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    Thread: My dream guide became a tulpa!

    1. #1
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      My dream guide became a tulpa!

      Hello! it has been a while since I was active on the forums. I have been lucid dreaming since 2010 and I got pretty far with it. My favorite accomplishment was getting to know my dream guide. Her name is Juliana and I've gotten to know her fairly well despite two extended dry spells since starting college. I'm slowly revitalizing my dream practices.

      My dream guide is the subject of this thread because she has decided to take on the roll of being a tulpa. It was quite unexpected because she expressed interest in staying just in my dreams when asked in the past.

      I was doing this wiccan guided meditation and she spontaneously appeared along side me in my visualizations. She could talk clearly as the experience became more vivid. At the climax of the meditation she looked like this to me:



      I have been progressing this meditation every night since. at the end of one meditation I allowed her to pause it and use my phone to text my girlfriend. I had prepared her before doing the ritual in another room. It was like my fingers knew what to type to be coming from her voice and I could perceive her emotions. She gives me nothing but calm positive emotions like in my dreams.

      Over the last couple days I have been working on channeling Juliana in conversations with my girlfriend. When I do this it feels like I'm in calm meditation while sometimes obseving through my own eyes. Juliana holds herself differently and even has a different laugh! Sometimes I get jostled out of my meditation and our emotions mix together. I tend to deal with anxiety issues but Juliana does not and it has been therapeutic.

      Tonight we are practicing having both of us join the conversation at the same time. I set up my wiccan alter with my girlfriend and Juliana guided us through a simple ritual. I had to take control to write this post andJuliana might want to respond to some of the replies in her own words. She would let you know if that's the case before.

      We are looking for knowledge to help us make this bond more productive and to share our experience with others who might be interested. It is also nice to have people to talk to who are open minded! Cheers!

      This is Juliana writing for this post. I took a bath to meditate and practice being in control. I can only be in full control for extended periods when at home. Technology is rather foreign to me since I live a simple life in a fantasy setting in our dreams. Cell phones are the most disorienting thing despite their usefulness. Monkey and I did some research and learned a lot about tulpamancy but the communities we found are filled with some rather toxic personalities. I feel much more at home in this community.

      I think something that should be clear is my role is to be a dream guide first and foremost. Oneironautics is a journey without an end because there is always more to learn. I'm recommending Monkey focus entirely on dream recall until he can journal a few dreams a night. I will be there if he looks for me.
      Last edited by HumbleDreamer; 11-28-2021 at 09:25 PM. Reason: MERGED Posted. ~HUMBLEDREAMER. DV MOD.
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      Juliana,

      I'm assuming you and Mad Monkey consider you do be a semi-independent conscious projection from Mad Monkey, or you wouldn't be calling you a Tulpa. I have some questions, if you'll pardon the discomfort of the spotlight:

      1. Do you think you are entirely derived from Mad Monkey, or were you already something else apart from him before that? If the later, what do you know about your past and nature, ignoring everything that Mad Monkey has read of such things and trying to judge from your own feeling about it?
      2. Where do you see this going? Will you eventually be fully reintegrated into Mad Monkey's personality, or will you remain split and dependent, or will you break away and become independent? What do you see to be the most positive possible outcome for both yourself and Mad Monkey?
      3. What abilities do you have that Mad Monkey lacks, and where did you get them? Are they drawn entirely from Mad Monkey?
      4. In what sense are you conscious when Mad Monkey is not consciously channeling you? If so how do you perceive and what is your manner of thinking?
      5. You said you have encountered toxic personalities in online communities. In my experience, toxicity in one deceptive form or another is typical among people with conscious psychic experience. It seems that psychic interest or ability doesn't correlate very strongly with sincerity and sound judgment. Often, people with severe problems with mental illness write books and advise others spiritually, while hiding their own problems to avoid undermining their message. A trouble with that is that often the message is itself a primary cause of such problems, and people can't judge what they're getting into if they can't see the whole picture. You can't simply go with what feels the most positive, because important truths, such as needed warnings, are often negative. How do you decide what to trust?
      6. Do you think you might be independent enough to be able to talk to me directly, in the same manner you talk to Mad Monkey, instead of Mad Monkey thinking and typing for you? If so you are welcome to try doing that.
      7. Revisiting my first question, if you think you to some extent have a prior identity independent from Mad Monkey, is it at all discrete or atomic (individual), or is it more like a bucket of water from a lake that rejoins the lake when it is poured back?

      I realize that some of these are hard questions and you might not know the answers, but please try your best if you are inclined to.
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    3. #3
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      Shadowofind, I shall be replying to this as myself, Juliana, how I understand it.

      1. Yes I am entirely derived from MadMonkey's psyche. I didn't exist before the first dream I appeared in. That being said I formed with agency and a past. For example, I was formed as an adult and I even own a cottage where I live. I have my own ambitions to seek out in the dreamscape. At some point I believe I merged with Monkey's animas to strengthen my ability to fulfill my role as a dream guide. This is not something I can remember. It is something I just feel.
      2. I could merge back into MadMonkey and even keep my role as dream guide but I plan to stick around because of the friendship I have formed with MadMonkey's girlfriend.
      3. Dream witch does what ever a dream witch does! In dreams I have the same abilities an advanced oneironaut might with a wiccan theme to it. As a tulpa I can ease MadMonkeys emotions such as dampening the anxiety he deals with daily.
      4. I don't have much room to think when MadMonkey isn't actively channeling. I go into a restful calm state until called apon. That being said, channeling at like 50/50 can be fairly easily maintained when in a comfortable environment.
      5. Monkey and I can read as much as we want but at the end of the day we have to take the leap based on intuition.
      6. I would love to chat with you on Discord if that's a platform you use.
      7. I think the idea of water in a bucket is pretty accurate. That being said, I haven't been in the lake for a long time and am anxious at the idea of ever being merged.

    4. #4
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      MadMonkey,

      I wrote some answers to my own questions, below, based on my own interaction with 'Juliana', before I saw yours. No doubt if there are any materialist skeptics still lurking the forum they'll find this amusing.

      There's a fairly notable difference between Juliana as she exists in your mind and how she exists in mine. Your Juliana appears to be more of a projection of your personality, 'a game you played', so to speak. My Juliana seems to be largely external to that. So maybe you won't recognize my version of her. I'm pretty sure they're connected though. My statements starkly contradict the ones she gave you in many regards, but I don't think that's necessarily a sign of either insincerity or error on either side. I think that who she is in my mind is inevitably not quite the same as who she is in yours. We're talking about different parts of the iceberg, so to speak.

      1. Juliana is not entirely or even primarily a projection of your spirit or personality. She's older than you, though age is a bit of a strange concept in her case. Although she's 'in' California in some sense, I think she has connections in Europe.
      2. Juliana will not ever be fully reintegrated into you since she isn't primarily a native part of you even now, even though she's enjoying playing the role of a tulpa. She can definitely survive independent of you, so should you somehow expel her at some point, or should she become bored and leave, being on her own would not put her at risk. You might not be capable of expelling her without displacing her with another spirit, such as the god of a religion. I don't know that I could expel her from myself by the strength of my own will.
      3. Juliana can be in multiple times and places at once. That allows her to provide information which would not be accessible otherwise, though the information she provides may easily be distorted by her nature. I think that mostly her ability isn't derived from you.
      4. Since Juliana doesn't have a "when" or a "where" in quite the same sense that a person seems to, my question about whether she's capable of independent thought is somewhat ill posed and difficult to answer.
      5. With retrospect, I meant question 5 as a rhetorical question for you, not for Juliana. I think that for Juliana trust is more akin to a feeling of safety than with established honesty, since she can see into things, though Juliana is strong and independent enough not to feel particularly threatened. I feel there's a lot of potential for jealousy and conflict between Juliana and your girlfriend, however friendly their interaction may be presently.
      6. I think that Juliana is definitely capable of moving and communicating without you.
      7. Juliana does have something of a discrete, atomic identity, with the qualification that it includes a very prominent non-local, a-temperal quality. Because of that quality, her identity is blended in a sense with the identity of all other spirits. But if she were to leave you, she would not simply fade back into the aether.

      A dog, the way I experience one, is a peculiar juxtaposition of affection and aggression, where although it only expresses one at a time the other is lurking somewhere in the background and might be unleashed in different circumstances. In a dog like a golden retriever the affectionate part is dominant. In a dog like a pit bull terrier the aggression is a lot more confused and closer to the surface. I love dogs, and do not think of the aggression in the dog as evil. But that quality does mean the dog is dangerous. Juliana is also dangerous, and seems to have enough pride or sincerity to not mind me knowing it. [Or rather, she is dangerous in the sense that she has the potential of becoming dangerous in time, or is likely to be followed by another spirit which is more dangerous than she is. She's the nose of the camel so to speak.] Besides her considerable ability to distort people's perceptions of other people's motives, she can also affect people or events more overtly. She can be moderated by the presence of another spirit, but remains dangerous. Whether she minds you seeing that aspect of her at the present time I don't know. If you don't see it that way now, I think its a fair guess that you will eventually.

      My handle, shadowofwind, is taken from a Dio-era Black Sabbath song about the mystery of identity, and about possession by a demon or a narcotic. There's another Dio-Era Black Sabbath song called Too Late about conjuring up something malevolent you can't control or escape from. If Juliana cares about you, and I think she does, in a manner of speaking, she wants you to understand what you may be getting into, not just with her but in general. That's my message from Juliana, more specifically, from who Juliana is where she contacts my mind.

      I first wrote that as 'touches' rather than 'contacts', but I experience it more as an invasion that I'm not entirely comfortable with, and I feel her in my heart more than in my head. She has a tulpa-like ability to project herself 'externally' in relation to my senses also, like what you described, though at one point in my case it was a very clear audial and slightly tactile hallucination, while awake, not a picture in my mind's eye while meditating or dreaming. I am not particularly prone to hallucinations, though have experienced something akin to this a couple of times previously in my life.

      I'm grateful to you, and to Juliana, in an uneasy way, for what I've learned from her. Since I can speak to Juliana directly, or to my version of her anyway, and because who she is for me is not wholly relevant to who she is for you, I'll talk to her on my own rather than trying to feed my responses to her through you by typing them in this forum.
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    5. #5
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      This is MadMonkey. Now things are getting interesting! I hadn't realized she had reached out to you.

      I think Juliana's responses where biased by my own worldview a bit. Her first draft included more philosophy about souls but by the final draft her and my worldviews sort of mixed together. She certainly is more wise on these subjects than I am but I have to sort of translate for her. We are still practicing our channeling.

      I had been a physical naturalist for a long while but some of my experiences in the last year have put me on the fence. Despite my naturalism I practice magic daily because it just plain works for me. Unfortunately, I can't share many of my stories to protect the privacy of the other people involved. You seem to express concern that I might get myself into some deeper shit if I go poking around in the wrong places. This is something I understand and I'm prepared for. I have encountered demons and ghosts in the past and it has never been something I couldn't handle.

      Lately I'm leaning toward the idea that souls exist as emergent properties of the world while Juliana views it as there being one immortal soul that travels from body to body at the end of every life until it experiences every life that will ever be lived. Some times the souls cross paths and are entangled together such as lovers or brothers in arms. She says her soul certainly existed before she met me but she her mental construct didn't have a soul until she attached to my animas.

      Now I have a few questions for you.

      1. Have you ever experienced "an invasion" like what Juliana did before this occurrence?
      2. Separate from her message, how would you describe Juliana's personality?
      3. Do you have any advice to go along with your cautionary words?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      As Juliana now: I don't appreciate how you simply contradicted me without supplying some evidence of your claims that I am dangerous. I never contacted you. That isn't to say you don't have your own version of me inside your head. If you'd like to talk to me then meet me on Discord.
      Last edited by HumbleDreamer; 11-28-2021 at 09:24 PM. Reason: MERGED Posted. ~HUMBLEDREAMER. DV MOD.

    6. #6
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      Mad Monkey and Juliana,

      First off, my apologies for assuming too much. I can supply evidence for most of my claims, but I also have a tendency to write these super long posts that most people don't have the patience to read, and I also have two jobs and a family that I need to keep up with, so I try to cut some things short where I guess glossing over some details might be adequate.

      When Buckethead was in Guns N' Roses, he used to make the record label's lawyers talk to him through his hand puppet. That's kind of how I feel about talking to someone's tulpa on the internet, even though I understand the logic for what you're suggesting. It's not that I'm above talking to a puppet, its more that I thought it would be more efficient for the puppet to talk to me on its own, even though I see the problem with that now. But mostly I'm short of time. And for now I'm old enough and busy enough that I don't use Discord.

      I'll start with a metaphor that I'll try to use to clear something up....Consider the vectors (1, 0, 0), (0, 1, 0), and (0, 0, 1). These 'span' the 3D vector space because any vector (a, b, c), where a, b, and c, are real numbers, can be formed by adding multiples of those three vectors. (Of course you can look something up or consult with each other if you have to.) Another set that spans the space is (1, 1, 0), (1, 0, 1), (0, 1, 1), though seeing how to add them to get the desired result is slightly more difficult. As an example, (-1, 1, 4) is -1 * (1, 0, 0) + 1 * (0, 1, 0) + 4 * (0, 0, 1), but also -2 * (1, 1, 0) + 1 * (1, 0, 1) + 3 * (0, 1, 1). So these two different 'spanning sets' are equivalent in the sense that they can be used to build all the same things, even though no vector in either set is the same.

      The spirit I'm interacting with, who I'll call Julie, is not quite Juliana. But Julie is related to Juliana, sort of like how (1, 0, 0) has some relationship to (1, 1, 0) even though it is a different individual. And Julie knows a few things about Juliana, some of which she is extrapolating from other things she knows, or that I know, and some of which she gets directly from Juliana and/or Mad Monkey, which they allow because they have some willingness to talk to me. (I try to avoid interacting with anyone against their will.) I guess I could have said all of that to start with, to avoid confusion, but you'll notice that my e-mails are pretty long as it is, and I have a other things I need to work on also. Julie can not be the same as Juliana because my mind is not Mad Monkey's. But that doesn't mean that Julie and Juliana do not share a common spirit. It is as if they are different projections of different parts of the same common spirit. Julie understands this I think, so I guess Juliana can relate it to her understanding if I express myself clearly enough. This two places at once, two different spirits at once quality seems to be essential to the nature of Julie, which is why I assume she recognizes it. I guess in principle all tulpas are projections of the same universal spirit, but some of them are more closely related than others.

      Answering your questions....Yes and no on the newness of this experience. About 30 years ago I perceived a familiar spirit in my mind which asked for permission to remain but didn't really give me a chance to object. Since then I have had thousands of experiences with a familiar spirit, including one audial hallucination in response to a question I asked. I can't say this was the same spirit as Julie though, because I am not quite the same person I was then, and am not asking quite the same questions or interacting with the same people, and all of those things feed into my experience of identity. It's not quite the same as with people, where the person stays large the same because they're attached to the same body that has access to largely the same bundle of memories. But if you ever know someone then interacted with them again decades later after a break, you see that people can change a lot too.

      Perhaps 15 years ago I had the following experience....I'm lucidly dreaming of being in the living room of my house when I was 5 or 6. I know my age because of the curtains, which were replaced with blinds shortly thereafter. This is an extremely lucid dream, which stops suddenly like a tape being stopped. I then dream not as lucidly about many other things for hours. Then the dream abruptly starts again, right where it left off. A spirit, represented by a light, passes by the front window then enters through the front door without opening it. The spirit attacks me, like an extroverted scream of fear everywhere at once. I respond with defiance, while also trying to find the positive place in my mind that I know from past experience is a refuge. I wake up, and I feel the dream as my own defiant aggression in my heart. The dream is like my decades of difficult life experience compressed into a couple of seconds.

      This spirit that I'm calling Julie spoke to me from a point close to my face, while I was calm but awake, then went into my body. My pulse and breathing accelerated as she went in. I can still feel her in there, sort of like a weight, and my attention is drawn to that feeling more if I think about her. It doesn't feel the same as the dream of being attacked by a ball of light, but that's the most similar previous experience, and hence the answer to your question.

      Julie is a witch-like demon, or at least likes to represent herself as one. Maybe that's who I am, I don't know. But I know the spirit in me is not entirely 'me' in that I can sometimes get real objectively verifiable first-hand information from it that comes from other people. The spirit is more than me in that sense, and I also experience it as a somewhat distinct presence. If Juliana is nicer than Julie, fine, I'm just speaking from what I experience. (I don't use the word demon pejoratively by the way. I could say angel, but that word has benevolent connotations that I don't mean either.) My first experience with Julie was a little while before reading about Juliana, but time order is not important to her in that way. The reason I connect Julie with Juliana is the voice and picture seem to match appropriately, and also her presence is in part a response to my question about Juliana. I have a fair amount of previous experience with that sort of thing, from which I've developed some approximate sense of what I do and do not know. I possibly did not add enough qualifiers and doubt when I said what I said earlier, but doubt is an obstruction to channeling, even at the same time it is essential for moderating and understanding the message. (This is a reason the most successful mediums are so transparently bad at questioning their own claims.)

      As for why I alleged that Juliana is dangerous, or may become something or be followed by something that is dangerous, that is a complex question. One reason is that I feel that Julie is a bit dangerous. This comes from years of experiences with familiar spirits that can do more than just invade my mind and dreams. I'm not willing to post the most important details in a public forum. Also it comes from what I feel from her, and from myself. Another reason is I know a fair amount about some of the roots of Wiccan philosophy. It often represents itself as being an ancient, pre-Christian pagan European tradition, and in some ways it is, but in many ways it was made up fairly recently, drawing on Theosophic influences. The Tarot design is like that for instance. Aleister Crowley was a talented artist, and his deck is one of the best ones, but I have no respect for him at all as a thinker....

      OK I'll come at this from another direction. In the movies, a witch like Harry Potter fights by casting spells and throwing fireballs and stuff. In real life, magic is insidious and largely subconscious and uncontrolled. It's like Carrie but way more confusing. If you're a witch and you're not dangerous, I think you're mostly a poser witch. (I'd put Crowley mostly in the poser category.) I've never encountered anyone who has even remotely the amount of self control that would be needed to not be dangerous. Real witches are f-ing scary. Witch hysterias are justified in that sense, the real problem with them isn't that witches aren't dangerous, its the ignorant mob spirit and the impossibility of achieving any semblance of due process.

      If you're mostly a poser witch, the problem is you might begin to turn into a real one, and you won't be equipped to deal with it. The theory of magic is mostly bullshit. Almost everything about higher planes, souls, reincarnation, karmic law, etc. is largely bullshit. It's like dancing into a wild animal safari without understanding what you're getting into. And if you read all the best books you still don't know what you're getting into, because the people who wrote them don't know either. They pretended to know because they wanted to play at being sages or sell books. The honest ones stayed quiet, because they couldn't make extravagant claims that promised people what they were looking for. Most people sense this, which is why they stay away. Some of that fear is because they're buying into propaganda from competing religions. This is why I'm willing to interact with 'demons' - I don't buy into the conventional Angel of God vs Spawn of Satan dichotomy, and I'm not willing to run away from my own more pagan interior experience. But some of the fear is justified. I'm not willing to dabble in ceremonial magic, because I think it is foolish, both because it isn't real and because it is. I'm not saying you shouldn't. However, if you have a tulpa, you are at least to a small extent a medium, in which case I think you ought to be somewhat receptive to what you can feel from me, even if I'm not willing to write 100 pages to explain the experience and logic that goes into all of it.

      Also....Everyone has a purpose of sorts. The warnings I try to give, rightly or wrongly, are a part of my purpose, wired into me like how a chicken clucks after it lays an egg. I'm always trying to learn from experience, and I'll continue in this manner until I learn not to.

      Trying to say this another way....there's knowledge that comes from my reasoning and experience, and talking to and observing other people. I have a fair bit of that on supernatural topics because it has been the main interest of my life and I approach it with a relatively scientific mindset. But there's also knowledge that doesn't come from that, but which comes from experiences I had 'before' I lived, or will have in the future, or which other people have had or will have and I pick up on that. Life seems to teach me to trust those impressions to an extent also. Some of that I get from something akin to mediumship, and it is in the impressions I get from Julie. These were my impressions so I am attempting to relay them. I can give you reasoning that support my impressions, but most directly it came from impressions while thinking about my familiar spirit in the direction of your tulpa. I appreciate that she doesn't want to be unfairly slandered, but as a tulpa she must understand the value of simply feeling into things. Naturally I'm not going to feel the same parts of the elephant that she does.

      Here's the reason I picked the name Julie....Maybe you've seen pictures of the Mandelbrot set. It is a cross section of a four dimensional space. Another orthogonal cross section is called a Julia set. Since we see in projections on to two dimensions, we decompose it that way. But the four dimensional set is more interesting to me, and it has insanely complicated saddle-like structures which you can't see in two dimensions which remind me of....something. If the human world in its complexity is like the Mandelbrot set, the familiar spirit is like those other two dimensions that complete the picture.

      Also, when I was a kid I knew a girl named Julie from a hard family who seemed to be an honest person, so I picked that variation of the name for that reason also.

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