Thread: LaBerge's claims.

well the guy isnt describing a obe when he says do that test if u look at a book then look back and its diffrent first thing is if its an obe how are you picking up a book? thats a physical item second thing is why would you pick up a book in a obe?

Exactly. I've never heard of anyone affecting material objects in the AP.

Originally posted by evancho
well the guy isnt describing a obe when he says do that test *if u look at a book then look back and its diffrent first thing is if its an obe how are you picking up a book? thats a physical item second thing is why would you pick up a book in a obe?

That's not the point, you could simply read text without touching it.

Now i'm not very well-versed on the subject of APs and OBEs, but I do know enough to know that they aren't supposed to be dreams; you should be able to actually see real life stuff, your consciousness would actually be out of your body and (but not necessarily) in this "real world".

So you'd be able to look at an open book, and see its text, if I understand correctly.

So if that is the case, why would text act weird like that, if it is really there and you are really seeing it?

too put it simply it wouldnt the guy has never had an obe if that is what he thinks he probably had the most vivid lucid dream of his life and thought it was an obe

Erm I seriously doubt that. This guy has been studying this type of stuff for many years, do you even know who I'm talking about?

I'm not trying to say that it's not real; on the contrary, I believe it is, but I'd like LaBerge's claims answered.

Maybe what he is trying to say is that OBEs don't exist and he is just trying to say it nicely.

That is precisely what he is saying.
He claims that they don't exist; what you experience is simply a LD with a body that your mind makes up (so you can see your physical body), in a world that is all in your head, that may closely mimic the real one.

If you have EWLD, you can read it for yourself near the end of chapter four.

I assumed that as the book has been out for ages, those who believe in AP or OBE should have come up with a rebuttal.

I have the book. I find it and the construct of Lucid Dreaming very egotistical. In that frame of mind, I doubt that you would experience AP without ruining it by telling yourself that you created it.

Originally posted by _omni_
LaBerge claims that AP is simply LDing, and as proof he offers "Look at some text, look away and look back again".
Presumably, the text will have changed. If that is the case, does anyone know why, if you are really looking at real text, it will change?

What are the accepted rebuttals (there must be some) to this claim?

Maybe because you wouldn't be looking through your physical eyes. Maybe LaBerge never had an OBE or he did but it wasn't very clear as he only tried once or twice. It's supposed to be possible to go to parallel universes, different dimensions etc. etc. so maybe he experienced that. I'm just speculating as I've never had an OBE.

AP (Astral Projection) = not on the physical plane, so you can't really verify things.
EP (Ethereal Projection) = practically on the physical plane, but not actually on it, it's like a close replica.
RTZ (Real Time Zone) OBE = you should see the physical real-time as it is.

I've had 1 AP, 4 EPs, and I think 1 RTZ (it was really early morning so there was nothing to verify).

So, depending on what type of OBE you have... (usually EPs are the most common I believe, when you first exit your body you are having an EP, which can turn into an AP).

LaBerge needs to explain why this happens to people all over the world, who have no prior knowledge of the event, and all describe in strikingly similar detail.

I've have 2 LD of having OBEs as well, but they failed to follow in some way what the usual OBE induced from SP feels like.

I can't speak to this from personal expereince having just joined the site yesterday. Nonetheless as an impartial third party who has read the thread I think I may be able to add a little something.

If you believe in AP's and OBE's etc. then you'd have to disagree with LaBerge but what he has done here at the very least is given you what sounds like a pretty good method with which could help you distinguish the difference between a very lucid dream and an OBE.

If OBE's are real then I might suggest leaving out the front page of an old newspaper everynight before you go to bed. If you think you are experiencing an OBE that night go to the newspaper and quickly glance at the date. Look away and look back at the date. It should be the same date and when you wake when you check the date it should be the same date of the newspaper you left out. For this to work you would probably need several newspapers and also need to not look at which one you put out before going to bed. If you do this and the date is the same then I'd say you've very nearly proven (at the very least to yourself) that OBE's are real. If it is differen't then you are probably lucid dreaming but unlike the first scenario because of the nature of lucid dreams this is by no means substantial evidence to disprove OBE's.

you want bona fide proof which has already been done on the sci fi channel

first setup a room many miles away and cataloge everything in it
then have a person obe but before he does tell him to go to the adress and look at the items
then if he can remember the items it must be a real obe method one done on the sci fi channel the guy did it perfectly he missed a couple but thats fine


next method have 2 people obe and meet at a mutual location then if they go back to there bodys and both have the same version of effects bam proof of obe

Yea that sounds pretty concrete but there are ways to fake that it is tv afterall. I think the only way you can really know for sure is to make up your own test and experience it for yourself.

well yah but the guy says he wants answers and isee peope giving him answers but he doesnt seem to like them. and ya it could be hoax

I must agree with LaBerge, as I was fascinated with the subject and conducted many tests to see whether I'm having an OBE or just a LD that started at my bed. I used a couple simple experiments - during night experience I looked around the room and noticed differences: seeing extra exits, walls in wrong places or other messed up stuff was obviously in favor of it being a LD.
For early morning experiences I went outside and attempted to read a licence plate on a car. The intention was to "wake up" after I got the licence plate and verify it. However I never got a legitimate licence plate in correct format (mostly just a bunch of numbers).


If you want a rebuttal to the LaBerge's claim, you should note that while "out of body" you would not have the same awareness as you do while being awake. Your vision may not be finely tuned enough and your mind may be clouded by hormones. Think about it this way - you are using parts of your mind/brain that are supposed to be asleep. All of the sudden you activate them and ask for correct output, this is very unlikely. Seeing during an OBE may involve different parts of your mind, the ones that even lucid dreamers dont use often... Not a very solid rebuttal, isnt it? A lot of ifs and may bes.

Originally posted by evancho
well yah but the guy says he wants answers and isee peope giving him answers but he doesnt seem to like them. and ya it could be hoax

"I don't seem to like them" because instead of answers, I get "LaBerge probably never this and that...".
LaBerge certainly knows more about it than you could hope to know, so I take his doubts seriously.

So far the best and most relevant answer has been Ev's.

Personally,

It seems that LaBerge proved that anyone can learn to LD. That was his chosen field of study and I think he is absolutely correct. He didn't dedicate nearly the amount of time to researching AP's and OBE's as he did to LD's.

I am not saying that they do or don't exist, but I am saying that OBE's may not be the same function as LD'ing. Everyone may not be able to do them. Or it may take an entirely different method of training. From what I have read, OBE's seem to be more of a psychic phenomena whereas LD's are simply retaining consciousness while you sleep. To me they seem like VERY different things.

I also don't think that AP'ing can be lumped in with OBE's. I don't think that you are doing much of an Astral Projection, if you are just projecting yourself into the kitchen to look at the paper. I personally have never considered anything in my house to be part of the astral plane.

With the CIA's remote viewing programs from the past, I would say that there may be a bit of credibility to remote viewing (OBE). I doubt that just anyone can do it though.

I would guess that AP can be learned and it can be done using similar methods to learning to LD. I would suppose that it would take a greater degree of control and less ego. But I would guess that it could be learned and I don't dismiss it's possibility.

So, I guess I am saying.... I think that LaBerge is certainly the expert on LD'ing. But that is his speciality. I don't know if his expirements necessarily disprove AP's and OBE's.

Just my $.02

LaBerge has done a lot of work in this field and perhaps in the area of lucid dreaming is very knowledgable.

Dreaming itself, tho, is such a huge area and there are so many different kinds of dreams. I have been having OOBEs and lucid dreams at least as far back as my early teens - which means that I have 50 years of experience with them.

My experience is that they are very different. When I am having an OOBE, I can visit a person and be seen by them. My experience has been that I can lower my vibrations and raise my vibrations such that I can lower my vibrations far enough that I cannot even go through a wall. When I raise my vibrations I can easily go through a wall. I can pass my hand and arm through the wall and feel the tingly feeling as it passes through my hand and arm. I love that feeling. It is in the lowering of the vibrations to the level that I can't pass through the wall that I have been able to be seen by people in the physical. (I try not to do this anymore because it scares people - they don't understand and sometimes think that you have died and are appearing to them as a ghost)

Relative to the issue of a rebuttal - and satisfying an individual person about OOBEs and lucid dreams. I used to teach classes on what I called metaphysics and in some of those classes I taught how to have OOBEs. My observation was that once a person had had an OOBE, there were no more questions. Until they had had one, they were not satisfied.

^ Thank you to the two posters above.

@jmacmanus: Very impressive. This may be off topic, but are there certain books you'd recommend on that subject (OBEs (how to achieve them)), seeing as you've taught the subject?
I have Astral Dynamics and Mastering Astral Projection as they were highly recommended, but haven't read them yet.

OBE and lucid dream are different things.

Lucid dream is rather common, most of you here have had one. A dream is created by the physical mind. In these dreams you remain yourself. You know you are merely imaginating, and that's all, though everything looks very real

An out of body experience is when your soul leaves your body. I'm not sure it is possible unless you are dieing. Even if it is possible it will be very hard to induce it and would require enourmous practice. Many of these "Obe's" are simply lucid dreams but I cannot say that all are. I simply do not know.

OBE and lucid dream are different things.

Lucid dream is rather common, most of you here have had one. A dream is created by the physical mind. In these dreams you remain yourself. You know you are merely imaginating, and that's all, though everything looks very real

An out of body experience is when your soul leaves your body. I'm not sure it is possible unless you are dieing. Even if it is possible it will be very hard to induce it and would require enourmous practice. Many of these "Obe's" are simply lucid dreams but I cannot say that all are. I simply do not know.

Alright, here goes:

Assuming, for the sake of arguement, that APing is real, there are two possible scenarios:

1. An LD that appears to be an OBE/AP/what have you

2. An actual OBE/AP/what have you

Now, if LaBerge has a #1, does a reality check, proves it is a dream, then all he has proven is that lucid dreaming exists and it can mimic APing. He has not disproven APing.

If one has a #2 and can do several rc's without proving it is a dream, that is subjective proof of AP. However, there is no widespread proof of this to date.


IN SUMMATION: All LaBerge has proven by suggesting an APer will fail reality checks is that LDs can imitate OBE's. He has done NOTHING to disprove the possibility of #2.

I've never had an OBE but Im gonna have to disagree with LaBerge. A LOT of people have had an outer body experience where they saw real life - real time events that they could not have seen were they simply just dreaming.

if you are willing you can visit this site
http://www.nderf.org/

NDE - or Near Death Experience. You might have to dig around, but there are some stories where patients have watched what their doctors did, what went wrong on the table or were able to talk about other parts of the hospital - when there was no possible way they could have visited those parts of the hospital on their death bed. And there was no possible way they could have KNOWN what was going on during their horrific operations either since they were under.

A lot of people discredit NDEs as being real. I say, it will EVENTUALLY happen to MOST of us. Don't knock down the experience just becuase you've never almost died

The site also has some OBEs and ADCs. This experience is fun!
http://www.oberf.org/paul_w's_obe.htm

It's basically about a guy on an OBE trip, and he visits his son in the car. The next thing he knows water splashes violently all over his sons car. The man freaks out, fearing his son might have drove off the bridge! When he wakes up from his OBE, he finds out - his son went for a car wash.

I have leaned toward LaBerge's theory ever since I started reading about OBE's on this site. Lucid dreams can seem every bit as real as reality, except often very strangely different. I haven't seen good evidence that OBE's are anything more than a self-induced trance experience. I am not slamming my mind shut to the possibility, but it is a hard pill for me to swallow. It seems that somebody by now, with the media and technology we have in this age, would have proven the reality of actually leaving the body under intense scientific analysis in a laboratory. It would be very easy to prove REPEATEDLY, and the repeated proving of it would be the biggest news story in history. Why has that not happened?

I've given my own frail attempts at OBE several times in the past few months. I did go into a trance state where my thoughts moved in the direction of full blown hallucinations, but I never quite made it over the hump. I was stuck in a place where my thoughts were more like visuals, but I could still tell that it was only my mind that I was exploring. One time, I got about 75% of the way to the point where what I was thinking looked like full blown reality. On one occasion, I percieved myself as a shadow person half way out of my body. Another time, I was a shadow person sitting in my across the street neighbor's porch chair. I just never lost complete touch with the fact that what I was seeing wasn't real. It was still really cool, and I plan on doing it a lot more. If I can get to the point of being convinced that I have really left my body, I will be sure to talk about it here. So far for me, everything seems to point to OBE experience as a visually vivid exploration of the imagination, like a dream.