Evil Lucid Dreamers?

I just had a dream that started normal, but ended very strangely. I was in school walking around and once I got to a certain area the dream dematerialized. I drifted into another dream where I was in a gym. A dream character said someone was looking for me. I walked around then came back and saw someone who I felt was familiar. All of a sudden I started spinning and couldn't stop. I realized he was either an abnornal dream character or an outside entity and rebuked him. The dream dematerialized and I lay in bed pondering what happened.

As I do, I get a bad case of sleep paralysis and can't move at all. I then hear a woman's voice mocking me for not being able to move. I manage to flail my arms around but can't speak. She alludes to working with the guy I saw in the dream and another guy and ask me to join them. A screen appears before me and I decline.

Am I going crazy?

Has this happened to anyone else?

Is there a group of rogue lucid dreamers?

Don't panic. It happens.

It's just a case of sleep paralysis, you should keep in mind that it is just some hallucination and keep calm then it won't scare you. Once you learn how to deal with it, it won't bother you. Your were dreaming.
If you need to get out of a SP you can change your breathing frequency and move the tips of you fingers so your body will know you're awake or you can use the situation and go to a Lucid Dream.

I have some friends that actually use SP to get into lucid dreams, there is no need to fear it. When the fear disappears the hallucination disappears too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 1wilian

If you need to get out of a SP you can change your breathing frequency and move the tips of you fingers so your body will know you're awake

---

I second this. I can not always get my fingers to move, but can always gently curl and uncurl my toes. After a minute of that I can move my hands, then suddenly I am awake enough to move. I do not suffer from classic SP but am often aware while in the same state (minds comes awake before body). Only a couple times have I had the full frightening experience.
On another front I will tell you that I am totally convinced in external entities in dreams. Maybe not everyone's, but for sure mine. They scared the piss out of me at first. Even when I was ok with the human looking ones I would still panic and freak out if it was an alien looking creature. Had I been superstitious and avoid them or LDing out of fear I would have missed out. Some of my best memories are from time spent with dream/astral entities. In fact they can greatly enhance a beginners clarity and stability when they are around, as if them being there brings all aspects of the dream up a notch. Even better, they can become teachers if you are lucky. A great part of my dream skills came from interacting with them. Do not trust your sense of panic, and do not assume they are bad because you are scared. Many things are scary and wonderful, perhaps even kind.
As far as rouge lucid dreamers, I doubt it. It takes so long to master your own dreams and no one here has ever reported solid clear interaction in a shared dream. Far more likely is an astral entity. I often do not remember, but have found one of the best ways to deal with a situation like your is to sit on the ground with your hands in your lap and be calm.Try to stay aware and stabile and watch what they say or do. If you are calm enough say something simple like, "I hope to learn much more control of myself while I travel here" It is an indirect request for them to guide you a little. May not work the first few times. Think of the kung-fu stories of kids sitting in front of the monistary all year hoping to be picked.

Thanks for the feedback. I've been lucid dreaming for years, but this dream was very strange. In most of my dreams I can control every aspect of the dream. In a few I've encountered what I call "abnormal dream characters" that I am unable to control and that seem to exert their own will.

I've been trying as of late to stop dreaming but I've been unable to. I used to record my dreams in a journal, but I started having so many dreams that it's easier for me to record the nights where I don't have any. It's gotten to the point where I have multiple dreams a night and it feels like I don't sleep anymore - I'm either awake or dreaming. If anyone has any advice for going back to normal that would be great.

Sivason, I would like to hear more of your experiences. How were you able to differentiate between dream and astral beings? Do astral beings barge into your dreams? A few dreams I've had felt like I was in someone else's dream - is that even possible?

A friend of mine had a bad experience astral projecting, so I've never tried it. The closest I've come to it is having sleep paralysis and seeing shadow figures or visions while unable to move. I believe sleep paralysis and lucid dreaming are more connected than we think. One instance of it literally saved my life, though I generally only get sleep paralysis when I try to seek answers to deep questions. A few times I've asked dream characters such questions they have spazzed out. The last time I asked I was told there was a limit to the questions that could be answered.

I used to have precognitive dreams, until I tried to use them for my personal gain. I saw a hooded shadow figure after a dream dematerialized and I have had no luck in that area of dreaming since. I'm still searching for anyone who's had similar experiences. I'm convinced there are people out there who are much better lucid dreamers than myself. If I could have precognitive dreams, then there are people out there who have made it much farther than where I was in the past. I may sound a little paranoid, but I think there is a secret society of dreamers.

There's no way to not dream - the closest you could come would be to have really bad recall. We dream 6 or 7 times most nights, during each REM period (and in between too actually - it's more flexible than some sleep scientists seem to think it is).

Maybe your answer is to go back to non-lucid dreaming more frequently, or low-level lucidity. Though I suppose if you've become some kind of dream master you've developed the pathways that make it easy to enter high-level lucidity frequently - that's a tough one. Maybe you need to find things to do in the dreams that don't rock the boat too much? Just simple little tasks that won't upset your dream police? (Who seem to be pretty authoritarian! :mwahaha:)


Or hey, maybe try some reverse mantras? things like "Every night I forget my dreams, roll over and go back to sleep, and my awareness is very low"! :lol:

Sleep paralysis apparently happens mostly when people sleep on their backs. If you can fall asleep on your side or face down there's a lot less likelihood of it. Maybe when you're going into sleep preparing to ask the deep questions you get more formal and lay on your back or something? Or maybe it can also be triggered by trying to do things the dreaming mind doesn't like, such as asking the deep questions? (Or asking them too frequently - you should ask for the rulebook so you know how long you need to wait :chuckle:!)

"I may sound a little paranoid, but I think there is a secret society of dreamers." - Or, maybe if you try to use these abilities for personal benefit there's some inner consciousness that punishes you for it? Just as has always been suggested in every iteration of magic. Ever watch the show Charmed? Even there they had a rule that you can't use magic for personal gain or you must pay a dear price. This is also in effect in many movies with sorcery, witchcraft or wizardry. And it's not just the movies, if you look into actual books based on ancient sources, it's there too. Hell, even in the Marvel movies - "With great power comes great responsibility". It ain't just Spiderman that applies to! It's life wisdom. If you're developing power, whether that be through dreams or in waking life, you need to use it responsibly or you will pay some kind of price. Not because of any magic or anything, it's just karma in its real sense - what you put out into the world is what you get back.

That's my take on it anyway, though I've heard through some pretty advanced lucid dreamers the idea that there are some kind of Dream Police, and nobody can tell if it's as you suggest a cadre of powerful dream masters who patrol like cops and hand out tickets for traffic infractions, or if it's more of an internal balancing factor keeping people from using their abilities for their own ill-gotten gains. I haven't encountered that myself yet, but it sounds like either way, as long as you keep your nose clean you should be alright (unless the Dream Police are crooked cops and not really moral).

I think these characters that are described here are not other lucid dreamers, they're expressions of spirits of some sort, at least partially connected to the thoughts and character of the dreamer. There may be a real perception of another person expressed in the experience, but its indirect, and changed into something else.

I think that the way we perceive spirits has a lot to do with how we expect to perceive them, and how they want to appear. Their appearance may reflect qualities they have, but they don't really have fixed appearances like people and animals do. I think they're not even individual beings in quite the same sense that people and animals are, even though they can express themselves as individuals.

I think that if you have love and courage in your heart, then you don't get much trouble from bad spirits in dreams, at least not in such a direct way. Saying that may be easier than doing it of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I think these characters that are described here are not other lucid dreamers, they're expressions of spirits of some sort, at least partially connected to the thoughts and character of the dreamer.

---

Do you think they might be some psychological part of the dreamer, like archetypes or maybe sometimes a complex or something? Keeping in mind that if they're representatives of some part of the unconscious, that's a dark and mysterious realm that we know little about and contains multitudes. According to Jung's theories of course the unconscious is what has been alternately called Heaven and Hell, Mt. Olympus, Valhalla, and as many other names as there are religions, and the various Gods, Devils, and other entities described in the holy books and spiritual systems are all parts of the unconscious psyche. But he also seems to believe they have an objective existence that isn't entirely dependent on your own personal psychology (while being largely related to it), but also related to the broader experience of all mankind in general (collective unconscious).

I'm curious about your viewpoint on this, seeing as you seem to have some personal experience with it and to be quite good at articulating your thoughts on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I think that if you have love and courage in your heart, then you don't get much trouble from bad spirits in dreams, at least not in such a direct way. Saying that may be easier than doing it of course.

---

:clap: I couldn't have said it better myself, and I agree with the last part especially! :parapet:

I hear loud voices in my room and the covers get pulled down then i feel my self being pulled out of my bed as if i were in a drawer I hover perfectly parallel to the floor then it feels like I go thru the walls of my bedroom . This is just the beginning.

Darkmatters:

From my own experience, I'm 100% sure that there's something supernatural involved, that it can't all be explained in terms of subconscious brain function. I've ranted about Jung on this site before. Much of his writing very clearly implied some kind of supernatural element, but he remained respectable in professional circles by never coming right out and saying it. For instance if pressed about the collective unconscious, he might say that its collective in the sense that our shared biology and experience produce those same patterns, but there's nothing telepathetic or otherwise paranormal going on. And he might say that synchronicity is a way of choosing to interpret experience, but doesn't assume anything like fate or providence. But when you read many of the things he says about synchronicity or the collective unconscious, there's no way it can actually work in the way he says it does without a supernatural element. I guess he never saw a need to ask those questions very hard, because they weren't key to his main arguments, but I still see it as a cop-out.

On the other side of that, I don't think its possible to describe this sort of thing in supernatural terms without including the psychological side also. Whatever the fates and muses are, they can't be completely separated from our own subconscious thoughts and desires, even though they can't be completely explained that way also.

As you know, in some eastern and New Age teachings there is the idea of a 'higher self'. A term my muse has used is 'higher kin'. Its not really 'me', but its not really 'not me' either, there's a relationship.

I think that providence has access to a lot of knowledge about how things tend to play out over time. There must be or have been a very large number of other worlds very, very similar to this one, either real, or unreal but knowable in some other way we don't understand. I think that for the most part fate doesn't understand the world in terms of models, ideas or principles like we tend to, even though it sometimes communicates with us in those ways when necessary. I don't know what the overall purpose or end goal is, though it seems pretty clear that there is one. A lot of events that appear to be 'natural evil' or bad luck are intelligently coordinated. In a way it seems kind of diabolical, though I suppose that it is in some sense necessary, that things would be worse later if done differently now. I've had many dreams on this topic, how fate works, but I don't understand them. Its as if there aren't any images or metaphors in my world that are at all adequate, so all I get is a vague impression of something that I can't really do anything with.

I guess a lot depends on how you contextualize things. What people call supernatural, if it actually exists, I would consider natural. But I guess that depends on what we’re talking about. I think when Jung spoke about synchronicity, he definitely included the possibility of telepathy and precognition, or at least strongly hinted at them, but of course as Freud warned him, he couldn’t talk openly about that without risking his reputation as a psychologist. On the Collective Unconscious, yes, he changed the name to the Objective Unconscious, mostly because it had been co-opted by New Agers as support for all their fanciful notions, and on a superficial reading there seems to be plenty of room for that kind of interpretation. But I see no reason why anything supernatural needs to be involved there. If we all have the same inborn templates in the unconscious that predispose us to certain kinds of experiences and to dreaming about or seeing (in visions etc) certain kinds of beings or entities (whatever you want to call them), I think that covers it pretty well without any need to resort to typical notions of the supernatural.

I often use the metaphor of a cheerily-lit village in a dark jungle for the relationship between the conscious and unconscious, but here I think a better one is a tropical island surrounded by ocean. Most of us generally never go much deeper than splashing around in the shallows, except now and then when something from the deep unconscious intrudes. Keep in mind, the brain is still built around the original core - the lizard brain (and inside of that must be a fish brain or something, or would they be the same?) Then the mammal brain (limbic system) around that and finally the outermost and newest layer the neocortex, which houses most of the apparatus for the conscious mind, including everything that allows us to think in abstract terms and create things like art and math. I think when we experience what feels truly alien it’s sometimes an intrusion from those very primitive parts of the mind.

I also think some people draw a line at a certain depth in the ‘ocean’ and say anything below this line is supernatural - you know, those pulsating, glowing creatures from the Marianas Trench or something, that look like they belong on a microscope slide in a drop of stagnant water. They seem totally alien, and yet they aren’t. They’re just from such a different part of the world, where we can’t even exist without special James Cameron style deep sea equipment to protect us from the pressures. I believe this same range of extreme difference exists between the conscious and the deep unconscious, and that what comes from those depths is frequently regarded (quite rightly) with supernatural dread, which doesn’t mean they actually ARE supernatural, but that people see them that way, just because they‘re so far removed from anything we think of as human.

Maybe it’s a mistake to keep using these metaphors. Deep sea creatures really have nothing in common with the kinds of beings/entities people report. I just use it because it makes certain things easier to understand I think - the absolute weirdness and incomprehensibility of certain things we encounter. It’s just that I think those things definitely come from the deep unconscious, and in fact that whenever people have experienced what they consider magical or supernatural that’s exactly what they have encountered (the unconscious I mean).

Are there other ‘swimmers’ down there (meaning other lucid dreamers or astral travelers etc)? Well, maybe. I'm fairly open to ideas like telepathy and precognition. I’ve experienced what seem like legitimate cases of both, but there’s always also a sense that it could have just been a strange dream. Example, a few weeks ago I dreamed I was drifting high in the sky looking down onto a back alley area of an unfamiliar city and below me a helicopter was descending into a parking lot. I somehow knew my roommate was piloting the copter. When it landed a car sitting on the lot started up and slammed into it 3 times. Then in an instant dream cut I was sitting on a nearby park bench with the roomie discussing the incident, but rather than a helicopter we called it his truck. Later in that day, in waking life, his truck got hit by a car. When he told me about it I immediately remembered the dream and told him about it. Of course it's only in retrospect that it seemed prophetic or precognitive, but there’s no sense in which it could have been helpful. I had no idea it was telling me about something that would really happen, so I couldn’t warn him to be careful driving. Maybe if I had a stronger belief in precognition I might have interpreted it that way, but it didn’t occur to me until afterwards. Maybe my weak connection with it, or my lack of full belief, makes the dreams weird (his truck showing up as a helicopter for instance). But then maybe precognition isn’t really to help us plan or to warn us, but simply happens.

Maybe my re-definition of the word supernatural (at the top) is just semantics? Maybe if precognition and telepathy do exist they’re not ’supernatural’ at all (in fact by definition I guess if they're real they couldn’t be, could they?) And if we really can communicate with each other ‘ethereally’ somehow, why couldn’t there be ‘other entities’ that also interact with us, but can only do it through the medium of the psyche, showing up as dream characters or archetypes? But it raises the question - what are they? Are they completely disembodied, or do they exist physically somewhere? This last paragraph is directed at myself by the way, not you. It’s actually pretty hard, if you get deeply into Jung, not to start opening up to possibilities like this, but I still don’t see it as what’s commonly meant by supernatural. Though that might just mean I need to update my understanding of what it does mean. I think you have a much more sophisticated understanding of it than any I’ve seen elsewhere, which are often very primitive or simplistic.

With more than half of my lucid dreams i encounter 'police' or someone hellbent on ending my experience. Its usually soon after i attain lucidity..whether im being dragged away, running, or locked up in the back of squad car, the outcomes the same. Forget control or manipulation, its like my world is turned upside down almost instantaneously. Last night i attempted to induce a lucid dream (which is very rare) i love to read about dream experience's but rarely attempt to induce it. I woke up in middle of night and vaguely recall fragments about a fresh lucid dream experience but not much else. When i went back to sleep i had the most evil draconian dream experience in years. It was sadistic and something i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy (split into two different dreams). Anyone have a good explanation why this never occurs in my regular dreams? Never. Not to rain on anyones parade, i acknowledge many do have postive ld experiences however its like i should anticipate a big fcking neon sign that states, you are not welcome.

^^ I could be wrong, PrisonPlanet, but here's a thought you might consider: Maybe those LD's you had weren't LD's at all, but dreams about LD's, generated perhaps by some unconscious expectation you might have developed that the lucid realm is a place you're not meant to visit.

I know that sounds silly on its face, but you might give it a thought. I've come to believe that many of the dreams we (myself included) remember to be lucid really never were. Our unconscious/dreaming minds are fully capable of conjuring a dream -- based on often deep expectation -- whose content is a story of us becoming lucid and then encountering all the stuff they talk about on the web; including the bad stuff. You might have generated some expectations that included things like dream police and maybe that LD'ing was not a "correct" thing to do in the first place, and your dreaming mind simply obliged by offering up a dream about being lucid, including all the things going wrong that you can imagine... you might even have inadvertently punished yourself after that brief bit of lucidity with that draconian dream (you might, for that matter have never woken up at all, with that perceived wake-up just being an aspect of the dream).

In other words, there may be no evil demons or dream police at all; just DC's created by your dreaming mind in response to cues it was given based on your thoughts about LD'ing. How to fix this? I'm not sure, because it might require a major shift in your mindset; however, I have a feeling that if you were to become successful at actually LD'ing, you might find that, perhaps over time, the dream police will fade into the background... and, in the end, maybe you'll have "good" LD's from then on, along with a permanent annoyance for the folks who muddy the water for so many new LD'ers by inventing cool memes like dream police.

Again, just a thought...

^ Seconded. I know many of what I have considered lucid dreams actually were more like regular dreams where I just said something like "I know this is a dream" in the dream (or just thought it), but didn't really have the higher awareness associated with real lucidity.

Thats a possibility however im not sure i ever had a negative perception about lucid dreaming or that its harmful, and im pretty confident they began as lucid dreams (i still have most of them written down) they usually begin as lucid state with me questioning dc's but nothing too strange would occur..sometimes id just fade back to a regular boring dream..your right that i wouldnt consider myself a successful lucid dreamer (i practiced when i was younger but no longer) i do believe its generated from bad stuff but possibly bad things that happened throughout my day (possibly stress\anxiety) and not as much related to dreams or expectations.

My impression was that the "dream police" we're an interpretation of some factor sensed to be outside of one's own imagination which was preventing the lucidity. My most lucid dreams have a fairly short time limit, about a minute, beyond which I get pushed out of the dream. But my impression is that its some kind of physiological limitation, and I interpret it that way.

On the subject of what is or isn't a lucid dream, I think there's no clear line, its different for different people. Historically, pretty much all of my dreams are lucid in the sense that I'm aware that I'm dreaming and able to actively think about what I'm dreaming about, and I'm not just dreaming about that. This doesn't mean however that those dreams have the same kind of vivid sensate experience that I've had in other more conventional lucid dreams, where my visual field looks complete and realistic except for poorer than usual peripheral vision. That latter kind of dream is the kind I can't sustain for long. There isn't a clear line that separates the different kinds of dreams though.

As a side topic, an interesting question is how you know you're 'lucid' right now, and not just imagining that you're lucid. For instance, are you capable of making a choice, or are you merely imagining that you are? My opinion is that the experience of being able to make a choice is imagined, its a kind of mental simulation, just like one's visual experience is. And like the visual experience, it doesn't totally tell the truth, but that doesn't make it totally wrong either. There is a collective/external reality, notwithstanding that our experience of it is a personal hallucination, and similarly we do have some mental freedom, notwithstanding that its not what we imagine it to be.

Perhaps it is physiological..i really dont know. Regarding what's real in lucid dreams i suppose its a matter of opinion. I do find it extremely difficult to believe (with ld's) we control everything w 100% certainty (the nightmare i mentioned wasn't a great example and may not of had anything to do with lucid dreaming, it simply could've been a coincidence..trying to induce ld hrs earlier) i do believe in the afterlife (but dont subscribe to any specific religion) and it doesn't seem illogical to me that spirits could influence our dreams. I could be wrong. However, if not, the jokes been on us for a very long time.

could be something that came from within you, could be an astral being or another dreamer - only you can figure this out. I did get attacked once in a dream by another dreamer - it really scared the crap out of me, but it turns out it was a dreamer I used to share dreams with from a few months before lol. He was just experimenting :) Rule of thumb is, if it feels foreign and out of place then it usually is - you can just feel the difference between your own mind projection and something other. Also there are lots of different stages of lucidty, though I just call it semi lucidity - you know you are dreaming but your left and right side of your brain is working together a little more cohesively and creates a semi awareness - which can work equally as well though you don't question the dream narrative as much.

At this point I've encountered abnormal dream characters many times. I'm certain at this point that it isn't me: neither consciously nor subconsciously. What I've discovered very recently is that there is a "light web". He that has eyes, let him see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kixerus

At this point I've encountered abnormal dream characters many times. I'm certain at this point that it isn't me: neither consciously nor subconsciously. What I've discovered very recently is that there is a "light web". He that has eyes, let him see.

---

I am very curious what you mean by light web. I know of something I could easily describe that way.

I just recently met an evil lucid being in my dream and I had to transform into my ultimate imagery form. The battle was amazing, totally out of this world.:chuckle:


"The most powerful force in this world is "imagination". Anything I imagine, anything at all, becomes reality."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GordanFreeman

I just recently met an evil lucid being in my dream and I had to transform into my ultimate imagery form. The battle was amazing, totally out of this world.:chuckle:


"The most powerful force in this world is "imagination". Anything I imagine, anything at all, becomes reality."

---

I try not to fight them if I can. It has always turned out that I was not understanding much and made a huge ass of myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sivason

I try not to fight them if I can. It has always turned out that I was not understanding much and made a huge ass of myself.

---

The damn b**** threatened my "dream family" and that really pissed me off:furious: So I slice her on tiny little pieces and burn her to ashes:twisted: The hilarious part was that I was finally able to use the mental image of myself, that I was creating for so long. When I transformed I really felt on another level, bursting with power! So this battle was really helpful for me.

Her last words were "What the hell are you???" :laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sivason

I am very curious what you mean by light web. I know of something I could easily describe that way.

---

Basically the light web is the dream world equivalent to the dark web we have in the real world, only much more extensive. It's basically just a digital version of the Akashic records. I've accessed it a few times, but there is always heavy resistance in doing so.

I'm just replying now because I just had an interesting dream. The details of the dream aren't that important, what is is the fact that I encountered two abnormal dream characters. They were different from most abnormal dream characters I encounter, who are mostly sadistic and don't seem to have a high intelligence, these abnormal dream characters seemed intelligent. They tried to trap me in the dream, but I was able to wake myself up before they could.

Upon waking up I was stuck in an instance loop. I had sleep paralysis and couldn't move, but I could see one of the men from the corner of my eye. I eventually got up and attacked them, but then I was in the bed again. I tried to reach my phone right next to my bed, but couldn't. I rolled out of bed, grabbed it, was going to record, but then I was in bed again. Eventually the loop ended and I was able to really grab my phone and record the events.

I know I cannot be the only one who's experienced these abnormal dream characters. I'm going to make a new thread when I compile more information on them.