Time and the Dreaming Mind (DM)

[madmagus]

This is a followup on my last thread Twisted Logic. As stated, our dreaming minds (DM) are Masters of the Now. The DM is hyper-vigilant of the Moment. It is so much so that it has forgotten, for lack of a better defining statement, that it has a past. What this really means is that the DM has no concept of time. As has been discussed in many, many books on the topic, there is no time in the non-physical reality space. There is simply 'NOW'. If there is no concept of time, there can only be 'now.' I stated in my last that being too much in the now was what we fight against when trying to become lucid. What that actually means is that we are fighting to incorporate the idea of the past, the very idea of Time itself, on our DM in order to acquire lucidity. The DM has no reason to look for memories in its current condition, because memories are by their very nature elements of the past. And if the past does not exist, memories do not exist. Every time a dream scene changes, the DM just goes along with the flow because the 'now' is the new scene. There is no correlation to the last scene which might indeed cause conflict, because there is no last scene as far as the DM is concerned. Thus, there is no discontinuity. There can not be. We must find a way to conveniently push a memory into the dreaming mind if we wish to acquire consistent lucid dreams. This, I believe, is what we are all working toward, whether we realize our true goal or not. But if the true goal is more specific in your minds, perhaps the solution will more readily be acquired. And thus, looking down the hill, I give the ball a kick. Good dreaming all.

[madmagus]

How to create the reflective state in our dreaming consciousness. Perhaps something as simple as getting into a meditative state just before bed, to better tap into the unconscious directly, and reviewing our day, acknowledging it as a series of past events. What was I doing today? Or perhaps begin practicing a form of reflective meditation as a daily practice. You could simply save the meditation to do just before going to bed, or as you are preparing for bed, so that relaxed, reflective state is still fresh as you drift into sleep or as you perform an LD technique of choice. I'm not sure if reflective meditation will effectively, or seamlessly, translate into dreaming reality, but I'm going to give it a go and see what happens. I have no expertise in this form of meditation, so you'll have to look it up to get an expert's opinion if you need details. Personally, I'm like the average male who won't stop for directions until after I'm lost. So, I'm going to wing it. See what happens. Perhaps it won't be as time consuming as I expect to teach the dreaming mind to think reflectively. Has anyone had success along these lines, and they're just keeping it secret?

[BlairBros]

I've read this thread and your other one and I think you are on to something here. From what little I know of Dream Yoga you seem to have reached the same practices that they encourage, like reviewing the day before bed and meditation before falling asleep. I have also noticed how I don't have a proper sense of time in dreams, even so far as I often rewind time or do the same thing over and over again without realising it! Not to mention all of the jump cuts. I also agree with your theory that most techniques try to get us to remember something in the dream, such as mantras of "Am I dreaming?" or reality checks. I was wondering if you think the subconscious might be the way to bring memories into the dream, or with enough of a specific practice the conscious mind might be able to implant a memory in the dream? You have obviously put a lot more thought into this than I have , I am interested to see how you go. EDIT: I just listened to a talk about dream yoga and (religious/spiritual explanations that don't really make sense incoming :p) according to that the dream realm (astral realm) doesn't actually have time, it is above time as it is in the 5th dimension where the 4th is time, which definitely matches up with what you have noticed. I obviously can't vouch for the legitimacy of that explanation but the recognition of time behaving strangely is still there. Just found it interesting.

[madmagus]

Thank you, BlairBros, for your thought-out response. Regarding your comment about the subconscious mind being the inroad to reaching the dream mind, I look at the dreaming mind as an amalgam of your mind as a whole. It's as close as we normally come to being within, for lack of a better term, the sub/unconscious, with direct access to potential reprogramming, or simple adventure without 3D physical restrictions. Meditation, self-hypnosis, RCs and mantras, or auto-suggestion, are methods we can use from within the conscious state to reach the deeper levels of mind that we are not used to reaching in said state. So, in that respect, we are using them to interact with the sub/unconscious. And by normal I mean waking, Beta-level consciousness. I have only read a bit and listened to lectures on Dream Yoga, so I have no expertise, but I acknowledge the same topics you mention. Specifically about bringing memories into the dream state; I'm hoping that something from the concoction of ideas above that we will instigate the dreaming mind to remember. I may have used the phrase 'forcing' a memory on the dreaming mind, or something similar, but in reality I simply mean instigating it to be reflective. We have all been trying to do this for a long time, with mixed success. The majority of people simply don't look at the process from within the construct of Time. They view the problem as one that can be externally fixed or that we can impress an idea into the sub/unconscious self. To a degree we already do that when we instill habits, consciously or not. I'm just trying to lead the conversation in a slightly different direction by focusing on memory as an element of Time, an issue of impressing the dreaming mind with the concept of retrospection above all else. Everyone has their take on how to reach the dreaming mind. This is mine. And it is newly fermented. Some of that brainstorming took place on this forum by using my last two threads as white boards for my developing idea. Thanks again for your response. If you have any other ideas, I'd love to hear them. That's what forums are supposed to be about. Sharing new things. Growing ideas. I'm giving it a go.

[Sageous]

^^ I was planning on referencing an old thread of mine called There's no Such Thing as Time to add my thoughts on your interesting OP, but on reading your last post, that's probably not where you want to go (I'll leave the link, though, in case you're curious). I would like to add one little twist to your thoughts (definitely not an argument, BTW, because what you're saying makes sense): Accessing memory does not necessarily mean attaching a past to your Here&Now presence in the dream. There may be no need to force a memory or be retrospective, because all you really need to do is have your waking-life memory with you during the dream. Yes, memory is best accessed initially by drawing on a recent valid memory (like remembering your sleeping physical body), but you don't need to remember anything once you've gained access to memory. All you need is the presence of your memory, and the contribution it makes to the core of your identity, to maintain your self-awareness/lucidity. So: it may seem counter-intuitive, but -- after you've initially accessed it with a simple memory (like your sleeping body) -- you do not need to remember anything in order to have waking-life memory with you in a dream, so there may be no need to draw your past into your Here&Now dreaming moment.

[madmagus]

I'll look at your link certainly. I see what you are saying about the initial access to the simple memory being enough. What I was trying to say, perhaps poorly as I tend to lose myself in a ramble if I am not careful, is that retrospection is the impetus for that initial memory. I totally agree that we shouldn't need to have a continuous stream of memories necessary to maintain lucidity. Sorry if I gave that impression. The waking-life memory is exactly what I'm hoping to instigate from within the dream state, whether through auto-suggestion or otherwise. Having the waking-life memory 'with you' is of interest as well, because to my mind it implies that I am bringing it from the waking state into the dream as an intact thought, so to speak. Is this what you mean? As in an auto-suggestion or something similar? ***I just clicked to what you said in the first sentence of your second paragraph. I agree with it as well, as stated just above, without understanding exactly what you meant. We don't need to attach a memory element to our 'Now' dreaming mind, if you will, to keep lucidity. Once we have lucidity, we should automatically have access to our normal conscious memory (the degree off which will be based of course on the degree of lucidity we have attained in that particular dream.) I hope I understood you correctly this time. Thanks for insight.

[madmagus]

Sageous, I tried accessing your link, but a page comes up saying I don't have permission.

[Sageous]

^^ Hmm, that's odd; it comes right up for me... Well, you can try this one, and if that doesn't work, well, if you're really interested you can just go to the "latest started threads" prompt on my profile and look for it (I haven't started very many threads, so it's easy to find).

[DoubleHelix]

^^^ Same here. Both links indicate a lack of permission and suggest I might be trying to edit someone else's post.

[Sageous]

^^ That's weird; the links work fine for me. Maybe it's some new admin thing, like an anti-necro device, that prevents you from viewing an old thread, and only the guy that started it can access it. That seems really strange and counterproductive to me, but what do I know? In any case, you can get there thru my profile, if you still care at this point. Maybe an admin will chime in to explain what happened, and if our old work is being inexplicably censored...

[madmagus]

Yeah. The system is wonky. I went to your profile to pull up most recent started threads, and it gave me 20 total results with the most recent being 3/2015.

[Sageous]

^^ Not as wonky as it sounds... I think I've only started that many threads since I've been here, and I may not have started one since early last year (I'm not a big thread-starter). The Time thread ought to be in that set, BTW, if you're still interested. Still, it would have been nice if the links worked for you. [ I sure hope this diversion hasn't broken the cadence of this thread, because I think this is something well worth talking about ]

[fogelbise]

Interesting topic! Sageous, maybe you can copy the OP from your thread into a post here? It appears that whole "deep dreaming" section of DV is off limits to me as well = http://www.dreamviews.com/deep-dreaming/ (I remembered seeing it somewhere, and sure enough that section shows up under permission groups in the control panel.)

[gab]

*Moved to Beyond Dreaming Please read about Deep Dreaming subforum http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...ics-forum.html

[Sageous]

Aha, mystery solved! I didn't remember that that thread was in deep dreaming; thanks Gab!

[Wisher]

hmm, interesting premise. That continuity does not exist implies a few important oddities. 1. Grammar, numbers, logic, and just about anything that requires consistency is in fact a probabilistic assortment of random combinations. 2. From moment to moment we ourselves impress the idea of coherence upon a reality that is otherwise incoherent babble in actuality. Yes, this idea might have much merit although in a very confusing Alice in Wonderland sort of way. Honestly it makes a ton of sense however, some might tread lightly with these sort of thoughts as they lead to a startling awareness that reality is delusional. Just how far does the rabbit hole go now Alice? Was the Mad Hatter really so mad after all? If so aren't we all? p.s. Like Neo, maybe the adventure begins by following the White Rabbit if the adventurer can stomach such a strange journey.

[TravisE]

*Moved to Beyond Dreaming Please read about Deep Dreaming subforum http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...ics-forum.html How long does it generally take for the forum to update after moving something? I'm confused because I feel very certain I've read that thread before despite not being a member of that forum (and my browser seems to agree with me), but right now it still seems completely invisible to me even when I search for it.