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Like the title says.. who is the person who decides what you dream, when you are not lucid? I've been trying to grasp this but can't come to any other conclusion than that I am 2 persons. One is in the background when I am awake and I am in the background when the other guy dreams. Some people call it the subconscious, some call it a higher self or something like that. But who is it?
The thing is about dreaming and how your brain functions is that; we know very little about how it works. We know even less about dreams and sleep or even how/why we sleep.
That said, I guess it is also important to consider your personal beliefs? I don't know. It's like falling down a rabbit hole. ;)
I think of it this way: if we could only make a decision after first making a decision to make a decision, how would we be able to make any decisions? It must be possible for us to make decisions without us deciding to make those decisions. It must be instinctive for us to make decisions, just as it is instinctive for us to dream and breathe. We have some control over our decisions and our dreams and our breathing, but those processes are also based on our instincts, which I think are based on our DNA or how we've been conditioned to think.
I would say your higher self or source consciousness. I had a dream about this once.. the dream said "I am the picture all around you." Another dream, lucid, I am taken up into space and see the whole universe, the universe speaks, it says in a booming voice: "Bi am God." Bi, meaning two. Ego and everything else [source consciousness].Quote:
Originally Posted by kneejo
Explore for yourself and see what you think. Some of the answers are too hard to explain in words, I think.
The brain is complex and science has only just scratched the surface when it comes to understanding it. We’re not consciously aware of most of what are bodies are doing on a daily basis and it’s the same with the brain. I believe it’s all still connected and “one” even if we’re not aware of some of what’s happening in the background. I see dreaming as a little sneak peek behind that curtain. These processes aren’t just going on at night though, you can observe the random and spontaneous nature of the mind during day dreaming, whilst being creative and during meditation. You can see first hand how random thoughts and images seem to appear out of nowhere when you observe them like a spectator. When you really start thinking deeply about it you arrive at that big old question, “What actually is me? Who am I and am I really in control of the things I do?” It’s fascinating.
Do you mean you are like a vessel? Are we our own gods in a way if that is the case?
Think it might be even bolder to assume that our reality does not exist without our input or presence? That would imply that we puny humans are possessed with truly cosmic power -- I haven't seen much evidence of that either (and again, not for a lack of looking).
Isn't the paradox beyond ideas of fact vs. fiction the land where dreams begin?
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I'm going to move this to Beyond Dreaming. Since it is a topic about more than just dreaming.
Topic moved.
Humbledreamer - forum moderator
Hope you don't mind if I reply to this. I think (and this is just from my own experiences and from reading too many spiritual books) that we are all pieces of divine, connected to the source of everything, but also separated. I personally don't think our individual existence determines reality, but, all conscious beings do contribute to the formation of our world through the power of thought. I think we do posses cosmic power... more than we are aware of. I think our limited human intelligence is the main barrier. To quote the Bible, with an addition.. Be still, and know that I am God (and so are you).Quote:
Originally Posted by HumbleDreamer
Just thoughts. :)
Who or what?
We seem to be a well-defined self when we are awake. Our waking life identities feel rigid and our perspectives make us cognisant of a sensible world. But there is a stream of thinking that runs parallel to waking perception which competes for our attention and can lead to daydreaming or rumination; if we are mindful, however, we become conscious of this mental chatter for its true nature and thus less liable to its mesmerism.
When we sleep, that very same incessant stream of thinking is given a stronger voice, as it were, in the form of dreams—and it's most vivid during the REM stage. Despite its disjointed and, at times, abstract quality, which is often at odds with real life, we are completely taken in by the mental illusions the unfolding narrative is composed of—unless, of course, the dreamer is lucid which is the equivalent of being mindful in the waking state.
This empirical basis suggests that the dreamer is part of the dream itself or made of the same fabric, so to speak, hence why our identities and memories in ordinary dreams can be as disjointed or erroneous. It stands to reason, then, that to be lucid is to possess an identity identical to the waking self where real life memories come to the fore, i.e., the dreamer recognises the environment to be a dream because it doesn't tally with the real world—such as those WILD instances where the bedroom is recognised to be inaccurate because memory of what the real bedroom looks like is present.
It seems to me that personal identity is nothing but a bundle of thoughts and memories which is illuminated by consciousness. It's not surprising, then, that entire personalities can be eradicated through severe physical trauma to the head—where acute amnesia is incurred by a violent accident and an almost empty awareness remains to be filled by an entirely new personality as the brain forms new connections henceforward. The dreamer is defined by the ever-dreaming, living brain. It is the witness with no intrinsic identity or definition other than that which it identifies with which arises in consciousness from the deep unconscious.
'Who is aware?' Stephen LaBerge once asked. Nobody. There is just the awareness of this and that.
Thanks for the insights everyone. Really makes me think about this. My worldview is very biblical, meaning that I believe in the existence of one God, who says he lives inside us and all around us, and we live inside him. The reason we are alive is because we are connected to this Source. When our ego thinks, erroneously, that it is separate from Source, that's when we feel fear and sadness and abandonment and hatred and all the negatives. But this separation is an illusion. And our mind is strong enough to make a godless world a seeming reality. Hence why there are many people who don't believe.
When I dream I feel that I am doing the things that I actually want to do in waking life, but can't due to circumstances. My dream-self is not limited by any inhibitions and just does what it wants, because it has no fear. The only one who judges my dream-self is my ego, when I wake up and remember the things I did in the dream. It feels like the dream is the ultimate utopia, where everyone loves and knows everyone because we are all one, connected through source.
I have been attacked in dreams, which I have always interpreted as beings that are not of God coming into my dreamworld and trying to sabotage the utopia. My dream population has a defense force that's similar to a military. They help me fight the intruders. I don't think I am the creator of the dreamworld, or of these other beings. I think Source (Spirit) is the creator who uses my memories to build a world in which I can feel at home. I've had run-ins with other people who were lucid and visiting my dreams. These seemed to be peaceful people. I usually wake up right after this happens because it causes me to become lucid when these visitors ask me something or interact in another way. And I can't stay lucid for long without waking up.
After your answers and my own thinking about this I can say that I believe the dreamer is indeed me, just without the limits of ego and the physical world.
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I think my body is a vessel for my soul, which is spiritual in nature. When I sleep it feels like I leave my body and go to this other place, the dream world, which is a spiritual place. I believe our Creator made us in his image, so it stands to reason that we inherited the creative aspect of him as well. That's how we can create things. And yeah, if all 8 billion of us have the same mindset I'm sure we can change the world. But as it is now all of us are grouped up in divisions, each with their own interests and wishes for the world. It is a constant struggle to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by HumbleDreamer
This quote I don't know from the bible, have to look it up. But I have seen it in books about magic. I spent some time in mental hospitals years ago with psychosis. (I am diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia) I'm doing alright now so don't worry :) One night in that mental hospital I had a lot of disturbance in my mind. I closed my eyes and said with my inner voice: be still, for I am God. And then it was quiet in my mind. The next day one of the other patients came to me and asked: what does this mean? 'be still, for I am God' ? I didn't know how to answer that. But apparently he had heard my inner voice. I didn't say I said that because I wanted to see if he knew it was me. But he didn't clarify any further.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream
I've experienced many miraculous things that made me a firm believer but I'm still looking at what it all means and what my role in it all is. It does seem to be simple; we are all one, and we should strive to live like that. No human stands above any other human. And above us is only our creator God.
I hope I'm not preaching too much. I'm just trying to explain my point of view on things. You are all of course free to believe what you want. Or take from this what you want.
Yes! This is exactly what I was trying to articulate but you said it much better ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerlander
The dreamers expectations and beliefs also play heavily in the creation of dreams so really we’re more in control of how they form and play out then we may originally think.
I'm the dreamer in pretty much all my dreams. It is possible to have very vivid dreams, with a strong sense of self-awareness, and still not recognize that the present (dream) moment is in the dream state. I call these "vivid & present" dreams, "present" because "I" feel like I am really "there" in the moment. They're usually quite amazing.
I find it weird to see the dreamer as "a higher self" or "me, just without the limits of ego". I also don't like the duality of conscious vs subconscious.
I see the consciousness as a tip of a pyramid, the subconscious is the base, but it is still one pyramid, one me. The tip can't exist without the base but the base without the tip is significantly less than the whole thing.
The dreamer is me but with some things subtracted - large parts of memory, self-awareness (which I think is directly linked to memory), with some cognitive abilities decreased and little or no volitional control (executive abilities decreased). But there is still consciousness and enough of higher cognitive functions left for the dreamer to feel like me, with an indisputable continuity of my personality, emotions, and other things that make me me in waking life.
I am not spiritual at all but I am fascinated with the existence/emergence of consciousness and self-awareness from the neuroscience point of view.
The answer "who is the person who decides what you dream" could be simply answered through schema activation, but that's only the first step.
As Tiktaalik said, it is impossible to think about this more deeply without getting to the major philosophical questions.
Yesterday, after reading a lot on schemas and archetypes, I was cleaning my cat's litter box. I was thinking how she has a schema of this evening ritual in her head (I take a plastic bag, scoop the content of the litter box, take it outside to the bin, go with her for a short walk/stretch my leg outside, then go back and give her food) - she remembers the pattern and through the repetitions, it all gets connected and strong associations are created within the neural network. And this is how she understands the world.
And then, I realized, we are exactly the same. Our schemas are more complex and the connections we make can be more abstract, but that's it.
It makes me somewhat uncomfortable to think that we are just a bunch of learned patterns but it is also humbling.
Non-lucid dreams make it possible to observe this in its rawness and nakedness, without the meta-layer that we create over it.
We were discussing this recently on my thread about semi-lucid dreams and on the threads about the current dream research.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Normally, non-lucid dreams are typically characterized by reduced self-awareness, single-mindedness, altered reflective thinking, reduced volitional control, higher emotionality, altered mnemonic processes, and impaired episodic memory.
All these things are not binary and can be present on a spectrum. Which is the reason for all dreams somewhere between a completely non-lucid dream and a lucid dream, with many possible combinations/states of mind.
I've certainly had dreams which were "lucid" in everything except lucidity (state awareness). Like being in a magic fight, remembering 4 or 5 spells that I'd been using in LDs and incubating in daydreams, and voluntarily choosing which spells I want to cast.
I think it is possible to be self-aware a little bit but not enough to get lucid. Or maybe even enough but not remembering the goal to get lucid. Or just not bother with it because the dream is perfect as it is.
It really seems that there are two camps loosely forming in this thread - those that lean spiritual and those that lean science. I hope someday we will find that they are one and the same, in a fashion. "Magic's just science that we don't understand yet." - Arthur C. Clarke
But.. I also really love this quote from Dr. Strange.
“That doesn’t’ make any sense..”
“Not everything does. Not everything has to. Your intellect has taken you far in life, but it will take you no further.”
Some things aren't testable or measurable right now, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. After all, lucid dreaming didn't "exist" in the scientific community until the early experiments by Dr. Keith Hearne of eye movement in lucid dreams in the 1970s. Before that, there was a lot of argument whether or not lucid dreams were actually real at all; that perhaps people just dreamed that they were awake in their dreams.
Sounds a lot like our argument on whether or not spirituality, or the divine, actually exists. We may have expectations that it does, therefore our dreams affirm our expectations. But that doesn't disprove it's possibility. Just like lucid dreaming ... perhaps some day we will have more evidence of a true divine source.
I guess I'm in the spiritual camp. I've jumped down the rabbit hole years ago and haven't come back. :) Also.. a great quote by Carl Jung: “I don’t need to believe, I know”
Also, from Jung:
"In Jung’s view, the truth about God is complex because God is a mystery whose nature is beyond human comprehension. In trying to understand God, we each create our own image of him – and the image is never accurate. Jung recognised this about his own image of God:
Whatever I perceive from without or within is a representation or image… caused, as I rightly or wrongly assume, by a corresponding “real” object. But I have to admit that my subjective image is only grosso modo identical with the object…
our images are, as a rule, of something… The God-image is the expression of an underlying experience of something which I cannot attain to by intellectual means… (Jung 1959c)" (source)
A lot of this depends on the dreamer, of course. After a few years of practice, and actually even in the early years, I noticed a profound transformation of my dreams from wild & wacky & random mostly, to very sedate and mundane: me just hanging out with DCs in various locations. The earlier hours dreams are always sort of abstract, but those too went from really weird and random, to more organized, the more stable my waking mind became with mindfulness practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
The most common thing missing in my dreams is the memory of the dream state (of dreaming as a concept, and of my interest in them, and my lucid goals) and the goal to get lucid. I think this is pretty common across all dreamers. Just even the slightest hint of the concept of "dream" is enough to trigger lucidity -- once in a dream I was seated in a large outdoor amphitheater, and a young woman walked up the aisle, with the word "Dream" on her t-shirt, which triggered my lucidity and went on to have a nice LD.
This is where MILD, PM exercises, and goal setting comes really big into the picture: they trigger the "little pings" from the (subconscious?), "Psst! Hey, remember about dreaming and your goal to recognize the dream state!" The more we train our mind to produce these pings while awake, the more they occur in dream. This is one reason meditation is so powerful: the specific, repeated practice of bringing out mind repeatedly back to the present moment and to recognize distraction, is training out mind to produce these "pings." I like to include the "reflection" part as well, since bringing yourself to the present moment in a dream does not in itself promote lucidity, that requires the extra step of reflection and memory of goals.
My experience shows it's very common to be self-aware a LOT, and not to be state aware. Some people define self-awareness as being deeply intertwined with state awareness -- my dreams shows, to me, that this is not the case. This is why I do not define self-awareness as including state awareness.Quote:
I think it is possible to be self-aware a little bit but not enough to get lucid. Or maybe even enough but not remembering the goal to get lucid.
I think this is a major reason -- and one that Sageous :sageous: would agree with :). I loooove my epic non-lucids. In many ways, I prefer them to lucids. My epics are long, vivid, visually stunning, fun/interesting, and very stable. My LDs tend to be shorter and sometimes less stable (but I still love them, too).Quote:
Or just not bother with it because the dream is perfect as it is.
I suppose most subjects surrounding lucid dreaming appeal to both “camps”. I think the question itself isn’t strictly a “beyond dreaming” topic (though maybe it was intended to be) and can be interpreted either way. I think it’s great we can all share our differing beliefs and opinions in one place with respect :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream
I agree. I like this way of interpreting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
Yeah, It can be a hard pill to swallow but I think it’s fascinating and it doesn’t really detract from the human experience or the beauty of being alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoRose
I’ve had lots of experiences like this also. Am I correct in thinking “Lucid dreaming” is its own schema? Through journaling and performing RCs we’re building up the necessary associations needed to spot dream signs, and recognise the dream state. Then we utilise techniques such as WBTB and MILD to “activate” our lucid dream schema ready to return to sleep? If that was the case, is the “ping” you mentioned this at work?Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
I had an amazing dream a couple of nights ago. It was long, extremely vivid with an interesting and mostly coherent plot. At the end of it I became lucid and after a little messing around I woke up. On reflection the dream prior to becoming lucid was much more memorable and interesting then the moment I actually became lucid! I suppose they’re two very different experiences and both have their merits.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
I think it's a "beyond dreaming" topic just because the discussion on the higher self, whether it exists and if it creates dreams for us, etc. is spiritual in nature. The higher self and/or "source" is pretty much a type of god concept, of its own kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiktaalik
Yeah, this is a great community where we can talk about different beliefs safely.
This 'who is dreaming' question is essentially jnana yoga, except it applies while awake as well as while asleep. I don't accept the thesis of jnana yoga, that all the identities are 'false' except for the being consciousness-bliss-one. I think that the capacity to move or extend one's sense of identity is not a mistake, it is an important aspect of who we are, and that trying to stay in the 'enlightened' awareness is the spiritual equivalent of trying to stay stoned all the time. But in any case, whether I'm right about that or not, for me finding the ability to move the standpoint of identity is valuable, and is at the root of most of my 'beyond dreaming' experiences.
In regards to the 'higher self', I think that an important point to be aware of is that the higher self is also limited fallible, however greater it may be than our human personality. I can see the benefit of positing an ideal, eternal, perfect greater self, for the sake of realizing that to a greater degree. However, there's a sort of subconscious megalomania that commonly accompanies that, where a person can't recognize or accept flawed qualities of the 'higher self' for what they are, since the higher self is presumed to be beyond error. Then a person gets stuck on that, because it is very difficult to improve when following an ideal that's also limited.
The way I experience it, my higher self isn't really 'me', it is and it isn't, and this changes to some degree depending on where I'm thinking from, so to speak. 'Higher kin' is a phrase my own muse has used before when referring to it. This deeper identity has connections with other people also, it is theirs as well as mine. But it isn't completely monolithic or uniform. Particular arms of it, so to speak, are more strongly connected with some people than with others.
In the past, I would have one dream every night which did not seem to be made up on the fly. It seemed to be carefully planned ahead of time, and then played like a recording. These dreams were always lucid in the sense that I was aware that I was dreaming, but I would never attempt to interfere with the course of the dream. I almost never have these kinds of dreams now though, as has been discussed in other threads. My point is that there's something involved with the formation of the dream which is not the conscious me, but is not a stream of subconscious mental fluxuations either.
Something that annoyed me about Jung, is many of his beliefs clearly imply some kind of supernatural element, by which I mean factors that are outside of what is currently covered by scientific understanding. But on that question, he always maintained respectability in his field by acting as if everything can be explained by material considerations. For example, he wrote the preface for the Wilhelm/Baynes I Ching translation. The scientifically respectable Jung might say that the hexagram drawings are random, and we're benefitting by reading useful interpretations into them. His entire idea of synchronicity, which is a more general description of the same phenomena, would be explained the same way. However, if you look at specific examples, there's often no way that explanation works, there is clearly some 'action at a distance' which is not a matter of statistics, selective attention, and confirmation bias. He seemed to flip back and forth from one mindset to the other without trying to resolve the contradiction. I can see that there's an upside to leaving some ambiguity that way, but a downside is it also leads people to confuse mental dynamics which are actually distinct.
okay, I have some more speculation after pondering upon this subject ad dreaming a bit more. Disclaimer; I am going to use analogies from religion (christianity in my case), the occult and spirituality, because that's the beliefsystem I have. In no way am I trying to convert anyone. This spiritual side of life is running like a thread throughout my life and it explains some of the things I've experienced in waking life as well as in dreams. English is not my first language so I don't know many fancy words, but I'll try to convey my ideas. This is all speculation, what I think. I am in no means saying the these are fact.
As to the identity of the dreamer, I think it could be our soul. It is the spiritual aspect of our identities. As the occult and religions say 'As Above So Below', the spiritual is the origin of all ideas, and with it the dreamer is the originator of the ideas that come to us in waking life. The spiritual is fleeting, ever changing, but it is governed by the gods that people speak of. They created the physical world because it allows for solidifying of ideas. Making permanent the (originally) spiritual creation. Things that make me think this is true: my dreams seem to be slightly ahead of the waking world, technologically speaking. As if the ideas that we see manifested in waking life have their origin in the dreamworld, the latter being purely spiritual in nature. In dreams we can experience all the possibilities and in waking life we can choose which one of those possibilities becomes solid, manifested reality. So we do indeed create the physical world, but this is limited to having an idea and then working to create that idea in the physical.
I think when we are born a copy of our soul is put inside a physical body and we seem to forget where we came from. The only thing that reminds us is those dreams we have every night. I've recognized my dreamworld all through my life as being the same world that I go to every night and come back from when I wake up. But it is also ever present in the background when I am awake, even allowing me to daydream, where I connect to this dreamworld while being awake in the waking world. Another thing I noticed is that I am not alone while dreaming. In fact It has made me think that we all share this same dream world and our souls know each other from this life before our physical life.
Much of spirituality and occult teaching is about getting connected with that spiritual self that some call a higher self, and in doing so connecting with other souls, some of which are alive in physical bodies like myself. The spiritual part of our self is not bound to space/time because it originated in a world that existed before the creation of the physical universe. This is a conclusion based on my religion. Your mileage may vary if you believe something else. This is why the bible says that God knew you before you were born. You existed in this spiritual world before you were born in the physical. Much of occult teaching revolves around manifesting your will in the physical world. Some think that the highest goal is to become like God and create things out of nothingness and have full control over the physical world. I don't think it is limitless like that. This physical world has natural laws and we are limited to what we can make with our physical body. But out spiritual body is not limited. Our ideas are not limited. And so we can indeed do anything we want with the physical world, albeit through physical work. The sky is the limit, which means the spiritual is the limit, and it is indeed not limited, so the sky is the limit is an expression that gets a deeper meaning here.
Of course in the physical world we are limited by what other people will allow us to do and we are limited by the means we acquired. To create a physical object from source materials we need to develop a manufacturing process and tools to manipulate matter. I know of no humans who can create matter out of pure thought, it seems this is a power limited to God. Much of what occult practitioners call magic is not the manipulation of matter with the mind, but the manipulation of other minds (other people) to do their bidding, which is why I think God forbids these practices because they trample on the free will of other people. It is believed that the humans who are in control of much of our physical world have mastered this game of manipulation to such a level that they are practically shaping the world for us. Lots of money helps with this process. The ideas you learn in school, the ideas you get handed down from your parents, it can trap you into thinking that this material world is all there is and that we don't have any influence on it. Some even conclude because of this that there is no free will and everything 'just happens'. Try to do what you really want and see what is stopping you from achieving your goal.
My dreamself is eternal and I'm living a temporary life in a world that is limited by physical laws. At night I can escape into a world where there are no limits and everyone is connected and ideally of one mind. The physical self might also be a sort of back up for the dreamself, just as the dreamself is a kind of backup for the physical self. However, i've been killed many times in dreams, always to wake up in a living body. And then the next time I sleep my dreamself is restored to what I know it to be.
The purpose of many religions and spiritual teachings is to realize that we are all connected through this spiritual part of ourselves. And so ideally we want the physical life to reflect the spiritual, again, as above to below. Some people can't live with this idea that they are always connected to everyone else. That our private lives are truly not private at all. The idea that all is material is an illusion that many happily believe in because they choose to be alone. I myself have caught this idea that I wanted to be alone sometimes. But then I realize the spiritual world knows all about me through my dreams and perhaps by observing me in the physical. So it's alright. I don't have to fear being watched. Because I was like a child not knowing better. Now that I know better I have reason to behave in private. Out of shame, although I know I should not be ashamed for myself because we all do these things in private. I'm no better or worse than anyone else.
I know that some people don't dream. My father told me that he didn't dream. All was black when he went to bed. So later I had a dream about that. The people in the dreamworld showed me a building where dreambodies were stored from what it looks like with bandages bound around their heads. The realization came to me that my father was being stored like that. Unable to dream. After his death I have seen him in my dreams and the realization came to me that he was released from this bondage. Why some people are bound, I don't know. I haven't figured that one out yet.
From what I can gather, we dream to experience our original state of being and be reminded of it. And we have a physical body because it can manifest things in a physical world which are permanent. As opposed to the world of dreams which has no solidity and is changed by every thought we have. Imagine if you will that you are a purely spiritual being in a spiritual world. If you hate someone a mere thought can destroy them. In the physical world however it is much harder to hurt others. I can have a hateful thought, but that won't damage anyone's body directly. I have to put in real physical effort to kill someone. Although it happens by accident sometimes which is unfortunate. Our temporary physical life allows us to train our mind to be less destructive and more loving. In preparation for an eternal life where controlling our thoughts is required, because otherwise we keep destroying each other. This is why God says that if you hate someone you are a murderer. If the limitations of the physical world were not in place you would be able to murder with a thought. Only the people who change themselves in waking life into a less destructive being are allowed entry into heaven. The rest has to go through a learning process called purgatory or simply end up in hell if they never changed their destructive ways. This way souls are being shaped into beings that eventually can live together in a spiritual place where death and suffering does not exist. This way the wheat gets separated from the chaff. This is why it is important to follow a peaceful religion or at least work on yourself to become more peaceful and loving towards each other. Because if we choose to remain destructive we end up in a place with all the other destructive people and end up killing each other for the rest of eternity.
I need some coffee lol. Just woke up. Just wanted to share all of this. Again, not intended to convert anyone. Just me trying to make sense of life from my perspective.
Oh i haven't talked about telepathy and such but I think that would be possible if we can connect our spirit to that of others. In the same manner all kinds of manipulations can take place. My mind could control another persons mind directly and if that person is not aware of their spiritual mind they would never know why they do the things they do. This is the dark side of this realization. And it may explain why some people are bound. They discovered this technique and did some terrible things with it, so the higher ups bound them for the safety of others.
A few days after typing this last response I came to realize that I don't know if I can say that I'm an eternal spirit living a temporary life in the flesh. This would seem to contradict with the christian creation story which says that we were created out of dust and received a spirit of life. But then again perhaps my interpretation holds true as well, it just isn't a very well understood topic.
Are dreams real, even if they are not experienced with lucidity?
I mean all dreams, lucid or not are both real and not real, it depends how you apply the definition of the word.
If you mean real by the persistent waking reality that we experience outside of the dream state, then no. As far as modern science is concerned dreams have no perceivable impact on the waking world. (You could be pedantic and say they do in the sense of possibly affecting your brain, not any major effects.) If by real you mean real by the standards of your personal consciousness, perceptions and memories, then yes, dreams are very real.
A lucid dream might feel more realistic, in that through using dream stabilization or simply being lucid in the dream and able to choose how to interact with it can make the experience more vivid and lifelike.
Thanks.
Yes - I suspect non-lucid dreams are just as real as lucid ones.
Subjectively, anything which one experiences can be considered to being real.
One audio book I listened to described a study that was done that included weight lifters becoming lucid and working out in there lucid dreams which led to a 13% increase in muscle mass in waking life, some sports men and women use lucid dream to perfect movements or skills which translate to physical improvement and confidence.
Lucid dreaming is also being used to heal mental disorders by some psychiatrists so even if you conclude dreams aren’t real there is a cross over into the real world.
Spoiler for Lucid dream:
I am not asking whether lucid dreaming is real or not. I am being specific to non-lucid dreaming re the OPQ.
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Originally Posted by VVilliam
Dreams are a universal human experience that may be described as a state of consciousness characterized by sensory, cognitive, and emotional occurrences during sleep.
Non-lucid Dreams may be characterized by primary consciousness, bizarreness, and cognitive deficits, lacking metacognition.
I can go on, but this is like jumping down a rabbit hole because as much research on neurology or psychology, we are only scratching the surface of how our brain truly works. But, suspect that Non-lucid is real but, real all dreams are hallucinations.. (imo)
Topic moved...
~L
:lol:
Thanks for moving this thread to the right spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lang
My question is open to anyone.
My answer currently is that anything I experience is real, whether it is the experience of lucid dreaming, or just normal dreaming where I have been interacting even that I have snippets of having consciously done so.
Those snippets are real.
What we call "Dreaming" appears to be the way in which one interacts with the vaster aspect of our self - our subconscious "team mates" who are doing things behind the scenes and we can connect with these in many ways as well as dreams... such as lucid dreaming, OBE, NDE, Certain plant ingestion, Chemicals, Theism, Message Boards, Message Generation systems, et al and none are more relevant or any better or different in achieving connection and interaction with the Dream Team than any other. ALL are valid in relation to anyone's subjective reality experience.
Hallucinations? It has not been established that consciousness solely emerges from brains. We do not even know if we exist within a created thing or not let alone be able to make positive claims that we and our experience is only a hallucination we call 'real' because we are experiencing it as such.
Obviously in relation to dreaming of any type, such can be seen [re opinion] through nontheist filters as well as theistic ones.
I am open to either interpretation, but based upon the evidence so far, I am more inclined toward the notion we are experiencing real things, be they in dreamland or wakeland, makes no difference. {also imo}
https://i.imgur.com/9O6k6s5.png
Yeah, facts and speculation have to be divided. We all really looking at uncarted areas HERE.
The heck with it, I'm merging this one with one that is already started in Beyond Lucid dreaming....
Merged.
~L
DV Moderator.
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Edited : I just notice that I said the same thing again.... Wow..
Just because I have had some non-lucid dreams (Not reality shifting) about viewing different realities at the same time or experiencing of what is like to be a baby again doesn't mean that is readily possible to measure or know if it is real or not. What we do know that we can enjoy the mystery of an Non-lucid how ever it comes. (imo)
And with this I would reality check!
Thanks again for merging the topics...I see the topic is nigh on a year old...but scanning the prior posts can see why you decided to merge them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lang
My interest in dreams and subsequent question about reality come through my engaging with the Message Generating process I have been involved with and sharing on this site for the last six or more months.
There has been quite a bit of mentioning of dreaming re those messages, and I have just published the month of March mention of dreaming - in my Dream Journal blog... https://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/vvi...ch-2022-94859/
As can be seen therein, the overall impression is that these things are happening with or without our conscious awareness, and it is my assumption that those involving themselves in dream-related/alternative experience practices are attempting to understand the true nature of said experiences.
I do think that there is a mutual meeting-ground between those who think consciousness is emergent of brain function and those who think there is more to it than that...
Whatever absurdity is happening around us in dream, we are still real (or at least, as real as "we" can be).
I think this is true regardless of whether or not we are lucid. It's sort of like being sober vs. being drunk. We're still us, but we're a lot smarter when we're sober. ;) In this way, we're a lot more conscious when we're lucid, but we're still a version of us when we're not. I'm always happy when I do something good in a non-lucid dream. I feel like I must be doing really well on a subconscious level. It seems to take forever for newer ways of doing things to ingrain themselves into our brains enough to show up in our non-lucid state.
So I think that WE are real inside a dream, despite a dream being real or not.
Are dreams real in general? I think so. In their own way - although that way may be different than waking life. A better question might be - how real is waking life? I don't know. And how about What is real? What determines what real is?
I think, when we dream, we're experiencing something similar to the after-life. I think that our dream guides can be just as real as any other person in waking life. Also, some dreams are precognitive - and that's real on a different level.
This appears to be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilary
I think this is limited by how we self identify.Quote:
(or at least, as real as "we" can be).
I feel that having snippets of dreams and working with those in my awakened state are enough for me because they are like hints that I am being no different of personality regardless of whether awake or dreaming.Quote:
I think this is true regardless of whether or not we are lucid. It's sort of like being sober vs. being drunk. We're still us, but we're a lot smarter when we're sober. ;) In this way, we're a lot more conscious when we're lucid, but we're still a version of us when we're not. I'm always happy when I do something good in a non-lucid dream. I feel like I must be doing really well on a subconscious level. It seems to take forever for newer ways of doing things to ingrain themselves into our brains enough to show up in our non-lucid state.
This perhaps explains the fundamental reality - that we are the real thing and even this universe is no more real than anything else we experience - because it is the experiencer who is always the fundamentally real thing within any and all experience.Quote:
So I think that WE are real inside a dream, despite a dream being real or not.
Quote:
Are dreams real in general? I think so. In their own way - although that way may be different than waking life. A better question might be - how real is waking life? I don't know. And how about What is real? What determines what real is?
That which is real is also that which determines what real is.
We call it "consciousness"
Yes - what we call 'dreaming' is known to be real through lucid interaction with it.Quote:
I think, when we dream, we're experiencing something similar to the after-life. I think that our dream guides can be just as real as any other person in waking life. Also, some dreams are precognitive - and that's real on a different level.
In that, the next level ["afterlife" as it is referred to] is simply changing ones dominant reality experience...
Lucid Dreaming et al are indicators that whatever the experience - the experience is 'made real' through the real thing which is having the experience - and without consciousness, what experience can be had, let alone be thought of as 'real'?
By the way, I'm glad that you join the discussion, VVilliam. :)
That is why I would keep on writing the non-lucid ones in your DJ. What is even more important is sleep and recording your sleep cycle... Then you would have a better understanding of who you are and why you dream how you dream with all the messed up dream logic out there. Self- reflection is important also understanding yourself as a person.
I think that non-lucid dreams are just as important as Lucid dreams. However, I think it is wise not getting too wrapped up in if a dreams are real or not. (imo)
Always happy to engage with things which are interesting to me Lang :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lang
I work with my comlist-journal the most as it provides me with the best insights, even re the purpose of dreams.Quote:
That is why I would keep on writing the non-lucid ones in your DJ.
Again, insight into 'who I am' is obtained through journalizing and using the journal as a device re Generating Messages. Experience [dreams] are more the stage where the expressions of who I am can be externalized.Quote:
What is even more important is sleep and recording your sleep cycle... Then you would have a better understanding of who you are and why you dream how you dream with all the messed up dream logic out there. Self- reflection is important also understanding yourself as a person.
I am okay with identifying dreams/all manner of alternate experience] as real experience.Quote:
I think that non-lucid dreams are just as important as Lucid dreams. However, I think it is wise not getting too wrapped up in if a dreams are real or not. (imo)