those towers, yes they do.
I see them fall but I don't truly see them fall.
Simple towers, with no use or splendor,
But yet, is it fear?

One by one,
One block placed on top of the other,
the gods build their towers of wooden cubes.
Simple towers, with no use or splendor.
Which is the greatest of them all?
That one which stands high over the others,
built by powerful and violent hands,
or this one who used to be called Hope,
and whose blocks now cover the ground,
with bright blues and whites and greens on their soft edges?


Sorry, I am no poet, but this, it just flowed out of me. :P

It's truly beautiful. Did you really compose that just now? You should consider publishing some poetry volumes. I for one would buy one.
Maybe it's hard to understand if you weren't there. I suppose my view of the world is shaped by my entire childhood experience, rather than just a couple defining moments. I called it enlightening because it was the first time I had truly realized how careful I have to be with who I place my trust in. It's a simple concept, but it's harder to comprehend than one might be lead to believe. How can one learn what deceit is when he does not even understand trust?

Thank you, (yes, I really did just compose that just now, but the image of those falling towers is something I have visualized a few times in the past to ponder destruction). I am personally happy with it, given I haven't written a poem since High School. :P

I guess I can understand what you are saying. A person needs to get dirty to survive in a dirty environment. But, I think, every person will still always have some relationship with the concept of morality. Guilt. Hesitation. Whatever it will be. In this example, the boy you saw kidnapped, I don't think the kidnappers got anything out of it that was worth what they did. They might have won, maybe there were no consequences, but their soul is tarnished, no matter what that means. We live in a world of abstract concepts. Abstract concepts exist. Or a poem, for example, would not have any effect on anyone. There is such a thing as a bad person and a good person. Yes, good people will do bad things, and bad people, good things. But kidnapping a child, hurting a child, doing whatever they did to that child after, oh, they're bad people for sure. Should be put in jail. But God won't interfere, no. This world is ours, we do what we do.

I agree with you, Proctree, that we probably have similar understandings of this: there is no observable justice from a God within this lifetime. Again, the way I see it, is the story. The writer won't interfere with his story. He writes it, that's all. He cares about the characters but the story is first. He won't write a happy story without obstacles for example. But when a person reads that story, whoever lives, wins, dies or loses in the end, we all knew who the most valuable character was in the end. (Not that I ever judge people on their morality, but there is importance in it, for sure.)

And if you say humans invented morality, then, you must also believe they invented time. Two things that don't have meaning without people to be aware of them, but once people are aware of them, there is no denying their existence.

Personally, I think very little about the good-evil spectrum of morality. What gets most of my thought is the strong-weak spectrum of morality. A great example: I really should be working right now, but I keep coming here :P I find that a lot more complex and hard :P Hurting others, that never strikes me as a possible and logical method of doing want I want to do. Maybe, I'm just lucky in this one story of mine. And inducing fear in someone to help them, why would you, when you can just hold their hand and show them the way? :)

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Personally, I think very little about the good-evil spectrum of morality. What gets most of my thought is the strong-weak spectrum of morality. A great example: I really should be working right now, but I keep coming here I find that a lot more complex and hard Hurting others, that never strikes me as a possible and logical method of doing want I want to do. Maybe, I'm just lucky in this one story of mine. And inducing fear in someone to help them, why would you, when you can just hold their hand and show them the way?

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I agree with most of the points you made, but I think perhaps due to our different worldviews you do not directly see the reason people hurt each other. Truth is, very few people inflict woe upon their peers or people lower than them just for fun. When those kidnappers stole that kid, they had nothing against him, they were just furthering their goals, that is, receive money and climb the hierarchy. Hurting others is often for morally grey people just a side effect. Wars are not started for fun, they're started for resources and power. If they could be resolved without death, they would be, much like how if the kidnappers could receive their money and power without kidnapping they would choose so.

Man, if I had to live like this all the time, feeling guilt and being bound by a moral code, I'd find it almost too hard to go on. But let's not forget that an inner moral conflict is not the apotheosis of the entire drama genre. Often, morally ambigous characters can be more interesting than your Mary Sues :P

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Would it be wrong to cause people to have nightmares?

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I think the better question would be to ask yourself that question as someone else mentioned in the thread.If you did i think you should ask yourself that question again and think about it more. Here are some questions that might help and that i would be interested in knowing what your answer will be.Would DreamZilla think its right or wrong if someone went in DreamZilla's dream and caused him/her nightmares????How would DreamZilla feel???Does DreamZilla care about the intention of the person entering his/her dreams??

So, lets keep the morality discussion revolving around the OP if we can. Great conversation, but straying off topic, kind of.

Thanks for the interesting replies everyone, don't have much time now but i will post more later on. I asked the op question partially because i was remembering a topic maybe in beyond dreaming about attempting to visit volunteers in sd nightmares in order to cause lucidity and possibly work out bugs and gather evidence of sd. In this experiment ppl were trying to force nightmares onto willing participants, though i also wonder if sd is possible then how good would the aim have to be to avoid accidentally causing unwilling minds to have nightmares. I don't really care to debate whether sd is possible or how it works though which is why op question is hypothetical.

Major watchmen spoiler alert, but this conversation reminds me of a morality story from the ending of the watchmen movie where a [spoiler]massive bomb was used to unite mankind and end the current wars resulting in widespread peace but at the cost of many lives. [/spoiler]

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

And if you say humans invented morality, then, you must also believe they invented time. Two things that don't have meaning without people to be aware of them, but once people are aware of them, there is no denying their existence.

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Actually I believe time exists objectively as more than an idea but something which has been proven distortable by gravity and motion. I also used to think time a mere idea or tool. "A symbolic clock is as nourishing to the intellect as as photograph of oxygen to a drowning man."

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Originally Posted by DawnEye11

I think the better question would be to ask yourself that question as someone else mentioned in the thread.If you did i think you should ask yourself that question again and think about it more. Here are some questions that might help and that i would be interested in knowing what your answer will be.Would DreamZilla think its right or wrong if someone went in DreamZilla's dream and caused him/her nightmares????How would DreamZilla feel???Does DreamZilla care about the intention of the person entering his/her dreams??

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I have thought about the question and have been on the fence not really sure either way. Nightmares can be traumatizing but they can also come with benefits. Also, I usually try to avoid discussing religion, but I'm an ignostic so for 1 thing I personally doubt objective morality exists.


As for how I would feel personally, I actually enjoy spending a lot of time in nightmares sometimes.. they really fascinate me. If someone used a nightmare to connect to my dream I would be pretty happy to have experienced an sd and wouldn't mind the negative aspect at all. I rarely get even slightly scared these days as I tend to be the scariest thing in my own dreams but still find them interesting. Their intent would affect how I choose to react, though it would be extremely difficult for them to harsh my mellow regardless of intentions.

So when I was still 4 I began having unbelievably horrible demonic nightmares for anyone much less a 4 year old, that happened nearly every night for around half a year straight before i started getting a handle on things. It was pretty traumatic mentally but very worth it in the long run because my natural reaction to the situation was lucidity, slowly followed by dream control and the ability to escape or defeat the bad dreams. In a way it feels like that event helped to shape my mind in many ways and sort of evolved my awareness. Was one of the worste experiences of my life but it made me obsessed over expanding what my mind is capable of within dreams and set me onto a path to many amazing dreamplane experiences throughout my life. These days I am almost always lucid, and i've managed to do many things I once thought near/likely impossible.

I understand through empathy that others likely would not enjoy such an experience while happening, though I can also see how in specific situations can turn out to be a very positive thing. If i could go back and change things to where I never had those nightmares I most definitely wouldn't. The darker the experiences witnessed become, the brighter the blessings seem by comparison. I could also compare it to using heat to forge a sword.

Just curious but another hypothetical: would you guys think it moral for a creator deity to send a broken soul to biblical hell for even just 1 day before beginning their eternity in heaven? 1 day of unimagineable torture used to purify an imperfect soul into something potentially eternally rehabilitated through extreme trauma? If you think that is acceptable then I would also be curious to hear your opinion on the morality of eternal damnation. Feel free to ignore though if not comfortable answering.

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Originally Posted by sivason

So, lets keep the morality discussion revolving around the OP if we can. Great conversation, but straying off topic, kind of.

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I don't mind if the topic strays off a bit within the subject of morality.

It's wrong based on circumstance, although there are probably very few where it would be right. Intent and the final result determine why something happens and whether the risks and effort involved in doing something are worth it, you can't realistically say that the ends will always justify the means. The reason why an end comes is equally as important as the end itself.

Here's another question to ask yourself, Dreamzilla: is a nightmare that you enjoy or welcome still a nightmare?

A dream is not a nightmare just because it features nightmarish imagery. If you are enjoying the dream, or getting a rush from the imagery, then you are not suffering the visceral terror or severe anxiety that make a dream a nightmare. (Nightmares. BTW, can be had with the most mundane of imagery as well, you don't need demons or monsters to have the hell scared out of you).

By the same token, if your targets are also welcoming the nightmare, they too might not have the desired effect of being shaken into lucidity.

Also, speaking of SD'ing, I think the morality question about whether it is okay to supply nightmares to "collateral" dreamers who are not interested in receiving them and have no idea what you are doing... something to think about there...

Finally, and way off topic: I'm pretty sure it isn't time that's been proven to be distorted by gravity and motion; rather, using time as a tool for measurement of those distortions is rendered inadequate because the changes these distortions make transcends our established rules for time (the notches on our "time ruler" lose their significance). I started a thread a long time ago that you might be interested in on this subject, called There’s no Such Thing as Time, and Why It Matters Here; you might want to check it out.

Hypothetically, I would also say yes, it would be wrong. Or at least, not a good thing to do.

I suppose you could argue for a revenge scenario, but I generally don't condone revenge, either. But maybe it could be done as a sort of lesson. Teaching them to overcome nightmares, or something.

Invading someone's privacy is wrong. I have no chance in hell to visit my friend in a dream or a lucid, or in real time zone as a ghost, yet I still asked her for permission to visit, just in case : P Also, I don't want to be chased away by her spirit guardian when I visit uninvited : P

Here is more about nightmares, and why a scary dream you are enjoying is not a nightmare http://www.dreamviews.com/general-dr...nightmare.html

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Here's another question to ask yourself, Dreamzilla: is a nightmare that you enjoy or welcome still a nightmare?

A dream is not a nightmare just because it features nightmarish imagery. If you are enjoying the dream, or getting a rush from the imagery, then you are not suffering the visceral terror or severe anxiety that make a dream a nightmare. (Nightmares. BTW, can be had with the most mundane of imagery as well, you don't need demons or monsters to have the hell scared out of you).
Right technically now that I am lucid it is hard to have a lucid nightmare be scary, so i could get a kick out of it similar to watching a scary movie in a safe environment. And i wouldn't really call that a real nightmare. But like i said even the non lucid worste of the worst true nightmares had its benefits despite being traumatic at the time.

By the same token, if your targets are also welcoming the nightmare, they too might not have the desired effect of being shaken into lucidity.
Would depend on multiple factors mostly around how well the nightmare is crafted and how the particular target reacts to various techniques.

Also, speaking of SD'ing, I think the morality question about whether it is okay to supply nightmares to "collateral" dreamers who are not interested in receiving them and have no idea what you are doing... something to think about there...

Finally, and way off topic: I'm pretty sure it isn't time that's been proven to be distorted by gravity and motion; rather, using time as a tool for measurement of those distortions is rendered inadequate because the changes these distortions make transcends our established rules for time (the notches on our "time ruler" lose their significance). I started a thread a long time ago that you might be interested in on this subject, called There’s no Such Thing as Time, and Why It Matters Here; you might want to check it out.
Sounds interesting, I'll give it a read sometime. I also prescribe to many worlds theory, which theoretically could solve all known time travel paradoxes. Instead of true time travel, trying to go back on our own line we could go sideways into an alternate reality similar to a point in the past of our own timeline.

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But like i said even the non lucid worst of the worst true nightmares had its benefits despite being traumatic at the time.

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I have a feeling you would be one of those people who would throw a person into a pit of snakes in waking life just to make them lose their fear of snakes. But instead of curing the person they would faint from the fear. Anyways, the best method to cure a person of a fear is to help them gradually to lose it. Plunging them straight into it would create another or a new horrible experience depending on what it is. Which sounds like torture.According to what you are saying I KNOW you have not experienced the worst of the worst true nightmare.Lucid or not.In a way it feels like your welcoming it. If you truly have experienced the worst of the worst you would not want others to experience the same.

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Originally Posted by Dreamzilla

I personally doubt objective morality exists.

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I wonder if that changes anything, though, whether objective morality exists or not. In both case, it's the same. Atheists have access to the same morality as a religious. Within any group (catholic, jew, hindu, atheist), there is more diversity of morality than between the average morality of each group. I think that acting morally remains relevant even without objective morality. [QUOTE]

To Everything else you said:

Nothing actually horrible has ever happened to me, but all the bad things, I'm happy for them all because they made me who I am today. I also know someone who said they were happy they got a disease because it has shaped them. So I see why you would say what you are saying about being grateful for what happened to you. The thing is, it might be a little bit flawed to think this way. If it weren't for those bad things, you would have lived other things and grown too. There is beauty in our past but we can't go looking for despair just so we can grow.

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Originally Posted by Dreamzilla

Just curious but another hypothetical: would you guys think it moral for a creator deity to send a broken soul to biblical hell for even just 1 day before beginning their eternity in heaven? 1 day of unimagineable torture used to purify an imperfect soul into something potentially eternally rehabilitated through extreme trauma? If you think that is acceptable then I would also be curious to hear your opinion on the morality of eternal damnation.

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I think it would be fair for a creator deity to send a broken soul to biblical Hell for just one day before beginning their eternity in Heaven, although biblical Hell seems very unimaginative to me, coming from the deity who created this world. The hardships that we live in this world, are so more complex than burning immortal bodies. I think Hell, if it ever existed would be a lot more like it is here on Earth, created by Selfish and ignorant people in a competitive world.

So eternal damnation in the pits of biblical hell in the literal way, it doesn't make sense to me. Just like the biblical Heaven, it looks way too simple to me compared to our life here on Earth. A god who created Earth would have more imagination for Hell than just... Fire. Fire for eternity.

Again, in any case, I think the creator god would have the same morality compass as a writer writing a book with no proper ending. For that reason, God can give you nightmares, but you can't give other people nightmares, because that makes you the antagonist :)

Again, like I said, if you can share dreams, you can bring someone to lucidity without giving them night terrors. Once they are lucid, and you both decide you want to go to a nightmarish place, may it be the biblical Hell, just for one night, then you can both go together! :)

[Edit] I will add that taking away someone's control is the worst. For example, think of rape. Everyone claims that (edit) sex is the best thing in the world but do it without consent, and it becomes the worst crime in the world. How is that possible? I think it is because of the control/power part. If you create a world of fear and terror that someone can't control and you're in power, then it is a bit like raping them.

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Originally Posted by Dreamzilla

Just curious but another hypothetical: would you guys think it moral for a creator deity to send a broken soul to biblical hell for even just 1 day before beginning their eternity in heaven? 1 day of unimagineable torture used to purify an imperfect soul into something potentially eternally rehabilitated through extreme trauma? If you think that is acceptable then I would also be curious to hear your opinion on the morality of eternal damnation. Feel free to ignore though if not comfortable answering.

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Though I like to think that a God who goes to all the trouble to create thinking/loving beings and give them an afterlife would never give them a Hell as well, I have a feeling that this God would find better ways to rehabilitate an errant soul than even one day of hellish torture. To assume that the creator of all things would ever be petty or vindictive enough to create Hell (even for one day) is to diminish the nature of that creator -- perhaps to the point of making that God more human than deity -- and that makes no sense to me, no matter how much this stuff is written about (by humans) in the Bible.

By the same token, there may also be better ways to help a fellow dreamer become lucid than torture, no matter how brief that torture might be, or how well-intended.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I will add that taking away someone's control is the worst. For example, think of rape. Everyone claims that it is the best thing in the world but do it without consent, and it becomes the worst crime in the world. How is that possible? I think it is because of the control/power part. If you create a world of fear and terror that someone can't control and you're in power, then it is a bit like raping them.

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No, it would not be a bit like raping them; it would be a lot like raping them.

Yikes. That story about the boy... :(

I think some people block themselves from strong negative emotions (often because of a traumatic childhood), and this causes them to have limited ability to really feel what another person might feel in a bad situation. Of course you can experience pleasure when you gain at someone else's expense, but how would they feel? When you're blocking negative emotions, you're also blocking the positive ones like love.

Sure, the universe will let you be a jerk - beautiful thing that free will is. But what I have learned is that on the one hand is pleasure (from getting some materialistic thing you wanted, or power, or whatever), and on the other hand is happiness. A sense of internal peace, a clear conscience, feeling the joy of someone else. Pleasure is very transitory. Happiness can be much longer lasting. Not saying pleasure is bad - it's good - but not at the cost of integrity. Sorry if I'm sounding a bit puritan here, I'm not trying to pretend I'm perfectly righteous or anything. But yeah, give the $50 back.


..Back on topic: Yes, that would be wrong. Why? Because it's not respecting the other person's boundaries. If you ask me, I say let them find their own path and face their own fears. If you want to help them, ask their permission first. It's not about whether or not you would enjoy or appreciate nightmares. It's about if they would appreciate them. Respect their choice to take a less courageous path (even if it is the wrong path, like, in the case of bad morals :cheeky: )