Do Any of You Have 100% Control?

I've been lucid dreaming for a long time now. Despite this, I do not have 100% control of my dreams. I keep encountering abnormal dream characters that do their own thing. Some are benign, while others are actively evil. If it were up to me I would have completely different dreams than the ones I have. Sometimes it feels like I'm in someone else's dream. The best way I can explain it is I become aware that I'm dreaming I change a few things and then there are these entities, like agents from the Matrix, that actively oppose me. In some dreams entities oppose me and some seem stronger than me, preventing me from changing things. An example: when distressed, I always resort to the Kamehameha technique from Dragon Ball. But when these entities are present it has no effect whatsoever.

Perhaps my subconsciousness is in defiance to my consciousness, is this normal? It irks me not having full control. Do any of you have dreams where you have 100% control? If so, how did you get to that point? Thanks in advance for replies.

Try facing the entities in the dream rather than attempting to control. Flow love to them. Ask them questions about if they have a message for you, what they represent, or why they are doing what they are doing. Look up shadow integration.

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Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

Try facing the entities in the dream rather than attempting to control. Flow love to them. Ask them questions about if they have a message for you, what they represent, or why they are doing what they are doing. Look up shadow integration.

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Love also has no affect on them. They seem to only want to wreak havoc. I looked up shadow integration, it seems interesting - though if the evil demonstrated by these abnormal dream characters is my shadow, I'd rather not integrate it. I know my id is overactive and my superego can be somewhat judgmental. I believe I have found a balance though in my waking life. In my dreams my id needs to be checked. Though sometimes I feel as if I am in someone else's dream rather than my own. Could these abnormal dream characters perhaps be foreign ideas?

With dream control, it comes right down to Expectations. If you are expecting that character is going to overpower you, then they will. Just to put that out there that becoming aware that you are dreaming doesn't equal dream control.


Yeah, it feels strange to feel like you are in someone else's dream. It's even stranger to feel like you are in someone's body and feel like you seeing thing from their perspective.


BTW: Please take what I say about the subject with a grain of salt, I know there are probably people out there who know more and better about the subject than I do. I don't want to steer you in the wrong direction. I'm experienced in this but, it doesn't mean I think that I know everything. ;)

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

Love also has no affect on them. They seem to only want to wreak havoc. I looked up shadow integration, it seems interesting - though if the evil demonstrated by these abnormal dream characters is my shadow, I'd rather not integrate it. I know my id is overactive and my superego can be somewhat judgmental. I believe I have found a balance though in my waking life. In my dreams my id needs to be checked. Though sometimes I feel as if I am in someone else's dream rather than my own. Could these abnormal dream characters perhaps be foreign ideas?

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Good question. The only way to know is to ask them. Good luck.

By the way.. shadow integration is hard work. It's very scary. And so very, very worth it.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

Love also has no affect on them. They seem to only want to wreak havoc. I looked up shadow integration, it seems interesting - though if the evil demonstrated by these abnormal dream characters is my shadow, I'd rather not integrate it. I know my id is overactive and my superego can be somewhat judgmental. I believe I have found a balance though in my waking life. In my dreams my id needs to be checked. Though sometimes I feel as if I am in someone else's dream rather than my own. Could these abnormal dream characters perhaps be foreign ideas?

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Maybe you are;)

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Maybe you are;)

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After last night.. all I can say is.. seconded.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

I've been lucid dreaming for a long time now. Despite this, I do not have 100% control of my dreams. I keep encountering abnormal dream characters that do their own thing. Some are benign, while others are actively evil. If it were up to me I would have completely different dreams than the ones I have. Sometimes it feels like I'm in someone else's dream.

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Let's say I meditate, I can acquire a certain lucidity in which I can observe my thoughts, how they arise and go spontaneously, how I do not have 100% control over them.

I think this is just a fact to be aware of. Our emotions, thoughts, impulses, dreams, although they arise from our psyche, if we ever feel we have 100% control over them, that's an illusion.

Dreams are not a fantasy (they are not structured as to be hallucinations of what you would want), they are rather a manifestation of your psyche (as it is).

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

The best way I can explain it is I become aware that I'm dreaming I change a few things and then there are these entities, like agents from the Matrix, that actively oppose me. In some dreams entities oppose me and some seem stronger than me, preventing me from changing things. An example: when distressed, I always resort to the Kamehameha technique from Dragon Ball. But when these entities are present it has no effect whatsoever.

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If there is a pattern of antagonists in your dreams, it may be worth asking "do you perceive a pattern of antagonists in your waking life (perceived or real)?"

If you say, "yeah, there are lots of antagonists in my waking life!" then, your dreams might just be a reflection of that. If you want, you can use that to think of strategies and see how you respond to these antagonists and how you would like to respond.

If you say, "not really, there aren't... but I guess, I am shy, and I do feel nervous around people. I often feel like I don't belong and that I am perceived negatively by people, kind of on a subconscious level," then again, it might be a reflection of that and you might want to explore how to change this perception.

Whatever the answer is, it's just simply natural to perceive a separation between ourselves and other people (it's kind of the assumption we make when calling them "other" people). It is only natural for this feeling to be felt in dreams and even amplified.

It is far more likely that these scenarios are arising from your psyche (whether because it's relevant to you, because you watch this type of media, because it's part of your primitive drives to notice antagonism, etc...) than they are likely to arise from entities (whose sole purpose is to antagonize you in your dreams). I think "integrating your shadow" as has been mentioned in this thread is exactly about this. Integrating means understanding it is a part of your psyche, not, another psyche, so you can take ownership of it. Otherwise, if you disown this part of yourself and explain it away with an explanation of entities, you are rendering yourself even more powerless before it.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

Perhaps my subconsciousness is in defiance to my consciousness, is this normal? It irks me not having full control. Do any of you have dreams where you have 100% control? If so, how did you get to that point? Thanks in advance for replies.

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I've never been 100% in control even once in my life (dreams or otherwise), but it's always been my person responding to this world with the best of my capabilities.

If you want more control, I suggest immersive daydreaming to you. Look it up. I use it a lot, to simply fantasize or to explore relevant scenarios with a metaphorical approach. It can be very satisfying. I like to put on some music to accompany me. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Maybe you are;)

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That's a very interesting thread, thank you. I think what sivason posted in that thread was spot on.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Let's say I meditate, I can acquire a certain lucidity in which I can observe my thoughts, how they arise and go spontaneously, how I do not have 100% control over them.

I think this is just a fact to be aware of. Our emotions, thoughts, impulses, dreams, although they arise from our psyche, if we ever feel we have 100% control over them, that's an illusion.

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While I agree with you that these things arise from our psyche, I disagree that 100% control of them is an illusion. I believe 100% can be attained, though it requires a great deal of work. I am nowhere near attaining it currently.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

If there is a pattern of antagonists in your dreams, it may be worth asking "do you perceive a pattern of antagonists in your waking life (perceived or real)?"

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I don't have any antagonists in my waking life.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I've never been 100% in control even once in my life (dreams or otherwise), but it's always been my person responding to this world with the best of my capabilities.

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I've had a few dreams in the past where I attained full control after gaining lucidity. They were amazing. Though, since then whenever I try to seize full control of a dream it's like there's something actively opposing me. Perhaps it is my id/shadow as you and MoonageDaydream have suggested. However, I have had many lucid dreams throughout the years and when it's my subconscious trying to tell me something it's a peaceful experience. The dreams I've been experiencing as of late have been violent, which leads me to believe I've been encountering outside entities.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

If you want more control, I suggest immersive daydreaming to you. Look it up. I use it a lot, to simply fantasize or to explore relevant scenarios with a metaphorical approach. It can be very satisfying. I like to put on some music to accompany me. Good luck!

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Immersive daydreaming sounds interesting. Sounds similar to the thought experiments performed by Einstein.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

While I agree with you that these things arise from our psyche, I disagree that 100% control of them is an illusion. I believe 100% can be attained, though it requires a great deal of work. I am nowhere near attaining it currently.

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Hmmm, interesting. I guess I'm ready to concede that to you, but I want to discuss it first. Do you know what I mean, how in a meditative state you can observe the nature of your thoughts, how they both arise and go spontaneously, on their own. (Similarly, you can observe how an original idea just appeared to you spontaneously).

My argument is that, yes, it is yours, but... it kind of appeared on its own. Sure, you are responsible for the exploration and the maintaining of certain experiences that allowed for the thought or idea, and also for deciding the thought or idea has value... but it's kind of more interesting than you being the first cause of the thought.

To have 100% control of a dream... Let's say I decide to appear on the Titanic and it happens without resistance... did I really choose for there to be three round windows in my field of view (as opposed to a different number, with a different shading and transparency), or did that detail arise on its own (true, from pathways that are part of your person, yes).

I guess what you mean by having 100% control, is that there is no resistance to your will?

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

I don't have any antagonists in my waking life.

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I'm surprised. I mean, I was not expecting there to be "villains" per say in your dream. But just people with their own goals that aren't the same as yours. Ex. Friend wants to do such activity while you want to do another activity. Bargaining for which place to go to. Certain professional pressures coming from a boss or your clients.

During any type of "conflict", however benign, the other person has an antagonist role (not to mean villainous). As in, they have different interests from yours. To continue with your topic of resistance, these people's interest are a factor of resistance on your interests. You wanted to do X but they want to do Y. Will you do neither, both, convince for X, fight for Y, do Z?

I will repeat this: "it's natural to perceive a separation between ourselves and other people (it's kind of the assumption we make when calling them "other" people). It is only natural for this feeling to be felt in dreams and even amplified".

I think you are concerned with resistance in your dreams, and the sense that this resistance is coming from these dream characters. I suggest considering that this -feeling-, as any feeling, is constructed in your mind and is useful and reasonable to experience in waking life. It's to be expected this feeling will be constructed in your mind during dreams.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

I've had a few dreams in the past where I attained full control after gaining lucidity. They were amazing. Though, since then whenever I try to seize full control of a dream it's like there's something actively opposing me.

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Perhaps, it's a matter of re-centering and giving it time? I think we often forget that while lucid dreaming, we are sleeping. It's not surprising, that we're not always 100%. Just think of waking up and the experience of resistance then.

I think it would be interesting to find strategies to counter this but it seems you are saying you already have mastered them and you have encountered a resistance that no technique can counter?

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

Perhaps it is my id/shadow as you and MoonageDaydream have suggested. However, I have had many lucid dreams throughout the years and when it's my subconscious trying to tell me something it's a peaceful experience. The dreams I've been experiencing as of late have been violent, which leads me to believe I've been encountering outside entities.

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About the id/shadow/subconscious, I think you are anthropomorphizing them. The experience of "talking with the subconscious", is not talking with an entity hidden within you. You can do it with immersive daydreaming too actually. It's a dialogue with yourself. You can actually play either role (the lost inquirer, the wise sage). The message attributed to the "subconscious" arose on its own just like any thought that you would attribute to yourself.

Why is good experiences with the (inquirer/sage) type inner dialogue negate the possibility of negative inner dialogues? (Ex. personal identity/social pressures; inquirer/fear, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

Immersive daydreaming sounds interesting. Sounds similar to the thought experiments performed by Einstein.

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Yes! It seems Einstein used it to communicate complicated physical theories. There are many uses!

Occipitalred, what are your thoughts on the book, "Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self by Robert Waggoner"?

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Hmmm, interesting. I guess I'm ready to concede that to you, but I want to discuss it first. Do you know what I mean, how in a meditative state you can observe the nature of your thoughts, how they both arise and go spontaneously, on their own. (Similarly, you can observe how an original idea just appeared to you spontaneously).

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I think I know what you mean. In deep meditation you have a profound awareness of your environment as well as your thoughts. I believe what you're saying is that thoughts kind of originate on their own and we merely assign value to them. I'm personally unsure if this is the case or not. I used to have random thoughts pop into my mind all the time during my waking life, but as I trained myself and thought about my thinking, my thoughts have become far less random.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

My argument is that, yes, it is yours, but... it kind of appeared on its own. Sure, you are responsible for the exploration and the maintaining of certain experiences that allowed for the thought or idea, and also for deciding the thought or idea has value... but it's kind of more interesting than you being the first cause of the thought.

To have 100% control of a dream... Let's say I decide to appear on the Titanic and it happens without resistance... did I really choose for there to be three round windows in my field of view (as opposed to a different number, with a different shading and transparency), or did that detail arise on its own (true, from pathways that are part of your person, yes).

I guess what you mean by having 100% control, is that there is no resistance to your will?

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This is very interesting. I suppose you are correct in stating that to have 100% control you would also be in control of every trivial detail in a dream. This in itself could pose as a problem when you spend more time thinking about the minor details of the dream than actually dreaming. I guess what I really meant when I said 100% control is not that exactly, but having control of the major details of the dream. Like if I were to want to have a car in a dream I wouldn't be concerned what model or make it was, just that it was a car. What I experience though is opposition to even getting a car of any kind.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I'm surprised. I mean, I was not expecting there to be "villains" per say in your dream. But just people with their own goals that aren't the same as yours. Ex. Friend wants to do such activity while you want to do another activity. Bargaining for which place to go to. Certain professional pressures coming from a boss or your clients.

During any type of "conflict", however benign, the other person has an antagonist role (not to mean villainous). As in, they have different interests from yours. To continue with your topic of resistance, these people's interest are a factor of resistance on your interests. You wanted to do X but they want to do Y. Will you do neither, both, convince for X, fight for Y, do Z?

I will repeat this: "it's natural to perceive a separation between ourselves and other people (it's kind of the assumption we make when calling them "other" people). It is only natural for this feeling to be felt in dreams and even amplified".

I think you are concerned with resistance in your dreams, and the sense that this resistance is coming from these dream characters. I suggest considering that this -feeling-, as any feeling, is constructed in your mind and is useful and reasonable to experience in waking life. It's to be expected this feeling will be constructed in your mind during dreams.

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You make some good points. I'm curious of what your philosophical beliefs are. I know that in solipsism only one's mind is sure to exist and other minds cannot be known to exist. Every one in the waking world could just be a part of me and merely seem to be separate, though this is unlikely. I "know" other people have their own wills by observing them and seeing that my will does not directly influence their wills. Likewise, in dreams some characters don't seem influenced by my will at all - so I believe they are not part of my psyche, though I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Perhaps, it's a matter of re-centering and giving it time? I think we often forget that while lucid dreaming, we are sleeping. It's not surprising, that we're not always 100%. Just think of waking up and the experience of resistance then.

I think it would be interesting to find strategies to counter this but it seems you are saying you already have mastered them and you have encountered a resistance that no technique can counter?

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I've mastered what works for me, but I am completely open to any new techniques. When I try to talk to these entities, they have nothing to say and attack me, as opposed to regular dream characters. Some of them I am able to overcome, others not so much.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

About the id/shadow/subconscious, I think you are anthropomorphizing them. The experience of "talking with the subconscious", is not talking with an entity hidden within you. You can do it with immersive daydreaming too actually. It's a dialogue with yourself. You can actually play either role (the lost inquirer, the wise sage). The message attributed to the "subconscious" arose on its own just like any thought that you would attribute to yourself.

Why is good experiences with the (inquirer/sage) type inner dialogue negate the possibility of negative inner dialogues? (Ex. personal identity/social pressures; inquirer/fear, etc.)



Yes! It seems Einstein used it to communicate complicated physical theories. There are many uses!

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Perhaps I am anthropomorphizing my subconsciousness a bit. I remain open to the possibility that these entities could ultimately be my mind playing tricks on me. I'm going to look more into immersive daydreaming and shadow integration. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Lang

Occipitalred, what are your thoughts on the book, "Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self by Robert Waggoner"?

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I enjoy reading people's experiences with dreams and that book is full of that. I guess you are right to bring it up, he kind of has this similar journey as Kixerus in the first third of the book. He discovers lucid dreaming, discovers his abilities in dreams... and then... discovers limitations. He comes to the conclusion that some DCs are independent sentient agents... and then that the Source of the dream is itself a sentient agent. Well, I do have thoughts about that.

If you are in a state to observe thoughts as they appear and go spontaneously... if you were then, after the fact, to wonder, "why did I have those specific thoughts?" Perhaps you could determine some of the factors and you could concede that you don't know all the factors. But overall, "I" am not the cause without a cause of my thoughts, emotions, and impulses. They sort of arise on their own... from the subconscious. This is the case for everything, (even things as simple as the impulse to go get a snack as you feel hungry).

But Robert Waggoner and many of us, we don't realize that. We only really are confronted with that in dreams when presented with such amazing dream content that we can't imagine being the cause without a cause that created it. For Waggoner, that's some non-complying DCs and fun mystical themed dreams with dissociated voices. For me, it's my second intentional lucid dream: I come across a tree and I am amazed by the detail. I touch a leaf and the surrealist moisture rolls onto my finger. I am in awe. A DC makes some vulgar commentary on the scene and distracts me. There was no doubt in this dream. I did not conceive and create these details like a meticulous artist. Yet, this sublime experience arose from the same place as the vulgar comments from the passerby (she said "my dog shat many seeds of these trees on her backyard, cool, huh?"). Another example is recently in an encounter with a DC with a dream guide role. I surrendered to him. He took control over the dream and led to a dream that was surprisingly very relevant to me (in terms of teaching me something). When I explained to a friend, they just missed the point of the dream. This is because the real value of the dream is MY interpretation. Like any spontaneous thought you feel you have or you feel some other entity within you has, it's all the same, and at the end, you interpret it. Anything a DC says, however surprising, is something you thought.

It's so hard to explain because it's so hard to understand intuitively... How can you imagine a person as a "thought form"? That's so hard to think of. I still can't do it satisfyingly! It's so easy to get immersed in a show, and live vicariously through fictional characters and form some unilateral relationship with them! And parasocial relationships with celebrities! We're just wired this way. I still don't know how to see past that illusion when meeting DCs. (Please help me with this. I'll be very grateful when I can).

But when Waggoner, Kixerus, or I encounter a DC and perceive them as a person... if we tell them "you are not real, I am dreaming!" doesn't it make sense that our belief/feeling that this is a person nonetheless will lead them to "surprisingly" deny it: "No, I am a real person!" and SHOCK we respond with "omg... I guess you are?" Then, this can only assure us that it will continue to happen... When Waggoner continues exploring asking the dream questions, he has already made the assumption that there is a second sentient agent present. Anything that ensues will concur with that belief, no surprise there.

About a second sentient agent within our mind, I do not think that goes against what we have discovered in neuroscience. Look up Split-Brain experiments. Sam Harris' book "Waking up: A guide to spirituality without religion" has helped me advance my conclusions on those types of experiments. So I think it's for sure possible that we have overlapping consciousnesses.... But the subconscious being conscious... it's possible. But it arise from the causal question...
Why is there a universe rather than not? What caused it? (Some answer gods, but then, why are there gods rather than not?)
Why is there consciousness rather than not?

The problem with answering these causal questions is if we "create" an answer from our imagination, there's no reason not to continue doing so eternally. In my dream example, who created that amazing tree??? My subconscious as a conscious agent? But in that case, what is their experience like? Do they also think like I do? If they meditate, can't they themselves come to the realization that all their thoughts and creative outbursts also arise spontaneously? Well it should be so! So, my enlightened subconscious would then wonder, where has the idea of the tree come from? Well, from the subconscious' subconscious obviously! And then we can imagine an infinite amount of layers of subconscious consciousnesses. My point is not that there can not be another sentient agent within us, just that, at some point, this game becomes irrelevant and must end somewhere... and it might really end with us. Our subconscious might well be... unconscious. It's so difficult to imagine what the subconscious is like, I still don't get it. But I think resolving this dilemma by treating the subconscious simply like another entity... is not a lucid solution (if not at least a sincere attempt at making sense of something incomprehensible).

I see I'm writing a lot, so I'll give it a break. But the rest of Wagonner's book is about personal experiences that hint at magic. That's all a lot of fun. But, he has a degree in psychology. He was president of an association for the study of dreams! Why am I reading personal stories? Why am I not reading a review of peer-reviewed studies on the matter? He tells a story of a woman who effortlessly asks her subconscious to heal her cancer in a dream and... the next day, she is completely healed. Obviously, he wrote this in his book to hint that our subconscious has the power to heal cancers... so where is that study? Why are we not living in a world where health is attended to by spiritual specialists? What this woman did was very basic. Actually, he does elaborate a list of important factors for success. They all seem reasonable and easy to practice. All in all, I believe he is sincere and that he shares many of my fantasies but I think it's clouding his mind.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

I think I know what you mean. In deep meditation you have a profound awareness of your environment as well as your thoughts. I believe what you're saying is that thoughts kind of originate on their own and we merely assign value to them. I'm personally unsure if this is the case or not. I used to have random thoughts pop into my mind all the time during my waking life, but as I trained myself and thought about my thinking, my thoughts have become far less random.

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Yes, you have some power to focus your attention here or there. Yes, you can focus your thoughts on a topic. But, just observe your thoughts (random or not). They're like birds flying in your field of vision and then out of it.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

This is very interesting. I suppose you are correct in stating that to have 100% control you would also be in control of every trivial detail in a dream. This in itself could pose as a problem when you spend more time thinking about the minor details of the dream than actually dreaming. I guess what I really meant when I said 100% control is not that exactly, but having control of the major details of the dream. Like if I were to want to have a car in a dream I wouldn't be concerned what model or make it was, just that it was a car. What I experience though is opposition to even getting a car of any kind.

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If we go back to the meditation analogy. It might be that sometimes, it's a bit harder to quiet our thoughts. They might arise more spontaneously and more randomly than other times. Especially since you are not necessarily meditating and quieting your mind in these dreams, but in the middle of sleep (with your mental faculties dulled) and in the middle of action. If I'm immersed in a narrative, my mind might be more creative and manifest diverse thoughts relevant to the context.

I think in those situations, if you have the faculties, observe the dream with an understanding that the contents of your consciousness are always in flux. They arise and go spontaneously, due to factors unknown and factors known. Then, refocus your intent.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

You make some good points. I'm curious of what your philosophical beliefs are. I know that in solipsism only one's mind is sure to exist and other minds cannot be known to exist. Every one in the waking world could just be a part of me and merely seem to be separate, though this is unlikely. I "know" other people have their own wills by observing them and seeing that my will does not directly influence their wills. Likewise, in dreams some characters don't seem influenced by my will at all - so I believe they are not part of my psyche, though I could be wrong.

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I tried to answer some of that in my reply to Lang and I wrote so much already so I'll hope it's enough, haha.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

I've mastered what works for me, but I am completely open to any new techniques. When I try to talk to these entities, they have nothing to say and attack me, as opposed to regular dream characters. Some of them I am able to overcome, others not so much.

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I think it's important to re-enter that state of observation. Otherwise, the minute you experience the feeling of resistance, it can easily amplify and render you powerless, especially if you start believing it.

I have not read the book in question but I wanted to make a passing comment on the following:

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I see I'm writing a lot, so I'll give it a break. But the rest of Wagonner's book is about personal experiences that hint at magic. That's all a lot of fun. But, he has a degree in psychology. He was president of an association for the study of dreams! Why am I reading personal stories? Why am I not reading a review of peer-reviewed studies on the matter? He tells a story of a woman who effortlessly asks her subconscious to heal her cancer in a dream and... the next day, she is completely healed. Obviously, he wrote this in his book to hint that our subconscious has the power to heal cancers... so where is that study? Why are we not living in a world where health is attended to by spiritual specialists? What this woman did was very basic. Actually, he does elaborate a list of important factors for success. They all seem reasonable and easy to practice. All in all, I believe he is sincere and that he shares many of my fantasies but I think it's clouding his mind.

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From the salesmanship point of view, appeals to rationality simply do not sell well. They do not inspire strong feelings such as awe or amazement in the same way that an appeal to emotion does. I think this is well known... While this may seem an unfair judgment of character from my part, as I do not know either the author or their story. I am not condemning the author for it, perhaps they were pushed into that narrative or even more simply, they found themselves enjoying that narrative and kept it going, in which case, good for them. Perhaps the author was tired of structured analytical thought devoid of magic and wonder in their life. There are so many reasons why a person may ultimately resort to an appeal to emotion. And I am not putting into question whether his feelings and reasoning are genuine or not. They most likely are.

I wanted to approach the quoted portion in a different sense however... Consider the following, which may not answer your questions in the quoted portion but may help you formulate your own answers, or more questions as it were.

When we are presented with the rewards of hard labour we still wish we could have simply achieved such a result as if by magic. Why? Things that come through hard work take that much more effort, that much more time... Why, oh why, did I spend hours and hours toiling to create a piece of artwork others might deem fantastic? I may feel I have wasted my time by instead not creating MANY pieces of artwork which are just good enough for me and not fantastic for others. That piece others find fantastic, I may find completely dissatisfying, in which case it only adds to the frustration of having spent many hours on it. Of course, I wish the masterpieces would come out effortlessly, but then, would they retain any meaning at all to me?

Or would these easily-achieved masterpieces simply be a way of temporarily quenching a never-ending creative frustration? Ultimately, we become attracted to instant gratification in a primitive sense and to be able to distance ourselves from this does not really come naturally as far as I can see. Every so often I hear stories of people who have 20 or 30 or 40 years of age on me, who yet yearn for instant gratification in a way I did not imagine possible for someone of their age. It makes me realise that I have been naive to think that certain feelings are restricted to young ages.

I think even when we have been disillusioned of such magical fantasies we are still attracted to them in some sense, perhaps it's hardwired in some way, but we may then know how to approach them with more caution in the future; just the same as with many aspects of the psyche that are natural but can be overcome to some degree, for instance; panic, fear, stress. It's possible that these aspects cannot truly be eliminated, that there will always be specific triggers, but our conscious response to them can be altered and trained to better deal with them.

And so, I think the last question is; are we ever immune to irrationality? No, I don't believe that's possible. As you yourself put it, thoughts and creative processes arise within us, ones that we did not predict would come over the threshold of conscious awareness, and they often come as surprises for the conscious mind; feelings work much the same way in the end.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

Love also has no affect on them. They seem to only want to wreak havoc. I looked up shadow integration, it seems interesting - though if the evil demonstrated by these abnormal dream characters is my shadow, I'd rather not integrate it. I know my id is overactive and my superego can be somewhat judgmental. I believe I have found a balance though in my waking life. In my dreams my id needs to be checked. Though sometimes I feel as if I am in someone else's dream rather than my own. Could these abnormal dream characters perhaps be foreign ideas?

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I find it curious that you specifically used the word "evil" to describe these characters' actions. If you want to consider them separate sentient entities in some sense, then if we entertain that thought, we could make the following observation; perhaps you are the tyrant to them. They may simply see you as an agent of chaos that wishes to change anything to your liking. This threatens their existence and way of life.

Put yourself in these characters' place. Imagine someone doing all of that to you, changing your reality all around you, is it evil? Would you want to stop them, like they try to stop you when you're doing this?

I have never attributed even the most dreadful nightmares of mine to be evil or their characters to be evil. I have seen a lot of crap in waking life, as I'm sure we all have, and despite having a somewhat religious background, I couldn't consider anyone to actually be evil; I might simply consider them to be screwed up beyond my understanding, either because of something that's happened to them in their own life or because they have not reached certain thresholds of consciousness, in regards to dealing with others. Or perhaps they have accepted that only they themselves matter, and others do not.

I am not suggesting that your actions are actually evil or anything. I am simply suggesting that if you believe that these characters are evil, they can also believe the same about you, especially if you are thinking of them as separate entities. A negative or inverse empathy between you and them, if you will.

Oh, I had a fun new dream last night. We were trespassing (there was simply a fence in our path) and as is often the case when doing something "wrong," a cop shows up. I wasn't lucid, yet, I spot the pattern thinking "Oh no, I have failed to be in the right state of mind in my dream as to avoid the manifestation of social expectations/authority. Now, the cop will antagonize us!" Then, surprise, the unexpected happens (and this never has happened before): the cop doesn't antagonize us, instead he kindly mocks my paranoia. He shows us the way and turns out, there was nothing wrong with going this way.

My internal belief that I should know it is meaningless to worry about breaking "laws" in a dream was stronger than my expectation that my crime --> police --> punishment for crime. The DC's actions are coherent with my subconscious attitude (in fact, that reactive thought I had seeing the cop arose as spontaneously as the cop's response, which was a natural continuation from the thought) and maintained the illusion of independence of the cop.

One last thing I wanted to add earlier is that about Waggoner finding that DCs can be unexpected and act opposite to expectation. DCs are not the only source of unexpected. I have this type of dream:
(1) I have this knowledge/belief about the dream, about what's happening (you know, in those dreams when you just know what's going on without having been told).
(2) Everything happening around me is clearly not coherent with my belief
(3) I maintain my belief (probably so that the dream can make sense to me). Yet, the dream continues as such.
This is a delusion (characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument). I have delusions in dreams once in a while and I think it's normal (because I am dreaming and my critical thinking is dolled). But yeah, these delusional dreams are another example that the unexpected is common in dreams. I don't think the unexpected is a proof that the dream experience has been contaminated by outer entities.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

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Originally Posted by Lang

Occipitalred, what are your thoughts on the book, "Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self by Robert Waggoner"?

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I enjoy reading people's experiences with dreams and that book is full of that. I guess you are right to bring it up, he kind of has this similar journey as Kixerus in the first third of the book. He discovers lucid dreaming, discovers his abilities in dreams... and then... discovers limitations. He comes to the conclusion that some DCs are independent sentient agents... and then that the Source of the dream is itself a sentient agent. Well, I do have thoughts about that.

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I should probably check that book out, it seems like it would be an interesting read.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

But when Waggoner, Kixerus, or I encounter a DC and perceive them as a person... if we tell them "you are not real, I am dreaming!" doesn't it make sense that our belief/feeling that this is a person nonetheless will lead them to "surprisingly" deny it: "No, I am a real person!" and SHOCK we respond with "omg... I guess you are?" Then, this can only assure us that it will continue to happen... When Waggoner continues exploring asking the dream questions, he has already made the assumption that there is a second sentient agent present. Anything that ensues will concur with that belief, no surprise there.

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An interesting perspective. I would agree that our expectations dictate what happens in dreams to an extent. In the above example the dreamer assuming that the dream character is sentient cause that dream character to behave in a way consistent with that belief. But, what happens when you take an unbiased approach and go in with no expectations? Are we even capable of being completely unbiased, or do we have innate biases built into us?

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Why is there a universe rather than not? What caused it? (Some answer gods, but then, why are there gods rather than not?) Why is there consciousness rather than not? The problem with answering these causal questions is if we "create" an answer from our imagination, there's no reason not to continue doing so eternally.

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Hmm. Do you think it is possible to learn new information in dreams or do you believe what we "learn" in dreams is merely an illusion? I've had a few precognitive dreams in the past. When I tried to force more is when I started encountering abnormal dream characters. Because of this I believe things can be learned in dreams - I would dream up an entire conversation with a friend for example and then have that entire conversation word for word while awake. I don't think I could guess their responses and reactions prior to actually having the conversation. I also had dreams where events would happen then wake up and later see events unfold in exactly the same manner.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

If we go back to the meditation analogy. It might be that sometimes, it's a bit harder to quiet our thoughts. They might arise more spontaneously and more randomly than other times. Especially since you are not necessarily meditating and quieting your mind in these dreams, but in the middle of sleep (with your mental faculties dulled) and in the middle of action. If I'm immersed in a narrative, my mind might be more creative and manifest diverse thoughts relevant to the context.

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I never really thought of it that way before. Before becoming lucid my mental faculties are dulled. Before becoming lucid I just go with the flow of the dream no matter how ridiculous it is without ever questioning it. However, after I become lucid I would think my mental faculties are working fine. I know my physical faculties are even heightened in dreams - I can see better than I can while awake.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I think it's important to re-enter that state of observation. Otherwise, the minute you experience the feeling of resistance, it can easily amplify and render you powerless, especially if you start believing it.

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I'll give this a shot next time it happens. I know that usually when I close my eyes while dreaming the dream dematerializes.

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Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

I find it curious that you specifically used the word "evil" to describe these characters' actions. If you want to consider them separate sentient entities in some sense, then if we entertain that thought, we could make the following observation; perhaps you are the tyrant to them. They may simply see you as an agent of chaos that wishes to change anything to your liking. This threatens their existence and way of life.

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For the most part I've just been searching for the truth in dreams. I'm not sure how that could be interpreted as evil, though in the past I can see where some of my actions could be considered such.

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Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

Put yourself in these characters' place. Imagine someone doing all of that to you, changing your reality all around you, is it evil? Would you want to stop them, like they try to stop you when you're doing this?

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I suppose you have a point. I've someone was warping reality around me in a way that adversely effected me I would consider them to be evil or at the very least misguided. But I guess that depends, a being capable of reality warping would probably be amoral - not intentionally causing harm.

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Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

I have never attributed even the most dreadful nightmares of mine to be evil or their characters to be evil. I have seen a lot of crap in waking life, as I'm sure we all have, and despite having a somewhat religious background, I couldn't consider anyone to actually be evil; I might simply consider them to be screwed up beyond my understanding, either because of something that's happened to them in their own life or because they have not reached certain thresholds of consciousness, in regards to dealing with others. Or perhaps they have accepted that only they themselves matter, and others do not.

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What about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot? If you don't consider anyone to be evil, what's your definition of evil? For me it's as simple as taking pleasure in someone else's pain.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

An interesting perspective. I would agree that our expectations dictate what happens in dreams to an extent. In the above example the dreamer assuming that the dream character is sentient cause that dream character to behave in a way consistent with that belief. But, what happens when you take an unbiased approach and go in with no expectations? Are we even capable of being completely unbiased, or do we have innate biases built into us?

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It's probably extremely difficult to be unbiased and the best approach is knowing your bias and sliding your judgement to balance the bias.

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Originally Posted by Kixerus

Hmm. Do you think it is possible to learn new information in dreams or do you believe what we "learn" in dreams is merely an illusion? I've had a few precognitive dreams in the past. When I tried to force more is when I started encountering abnormal dream characters. Because of this I believe things can be learned in dreams - I would dream up an entire conversation with a friend for example and then have that entire conversation word for word while awake. I don't think I could guess their responses and reactions prior to actually having the conversation. I also had dreams where events would happen then wake up and later see events unfold in exactly the same manner.

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I learn a lot from -interpreting- my dreams. I can also learn from interpreting tarot. It's not that dreams or tarot directly share new information but they provide a dynamic structure for self-reflection.

My godmother is a sincere medium and a few familial ghosts have guided her to pass on her knowledge to me as her "successor."

She really let's her "subconscious" speak. She will say anything that comes out, and she doesn't feel like it's herself speaking. She also doesn't necessarily understand what she sats (she prefers not to) so that it's really not her conscious self guiding the message. In other words, her experience is a lot like what we talked about the feeling of OUR thoughts coming from another personal entity. Both the feeling that the thought is our conscious thought or that it is a subconscious or external thought are illusions (a feeling our mind constructed to experience the world). When my godmother subtracts her conscious participation, she can harness more intuitive AND more random thoughts (she forfeits reflection).

Because I want to believe her, I want to agree with what she says, but often she is off the mark. Sometimes she'll call me saying she felt I was thinking about her and feeling a certain way. It's just not the case but I don't want to dissuade her from calling so I say "maybe." The truth is SHE thought about me but instead of identifying that the thought was hers, she indulges the illusion that the thought was mine.

In turn, many people have said her readings were very appropriate and useful but... being a medium is kind of like being a counselor (while indulging the feeling that the information doesn't come from oneself), obviously people who enjoy counselling will appreciate it.

The problem is if you don't understand this, if you believe it really comes from the "ether", you start believing all these random thoughts... it can be negative. Have fun, play with the feeling that consciousness content comes from you or from outside of you but remember it's in your mind.

About precognitive dreams, I've had a few very convincing ones. I don't know what to say. One thing that is sure is I could never have told which dreams would end up being "precognitive" (relevant) and none of them were useful at all had I known. And no one in the world in the history has been able to use this ability with factors controlled and under observation, so it's unlikely that I would get anything out of it other than indulging in my fantasies. I'll say, when I have a precognitive dream or the tarot cards align in elegant perfection with my life, I feel a sense of connectedness and alignment with the universe that I see no reason of denying myself. In those times, I relish in the feeling. But our mind is adept at finding connections (it's how we find meaning and learn) and we live only in the present, in the now: any memory can be false. I was the prime witness of an alleged assault and after giving my most objective side of the story and being shown the other reports (all different from one another), new memories tainted by those reports started forming in my mind, very insidiously, until only logic could barely keep me from accepting the other reports as fact. I don't know if you've ever witnessed the formation of false memories, but it's fascinating and scary. It's quite disturbing and I guess I had to surrender the certainty of my memories that day and live with a new disturbing memory. Anyway... if you ever want to believe in things that are not certain... uncertainty should be your idol. Do not believe certainly about anything that is uncertain. Do believe certainly in their uncertainty.

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Originally Posted by Lang

With dream control, it comes right down to Expectations. If you are expecting that character is going to overpower you, then they will. Just to put that out there that becoming aware that you are dreaming doesn't equal dream control.


Yeah, it feels strange to feel like you are in someone else's dream. It's even stranger to feel like you are in someone's body and feel like you seeing thing from their perspective.


BTW: Please take what I say about the subject with a grain of salt, I know there are probably people out there who know more and better about the subject than I do. I don't want to steer you in the wrong direction. I'm experienced in this but, it doesn't mean I think that I know everything. ;)

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:clap::clap::clap:

"No sailor can control the sea"

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

It's probably extremely difficult to be unbiased and the best approach is knowing your bias and sliding your judgement to balance the bias.
The problem is if you don't understand this, if you believe it really comes from the "ether", you start believing all these random thoughts... it can be negative. Have fun, play with the feeling that consciousness content comes from you or from outside of you but remember it's in your mind.

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How do you know for certain that it's in your mind? What if your godmother is being guided by an outside source, but that source is fallible? Has she ever told you anything that would have been impossible for her to know otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

About precognitive dreams, I've had a few very convincing ones. I don't know what to say. One thing that is sure is I could never have told which dreams would end up being "precognitive" (relevant) and none of them were useful at all had I known. And no one in the world in the history has been able to use this ability with factors controlled and under observation, so it's unlikely that I would get anything out of it other than indulging in my fantasies.

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I'm unsure at the moment if lucid dreaming is merely fantasizing. Because of precognitive dreams, I personally think dreams can relay to us information we aren't aware of. It's true that no one has been able to consistently do it under a controlled environment. But, is this because it's impossible or is it because it just hasn't happened yet? Most people I talk to don't believe in precognitive dreams, just as many don't even believe in lucid dreaming because they have never done it. What if we can incubate precognitive dreams like we incubate lucid dreams? I still have no idea how this can be done and this is merely speculation, but what if it is possible? I'm still trying to find away to to get around abnormal dream characters that interfere in my endeavors. I hope to get to the point where I can have predictive dreams and test them to see if they are true. Though, I'm unsure if I will ever reach that point myself - but maybe someone else could.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I was the prime witness of an alleged assault and after giving my most objective side of the story and being shown the other reports (all different from one another), new memories tainted by those reports started forming in my mind, very insidiously, until only logic could barely keep me from accepting the other reports as fact. I don't know if you've ever witnessed the formation of false memories, but it's fascinating and scary.

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Yes, I've seen people develop false memories. It is indeed very frightening. Sometimes I wonder how accurate the past is.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Anyway... if you ever want to believe in things that are not certain... uncertainty should be your idol. Do not believe certainly about anything that is uncertain. Do believe certainly in their uncertainty.

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I doubt a great deal of things. I would say I'm only certain about very few things. I know that in the past the sun has always risen in the east and set in the west. It's likely that this trend will continue, but it isn't guaranteed. What I know for certain is that 1 + 1 will always = 2. There are no exceptions to this. And when it comes to dreaming I know that I can use my five senses while asleep. However, I am unsure how reliable they are.

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Originally Posted by monsa199a

"No sailor can control the sea"

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Interesting. Though, I'd argue that the power a lucid dreamer has while dreaming is more akin to a god than a sailor. While awake we can't stop our hearts from beating or stop our hair from growing by merely thinking it. In dreams we can create things out of thin air.