Thread: How to be reasonably certain you are having an OBE rather than a lucid dream?

There are many seeming differences between the two types of experiences, some more apparent than others. The differing methods and processes of shifting into these altered states (for example, shifting from a fully awakened state with strong sensations of energy and separating from the body are associated with OBEs, whereas becoming conscious during a dream or entering a dream reality from the waking state lacking the sensations associated with OBEs are associated with lucid dreams) usually lead to differing characteristics of one's consciousness and the mechanics of the experience that correspond to the method and process of entering the altered state time and time again. The fact that there are differences that correspond with each method is not so much debatable as is what these differences actually mean.

One test that is common to tell the difference is to attempt to change one's environment. This is usually done with ease during lucid dreams, whereas it can be nearly impossible during some OBEs, particularly those in lower dimensions (those immediately above the physical plane). Higher planes seem to be more responsive to thought than the lower ones. It is actually theorized that lucid dreams take place in the astral, a high level of the astral that is completely molded by subconscious and conscious thought. Who is to say that this isn't the case?

Even higher level of astral and also mental dimension are very hard to change. Yes, if you are not disciplined enough, your subconscious mind can slip a bits of imagination into your OBE. Generally, lucid dream is just dream with added lucidity. Your consciousness, your senses... everything is from less clear to as normal as in real life. But when you do OBE... The higher dimension(or level of particular dimension) you experience the stronger consciousness seems to be. When I was in budhic dimension, then everything seemed to be uncontrollable. I wasn't even able to move in my surrounding at the start. It was so very different in comparison to mental dimension which is again more difficult than astral one.
I'm not sure about drug induced experiences... In my opinion they have not the quality of common OBE. You do something to your consciousness but your consciousness is not ready for going out.

IMO, OBE believers are fooled by their brain and are just experiencing a very very convincing dream, something between the FA (where we are convinced to be awoken in our real bedroom) and the LD (where we have a great potential to think, observe, being aware).
I experienced OBE/AS as well as LDs, and it reminds me when I experienced Salvia Divinorium.

In both experiences (OBE/AS and Salvia trip) I was convinced, during the experience, that what I was living was deeply real, authentic, more authentic that reality, while I was just fooled by my brain (I understood that when I came back).

Imagine living such OBEs hundreds if not thousands of times ... you'll never be able to come back from this strong belief that you are really leaving your body or really traveling in a parallel non physical dimension called Astral plan. Only few OBEs/AP are enough to be certain that you are living an authentic paranormal experiences if you enter in this belief.
It's even more real if you were believing that before living your first OBE/AP (by reading books about it).

Thing is that even our perception of reality is 100% produced by our brain from the electric stimulus arriving in the brain from our sensitive organs, so we are fooled by our brain all the time, thinking that when we see something or touch something, the sensation comes from the outside whereas it is built and felt by and in our brain. (even if the real world exists outside of our body).

Believers will have a high skill in finding arguments that seam to show that OBE/AP are real, but it is only because they want to believe it so hard that they can't do anything but being 110% sure that this is real.
You'll notice that all their evidences will be subjective or coming from a man who knows a man who is able to move something in the real world, and so on.

One argument that Wagonner uses in his book Gateway to the Inner Self. Which is about Lucid Dreaming by the the way and it's potential for exploring mystical states and learning about the 'inner self'. He postulates the idea that the Creative power of the unconscious self in dreams seems to surpass the capacity that the Human Subconscious can logically have. I.e. Lucid Dreams can produce worlds and states of mind such as ego-death. That have zero relationship with the content of memory/experience that a human mind has in waking life. Thus, what mechanism but a higher mind of sorts is capable of producing such mystical experiences.

-I personally am reasonably convinced of a reality in OBEs due to various coincidences. And a trust in other people's reports. One guy reports meditating on low dose of LSD and feeling his consciousness expand out into the street like a bubble. He noticed an absurd scene of a horse walking through the street, like it was the middle ages. Then later he went to that exact spot outside and noticed horse poo. ??

Then in my own experience there have been several occasions where I felt my own consciousness expand like a bubble. This hands me a clue that this is something that we can all do. Hence this is a coincidence. Then able to sense smells/textures of clothings and environments that are not in the proximity of my nose or my tongue. Hence, my brain seems to be able to atleast construe a valid picture of something not in range of my 5 sense organs.

I have had a period in which I was quite sensitive to ESP. Two experiences stand out for me, one of seeing my friend walk to my appartment and having him knock on the door 2 seconds later. Another one was getting a text message from my dad while lying in bed , in trance, and him calling me a second later.

I liken Entity Contact experiences such as those of Machine-Elves, Jesters, snakes etc. as interesting ways to unveil truths about the nature of the universe. One such thing are Jesters explaining in a shamanic experience of a book that I am reading that they say our universe is created by them as mere Toys. Then someone else with no connection to this experience says that An entity in the DMt-trance , known as our "mother' has created our reality as a toy so that we do not get bored. Terence Mckenna goes out to explain that Machine-elves are teaching him to sing Uneffable objects/toys of universal proportions with the use of Intent out of his voice. Do you see the insane coincidence?

There's a lot more where this came from. While not ur typical OBE experiences. There are instances where my friend was able to see my bones through my skin during a mushroom trip. And in another instance I have seen a person through my wall during a mushroom experience. Who wasn't supposed to be there. Where later someone verified for me that this person actually was there in the exact spot that I have seen him. In a sober instance I traveled with my mind to the room of my friend and saw her lying in bed. It looked very real. I did not get to verify this experience but since i have been right in the past, this at least opens up the ability that I actually saw her where she was at that moment.

Kaan you are quite right. I know what I'm experiencing, I feel differences between the experiences, but there is always possibility we are fooled by our brain. I keep that in my mind, and till I have good proof that I really move out of body... to that time I never can be sure.

Be little more cautious to tell that something is 100% sure, even 110% When you give such numbers it is often sure that you are wrong... at least partially.

Originally Posted by Kaan

IMO, OBE believers are fooled by their brain and are just experiencing a very very convincing dream, something between the FA (where we are convinced to be awoken in our real bedroom) and the LD (where we have a great potential to think, observe, being aware).
I experienced OBE/AS as well as LDs, and it reminds me when I experienced Salvia Divinorium.

In both experiences (OBE/AS and Salvia trip) I was convinced, during the experience, that what I was living was deeply real, authentic, more authentic that reality, while I was just fooled by my brain (I understood that when I came back).

Imagine living such OBEs hundreds if not thousands of times ... you'll never be able to come back from this strong belief that you are really leaving your body or really traveling in a parallel non physical dimension called Astral plan. Only few OBEs/AP are enough to be certain that you are living an authentic paranormal experiences if you enter in this belief.
It's even more real if you were believing that before living your first OBE/AP (by reading books about it).

Thing is that even our perception of reality is 100% produced by our brain from the electric stimulus arriving in the brain from our sensitive organs, so we are fooled by our brain all the time, thinking that when we see something or touch something, the sensation comes from the outside whereas it is built and felt by and in our brain. (even if the real world exists outside of our body).

Believers will have a high skill in finding arguments that seam to show that OBE/AP are real, but it is only because they want to believe it so hard that they can't do anything but being 110% sure that this is real.
You'll notice that all their evidences will be subjective or coming from a man who knows a man who is able to move something in the real world, and so on.

It sounds to me like you are the one being fooled! Why? Because you are completely ruling out the possibility of these experiences being genuine without sufficient evidence to do so. The truely intellectually honest approach would be to accept the possibility that they are genuine, as there is absolutely no proof that they are not, and there is enough subjective corroborative evidence to suggest that OBEs are different in some way than LDs, therefore placing an acceptible level of doubt on the notion that OBEs and LDs are the same exact phenomenon. You are essentially guilty of the very same wishful thinking as those you are speaking out against.

Originally Posted by VinceField

It sounds to me like you are the one being fooled! Why? Because you are completely ruling out the possibility of these experiences being genuine without sufficient evidence to do so. The truely intellectually honest approach would be to accept the possibility that they are genuine, as there is absolutely no proof that they are not, and there is enough subjective corroborative evidence to suggest that OBEs are different in some way than LDs, therefore placing an acceptible level of doubt on the notion that OBEs and LDs are the same exact phenomenon. You are essentially guilty of the very same wishful thinking as those you are speaking out against.

The question pointed out in this thread is "How to be reasonably certain you are having an OBE rather than a lucid dream?" , not "is there a chance that it could be possible".

my answer to the second question would be yes, maybe.
My answer the the question of this thread is that I don't think the subjective certitudes are something you can trust with any doubt as the brain is absolutely able to produce these dreamlike experiences called OBE or LD, as well as it can also produce a scary and real like Sleep Paralysis scenarios.
It's really not an issue for the brain to make you live a fucking real like experience and making you persuaded that what you are living is the real shit.

yes, you can say that " there is absolutely no proof that they are not (legit)", as you can say that there is absolutely no proof that there is not an enormous alien spaceship behind the hidden side of the sun, but this kind of argument has no real value.
That's the kind of tricky argument you can use when you want to defend a belief, presenting it as a fact but without the beginning of a proof that it is a fact.
So you attack the opposed position telling them that they can not prove that the magical thing you believe in is not legit.

OBE and LD have a lot more in common that what you suggest.
One of the differences you pointed out is the impossibility of changing environment.
I had OBEs where I could change the environment, and I had a LD where I couldn't change anything.
So this is not big difference between both.

When You try a WILD, sometimes it starts like a classical LD, but if you are too focused on your body sensations for example(real body or dream body), you have chances to live an OBE, but a part from the scenario, the context, the expectation, I don't see a serious reason to be certain that OBE are something else than a Dream scenario, except this tricky certitude you have when you live it, which could be an hallucinated feeling.

What I wanted to add is that some people think that if they can bring back some checkable objective data from their OBE, then this is the evidence that OBE is a real out of body travel of the self.
But if you accept the existence of ESP, like telepathy, remote viewing (let's be opened mind) then you can not pretend anymore that the OBE must be real if such data are reported, cause you still can see the OBE as a special dream where checkable Data from the real world are projected in the dream scenario.

So, to be certain that OBE/AP are something else than some special kind of dream/LD, you can think it, you can be persuaded of it, but for me this is far from being an objective fact.

Originally Posted by Kaan

The question pointed out in this thread is "How to be reasonably certain you are having an OBE rather than a lucid dream?" , not "is there a chance that it could be possible".

my answer to the second question would be yes, maybe.

In your original response you seemed quite certain that OBEs are nothing but convincing dreams.

My answer the the question of this thread is that I don't think the subjective certitudes are something you can trust with any doubt as the brain is absolutely able to produce these dreamlike experiences called OBE or LD, as well as it can also produce a scary and real like Sleep Paralysis scenarios.
It's really not an issue for the brain to make you live a fucking real like experience and making you persuaded that what you are living is the real shit.

Haha such strong language! I agree for the most part. The differences between the experiences are not something to be ignored, however, and suggest that perhaps they shouldn't be so easily lumped into the same category of experience.

yes, you can say that " there is absolutely no proof that they are not (legit)", as you can say that there is absolutely no proof that there is not an enormous alien spaceship behind the hidden side of the sun, but this kind of argument has no real value.

It has value to those who value having an open mind, although it is equally important to evaluate the likelihood of any given possibility. The possibility we are speaking of here may be more likely than the one you compared it to based on the experiences of many.

OBE and LD have a lot more in common that what you suggest.
One of the differences you pointed out is the impossibility of changing environment.
I had OBEs where I could change the environment, and I had a LD where I couldn't change anything.
So this is not big difference between both.

They do have a lot in common, more in common than not. I simply stated that there are differences that may hold some significance. I didn't say it was impossible to change the environment during an OBE. I said it can be nearly impossible to change the environment during some OBEs. Not all of these experiences are cut from the same cloth, there is a seemingly wide array of dimensions with their own unique characteristics which affect one's consciousness and one's abilities during the experience.

When You try a WILD, sometimes it starts like a classical LD, but if you are too focused on your body sensations for example(real body or dream body), you have chances to live an OBE, but a part from the scenario, the context, the expectation, I don't see a serious reason to be certain that OBE are something else than a Dream scenario, except this tricky certitude you have when you live it, which could be an hallucinated feeling.

Yes, perhaps claiming to have 100% epistemic certainty is a bit foolish when dealing with this realm of experience. Psychological certainty is another story.

So, to be certain that OBE/AP are something else than some special kind of dream/LD, you can think it, you can be persuaded of it, but for me this is far to be an objective fact.

For me as well.

Take care

Originally Posted by VinceField

They do have a lot in common, more in common than not. I simply stated that there are differences that may hold some significance. I didn't say it was impossible to change the environment during an OBE. I said it can be nearly impossible to change the environment during some OBEs.

Really? Wouldn't changing the environment during an OBE literally change the physical environment? That seems fairly impressive, and to me would be impossible without the presence of some (currently) supernatural ability or energy. After all, an OBE'er would somehow be using his nonphysical form to influence physical reality... from where is he drawing the energy to change the environment? Also, I've never heard of this being done (and have certainly tried, myself, many times); wouldn't reports of changing the environment through OBE's have emerged by now?

I think that, given what we currently know, it probably is impossible to change the environment during an OBE. You could probably feel comfortable sticking to your guns on your original comparison here Vince, as it seems valid.

And Snoop: I can't help thinking that if you switched "OBE" with "LD" throughout this thread, the same questions would be raised. When we are basing the existence of an entire genre of personal experience on nothing more than how we remember it, and memory can be remarkably unreliable, I think we are on some pretty soft ground for proving it as real at all, even to ourselves, much less differentiating an OBE from a LD. [I feel like I just said all this on another thread...] I think an OBE'er (or dreamer, for that matter) would need to first master their own memory before even thinking about differentiating an LD from an OBE.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Really? Wouldn't changing the environment during an OBE literally change the physical environment? That seems fairly impressive, and to me would be impossible without the presence of some (currently) supernatural ability or energy. After all, an OBE'er would somehow be using his nonphysical form to influence physical reality... from where is he drawing the energy to change the environment? Also, I've never heard of this being done (and have certainly tried, myself, many times); wouldn't reports of changing the environment through OBE's have emerged by now?

You are assuming here that the environment experienced during an OBE is the physical environment. Even when the environment closely resembles the physical world, it is probably not the case that the projector is actually operating within the physical dimension. It is actually a rather common experience for the OBE environment (one appearing as a nearly exact replica of the physical world) to change seemingly on its own accord. Considering the plethora of dimensions possible to experience beyond the physical world during an OBE (call it astral projection if you may, I am using these words synonymously), I think it's safe to say that alterations of these nonphysical environments have absolutely nothing to do with the physical dimension.

^^ You are correct. I naively assumed that an OBE would mean that you have exited your physical body and moved your essence into your waking-life's physical environment... hence the whole "OBE" thing. I had also assumed that travel to other dimensions beyond the physical world was the role of AP, so clearly I've been out of the loop of the developing OBE/AP lexicon...hmm; this does sort of explain why I've always considered OBE'ing a potentially dull exercise (i.e., why would I want to make the effort to leave my body just to powerlessly float around my own home or neighborhood?).

Still, wouldn't the same issues exist for making changes in other dimensions, regardless of how nonphysical they may be? After all, they are still places separate from your own mind/dreamscape, so there would still need to be some unusual force necessary to make changes -- arguably even more unusual than your original physical dimension, given their possibly extreme alien nature.

So, Vince, I stand by what I said earlier: in my opinion, based on both my apparently antiquated view of OBE and my equal reluctance to believe we innately have the power to change the environments of new dimensions well beyond the range of our dreaming minds, you were still correct in the first place!

But none of this has anything to do with knowing you are definitely OBE'ing, does it?

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ You are correct. I naively assume that an OBE would mean that you have exited your physical body and moved your essence into your waking-life's physical environment... hence the whole "OBE" thing. I had also assumed that travel to other dimensions beyond the physical world was the role of AP, so clearly I've been out of the loop of the developing OBE/AP lexicon...hmm; this does sort of explain why I've always considered OBE'ing a potentially dull exercise (i.e., why would I want to make the effort to leave my body just to powerlessly float around my own home or neighborhood?).

Still, wouldn't the same issues exist for making changes in other dimensions, regardless of how nonphysical they may be? After all, they are still places separate from your own mind/dreamscape, so there would still need to be some unusual force necessary to make changes -- arguably even more unusual than your original physical dimension, given their possibly extreme alien nature.

So, Vince, I stand by what I said earlier: in my opinion, based on both my apparently antiquated view of OBE and my equal reluctance to believe we innately have the power to change the environments of new dimensions well beyond the range of our dreaming minds, you were still correct in the first place!

But none of this has anything to do with knowing you are definitely OBE'ing, does it?

Regarding unusual force needed to change nonphysical dimensions, apparently certain dimensions respond to conscious and subconscious thought and energy as an almost natural function of the substance that makes up the environment. I wouldn't assume that nonphysical reality takes on the same characteristics as the physical plane, especially given the extremely limited nature of our physical world compared to the inner/nonphysical realms experienced during LDs and OBEs. It has also been found that certain dimensions eventually revert back to their original state when consciously altered, the changes only lasting temporarily. The way I understand the nature of nonphysical reality, it is essentially a multidimensional universe constructed by the energy of the mind (actually a co-creation of every individual mind in existence, or in other words, The One Mind or Source as a whole), so it wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that this mind-created universe can be changed with the same material that helped to build it.

But yes, none of this actually addresses the OP directly, it is merely a side note addressing concepts that arose along the way.

Kilindi Iyi speaks of going to similar places with his partners across the globe during mushroom travels. He speaks of leaving a marker in the non-physical dimension. (a crude example is something like a Flag) . This is an alteration of the dimension and quite good evidence that this is not just in the mind.

There's an entity described by someone on the internet. I noticed an entity that looked exactly as described. We had a chat and we discussed this other person briefly. I could devise a strategy in which I ask an entity to reveal information to someone else and see if that can bring evidence of a mutual contact. I also seem to be able to find another person's energy. This is subjective and requires total honesty to find real confirmation.

Okay, I'll go around one more time, but just with a couple of quick thoughts:

Originally Posted by VinceField

Regarding unusual force needed to change nonphysical dimensions, apparently certain dimensions respond to conscious and subconscious thought and energy as an almost natural function of the substance that makes up the environment.

Really? You worded that with some authority; other than your own experience, is there any evidence, anywhere, of these certain dimensions and their characteristics? If so, please share; I would love to check them out.

I wouldn't assume that nonphysical reality takes on the same characteristics as the physical plane, especially given the extremely limited nature of our physical world compared to the inner/nonphysical realms experienced during LDs and OBEs.

I didn't assume that. On the contrary, I assumed the opposite. When I said that I was figuring that other dimensions might take on characteristics that are so far removed from anything in our universe that everything would be completely alien to us, including the ability for our mind or its energies to function there... it seems much less likely to me that other dimensions would cooperate with us at all, so my assumption was actually the opposite of what you assumed; sorry for the confusion.

It has also been found that certain dimensions eventually revert back to their original state when consciously altered, the changes only lasting temporarily.

It has? Again, by whom?

The way I understand the nature of nonphysical reality, it is essentially a multidimensional universe constructed by the energy of the mind (actually a co-creation of every individual mind in existence, or in other words, The One Mind or Source as a whole), so it wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that this mind-created universe can be changed with the same material that helped to build it.

That's the way you understand it, which is fine. But we don't all understand it that way, nor should we, given what any of us actually know. It also wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that the universe was constructed of its own accord over the course of billions of years, with no help of the energy of some sort of consciousness groupmind. There really are other ways of seeing these things, and I think seeing the universe as a product of itself that exists with or without the presence of Mind is just as valid, if not a bit more sensible (especially considering that, as far as we know, the universe existed long before any minds did).

[Full disclosure: I did actually write a book some time ago that (playfully) implies the opposite of what I just said, so I may be more open to your viewpoint than you might think; I just felt another viewpoint was necessary, especially on this thread.]

But yes, none of this actually addresses the OP directly, it is merely a side note addressing concepts that arose along the way.

Actually, now I think it might just address the OP directly, because you are speaking of these other dimensions as though they are real places (which you may fully believe and that, again, is just fine), and the only evidence you have to support that, and that you have been there, is your memory of your OBE travels.

I am not of course saying they were, but what if those memories are indeed memories of particularly unusual dreams? Again, I'm not arguing, and have no interest in reading about all your experience; I'm just pointing out that everything we have for proof of our own experiences is the memory of those experiences -- no pictures, no recordings, no returned objects, no physical objects changed or moved during OBE's (and yes, I do admire the convenience of OBE's happening in other dimensions, so they cannot be easily tested by simply identifying or moving stuff in your own waking-life house), no corroborating witnesses*, not even written notes -- and memory can be a very fallible tool, especially in the realm of dreams.

Snoop poses an excellent question in his OP, and its answer I think lies in memory; so I guess I was more on-topic than I originally thought.


* Speaking of corroborating witnesses:

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Kilindi Iyi speaks of going to similar places with his partners across the globe during mushroom travels. He speaks of leaving a marker in the non-physical dimension. (a crude example is something like a Flag) . This is an alteration of the dimension and quite good evidence that this is not just in the mind.

Does it count as evidence if a person and his friends simply say it is? I'm not sure. Those trippers may all believe their markers were placed in other dimensions, but they are still basing the existence of those flags on their memories, and nothing else. Yes, their memories may be similar, but there could be other more mundane reasons for that similarity.

I have met an entity described by someone on the internet. We discussed this other person briefly. I could devise a strategy in which I ask an entity to reveal information to someone else and see if that can bring evidence of a mutual contact.

That would be a fine strategy to devise, I think, and would certainly help you define where you've been at least for yourself; though it seems it would prove dream-sharing rather than OBE's. Regardless, good luck with it!



Again, just sayin,' and not picking a fight.

Sageous

Look into the work of Jurgen Ziewe and Robert Bruce to find reports that corroborate the ideas I've shared that you've questioned. Ziewe's website multidimensionalman.com is full of quality information.

The times that I speak of dimensions and such things like they are real is simply for convenience. I am fully aware that it all may be an illusion and/or delusion.

Kaan
It could be:
Dream is when you are in astral(OBE) but you don't know it, you are surrounded and blinded in the theatre of your imagination
Lucid dream starts, when you know that you are in that theatre...
OBE is when you start to see beyond imagination...

But this would be possible if our brains are only the antennas of our soul. One can get entangled into philosophic aspects of possibilities...

Wow, I'm glad this thread has gotten so much discussion so far, nice.

Originally Posted by VinceField

You are assuming here that the environment experienced during an OBE is the physical environment. Even when the environment closely resembles the physical world, it is probably not the case that the projector is actually operating within the physical dimension. It is actually a rather common experience for the OBE environment (one appearing as a nearly exact replica of the physical world) to change seemingly on its own accord. Considering the plethora of dimensions possible to experience beyond the physical world during an OBE (call it astral projection if you may, I am using these words synonymously), I think it's safe to say that alterations of these nonphysical environments have absolutely nothing to do with the physical dimension.

I definitely have to say, in this case, that you are arguing something entirely different here. I never even considered the fact that an OBE could take place in a dimension separate from the physical plane. That being said, it makes little sense to me for this experience to be called an OBE. I have to ask a question at this point. During OBEs, do you still have some kind of "astral body" or are you merely an observer? If the former, how is this any different from a dream, if it doesn't take place in our physical "dimension"? If the latter, is the absence of a body the sole criterion for an experience to be labeled as one such as out-of-body? If that's the case, I've had plenty of dreams that were OBEs. If that doesn't quite meet the criteria for an OBE, then what additional conditions must be met?

The thing that just left me the most confused was why you would call an experience that doesn't take place in our physical dimension an OBE. An overwhelming majority of OBErs claim that OBE is real, and the only proof they can provide is to observe something that they could never observe given they are lying down in another room. If they go somewhere else, you move into completely unfalsifiable territory, like shared dreaming. We cannot, with our current technology and understanding of the reality we inhabit, possibly hope to prove or disprove a totally subjective experience. There really isn't too much reason trying to argue what something is and isn't at that point.

The thread was created initially to typify that point, but it was also to get those who believe they are indeed having OBEs explaining how they are so certain it is actually and why they believe that to be true. Given the fact you only have your own senses to rely on in such an experience, with no third party to verify what you think you know, then how can you know? And I don't mean to say it is impossible to have an OBE with this statement, it shouldn't be taken that way. It is simply a question of how it is you can actually know what is going on without any technology or tools backing up what you are experiencing. The obvious answer should really be that you can't, but since people are still convinced, I wanted to know why they believed that. So far I have yet to see any answer that shows how you can truly know what you think you know is happening.

I think I addressed the OP's question in my initial post- if you can't willingly change your environment, then you might just be in the OBE state, that is, in a nonphysical dimension not created by the subconscious mind (as lucid dreams seem to be), a consensus nonphysical reality that exists independent of your own mind. I've never had a lucid dream in which I wasn't able to execute change or manifestation at will, although I am sure there are those who have encountered mental blocks or limiting beliefs that have prevented this, so the test I suggested may not serve as definite proof as to the nature of one's reality.

As far as the definition of OBE relating to the physical dimension, there is nothing inherent about the words "out of body experience" that necessitate the physical dimension. The majority of those experienced in OBEs or astral projection (that I have read or spoken to) understand that these experiences do not take place in the physical dimension, even when the environment looks just like it. Consciousness is leaving the body which is located in the physical dimension and exploring higher dimensions of reality. Consciousness usually inhabits an energy body during OBEs, although sometimes I've just been a point of consciousness in what seems to be "mental projections." Perhaps there isn't much difference between these and lucid dreams, although again, there are small differences in the state of consciousness experienced and the abilities that one has over one's experience and the environment that indicated they are not exactly the same.

Originally Posted by VinceField

I think I addressed the OP's question in my initial post- if you can't willingly change your environment, then you might just be in the OBE state, that is, in a nonphysical dimension not created by the subconscious mind (as lucid dreams seem to be), a consensus nonphysical reality that exists independent of your own mind. I've never had a lucid dream in which I wasn't able to execute change or manifestation at will, although I am sure there are those who have encountered mental blocks or limiting beliefs that have prevented this, so the test I suggested may not serve as definite proof as to the nature of one's reality.

Okay, it's possible, but what makes it any more likely than being out of your body on the physical plane? It seems like you are favoring your understanding, but honestly you keep positing more and more information--or at the very least, your explanation relies on highly specific criteria. Normally specificity is a good thing, if used correctly. However, you are being specific about requirements that have virtually no evidence supporting their existence at all. Saying you can OBE is one thing, but going further to explain which dimension you are in? The only reason right now I can see for even postulating something like that is to circumvent the possibility of ever proving OBEs wrong, and you are doing so by purposefully obscuring the definition and requirements for OBEs. Instead of OBEs actually being dreams, now they are things very like dreams but have a tiny difference. Why wouldn't we include the word dream in such an ability? You normally aren't lucid when you dream, and your lucidity makes your dream slightly different, much like how you are defining OBEs. Yet, we still call them lucid dreams. We know that lucidity is not just something you are or aren't, either. You can be partially lucid to varying degrees, altering your level of control and awareness of what is going on. Why wouldn't an OBE simply be a lucid dream in which you have little to no control over? I've had plenty of lucid dreams that I couldn't control, I don't feel like that is valid evidence for proving an OBE is truly an OBE.

We really need to be straight forward here, what definition of OBE are we going to go by? The term, in this discussion, can not be fluid in meaning. That's just confusing and futile to discuss. It already appears I am not alone in believing it means you are out of your body in the physical plane. So far, vince, you are the only one to talk about having OBEs in non physical realities that we have no way of knowing exist, and even if we invent a technology that allows us to experience what others are experiencing, we still couldn't know if they were simply in a dream or not.

There is possibility that OBE(astral and higher dimension contains lower dimensions inside....
Lets see...
1D object (line) contains infinite number of 0D objects(points)
2D object (plane) contains infinite number of 1D objects (line) and also infinite number of 0D objects(points)
3D object (volume(cube, sphere)) contains infinite number of 2D object (planes), infinite number of 1D objects (line) and also infinite number of 0D objects(points)
4D object (volume(cube, sphere)+time) contains infinite number of3D object (volume(cube, sphere)) in different time dimension which doesn't mean only past and future, but also parallel universes. Next it contains also infinite number of 2D object (planes), infinite number of 1D objects (line) and also infinite number of 0D objects(points) We are prisoners of the time, therefore we can't travel in 4D , therefore it was said we are living in 3D space only partially influenced by the time... Or how to say it. Simply, if the time is fully realized in the matter and energy it would be easy to travel trough time and visit alternative timelines...

Astral is said to be 5 dimensional. Therefore it has infinity of 4 dimensional spaces. Now, Imagine looking on physical world from the point of view from 5th dimension. We are used to perceive 3D space... and we can measure the time. Now, what if you can't distinguish which physical dimension (3D+time) is yours? What if you are seeing a few of them at once? Sometimes I see something like blurring around objects... the more easy movable object the larger blurring. I theorized that I see object probability of being at the particular place... And probability of existence also means possible parallel universes... If I see many 4 dimensional universes closest to ours at once, then I would see such blurring...
Mental dimension is said to be in 5D too... But Budhic dimension is said to be in 6D. The much more difficult existence in Budhic dimension is in my opinion based on lack of my mental discipline But it could be also because of problem of my mind to interpret what I perceive, and that could lead to problems with adjusting the state of my mind.

What did I written??? Sorry for my english. This is difficult to explain.

I differentiate between OBE and dreams by the state of mind. In LD where I manage to see beyond dream, I usually wake up my OBE "superconsciousness". Everything changes with that. Even environment. Sometimes I find myself closeby to my physical body, sometimes I find myself elsewhere. But there is that "superconsciousness". The higher level of dimension, or the higher dimension, the stronger consciousness is.

I appreciate that you responded, but you are guilty of what I already explained vince is guilty of.

Originally Posted by Psionik

Astral is said to be 5 dimensional. Therefore it has infinity of 4 dimensional spaces.

I respond with:

Originally Posted by snoop

It seems like you are favoring your understanding, but honestly you keep positing more and more information--or at the very least, your explanation relies on highly specific criteria. Normally specificity is a good thing, if used correctly. However, you are being specific about requirements that have virtually no evidence supporting their existence at all. Saying you can OBE is one thing, but going further to explain which dimension you are in? The only reason right now I can see for even postulating something like that is to circumvent the possibility of ever proving OBEs wrong, and you are doing so by purposefully obscuring the definition and requirements for OBEs.

.

I like that you are posting your ideas, but they simply suffer from the same fate as the ideas that vince presented.

Snoop... If I could produce myself as apparition, or poltergeist while in OBE, then I would have more than deductions from my experiences... My visions of the future are not very reliable, and they are far in between. My visions of present time is even less frequent. I can't do them on will. Therefore I don't have proof to be 100% sure.
Everything is too personal and subjective. What more could we have other than hypotheses? Physically speaking, we can't prove 5 and higher dimensional space even if for example string theory needs for its functioning 11 dimensions. It functions in mathematics of string theory, but experiments don't show that to us. The same is the dark matter. 21% of the universe... Mathematics and astronomic observations are telling us that there needs to be matter and energy which we don't see. Scientists are talking about dark matter, but nobody has observed it... Ok, I can live with existence of something miniscule unobservable... maybe similar to neutrinos but even more elusive. Or something massive, but not interacting with matter. But what more, more than 74% of the universe is in the form of the dark energy!!! What is the dark energy? How can be energy dark? Photons are photons. Electromagnetic rays.

Perhaps, Snoop, you could simply set the definition yourself, just for the sake of keeping the conversation focused on your OP? It is your thread, after all.

The definition could be the "classic" understanding that an OBE is an event where your consciousness leaves your body but remains in the physical world. This is not only because I agree with it, but because it is simple, and it tends to be what people generally see first as an OBE (they tend to see AP as the inter-dimensional travel vehicle). Also, the feeling that we are out of our body and in the physical realm (like, say, our bedroom) is probably one most experienced LDers have encountered at least once, so the chances would improve that we are all talking about the same thing. Again, the main rationale might just be that this definition is simple, familiar, and requires no discussion of things like other dimensions.

I think that even people who disagree with that definition could probably still be able to discuss how they prove to themselves where they have been... this might be worth a shot, just to move this interesting conversation past its definition stage...

I've actually never had much interest in "proving" where these experiences take place, nor in proving that they are real as opposed to hallucinations. Rather, I focus on how I can use the experiences to better improve myself in terms of spiritual growth and my understanding and knowledge of my self and reality. There is a state of knowing, I call it "higher knowing," that takes place during higher-level experiences, such as the ones when I have merged with my Higher Self and experienced oneness with God/the universe/all of creation (or at least had the apparent experience of doing so), in which there is absolutely no doubt of the reality of the experience and the truth of the insights that come with it. The doubts come only afterwards when the limited physically-attuned consciousness focal point is regained. So one potentially valid perspective may be to see and try to understand the experiences from the limited physical standpoint, but perhaps an even more valid perspective is to see these experiences and reality itself, including physical life, from this higher-level perspective, as it is made crystal clear during these experiences that these dimensions in which divinity is experienced are actually one's true home, one's natural state once shed of the limitations imposed in the physical world. But hey, maybe these are just temporary psychotic episodes.

Snoop, I think if you asked any distinguished or experienced out-of-body traveler, they will likewise tell you that these experiences don't take place in the physical dimension. In my experience, I've never actually found a truly identical version of the physical world during my OBEs. There has always been some slight variations in the very least, and at most grand distortions. This dimensional model comes from countless experiences and corroboration among travelers of all backgrounds and belief systems. Personally, I never say "I am in x dimension" because there are no signs out there saying "Welcome to x dimension!" It is more a matter of recognizing the unique properties of consciousness and reality and correspondence between these and previous experiences which helps to form some kind of general understanding of what level of reality one is in, although knowing this in a definite sense is not something that has been possible for me, nor very desirable. I honestly think the question in the OP may be a bit misguided. Focusing on proof is meaningless if true spiritual growth can be obtained from these experiences, regardless of what you label them or how they are induced.