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    Thread: Transcendent Dreams Discussion

    1. #26
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      Sageous: Awesome reply! I was waiting for you to chime in. Nice one.

      Transcendental dreams are very simple events: you are just experiencing, in dreams, content that exists beyond your ability to understand them, and possibly even to remember them as they truly happened.
      Well now don't I feel silly. I assumed transcendental dreams to be events of transcending the physical. Which btw, ironically, is even simpler than what you just explained there. xD
      My type of transcendence, would you count it as a "transcendental dream" when I have my non-lucid transcendence moments?


      RealityShifter: Can you explain in further detail, your own steps?

      And yeah I do this with eyes open or shut.

    2. #27
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      the thing that makes a dream transcendental is "just" its presentation of stuff that lie beyond the walls of our human experience. It really is that simple.
      Actually that kinda answers my question. My thing does count. But it only counts for a tiny tiny portion of what they are. xD
      My bad!

    3. #28
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      Double post -.-


      EDIT: I've sure made a mess here, eh. I think this thread should be sent into the fiery depths of hell.

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      Quote Originally Posted by slash112 View Post
      Sageous: Awesome reply! I was waiting for you to chime in. Nice one.



      Well now don't I feel silly. I assumed transcendental dreams to be events of transcending the physical. Which btw, ironically, is even simpler than what you just explained there. xD
      My type of transcendence, would you count it as a "transcendental dream" when I have my non-lucid transcendence moments?


      RealityShifter: Can you explain in further detail, your own steps?

      And yeah I do this with eyes open or shut.
      At the time when I still did not know the names "LD", "WILD", "DILD", "MILD", "VILD". Through a lot of experimenting I created my own steps for inducing LD. The method(steps) I created are similar to Darkmatters steps for inducing this ultra awareness. Only one more step after "The Void" you mentioned was mine WILD, but I didn't stay too much at "The Void", because my goal was different.
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    5. #30
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      double post ^^ that is a nice glitch ~_~
      Last edited by RealityShifter; 03-05-2018 at 11:52 PM.

    6. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by slash112 View Post
      Ahah yeah, I do apologize, this thread is an explosion of words filled with all sorts of misleading connotations. I'm gonna do my best to clear up your misunderstandings, because I've basically just created a mess in your mind. :L My bad



      You're definitely thinking along the right lines here.



      Lemme just give you a little perspective-shift on the idea of "dropping".
      To me, dropping should be an act of simply letting go of the tight grasp. Usually we go around tightly grasping everything, clinging onto things for dear life. Like, as if something terrible will happen if we let go.
      This is something we do without realizing it. It happens mostly through the identification with things. To give you an example, when you identify with pain, it fuckin sucks! Stop identifying with it or let go of your grasp, then, well it's simply pain, it's neither good nor bad.

      You can drop *everything* and still completely function as a human being. Difference is, you will feel light as a feather, and free. Personally I think dropping everything is a fantastic little challenge to prove to yourself what happens when you do it.




      Yeah is-ness is something easily accessible.
      Again, don't look too much into the order I put those layers of self earlier.




      Perception (or, better to say "the perceiver") is indeed the void.
      The perceiver is the observer. Two words for the same thing.


      Lemme explain why the observer/the perceiver/the witness/pure awareness/true self is the void.

      Look at the perceiver. In any possible way you can, look at this thing which is beyond words.
      Does it have any qualities? Does it have a colour? Does it have form or a shape?
      I have more to say, but I need you to answer that question first. What qualities can you see in the perceiver?
      It's fine. I wanna see what your seeing though so I'm trying. I don't doubt that i can understand but it might get annoying if i ask too much questions.

      In what way do you mean identifying with pain? Like when people feel a certain type of emotional pain and identify with it? I get that. You do have to move on in order to not let it tear you down.

      Also, I'm getting a thought for how pain could be good and bad for certain situations. Like when it tells you something is wrong with you physically and when it stops you from being able to carry out your daily activities. But than again your looking at pain as just what happens in this world and that we should accept it right?

      I see that it makes you feel light as a feather. But dropping everything makes me feel like I would be nothing. Just existing. I dont want to just exist. I want to be complex yet balanced.

      Earliar i think i asked if it what was allowing you to perceive was the perciever. Not the perciever as in the observer or you. When you said i got it, i thought that was it but i suppose it was another missunderstanding.

      If I'm looking at the perciever in the right way I would say that the perciever, depending on who the perciever is, gains color, form, shape, qualities and can choose certain things. However, they can choose to cut off certain things as well.
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    7. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by slash112 View Post
      My type of transcendence, would you count it as a "transcendental dream" when I have my non-lucid transcendence moments?
      Yup... more important is that you can sense and remember those non-lucid transcendental moments... That truly speaks to a mature mind with a strong sense of self-awareness... very cool!

      I don't think I mentioned it above, but I have occasionally harbored the feeling that we could very well all be having transcendent NLD's regularly; we just can't remember that we had them. That you can remember even moments of such dreams is very impressive!

      On a technical note:
      Quote Originally Posted by slash112 View Post
      Double post -.-
      I think the (new) gods of DV have a routine in place that gets rid of the double posts after they happen, so there's no need to post again to apologize for the double post.
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    8. #33
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      Actually, if you edit the double post it stays, otherwise it will be deleted by itself. And I may as well talk about some interesting dream "events" that both happened and were induced a long time ago that got me even more interested in the dreaming world.
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    9. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      You might think in terms of the self that you're trying to shed in all this is the self you've constructed throughout your life to represent you, in a dualistic manner (meaning a "you" separate from the world). Once that self is shed, then what is left is the actual "You" that has to date been hidden beneath all layers of crap you've generated to create and sustain the imperfect construct that you think right now is "You."

      But do you know what? I'm not sure that any of that matters here!

      Though this conversation is very interesting and mildly humbling, I think. DawnEye, that a couple of very knowledgeable guys may have dragged you a bit too far into the philosophical weeds over a subject that, to me at least, is a remarkably simple one.

      Transcendental dreams, to me, are no more than dreams whose content (be it spiritual, emotional, or just imagery) ranges beyond the experience and knowledge of the dreamer. In other words, transcendental dreams take us to a place that we literally cannot understand with the tools we currently have. So, all voids, perspectives, self/Self talk, etc., aside, the thing that makes a dream transcendental is "just" its presentation of stuff that lie beyond the walls of our human experience. It really is that simple.

      Now, all this stuff that Slash and Darkmatters is certainly valuable, and, should you be able to absorb it all in a way that makes your psyche more receptive to things that cannot be defined or understood, which BTW could take years or even a lifetime (so don't be too upset if it's not all making sense just now), things that cannot be defined or understood will still happen to your enlightened perspective. I like to think that there is a whole universe of experience and knowledge still waiting for us, so even if we transcend our current selves, there will be dreams that those selves will not be able to "bring back" in a way that makes any sense. Oh fer God's sake, now I'm doing it... anyway:

      Look at it this way: Transcendence happens all the time in waking life: A musician might find a new sound that never existed before (think Jimi Hendrix), an artist might change the very nature of painting (think Picasso), a theorist might assemble an equation that changes everything (think Einstein), an inventor might find a new thing that changes the human condition (think, perhaps, of that first primitive man who tasted a bit of cooked meat). Transcendence happens in lesser ways as well, every day, but the difference in waking life is that both the person doing the transcendental discovery and the people she shares it with can see the results of the transcendence: Jimi plays a guitar, Picasso shows his painting, the nuclear age (not to mention the age of relativism in social interaction) quantify Einstein's theories, and most of us like a good cooked steak. In other words, there is a physical object or concept that can be referred to after the transcendent event, and its existence allows us to form the necessary metaphors and definitions required to understand -- to prove -- that the transcendence happened. In dreams, this is not the case, and that's what makes transcendental dreams difficult.

      When we have transcendental dreams, even when they're of the lucid variety, the only thing we have in waking life to measure them is our memory of them happening... And, when we're trying to remember an event that exceeds our current levels of knowledge and experience, that can be difficult to impossible. This is because our memory needs to attach something to the event to record it, be that a metaphor that makes sense or perhaps a similar memory; but if there is no something available, we are left the day after being mystified by what happened.

      That mystification doesn't last long, though. A dreamer seems to do a couple of things after a transcendental dream: One is to quickly discard it as nonsensical or nothing relevant to their own life (the most common reaction, in my opinion); another (should they feel there was some power in the dream) is that they will attach metaphors that are not correct, but do work for them, like drawing on religious or, these days, movie imagery that helps what they experienced make sense in terms they can understand; lastly, they cling to what they can of the experience, understand that they cannot describe it, but value what happened and look forward to next time... I'm a fan of the third choice, and also a fan of developing metaphors that can at least preserve these experiences in memory in an accurate manner.

      I am going on way too much here. I guess the tl;dr: here is this: Transcendental dreams are very simple events: you are just experiencing, in dreams, content that exists beyond your ability to understand them, and possibly even to remember them as they truly happened. The rest of the stuff here is real interesting, and helpful in its own right, but I thought it worth repeating nature of the thing we're supposed to be exploring here.

      Oh, and of course now I'm out of time and still haven't offered up any examples!
      Only a few things pop up in my head but what type of things do you mean seperate a person from the world? This is complicated. No one here really knows whether i'am the real me or not and now i feel like i have a load of crap on me. lol I'm just joking around but i do know that though i have refined who I'am to a great extent, I truly do have scraps of myself I choose not to shed.

      I tend to stay away from these philosophical disscusions on forums too. On the bright side, i understood what Darmatters was saying except for one thing and I'm starting to see how Slash is viewing it, despite the missunderstandings. Knowing that you understand it so easily is amazing to me. However, I'm being introduced to all these terms so it takes me time.

      I recall reading about that on your trancendal thread today. I feel that thats a good way to define them and it helps to identify them, which i wasn't really sure if i knew what it was before.

      Hehe Sageous, i was upset before because i believed i could understand to a certain extent what was said despite confusion or words but your right that i shouldn't be impatient. Thanks for your positive words. Also, its fine if you did it again.I think its good to know that even our trancended selves dont know everything.

      Thx for mentioning those examples. They were helpful in getting me to understand how humans transcend in WL Hmmm.....thinking about your last paragraph now, where you defined it, I'm wondering...what happens if the person comes to understand them? Also, what do people think about the purpose of them if we can't understand them. I have a feeling i read something about its purpose in your thread sageous but i will have to reread. I'm also hoping we can all discuss what we think about it here.

      Hehe its okay. Just write me a "I O U" i did read two examples in your thread though so i guess that could count. Still curious if you have anything recent though
      ^w^~ If not than its okay~ Your other examples were good.
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    10. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Transcendental dreams, to me, are no more than dreams whose content (be it spiritual, emotional, or just imagery) ranges beyond the experience and knowledge of the dreamer. In other words, transcendental dreams take us to a place that we literally cannot understand with the tools we currently have. So, all voids, perspectives, self/Self talk, etc., aside, the thing that makes a dream transcendental is "just" its presentation of stuff that lie beyond the walls of our human experience. It really is that simple.
      Now, this is really interesting - not the way I was thinking about it at all. But you’ve made me curious: you say a transcendent dream is one that goes beyond the dreamer’s understanding and experience—would that be the dreamer awake?

      I wonder because it’s fairly common for me to have dreams where I do or know things that seem normal at the time—like, sweeping the floor or driving to work normal—and it’s only when I wake up that I’m left wondering what the hell just happened. And it’s not that things get forgotten because of a lack of adequate words, usually. Whatever happened usually wasn’t beyond my comprehension at the time—but the comprehension itself was state-dependent. I’m left with the conclusion but not the proof, the vehicle of the metaphor but not the tenor—and I’m talking about metaphors that were baked into the original experience, so to speak, not something added after the fact. I’d be hesitant to call that transcendent for a number of reasons—but I’m interested to hear what you think.
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    11. #36
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      Going off topic again but I just read a Buddhist magazine called "no self or true self" after i googled it. The person who wrote it explained that their teacher didn't have to worry to live up to any role. So for him, having no sense of self, was his true self. Even who he was from the past means nothing to him I think, cause childhood apparently "did its little dance" than ended. It was, and than it ended.

      I can see how you could live like this. The only thing is I like to recall my past at times even though it ended. I don't really need a role, however, I do think of it at times to keep me motivated. Like the article mentioned some of these things do hinder a person.So if its a problem than you should break free from it. But if you can live with it, without it hindering you than why should you cut it off?

      In the end, even with no self or true self we still have a name. We still like things. Dislike things. Think of the past. Etc. We don't fully get rid of it all even though we eventually end up with nothing.

      These are just some thoughts that I got after reading the magazine. However, I think I should stop writing about this. I've thought about it long enough for now.
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    12. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by LeaningKarst View Post
      Now, this is really interesting - not the way I was thinking about it at all. But you’ve made me curious: you say a transcendent dream is one that goes beyond the dreamer’s understanding and experience—would that be the dreamer awake?

      I wonder because it’s fairly common for me to have dreams where I do or know things that seem normal at the time—like, sweeping the floor or driving to work normal—and it’s only when I wake up that I’m left wondering what the hell just happened. And it’s not that things get forgotten because of a lack of adequate words, usually. Whatever happened usually wasn’t beyond my comprehension at the time—but the comprehension itself was state-dependent. I’m left with the conclusion but not the proof, the vehicle of the metaphor but not the tenor—and I’m talking about metaphors that were baked into the original experience, so to speak, not something added after the fact. I’d be hesitant to call that transcendent for a number of reasons—but I’m interested to hear what you think.
      That is a very interesting question. I would say yes, the dreamer must be awake during the dream (aka, lucid) in order for the transcendental moment to occur.

      This is because, as you already noted, nothing is unusual or beyond comprehension during a NLD. You could be skateboarding on Saturn's rings with choirs of angels cheering you on and it will all seem perfectly normal, because "You," with the tools of memory and self-awareness in hand, are not present to confirm that this is not the way reality is supposed to look.

      So transcendental moments could happen in NLD's (I personally believe they may happen all the time, BTW, and we just don't remember them as such, for the reason I just noted), but we don't recognize them as such during the dream. Instead, we remember them later and decide that they were something special... and yes, I would also say that we very often decide incorrectly, making all sorts of mystical magical attachments to a dream that was, well, just about skateboarding on a poorly conceived course. Now, the same problem exists -- where there is no metaphor, no filed memory, that can be used to properly describe the transcendent imagery -- but it is compounded by the fact that you are not "there" anymore, but are trying to remember where you were, and using memory as a tool for restoring the moment might just restore it incorrectly because, well, being a transcendent moment, your memory has no way of reproducing the imagery.

      Of course, we may have an exception to this rule right on this thread... Slash mentioned above that he has non-lucid transcendent moments, and I believe him. But he has also, I believe, deeply trained his mind to be perceptive of such things, so, being properly prepared, he may be able to enjoy transcendent moments without the presence of his waking-life self-awareness, and his memory has something to hold onto until he wakes up to review the dream. That to me is incredibly impressive, but also incredibly rare (kudos to Slash, BTW!).


      Quote Originally Posted by DawnEye11 View Post
      Only a few things pop up in my head but what type of things do you mean seperate a person from the world? This is complicated. No one here really knows whether i'am the real me or not and now i feel like i have a load of crap on me. lol I'm just joking around but i do know that though i have refined who I'am to a great extent, I truly do have scraps of myself I choose not to shed.
      I think the best way to approach all this is by seeing it as utterly uncomplicated, with the obvious answers being the correct ones (as they often are with this stuff, regardless of the complex paths people take to describe them).

      So yes, that self you are trying to let go of is a separate person from the world; that "separateness," or dual perspective, is the thing you need to shed in order to realize the presence of your true Self. Why? Simply because it gets in the way. Let's forget the pile of crap for a sec, and instead see that separateness as sort of a big wall that you've been building since childhood, with each brick being some unnecessary priority (i.e., appearance, persona's, possessions, judgements, fears, nostalgia, and much more). These bricks eventually become stacked so high that you lose track of the individual who first started the stacking, and see only the bricks. By the same process you've come to call the wall your true self, with your true Self -- and its presence in reality -- lost behind the bricks. And so, that constructed self becomes an outside observer of the world, always associ-- OMG, now I'm spraying a word-firehose! Here, try this out:

      We are built, biologically, to be brains sitting inside a skull, dependent on our senses to bring us the outside world. Because of this (and helped along by a certain natural solipsism that comes with that physical setup), we tend to see the world as a thing we are observing from a separate place, as though there is a world around us, and then also us. This is a dual perspective, meaning there is a "Me," and there is an "Everything else," and this duality is the default position for pretty much all of us. But self-awareness changes all that, and offers an opportunity to come to understand that we are not lone observers watching a world go by, but rather are participants in a constant state of interaction with reality... we are not alone in our skulls but present, consciously, in the Thick of All Things.... and all this talk of "letting go," or "abandonment of ego," or whatever other happy cliches thoughtful types imagine, is simply nothing more than finding a way to step away from our natural dual perspective and into a much richer non-dual perspective.

      In the end, DawnEyes, no matter what they say to complicate it, you aren't actually abandoning your Self, you are reuniting with it, and the core "You" -- the one who put up all those bricks in the first place -- will always be there, memories, identity, and all; the difference is that that core You will no longer need to rely on those bricks to define who you are, or where you are -- you will simply be You, happily free to enjoy the Present without a load of crap weighing you down.

      And on the same note:

      Quote Originally Posted by DawnEye11 View Post
      Going off topic again but I just read a Buddhist magazine called "no self or true self" after i googled it. The person who wrote it explained that their teacher didn't have to worry to live up to any role. So for him, having no sense of self, was his true self. Even who he was from the past means nothing to him I think, cause childhood apparently "did its little dance" than ended. It was, and than it ended.

      I can see how you could live like this. The only thing is I like to recall my past at times even though it ended. I don't really need a role, however, I do think of it at times to keep me motivated. Like the article mentioned some of these things do hinder a person.So if its a problem than you should break free from it. But if you can live with it, without it hindering you than why should you cut it off?

      In the end, even with no self or true self we still have a name. We still like things. Dislike things. Think of the past. Etc. We don't fully get rid of it all even though we eventually end up with nothing.
      I think the best way to learn about this stuff, oddly, is to keep your nose out of Buddhist magazines, which by their nature (in my opinion) tend to over-complicate everything, simply because they must keep on finding ways to say the same simple thing over and over again (sort of like all those books and sites on LD'ing, now that I think of it! ).

      Based on what you wrote, for instance, I would find that teacher (or the student who may have misinterpreted his words) somewhat mistaken, because he has chosen to live without a sense of Self. Yes, it is an outstanding goal to live in the present, without concern for the past or future, but to give yourself the delusion that there was no past, or that it has been discarded, is to erase a lifetime of presence in the World, along with the wisdom that accompanies such presence (not to mention that the work involved in supporting such a delusion can be yet another delusion in itself). In a sense, the guy in the magazine is choosing to live not like an enlightened soul, but like a mindless drone... and yes, being a mindless drone can be a very comfortable existence (as the billions of mindless drones in this world would attest), but in the end that drone is missing out on the, yes, transcendental experience of mindfully participating in reality.

      Quote Originally Posted by RealityShifter View Post
      Wait, wait, wait something is wrong here. Are you telling that every time up until now, when I was trying to WILD by techniques created by myself, actually I was "transcending".
      I'm not sure this is what you were asking, but it got me thinking:

      Yes, by its nature a WILD (or DILD) is indeed a moment of transcendence, at least the first time it occurs. Since being awake (while you are asleep) in a dream is a completely new experience without reference points in memory or waking-life, a first-time lucid dream itself is a transcendental moment, if just a mild one. After that first time, the transcendence is done, because the dreamer has a basis of experience to draw on... well, it's done in terms of WILD and DILD transitions, but of course a whole universe of transcendental experience may still be in the offing...

      WILD offers even more transcendental moments, I think, because its process brings you through all the various levels of falling asleep with your waking-life self-awareness and memory intact, so you get to experience as new things like HI, dreamlets, and REM atonia.

      You can also tell that a first LD is a transcendental moment by the thousands of posts on these forums that start with something like "Was this a lucid dream?" or "What just happened to me," and entire forum sections are dedicated to dealing with -- often incorrectly -- all the noise that accompanies a WILD dive; all of which illustrates the extreme newness of their experience.

    13. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      That is a very interesting question. I would say yes, the dreamer must be awake during the dream (aka, lucid) in order for the transcendental moment to occur.

      This is because, as you already noted, nothing is unusual or beyond comprehension during a NLD. You could be skateboarding on Saturn's rings with choirs of angels cheering you on and it will all seem perfectly normal, because "You," with the tools of memory and self-awareness in hand, are not present to confirm that this is not the way reality is supposed to look.

      So transcendental moments could happen in NLD's (I personally believe they may happen all the time, BTW, and we just don't remember them as such, for the reason I just noted), but we don't recognize them as such during the dream. Instead, we remember them later and decide that they were something special... and yes, I would also say that we very often decide incorrectly, making all sorts of mystical magical attachments to a dream that was, well, just about skateboarding on a poorly conceived course. Now, the same problem exists -- where there is no metaphor, no filed memory, that can be used to properly describe the transcendent imagery -- but it is compounded by the fact that you are not "there" anymore, but are trying to remember where you were, and using memory as a tool for restoring the moment might just restore it incorrectly because, well, being a transcendent moment, your memory has no way of reproducing the imagery.

      Of course, we may have an exception to this rule right on this thread... Slash mentioned above that he has non-lucid transcendent moments, and I believe him. But he has also, I believe, deeply trained his mind to be perceptive of such things, so, being properly prepared, he may be able to enjoy transcendent moments without the presence of his waking-life self-awareness, and his memory has something to hold onto until he wakes up to review the dream. That to me is incredibly impressive, but also incredibly rare (kudos to Slash, BTW!).




      I think the best way to approach all this is by seeing it as utterly uncomplicated, with the obvious answers being the correct ones (as they often are with this stuff, regardless of the complex paths people take to describe them).

      So yes, that self you are trying to let go of is a separate person from the world; that "separateness," or dual perspective, is the thing you need to shed in order to realize the presence of your true Self. Why? Simply because it gets in the way. Let's forget the pile of crap for a sec, and instead see that separateness as sort of a big wall that you've been building since childhood, with each brick being some unnecessary priority (i.e., appearance, persona's, possessions, judgements, fears, nostalgia, and much more). These bricks eventually become stacked so high that you lose track of the individual who first started the stacking, and see only the bricks. By the same process you've come to call the wall your true self, with your true Self -- and its presence in reality -- lost behind the bricks. And so, that constructed self becomes an outside observer of the world, always associ-- OMG, now I'm spraying a word-firehose! Here, try this out:

      We are built, biologically, to be brains sitting inside a skull, dependent on our senses to bring us the outside world. Because of this (and helped along by a certain natural solipsism that comes with that physical setup), we tend to see the world as a thing we are observing from a separate place, as though there is a world around us, and then also us. This is a dual perspective, meaning there is a "Me," and there is an "Everything else," and this duality is the default position for pretty much all of us. But self-awareness changes all that, and offers an opportunity to come to understand that we are not lone observers watching a world go by, but rather are participants in a constant state of interaction with reality... we are not alone in our skulls but present, consciously, in the Thick of All Things.... and all this talk of "letting go," or "abandonment of ego," or whatever other happy cliches thoughtful types imagine, is simply nothing more than finding a way to step away from our natural dual perspective and into a much richer non-dual perspective.

      In the end, DawnEyes, no matter what they say to complicate it, you aren't actually abandoning your Self, you are reuniting with it, and the core "You" -- the one who put up all those bricks in the first place -- will always be there, memories, identity, and all; the difference is that that core You will no longer need to rely on those bricks to define who you are, or where you are -- you will simply be You, happily free to enjoy the Present without a load of crap weighing you down.

      And on the same note:



      I think the best way to learn about this stuff, oddly, is to keep your nose out of Buddhist magazines, which by their nature (in my opinion) tend to over-complicate everything, simply because they must keep on finding ways to say the same simple thing over and over again (sort of like all those books and sites on LD'ing, now that I think of it! ).

      Based on what you wrote, for instance, I would find that teacher (or the student who may have misinterpreted his words) somewhat mistaken, because he has chosen to live without a sense of Self. Yes, it is an outstanding goal to live in the present, without concern for the past or future, but to give yourself the delusion that there was no past, or that it has been discarded, is to erase a lifetime of presence in the World, along with the wisdom that accompanies such presence (not to mention that the work involved in supporting such a delusion can be yet another delusion in itself). In a sense, the guy in the magazine is choosing to live not like an enlightened soul, but like a mindless drone... and yes, being a mindless drone can be a very comfortable existence (as the billions of mindless drones in this world would attest), but in the end that drone is missing out on the, yes, transcendental experience of mindfully participating in reality.



      I'm not sure this is what you were asking, but it got me thinking:

      Yes, by its nature a WILD (or DILD) is indeed a moment of transcendence, at least the first time it occurs. Since being awake (while you are asleep) in a dream is a completely new experience without reference points in memory or waking-life, a first-time lucid dream itself is a transcendental moment, if just a mild one. After that first time, the transcendence is done, because the dreamer has a basis of experience to draw on... well, it's done in terms of WILD and DILD transitions, but of course a whole universe of transcendental experience may still be in the offing...

      WILD offers even more transcendental moments, I think, because its process brings you through all the various levels of falling asleep with your waking-life self-awareness and memory intact, so you get to experience as new things like HI, dreamlets, and REM atonia.

      You can also tell that a first LD is a transcendental moment by the thousands of posts on these forums that start with something like "Was this a lucid dream?" or "What just happened to me," and entire forum sections are dedicated to dealing with -- often incorrectly -- all the noise that accompanies a WILD dive; all of which illustrates the extreme newness of their experience.
      Okay. I probably should have stayed away when the teacher mentioned he was never born but I wasn’t sure if he was speaking in a symbolic way or not. To me it felt like the teacher was more out there than the student though.(At the last moment when I was done writing this post, I went back to a non duality page I opened and saw a sentence that said “don’t try to bring a past experience back but focus on what it awakened?” Could that possibly be what the teacher meant?) But anyways I love the brick example. It was easy to understand and cute to visualize, well to me it was.

      The brain example I had to think more about. I know I view myself as present and at times I think of myself as a seperate body. So when I think of myself as present i’am attached to the world and when I view myself as seperate i’am like a floating cut out layer on a digital page? Nice~ I do like feeling present more.

      Alright. Thanks again for explaining. I feel like I understand everything now unless I end up being wrong again. I feel a lot better to know that It doesn’t mean abandoning memories,identity,etc though. I know who I was before I put up all the bricks so it doesn’t feel bad to not rely on bricks.
      Last edited by DawnEye11; 03-06-2018 at 07:16 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      That is a very interesting question. I would say yes, the dreamer must be awake during the dream (aka, lucid) in order for the transcendental moment to occur.

      This is because, as you already noted, nothing is unusual or beyond comprehension during a NLD. You could be skateboarding on Saturn's rings with choirs of angels cheering you on and it will all seem perfectly normal, because "You," with the tools of memory and self-awareness in hand, are not present to confirm that this is not the way reality is supposed to look.

      OK, I think I see now—but you have it hinging on a binary lucid/non-lucid distinction, and in my own experience, the borderline is so fuzzy that it really doesn’t make sense to think about it as a borderline. Nowadays, I find that this area of uncertainty is where the most interesting things happen—more so than the unambiguously lucid dreams, even. I’ve heard this called false lucidity, but that suggests it’s a watered-down version of lucidity rather than a state with its own distinctive features, one of which is often an understanding that seems predicated on knowing that I’m dreaming, even if the words “this is a dream” never pass through my mind.

      This is why I mentioned comprehension in my post—I’ve had plenty of dreams where it’s an open question whether I was fitting the experience to a decidedly non-lucid understanding or whether the awareness was so expansive that the fact I was dreaming was just too obvious to be worth thinking about. When there are features of lucidity present and the dream doesn’t seem like something you’d have thought up and when you're dealing either with no imagery at all or with imagery that you knew was only a representation at the time - then it’s quite natural to wonder.

      Maybe it would be helpful to give some border cases to illustrate—but honestly, I’d just be doing it because I like poking at concepts—or, as the case seems to be here, the concept of going beyond concepts. And while that might be helpful for others as well, it would probably just drag everything back into the weeds. For my own part, I usually leave the question open because there’s no way of deciding it that’s rigorous enough, and because, considered practically, it usually doesn’t matter anyway.
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      I'm not sure this is what you were asking, but it got me thinking:

      Yes, by its nature a WILD (or DILD) is indeed a moment of transcendence, at least the first time it occurs. Since being awake (while you are asleep) in a dream is a completely new experience without reference points in memory or waking-life, a first-time lucid dream itself is a transcendental moment, if just a mild one. After that first time, the transcendence is done, because the dreamer has a basis of experience to draw on... well, it's done in terms of WILD and DILD transitions, but of course a whole universe of transcendental experience may still be in the offing...

      WILD offers even more transcendental moments, I think, because its process brings you through all the various levels of falling asleep with your waking-life self-awareness and memory intact, so you get to experience as new things like HI, dreamlets, and REM atonia.

      You can also tell that a first LD is a transcendental moment by the thousands of posts on these forums that start with something like "Was this a lucid dream?" or "What just happened to me," and entire forum sections are dedicated to dealing with -- often incorrectly -- all the noise that accompanies a WILD dive; all of which illustrates the extreme newness of their experience.
      When I first try to induce lucid dream from waking state. I was getting these dives, but was depending on how much time you can hold your consciousness. If you can hold long enough without falling asleep(you still get a wild), you can get a Full Dive. That can give you a lot of transcending moments or literally can make you brainfart
      My typical full dive was composed of the following steps:
      1)Relaxing body and mind
      2)Getting buzzing ears, which get more intense as time pass (like thousand bees)
      3)Body getting numb/heavy
      4)starting to get HI => if i fall asleep here i am getting LD
      5)Buzzing starting to turn in voices, which gets more clear as time pass. They are talking to each other, but can start to talk to me too and I can respond to them.
      Once I hear a man voice that was threatening me:
      crazy voice: I am going to kill you, I am going to kill your entire family, kill kill killllll....
      me:shut your trap
      crazy voice: I am not gonna stop until I make you crazy and stop you from proceeding forward.
      6) Starting to feel intense vibration all over my body, its like my teeths are going to fall. If I get through this, I am getting one of the two
      7a)Scary stuff appears.(ugly ass six legged creature with big teeth and many eyes which crawling on my legs toward my head. Waking up screaming.....
      7b) As if my limbs and body are melting down
      8)I am falling backward into a void and I am spinning.
      9)I am landing in darkness/emptiness, I don't have a body and I am composed of pure awareness, a single thought.
      From here I can find myself at strange and more stranger places.

      p.s. Don't, do it if you have a weak mind, can throw you in a mental hospital
      Last edited by RealityShifter; 03-06-2018 at 09:14 PM.

    16. #41
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      I wanna get back on topic now with everyone so I plan on putting some transcendental examples tomorrow. I want to do it before I forget what transcendental means and I get a slight headache from trying to remember. GNight~
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    17. #42
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      I might be wrong, but I don't think you did quite catch the thing I was talking about, Dawn. My bad.

      But I am glad to see the discussion that's been going on, and I've learned a lot from it too. I get what transcendental dreams are now.
      And I am beyond glad that Sageous has come in and made complete sense of this stuff for you, he's cleared up a lot of misunderstandings that I created. What a lad.


      I will, at some point soon, post a thread named "Advaita Vedanta". It's actually an insanely simple thing, which I definitely over-complicated in here, so I'll start fresh in there, for anyone that wants to give it a shot.



      RealityShifter: That's definitely transcendental.
      Last edited by slash112; 03-07-2018 at 11:14 AM.
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    18. #43
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      It's okay Slash. : ) I think that's a great idea. I will check out your thread when you make it so I can see what you were really talking about.

      These are some dreams here I feel were possibly transcendental.

      1)I found this dream from my earlier entries.

      "The game ended and I suddenly appeared in a bright yellow room where the walls looked like the night sky. There I saw a big lizard [who looked like a orange iguana] with a small white, kind of fluffy tail. I was eager to pass the second test so i was like "okay,I'm ready." He told me to take a apple and to get rid of the ants that were on the red wine colored arm chair.So I took the apple and started to squish the ants that were on the chair. When I looked at the apple i saw an ant ate through the apple and was kind of still alive.That's when the iguana thing started saying I have a tail like him. But his tail is more silky, softer and white. I was like oh and than he said dogs are smarter than cats. So I guess i had a cat tail."

      I don't know if I got the message of this dream before because I saw no notes to it. However, I realized the message was that I didn't have to harm the ants to get them out. I could have used the apple. Than again you can't trap all ants in your home with an apple. So how would this be applicable to a real life situation? probably by not abandoning being kind to nature.

      2)
      "Dawn was showing me how to make a dream journal. He took a yellow folder and broke another yellow folder to make the cover seal for it. He stapled white paper inside it and said that not much people do this but they should try it because it can come in handy. Its also cheap"

      I don't recall if I've done something like this before. I remember stapling paper together to make a book when I was little but I don't think I got the idea to make a cover using a folder. Either way this felt like a arts and craft moment where you get a idea.

      3)I think this dream was from one year ago.
      In the dream I couldn't see myself but I heard my voice(with some reverb) calling my green parakeet. It was a bit fuzzy, the scene was tinted pink and my eye level was more on the level of my parakeet. The scenery was bubbling with emotion of safety, happiness and excitement. As if I was seeing things almost through my bird's perspective.

      I was curious during this time if animals had dreams. I dont think I had a dream where I was or was close to being my pet before so this was pretty cool.

      4)I was crying more than i should have and fainted for the first time. Instantly i became lucid. I was looking up at the ceiling feeling at peace despite having fainted. I also was curious what was above the walls. Weird thing is I wasn't worried about myself or my body. I just accepted it as what happened. Than when I woke up I felt a sense of calmness and was happy for some reason.

      For me it was like a sign that meant there is a time for tears and a time to stop and relax.The lucid dream gave me the opportunity to relax within the dream and I guess fainting gave my body a break.

      5) A dream I had last night where I was talking to my dream guide on a phone. I was semi lucid( aware i was asleep but forgot i had moved)and asking him to take me somewhere amazing.He sounded unwilling so I tried to convince him by reminding him of a artistic thing I did for them. I forgot the title of the art though. When he mentioned it before I could I was surprised. I don't get many of these moments where someone knows the answer before I do although it has happened before.

      Makes me wonder if I could have figured out my old password in the past with a dream. Although in WL I do know the name so maybe it doesn't count.

      Now i have another question. If transcendental dreams really only happen once....what if the first time it wasn't enough. Could the dreamer have a similar dream that boosts the impact of the other dream? Kind of like how when you get a immunization shot and if it wasn't enough the doctor gives it to the patient again another time to have the proper percentage.

      Well, I could come up with some more dreams but I'm not sure if they were transcendental for sure. I also don't want to flood this thread so I guess this is sufficient for now.
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    19. #44
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      3 and 4 sound like possibly transcendental dreams.

      I'd love to hear what Sageous thinks.

    20. #45
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      : )Yeah but its good to know what you think as well Slash. Like why do you think 3 and 4 are possibly transcendental or you could tell me what you think about my question. But maybe my question is difficult since none of us are sure of ourselves. >. <
      Last edited by DawnEye11; 03-08-2018 at 01:50 PM.
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    21. #46
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      In answer to my questioning, I experienced something extraordinary. In fact, some experiences simply defy words, and this is one of
      them. In the first part of this experience, I exist without a sense of self
      or identity. In the second part, I regain a sense of self. Here is what
      happened, as best I can explain (December 1995 ):
      As if a floating point of light in an expanse of aware, living light, the
      self-less awareness exists. Here, all awareness connects. All awareness
      intersects. All knowledge exists within the brilliant, clear, creamy light
      of awareness. Awareness is all; one point contains the awareness of all
      points; nothing exists apart. Pure awareness, knowing, light.
      Then, suddenly aware of the black-gray dream space and the lone
      figure standing there, I try to get my bearings. Recalling the aware light
      just experienced, I ask the robed figure, "Was that a lucid dream?"
      "No, " the figure replies. "To enter a lucid dream, go this way."
      He points to the empty space in front of him.
      Knowing intuitively that the entry to regular dreams is to the left,
      I move right, toward the entry space for lucid dreams. As I cross an
      invisible boundary, my awareness hurtles through a tunnel of whitishblue
      light, along whose surface I see intermittently various raised symbols
      - ovals, triangles, double triangles, circles. I continue moving until
      I know intuitively that to enter a lucid dream means going up.
      Heading up toward lucid dreams, I feel something I©ve never before
      experienced. Around the crown of my head, I feel intense, explosive
      blasts of energy, localized but moving in a circular pattern. Bam! Bam!
      Bam! Bam! The energy rings in my mind.
      Moments later, I know I'm preparing to enter a lucid dream.
      Until, as if by magic, I emerge through the floor of a dream scene,
      fully lucid.


      Page 81 - Gateway to the inner self. Robert Waggoner.

      First thing I thought about when I read this thread...
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 03-08-2018 at 06:37 PM.
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      Well, Dawn, I could only draw upon my own experience, and any transcendental experience I've ever known somehow involves a loss of the sense of body.

      In 3, you talk about seeing things through the parakeet's perspective. To me that suggests that your sense of body was either completely changed or even gone. And you were experiencing something completely outwith the bounds of human experience.

      In 4, you talk about fainting then feeling calmness and not being worried about your body.
      Going into a blissful state, that's a pretty good sign of transcendence, to me. Not to mention, the loss of sense of body.

      Oddly enough, some of my earliest memories of transcendental experiences were when I fainted, a few times, in waking life.
      At the time, the thought of transcendence never even crossed my mind. But when I look back on it, I see that my conscious mind sorta floated away from me and I became almost a blissful, silent observer to it. I say "almost", because when I fainted, I would put all my strength into keeping my conscious mind awake, so I never actually fainted, I just remained slightly conscious while I practically took a fit falling to the floor. Sounds like a big struggle, but honestly, the calmness that came over me was significant and indescribable.




      About your question, I assume it's this one:
      Now i have another question. If transcendental dreams really only happen once....what if the first time it wasn't enough. Could the dreamer have a similar dream that boosts the impact of the other dream? Kind of like how when you get a immunization shot and if it wasn't enough the doctor gives it to the patient again another time to have the proper percentage.
      Who said they only happen once?
      Perhaps the meaning behind that is, you only wake up to transcendence once? Then every time after that, it's just normality...
      I mean, when I woke up to transcendence (while awake, not dreaming), it WAS like a one-off thing, like, I can never have that experience again. I can transcend my body/mind at will, but I can never experience the amazement, shock and awe of "waking up" to it. And that was AFTER having experienced a few things that could be considered transcendental, but before that point I had never "woke up" to it, and I never will again.

      Note: The way I see it, "waking up" to it, is like a moment of experience, realization and a little bit of understanding, all at the one time.
      But I'm pretty damn sure that not everyone has a singular moment that they could say "that's when I woke up". Some people wake up slowly. So I wouldn't entirely agree that you can only have one transcendental "waking up" moment.

      But anyways, I don't know if this is what the person meant when they said it really only happens once.




      LighrkVader, I love that! Thanks for the share!
      The link may get removed tho. Last I checked, links to anything pirated is against the rules.
      Last edited by slash112; 03-08-2018 at 03:16 PM.
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    23. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by DawnEye11 View Post
      Now i have another question. If transcendental dreams really only happen once....what if the first time it wasn't enough. Could the dreamer have a similar dream that boosts the impact of the other dream? Kind of like how when you get a immunization shot and if it wasn't enough the doctor gives it to the patient again another time to have the proper percentage.
      In case you think it was me who said this, it was not what I meant.

      I think I was saying that you can call your first LD a transcendental event, because you have never before experienced a state of being awake while you are asleep, and after that first time the transitions to LD's are not necessarily transcendent because lucidity is a thing you've already experienced. But that example aside, you can certainly have more than one moment of transcendence; and I for one believe that LD'ing is an excellent tool for encouraging innumerable transcendental experiences (even more than meditation, I think, because you are starting out in a place -- dreams -- where unusual or novel experiences are commonplace). So, even though you can only call your first successful WILD or DILD transition a transcendent experience, there really is no limit to the number of transcendent experiences you might have in future LD's.

      Keep in mind that transcendence is simply the discovery of something that ranges beyond your experience or knowledge (and possibly beyond any human experience or knowledge), and when they happen in dreams it is very difficult to "bring them back," because they lack metaphoric handles that your memory can grab to retain them.

      Also, not that I want to counter Slash's thoughts (because I don't), but transcendent experiences do not need to require the absence of your dream body, and vice-versa: Pretty much all of my highly lucid dreams do not include the presence of a dream body, and pretty much all of those dreams were not transcendental experiences.
      Last edited by Sageous; 03-08-2018 at 06:04 PM.
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      Aha! Mystery solved.

      That makes a lot of sense actually. And, my understanding of transcendental dreams just 1up'd again.

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      Yup. It's a good one. I just wish he hadn't gone straight for the LD but stuck around to ask the robed figure some questions first.

      As for my own transcendental dream experiences, really all I can think of right now was the first time I reached a high level of lucidity in a super-vivid dream and got to experience the sensational similarity of dream to real life. That centered me into some perspectives that I had already understood theoretically but could not perceive directly... Doing that was a stepping stone into new territory where I could learn to understand, and then eventually, some times after transcendent like experiences learn to "feel" or "know" other basic truths.

      I think that's a big part of transcendence. It can often be about things that if someone can explain it well you can grasp it, and agree with it... But that's not really worth all that much. Rather I would dare say that in that state you are in a way being controlled by the idea itself. It's not a part of your being in a true way untill you feel it. (this can obviously be argued against)

      Then something transcendent happens, you can't really put your finger on what happened or changed, but now you can feel and experience directly the truth of what you once only understood partially.

      Edit: took away the pirate book link. It's cheap on amazon anyway. At least it was...5$ or something. But if someone want's to just read chapter 7, then it would be stupid to have to buy the whole book. PM me if that's the case.
      Last edited by LighrkVader; 03-08-2018 at 06:42 PM.
      slash112 and DawnEye11 like this.
      Half of the time we're gone and we don't know where...

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