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    Thread: opening the third eye or other chakras

    1. #1
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      opening the third eye or other chakras

      This thread is in response to Sageous and his statement that the third eye is a metaphor.

      Hi Sageous.

      I don't know much about the third eye, partially because I've never thought about it. But in my experience some of the other chakras are a lot more than metaphors. They have specific locations in the body and they do stuff, and I'm not getting this from reading about them anywhere. Ironically, now that I read through the list on wikipedia, the third eye is the only one that I don't experience. So now I'm interested in thinking about that one.

      Various 'beyond dreaming' experiences such as we've discussed here are for me connected to the partial opening of some of these centers. The dream experiences started at the same time I started experiencing those more. With retrospect it seems a little strange I never mentioned that here, but I guess it was because it happened gradually, without me paying much attention, and like I said I was never into that kind of 'spirituality'.

      Upon further reflection, I should slightly relax my assertion that the centers open by themselves without any help. I guess its natural for efforts or events to precipitate 'opening' when the time is close. But I still think that its not something to yearn for. 'Opening' them doesn't seem to me like an unambiguously good thing. And they don't 'close' again, at least not quickly and without some degree of psychological injury.

      I also think that 'opening' and 'closing' isn't a binary thing. They are never more than very partially opened or developed. If any of them were fully developed and open, nobody would be able to handle that. We have enough trouble with the power and sensitivity we have already.

      Regards.
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      I've read that each of the main chakras - the seven ranged up the centerline of the body - turn out to be dense centers of nerve ganglia, such as the now well-known 'heart brain" and "gut brain". So essentially they're sort of inline microprocessors on the nervous system linked to the brain. Also,it sounds like you guys are talking about something different when you say opening and closing them than what I hear about in relation to chakra meditation, or else I just didn't understand well enough (which is likely). From what I understand, you're supposed to open them at the beginning of meditation and close them when you're finishing up. Possibly that's just sort of a visualization technique and really opening and closing them is a very different thing.

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      mispost. nevermind
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      "Some Alan Watts quote."

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      Well, the way it's presented there, it's the Jungian Individuation process, with a slightly different emphasis. Each chakra deals with eating a different part of your shadow. I remember Jung said it's dangerous for Westerners to practice Yoga (and by Yoga he was referring to Kundalini - the unfurling of the energy snake up the spine along the path of the chakras). I'm not sure why he said that, but I suspect it's because westerners weren't brought up in a deeply spiritual environment and taught this stuff from birth. Also I've heard that in yogic practices they only give half the information to students, and half of it remains hidden until they become initiates and get in deeper.

      EDIT - oh, he might also have meant that the complete ego death which is the goal of pure Yoga/Buddhism is not healthy for westerners. I seem to recall he said something along that line, and it makes sense to me. In fact it always seemed to me that that absolute negation is something that's only really for monks and acolytes, not for normal people. I believe the things Jesus intended only for his own apostles were not the same as his advice to normal people who had to live in the worldly world so to speak, and Jesus had a good dose of Buddhism/Yoga in his background. I notice the ancient philosophers also lived like monks, with no possessions aside from a threadbare robe of homespun and a bowl, and Diogenes the Cynic even gave away his bowl when he saw a child drinking water from a stream in his cupped hand. And of course they didn't tell ordinary citizens to throw away all their possessions - that's only for if you wanted to become a philosopher yourself. Sorry I'm all over the place here - the thoughts are coalescing little by little and this is where they're going.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-17-2017 at 06:36 PM.
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      I think that all the 'energy centers' are interrelated, and how a person would experience or describe them could be related to degrees of development connected to the different ones. I think the 'physical' aspect that a person feels or works with during meditation is superficial by itself, and the more important aspect is more emotional or moral. In that sense I agree that they are metaphors, if by metaphor one is trying to refer more to the qualities that aren't felt or located in the body.

      I also think that there aren't 7 completely distinct locations or principles, to some degree it is a continuum. Its sort of like how your head can be thought of as being distinct from your neck, but there isn't a perfect line that separates the two.

      By 'open' I mean being in contact or communication with nature through that center. By 'nature' I mean something like the mechanisms of karma, which are like the higher worlds or finer states of matter of New Agers. But my experience of that is of course strongly limited by my own lack of development.

      In yoga, there is the half of the information that is shared with students, then the 'hidden' part is hidden largely to preserve the dependency between guru and disciple, and to obscure the fact that the yogis don't entirely know what they are talking about. Some westerners imagine that older, foreign religions are pure at the core, and not deeply corrupt like our own cults such as Christian Science or Scientology. But get close enough to anything, with a sincere desire to understand the truth about it, and it starts to look different than it did from afar.
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      Holy smokes... it's alligned! hahaha.:

      In my post above, what I had originally posted was the exact avatar video you posted. But I hadn't seen it in years, and didn't have time to rewatch. So I decided I shouldn't risk wasting anybody's time in case I remembered the video different than it actually was.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 11-17-2017 at 09:35 PM.
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      "Some Alan Watts quote."

      -Alan Watts

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      Interesting video.I saw Avatar as a kid but I didnít really pay much attention to the chakra parts. I like the lessons from it though. I find myself trying to be at peace with myself, nature , people and the universe around me as well. Of course at times itís not easy and you sort of wanna flip out but weíre living for a reason and I want to go the path that helps me understand why the things are the way they are and the path of peace. Heh, itís almost like how Buddha...or I forgot his name, but he was a king/emperor and decided to go on a meditative state or journey to find out why things were the way they are. Also, the video does remind me of the stuff you mentioned about Jung before too. I find it cool cause it helps show that weíre not alone in dealing with the complex situations that we come across and that we can build on each otherís wisdom as well.
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      Quote Originally Posted by LighrkVader View Post
      Holy smokes... it's alligned! hahaha.:

      In my post above, what I had originally posted was the exact avatar video you posted. But I hadn't seen it in years, and didn't have time to rewatch. So I decided I shouldn't risk wasting anybody's time in case I remembered the video different than it actually was.
      I reposted it so my reply would make sense I actually thinks it's quite well done, but I don't know how accurate it is. Though I am not craving onion and banana juice!

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      Double post. Why does this happen?
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 11-18-2017 at 09:44 PM.
      "Some Alan Watts quote."

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      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      I reposted it so my reply would make sense I actually thinks it's quite well done, but I don't know how accurate it is. Though I am not craving onion and banana juice!
      Not as fun, but I guess there has to be a natural explanation every once in a while... haha.

      As for the accuracy, I don't know much about chakras but I think it's pretty good though of course there are bound to be oversimplifications in a crash course on this kind of topic. The writers were very into and inspired by these topics. And they paid a lot of attention to detail and getting things right I think.. A fun example I remember is that there are specific ways of holding your hands when working on each chakras. These are all shown in the meditation scenes in the clip

      Quote Originally Posted by DawnEye11 View Post
      Interesting video.I saw Avatar as a kid but I didn’t really pay much attention to the chakra parts. I like the lessons from it though. I find myself trying to be at peace with myself, nature , people and the universe around me as well. Of course at times it’s not easy and you sort of wanna flip out but we’re living for a reason and I want to go the path that helps me understand why the things are the way they are and the path of peace. Heh, it’s almost like how Buddha...or I forgot his name, but he was a king/emperor and decided to go on a meditative state or journey to find out why things were the way they are. Also, the video does remind me of the stuff you mentioned about Jung before too. I find it cool cause it helps show that we’re not alone in dealing with the complex situations that we come across and that we can build on each other’s wisdom as well.
      I was about 20 when I saw avatar the first time. And I have seen it two more times since then I am a sucker for stories with good magic systems. Avatar, HunterXHunter, Mistborn...

      For the the rest of what you wrote.. It made me thing about a song. We are what we are, and thats as natural as it gets. Nature doesn't always seem peaceful. Every part of it flips out and goes crazy. But it's ok, because if you zoom out it's all peaceful harmony from a distance. I can't say it better than Bette Midler did in her impressively cheezy 80's pop ballad "from a distance". I'm not gonna force you to listen to that one. But here is a beautiful norwegian folk cover I wish I could force you to listen to(damn near makes me cry). I added the Enligsh Lyrics though I guess hearing it without understanding the words is a very good example of what Bette Midler ment by watching from a distance.
      ( I have made plans to sneak my way into her concert in a couple of weeks)




      From a distance the world looks blue and green,
      And the snow-capped mountains white.
      From a distance the ocean meets the stream,
      And the eagle takes to flight.

      From a distance, there is harmony,
      And it echoes through the land.
      It's the voice of hope, it's the voice of peace,
      It's the voice of every man.

      From a distance we all have enough,
      And no one is in need.
      And there are no guns, no bombs, and no disease,
      No hungry mouths to feed.

      From a distance we are instruments
      Marching in a common band.
      Playing songs of hope, playing songs of peace.
      They're the songs of every man.
      God is watching us. God is watching us.
      God is watching us from a distance.

      From a distance you look like my friend,
      Even though we are at war.
      From a distance I just cannot comprehend
      What all this fighting is for.

      From a distance there is harmony,
      And it echoes through the land.
      And it's the hope of hopes, it's the love of loves,
      It's the heart of every man.

      It's the hope of hopes, it's the love of loves.
      This is the song of every man.
      And God is watching us, God is watching us,
      God is watching us from a distance.
      Oh, God is watching us, God is watching.
      God is watching us from a distance.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 11-18-2017 at 11:22 PM.
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    11. #11
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      Wow, nice~ I saw avatar reruns but I never ended up rewatching the whole thing. I like how organized it is too. Especially Hunter X Hunter. I wanted to watch it again but knowing what happens next sometimes ruins the excitement for me.^w^ Awww,That does sound similar to what I was saying. The song sounds so beautiful too~ It kind of sounds like something Celine Dion would make.

      Oh and the double post problem is supposed be fixed but I do notice at times it doesn’t delete after a few mins. Idk why.
      Last edited by DawnEye11; 11-19-2017 at 01:41 PM.
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      Interesting how this thread left the Third Eye behind pretty quickly...

      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      This thread is in response to Sageous and his statement that the third eye is a metaphor.
      I don't know; it seems this is a thread about chakras, about which I said absolutely nothing oin that other thread. To me, the Third Eye and chakras are very different things, with the former being about awareness, and the latter being about energy. Also, again to me, chakra meditation could very well have a foundation in "real things," like exciting specific nerve ganglia, for all the reasons you guys said. So chakras may indeed have a non-metaphoric place in our experience (in addition to a metaphoric one, of course).

      In my defense, my caveat on that other thread was not about the mysticism that formed the foundation of Third Eye perspectives; as you know, Shadowofwind, I'm all for mysticism and magical thinking (most of what I've published to date is solidly embedded in magical realism), but not to the point of delusion. If you're going to be mystical, at least focus your attention on the true foundations of a subject, and not the crap that is generated so vigorously on the internet by people who have no idea what they are talking about... aside from some theosophical nonsense created a century ago, most of the stuff about there being an actual third eye locked in our foreheads is pretty recent, and based on some amazingly sparse interpretations of the philosophy backing it mixed with some bizarre enlistment of the pineal gland into the mix -- all of which sounds quite sensible in our current cultural environment of "anything goes" magical thinking.

      I guess my point was that there is a great amount of value in opening your Third Eye, but only if that opening is an elevation of perspective described with the third eye metaphor, and not an actual opening or activation of a physical organ in our foreheads, and to pursue the latter instead of the former will lead at least to disappointment, and certainly to the practitioner completely missing the true value of actually opening that metaphoric Third Eye.

      Finally, on the other thread, Vagaltone made my point for me far better than I did, so I feel obliged to post his thoughts here:

      Quote Originally Posted by VagalTone View Post
      Yep, Sageous is correct. I believe you can understand it Yaya.

      The third eye is the perspective of wisdom and intuition, something that sees beyond the veils of beliefs, concepts and indoctrination
      It is seeing and being from a more selfless perspective, a new level of mind or consciousness (like being in flow for instance)
      This level of mind allows you to see with your eyes, heart and mind - and it can even seem like you are not watching from your physical eyes ( maybe that's why it is called a third eye, but some people referred to it as the single eye too and i prefer this one)

      It is not a real eye, but is commonly represent on a physical level for some (perhaps deluded) reason

      I am sure you can finds lot of mature spiritual articles corroborating this opinion (besides the deluded and closeminded ones contradicting it)

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      The 'third eye' that yaya started the other thread about is one of the chakras. You said that the 'third eye' is actually a metaphor, or 'a perspective of wisdom and intuition'. I'm saying that it is in fact also a chakra. By clarifying that to you 'the third eye and chakras are very different things', you seem to be saying that you're interested in a different, more important subject, also called the third eye. I'm in agreement with you that your other subject is more interesting than the chakra. However, I'm also aware that the chakras have a reality that isn't 'deluded' or 'closeminded'. If you want to discuss or learn more about that, this is what this thread is for. The third eye chakra is interesting to me now, since, as I indicated, its the only one of the seven that I have no awareness of, so maybe I can become more aware of it by exploring in that direction. One way to do that might be exploring the ways in which the third eye chakra is related to the third eye 'perspective of wisdom and intuition' that you know something about. That's a bridge from the chakra to your deeper, more valued subject, as well as a potential way for you to learn more about something that you're not directly aware of presently.

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      Sorry about the derailing. Though it's not as bad as it seems. I realize now that I should have specified it, but the association that led me to post that song came largely from the same view on the third eye that VagalTone explained.

      The third eye watches from a distance with the perspective of wisdom and intuition, something that sees beyond the veils of beliefs, concepts and indoctrination... (I don't see it as being closed in some and open in others though.. )

      Or something along those lines is how I interprate the song anyway. But how each person would describe something like the "third eye's view"(bleh..) depends entirely on their relationship to different concepts, indoctrinations, beliefs etc. So we say it can't be put into words and instead use the sound of a gong to describe it... or the smell of a fart... or a mural in a mosque... or a song in a language you don't understand...

      This is why the best thing to bring back home from your spritual journey is the mastery of an artform. If you want to make someone "see with their third eye", don't try and tell them about it, share your soul with them through art. (Note that mastering the art of words is an option, in which case talking about it makes sense)
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 11-20-2017 at 12:12 AM.
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      LightrkVader,

      My last post was entirely in response to Sageous, in case that wasn't clear.

      As I see it, different people all bring different things to the table. If your thing is art, I think that's great. I disagree though that mastery of an artform is in general the "best thing" to bring back home from a spiritual journey. It may be the best thing for you. If we respect that other people have different strengths or callings, then we can learn some and change some because of each other. But if we start thinking that only our way is the only way that has much value, then we get bogged down once we've taken that as far as it can go by itself. One sees this with forum discussions, where people just talk past each other, and no longer grow through that medium at all.

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      Double post, and I know I only clicked once.

      Edit: And now its gone again.

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      Man how do I...

      Consider the post with the song and my previous one a failed attempt at a quick shoutout to the power of art as a means of sharing the metaphorical "third eye view" that kept being brought up. That was the intention... but since I am no master of words I tricked myself into a frustrating position. By attempting to clear up what I meant and bring the thread I derailed back to chakras, I instead end up keeping it on the very topic I don't see any value in me talking about.

      I've left a lot of room open for misunderstanding. It was lazy. And so I can see why you would underestimate me.

      I don't always clarify the humility of my statements because it is completely obvious to me that I don't know shit. So I forget that I can come off as a blowhard, especially when I try to explain something complex in a few sentences. But yeah... I absolutely try to avoid pride in understandings. Spiritual pride leads to delusion, limits, trouble and poor decisions.............. imo....

      I would most off all like to return to chakras, because mastery of an art/discipline it is needed to effectively share with others the thing that we metaphorically call "third eye view" in this thread. It's not something we can understand.

      Before I saw your last comment I realized that I had forgotten to state my relationship to the chakra part and added an edit to my previous comment. But I'll put it down here in stead:

      Edit: Based on personal experience I am absolutely down with the the third eye not only being a metaphor but also a center of relevance in meditation. I have had very special experiences, but I know quite very little because so far it has not been my style to spend much time practicing and studying the more conceptual, symbolic and dissective sides of spirituality. I like it simple. So as far as I'm concerned the brain is a symbol.

      Not saying my way is the right way. It's just what I like right now. And I am sure there are treasures to be found for those who go the other way


      Actual Edit: for double posting. I suspect the trick is to leave both comments alone, wait for a while and refresh the page. Seems like the site removes identical comments. But if you edit one of them both stay.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 11-20-2017 at 02:54 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      The 'third eye' that yaya started the other thread about is one of the chakras. You said that the 'third eye' is actually a metaphor, or 'a perspective of wisdom and intuition'. I'm saying that it is in fact also a chakra. By clarifying that to you 'the third eye and chakras are very different things', you seem to be saying that you're interested in a different, more important subject, also called the third eye. I'm in agreement with you that your other subject is more interesting than the chakra. However, I'm also aware that the chakras have a reality that isn't 'deluded' or 'closeminded'. If you want to discuss or learn more about that, this is what this thread is for. The third eye chakra is interesting to me now, since, as I indicated, its the only one of the seven that I have no awareness of, so maybe I can become more aware of it by exploring in that direction. One way to do that might be exploring the ways in which the third eye chakra is related to the third eye 'perspective of wisdom and intuition' that you know something about. That's a bridge from the chakra to your deeper, more valued subject, as well as a potential way for you to learn more about something that you're not directly aware of presently.
      That was a solid summary of my thoughts and, hopefully not unfortunately, the parting of our ways on this subject. But still:

      I don't remember if there is a name for it, but a forehead chakra (I think there's also a top of the head chakra; not sure if that matters here) that perhaps yields a gateway to a third eye perspective is indeed a fascinating idea. I don't see opening such a a chakra as a shortcut to opening a Third Eye in terms of perspective, experience, presence in the moment/world, and sense of Self, but I can see it as a valid tool in the process, once your head is in a place to process such a process (now there's a sentence I'll never get back). So, though chakras and Third Eye to me are very different subjects, perhaps there is a connection after all!

      In defense of what I was saying earlier, though, you might ask yourself why a third eye chakra is the only one of the seven that of which you have no awareness; given your knowledge of such things, this ignorance could carry some significance in itself: you may have been unaware of a third eye chakra because such a chakra fails conceptually to fit in with the general nature of chakras (a nature, in my opinion, centered in energy and not in awareness)... your experience with chakras might be correct, with a third eye chakra being an appendix of sorts that never was included in the original lexicon of chakras.

      All this said, I really have no problem with considering a third eye chakra as a tool for (eventually, in concert with many other things) opening a Third Eye perspective. So I'll definitely follow (and contribute, if possible) this thread in the hope that such a correlation is described or discovered.
      Last edited by Sageous; 11-20-2017 at 05:02 AM.
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      Lighrk, I don't think it was a failed attempt. We were taking the topic to a somewhat different direction I guess, sorry about that, but it was connected to the main topic.
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      So here's something of my experience of chakras, using the names from the picture on the wikipedia page, which I haven't read. I expect this to be all rather subjective and thin on intellectual substance, since I'm just thinking about what I feel, and only have a few minutes to reflect.

      1. Crown: If I think about this one,the feeling in the back of my head and spine sort of lines up and flows up and down. There's also a feeling of levity, as if by willing it I could float, though I am not actually floating. What principles this is related to or what function it has I don't know off hand.

      2. 3rd Eye: I feel nothing here, maybe because there are no 'touch' kind of nerves in that area, so I can't feel it like the others. I'll come back to this.

      3. Throat: Related to expression or communication. This is an important one for me, maybe a problem for me. If I don't attempt to express my thought, things don't really flow in relation to my intellectual muse, and I don't really feel alive, or connected to my identity. How that is connected to my throat I don't know, but feeling is heightened at that location when I think about this, and my sense of who I am becomes stronger.

      4. Heart: I guess everyone feels this one, and what its related to. In a sense its the center of a person, and the most important part of a person.

      5. Solar: This one I feel, but I don't know how to describe what it means. For me it has to do with relationships with others, but not expression or communication. Its like a feminine counterpart of the heart, more receptive and closer to nature.

      5 1/2. I would have expected there to be another chakra about halfway between the naval and the sex organs, but there isn't one in the picture. This unnamed chakra has to do with desire, somewhat at the level of instinct. If there was any 'opening' of chakras in me, this might have been the first one. So I'm already off the rails in relation to chakras, I have '7' but they're not in the right places.

      6. Sacral: This would have to do with physical expression of desire in relation to the earth. All of the other chakras are about that also, in the sense that they're 'physical' or in the body, but this is symbolically the center as far as physical interaction goes. Its as if the whole body is a metaphor for many layers of being or expressing, and a person can get intuitions about different subjects related to identity in part by thinking about corresponding parts of the body.

      7. Root: This seems to be like the sacral one, but has more to do with feeling or receptivity and less to do with expression of desire. In that sense its relation to the sacral center is analogous to the relation of the solar center to the heart. I feel the earth pull on me through this center, as if the earth wants stuff to happen. This is very much like how creation pulls on our spirits and makes karma, it is as if I can feel that happening. In that sense its like the opposite end of the crown chakra, which is what connects me to heaven. But we're also connected to both heaven and earth through all of these principles and centers, in somewhat different ways. I think without the root chakra I wouldn't be able to feel any of the others.

      One thing I feel about myself, rightly or wrongly, is like an opening between myself and an underworld. Its as if I'm a deep well, and I can feel or express what the spirits in that subterranean world would express. I guess everyone is like this, but that most people wouldn't experience it in quite this way. All of these 'energy centers' are like that, they connect me to nature in various ways, but also to an unseen spiritual world.

      So going back to the 'third eye' again, this is different from the rest because there's no feeling there. I think with feeling, but metaphorically that feeling is all connected with other parts of the body, and I don't seem to feel at that level. I can feel the weight of my personality on my face, and in a different way on my chest. But its as if there is no feeling in the principle of thought, even though feeling is the principal way I think.

      Maybe what I'm getting at is there's feeling in thought, but there's no sensation in that feeling. Its like its there but there's nothing lighting it up. Everything else is on the outside, or connects me to something else.

      OK, if I make associations with this 'third eye' area, fear is something I feel that's connected to that and not to any of the others. Violence is connected to many of the others in different ways, but fear would be at this other level, or the kind of fear I experience anyway. This area would also be connected to my experience of my 'muse', which is like fate or my angel of destiny. I guess to the extent that there's a design or a plan and I'm aware of it, that would be connected most directly to this area. My awareness of evil would be closest to this area. There's a lot that's screwed up about all the other areas, but the rest of it is more like a collection of injuries or an animal condition. Anger for example seems to be more downstream from the evil, not at the root of it.

      That was all quite incoherent, but I guess I'll stop there.

      Sorry I didn't answer you LighrkVader, I'll get back to you, these other thoughts were already in the queue and I haven't had time to process what you said. This next week is quite busy for me, but I'll get back to it later.
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    21. #21
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      LighrkVader - man, how I stumble over that name!! I had no clue how to pronounce it, and without a name that can be pronounced a person on a forum like this is almost a non-entity. So I'm pronouncing it LurkVader. And the way I see it, we did take the thread on a slight detour, but that was before Sageous showed up, and that ran its course before he even found the thread, so when he did he was free to direct it in whatever way he wanted, as he has.

      shadowofwind - Thanks for providing that summary of your experiences of the chakras. Very similar to mine but I have trouble with the heart, solar plexus and sacral chakras - meaning as you say about the third eye, that I don't really get any (or much) sensation there. I find I can get sensation in the heart chakra but usually I need to provide some kind of external stimulation or impetus. For instance, the first time I did feel something there was because suddenly birds started singing just outside my window and it kick-started the sensation in the heart area. I also find that sometimes I'm concentrating too much on the physical heart itself rather than the energy center on the centerline of the body, and if I try too hard - I suppose trying to 'force it' - I can instead cause something like an adrenaline surge but in the heart. Some kind of hormone or physical reaction that is unpleasant and unwanted. Then I remind myself it's not the physical heart I'm supposed to be concentrating on. Sometimes now I can feel what I think I'm supposed to be feeling, which is a very pleasant sort of vibration or a spreading warmth - both I suppose, from the center of the chest. I also have found I can jump-start it by thinking about things I'm grateful for or that I love. Makes sense.

      Some time ago I also found a way to stimulate the solar plexus chakra, but just now I don't remember how I did it. It was in relation to a book I was reading - I'd need to go back and look at the book again or maybe I wrote about it in my journal and could find it. In fact I'm sure I did - it's the finding part that could be a problem. That was several volumes back.

      For me the third eye is very strong - I immediately get a very powerful sensation there, like a sort of pressure or tightness or something, and a sense of expansion form inside the brain or the mind. And it feels like something is definitely happening there. Although, similar to my doing something to the actual physical heart rather than the chakra, I sometimes find I'm actually crossing my real eyes. I sometimes have to deliberately stop myself doing that.

      I'm interested in what you said in your first response to me about a moral effort to open the chakras. I suspect the meaning of that is what the video was about - facing your fears, your guilt, your fear of loss etc. And this is why I said it's just like Jungian Individuation. Of course Jung studied all the ancient religions and spiritual systems and tested what he thought might actually work on patients, and he ended up with a sort of core that runs through all spiritual systems and religions with the dogmas and external stuff stripped away. In order to individuate, the process is to face your fears and all those other things I mentioned. You also pay attention to your dreams and analyze them, and write about the thoughts you experience, especially those that seem important or that might help to reveal fears or problems in your life that need attention.

      This also aligns with Stoicism, which I've been practicing for several years now. Not really a spiritual system, but it shares a lot in common with Buddhism and several other Eastern spiritual systems. I've realized recently that a lot of ancient wisdom is very similar form one area to another, though some of it is considered spiritual and some practical or philosophical, such as Stoicism. Until seeing the Avatar video that LighrkVader posted, I had never heard of opening the chakras through any kind of moral struggle, and didn't realize the similarities with both Stoicism and Jungian individuation, but now it's clear to me.

      Just a very brief explanation of the tents of Stoicism:
      Basically you separate the world into 2 categories - things you can control and things you can't. Essentially the category of things you can control comes down to your own thoughts, your attention, and your reactions to circumstances, meaning your emotions. You can't directly control your emotions, but you can direct which ones you;ll experience and to what degree by what you choose to focus on. The classic example always given is if you're an adolescent boy and planned to play baseball on Thursday, but it rains. You can either focus on the loss and experience some mix of anger, despair, and other negative emotions that serve no purpose, or you can instead say "Well, it's raining, can't play ball today - instead this gives me time to catch up on my reading" or something else positive and productive. Basically the entire Stoic concept is encapsulated in the Serenity Prayer, which also is the mantra of Alcoholics Anonymous (recovering alcoholics, among many other people, need something like Stoicism): "Lord grant me the courage to change what I can, the serenity to accept what I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference".

      EDIT - forgot to mention a couple quick items.

      I've seen charts that do place the sacral chakra where you said - midway between the belly button and the sex organs. Also, one aspect of the solar plexus chakra is it houses the Will - aka determination or strength of character.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-20-2017 at 02:19 PM.
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      LighrkVader,

      I think your comment about art was fine. My comment was based on a lot of past experience with people who spend all of their time dismissing other people's offerings. But that has nothing directly related to you, and there's no nice balance between overly sweeping language and overly qualified language, it obstructs communication no matter where you draw the line.

      One thing that interests me about art is that rare individuals have talent that far, far exceeds what appears plausible in terms of natural selection. It as if its a vestige of a more magical world than ours. I think that about telepathy also, its so very weak in our world, but not non-existent, which makes me think it must be a lot stronger somewhere.

      I agree with you that in a better world all people would be artists, its unnatural the way most of us are merely consumers of art. Of course, there is art in everything we do, but the art of someone like Bach is at a different level.

      Thinking about it more, the 'third eye' doesn't seem to me to be entirely different from what we call 'the mind'. But I guess the description by Darkmatters is fairly distinct from that.

      In any case, for myself I'm still of the opinion that intentionally 'opening' any of this through meditation isn't a good idea. Its like intentionally diving into a maelstrom. We want to live, and its true that more 'open' generally feels more 'alive'. But as with a lot of other things, more compelling experiences often change a person in a way that makes deeper experiences more difficult. And to use a metaphor from Sageous, having a really shiny bucket doesn't show you much about what is in the bucket.

    23. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      Thinking about it more, the 'third eye' doesn't seem to me to be entirely different from what we call 'the mind'. But I guess the description by Darkmatters is fairly distinct from that.
      I didn't really give a description of the third eye, just explained what it feels like to me when I try to open it in meditation. As I understand the third eye is supposed to be about telepathy, intuition and spiritual vision or spiritual connectedness. Something like that anyway.

      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      In any case, for myself I'm still of the opinion that intentionally 'opening' any of this through meditation isn't a good idea. Its like intentionally diving into a maelstrom. We want to live, and its true that more 'open' generally feels more 'alive'. But as with a lot of other things, more compelling experiences often change a person in a way that makes deeper experiences more difficult. And to use a metaphor from Sageous, having a really shiny bucket doesn't show you much about what is in the bucket.
      Ok, that does make sense. I suppose chakra meditation, which I think I've heard also called chakra cleansing or purifying (unless I'm mistaking it for something else?) is sort of like washing and waxing your car, when it's much more important to get under the hood and repair what's broken and keep things well tuned. At least that goes with what Sageous said about polishing the bucket. I now see you said it's more like diving into a maelstrom. Hmm, that's a little different from what I thought you meant. I can see I don't understand what we're really talking about very well yet. From Sageous' metaphor it sounded like chakra meditation is sort of superfluous and silly, but yours makes it sound dangerous and like something a person shouldn't do unprepared. Since reading this yesterday I've been thinking about Sageous' metaphor. Now I'm confused again.

      But it doesn't really have a lot of relevance to me personally - it's been a while since I've done any chakra meditation. I used to do it largely for something to concentrate on while meditating because otherwise I would get sleepy after a short while. Mostly though I'm curious about what you said about a moral effort. I was hoping you would either confirm or deny what I guessed earlier - that you were referring to the things presented in the video posted by LighrkVader (and then reposted by me). Meaning specifically that to develop the chakras (whatever it is they represent) you need to develop your own courage, honesty, etc. But I'm beginning to feel pretty confident I was right - otherwise I suppose you would have said something. Also it does fit, considering what I've been learning lately - that most if not all of the spiritual teachings and religions at their core are all revealing the same truths, and they're also the ones re-discovered by Carl Jung and in some sense presented also in other psychologies (though it's mostly just Jung who deals with the Soul, creativity, introversion, and the inner world - much of the rest of psychology seems to be very reductive and materialistic).

      I realized recently as well that psychotherapists in some sense do exactly what religious teachers and gurus etc all do - they tend to give exasperatingly vague responses that essentially are saying the questioner needs to find the answers within themselves, and the gurus are only there to help guide loosely. For the most part anyway, but occasionally they can help with something more concrete. One big difference I think though is that from ancient times the advice was concerned with developing coherent and consistent character virtues - honesty, integrity, courage, kindness etc, while modern therapy (much of it) is more materialist and less about developing the whole self through moral practices. Ok, to be more fair, I think much of modern therapy does involve moral development.

      I need to go back and watch the video again - make a list of the various chakras and what they represent, or what virtues need to be developed in order to open them. It's very similar to what Jung said about basically developing the character virtues and trying to dissolve (or solve) your character flaws (my own wording, but I think it encapsulates his concept). But the chakra versions seem to be broken down into individual virtues, which is interesting. I think my answers are largely contained in the video - and possibly I could learn more by exercising some Google-fu. Shadowofwind, if you have any more to say on the subject I would be very grateful.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-22-2017 at 06:49 PM.

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      I'll try and get back to this thread tomorrow. Right now I am working my ass off trying to get ready for my presentation on the biological third eye (parietal eye and pineal gland) tomorrow morning. Wish me luck!
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      Good Luck!!

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